A Special Burden - Craig Wilson

I've heard of a lot of special needs parents who have been asked to leave churches because their you know kids are not able to integrate into the ministry and the ministries don't know how to handle it or what to do and so you know they're looking at it I don't think their intent is to exclude but they're looking at their entire ministry and the kids that they have and they just get so appointed and go we don't know how to handle this and so families who leave and then they go to another church and another church and another church and I carry a burden for that you know my name is Craig Wilson I am a 30-year veteran of children's and family ministry I love pasturing kids and those who leave them and this is my faithfully story welcome to faithfully stories the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life join us as we delve into their challenges moments of encouragement and answered prayers the Faithfully Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithfully an online community committed to empowering church leaders pastors staff and volunteers learn more at Faithfully.co get ready to be uplifted and inspired as we unveil the heart of faith through stories from the front lines of ministry on the Faithfully Stories podcast could you share your fifth journey with us yeah so for me I did not grow up in the church I was a product of divorce family very young early age my mother was married twice and divorced twice and so I've met a lot of moving around and at fifth grade I moved to a different area new geography new town and believe it or not there was a friend of mine who's still a great friend today who at that young age had the wherewithal an understanding that he was supposed to fulfill the great commission and one of his ways of doing that was just simply by inviting this new kid in his neighborhood to go to church with him and I was foreign to me I outside of a couple of brief stints in a Catholic church where you know I was just disappointed that I didn't get that yummy wafer they were passing out to everybody I hadn't had much experience in church and so I went and I can remember vividly I literally spilled an entire communion tray of grape juice on white pants my first time in a church and my my friend thought oh gosh he's never coming back you know but what superseded that was such a profound sense even at that age of community and family that I was missing in my own family and it became a haven for me and that's where my faith journey started and then a couple years later at the summer camp with my friend who invited me asking me if he won't want to be to walk if he if I wanted him to walk down with me to surrender my life to Jesus holy and and that's where that's where it began this was in fifth grade fifth grade yeah fifth grade is when he invited me seventh grade was the camp so from fifth grade I was attending the church fairly regularly plugging into the community of children's church there in middle school and it was middle school seventh grade that I gave my life fully over the Lord at a Christian camp that we attended yeah what was your understanding for you to like want to keep your life to Jesus that's up great yeah I think like I mentioned before that deep sense of family and community and relationship was an important starting point for me and but that alone isn't enough right because you can find some good community and other other places and clubs and organizations but what that was for me at that time in the leaders the leaders that we had who had a deep sense of care for my being how I was doing who I was becoming we were fortunate at that church to have the same leaders traveled with us from many of them from junior high state with the group of kids all the ways who we graduated I think there I think I had the same ones through middle school and then a set of new ones at high school level and those ones stayed with us to four years you know that was very impressionable upon me but of course out of that then came conversations about faith and who Jesus was and me as a sinner and my need to surrender to him so for me it made sense you know and I think for me also at that age lacking a father figure in my life you know God's father was fairly impactful on me as well yeah I think that's been reoccurring in these podcasts is like stability either in the home or in the church and you need at least one but if you don't have either that's kind of a disaster ideally you want both yeah yeah were you able to process what was happening with like your mom and the relationships and also like did you have a relationship with your dad or was he just no my dad like I said my mom was married twice divorce twice when I was a young age so my my real father was out of my life by maybe two years old you know which I wouldn't have much memory or recollection of him I kind of have like a faint memory of seeing him at like first or second grade and then for a weekend in seventh grade and then that that was it so just completely absent and then you know my stepfather I have memories of him in my time that my mother was married to him but I would say he was out of my life after that marriage ended as well so so I really I really didn't you know and so within the church youth group and the godly men who did have families were the ones that I spent most of my time there and you know they included me and father son activities and they were checking in on me when I was goofing around in school and deciding I didn't want to go to school and and you know they kind of take me to lunch and be that fatherly figure even the tough part of like hey Craig what what do you do it you know you got you got to be better than that you can do this you know so I had a lot of support surgically from the men that were involved in the youth group there which was was phenomenal amazing did you ever talk to your mom about all that because for me my parents divorced but I was like way older but I remember when I was younger I would just ask my mom like how did you guys even meet in like why are you guys together like the joke between me and her was like god only brought them together to have me right you know like it's a narcissistic viewpoint but for you like and it took a really long time for me to forgive my mom and I know that sounds like to some people like ridiculous but like I harbored this thing of like I kind of blamed her not because of what my dad did but just for staying with him so like for you like I can't even imagine what that's like and how would you even approach the conversation yeah you know Daniels it's interesting I think every journey is different and every person's journey in that situation is different I will say this to paint kind of a parallel experience so my my good friend the one who invited me to church also was in a single mother household and so for me with my father out of my life early on I would see kind of you don't know what you don't know and so when people say do you miss that you know did you desire that relationship well I didn't know what a relationship of father was like because I didn't experience so there was no loss of that you know and I think that early on because I had when it was crucial I think when you hit that preteen in middle school you know where life becomes you know you start turning to peer pressure and you know things start to unravel a little bit having those key mentor figures in your life is important and I had that so cut to my friend whose dad you know they were divorced but his dad was kind of in and out of his life and I watched the tension and turmoil of that because his dad was constantly making promises that he didn't follow through on and didn't keep and and the mind games and tension between the mom and the dad that created more I believe emotional damage and and difficulty in his life and so I look at my situation and I feel it was it was better and even older you know people would ask and even my wife would ask you know do you think you'll go look for your father your father will come looking for you at any time and I didn't have a I didn't have a desire to do that because because I didn't have a relationship with him when I have my own kids these profound questions arise in your heart when you have a kid and your your attention to that just this life form that you know you have this just unbelievable love for you know and unconditional love for you have these questions of like gosh how could somebody you know just abandon you know family know they have a son and a daughter out there and not have any contact and you know there could be a million reasons for it you know I think later in my life wasn't a later in my life with when I was an adult I was able to have those conversations with my mom about their relationship and you find out a lot of it you know he was alcoholic and couldn't function in life and so at that point I the forgiveness is I can deal with knowing that as an alcoholic couldn't function normally process normally grieve normally in the way to understand that you know I could have a sense of okay it's the disease and the issue of alcoholism so there's a level of I didn't I didn't have a sense that I had to forgive him you know for things I just had that wonderment of like you know gosh how could somebody know I got having my own kid I couldn't imagine that but my journey and my my path is different so so yeah so I think for me again you don't know what you don't know so not having that father figure in my life I didn't grieve the loss of something that I never had but I had an incredible community in in my church you know there was you know one man in particular that at my wedding I gave him the seat of honor where my father would sit for my wedding you know because of his impact on my life thank you for that that's actually our refreshing perspective that I didn't even have insight to so how did you get into pastoring yeah I was kind of I think kind of like Jonah trying to run away from it a bit I growing up my my plans for life were entertainment industry I was pretty much interested in self-glorification of I want to be famous I want to be actor singer something in the spotlight and I followed after those dreams and those things and the church I was at was back in the day heavily involved in a lot of arts and entertainment stuff they would do a lot of theater in the community at the church for the community Broadway shows and things like that so as fortunate to be around arts and entertainment even within the church context and so at about gosh I think at about 20 years old I was pretty much just going to community college and taking mostly acting in music classes and our music director at the time he said hey I'm starting a kids program on Sunday nights and it's going to be kind of like think making mouse club but with Bible based lessons in it there's going to be dancing singing acting funny characters all that stuff and he asked me to do it and I really had no interest I had no interest in working with kids and he came back and asked me another time said I really need guys I have a lot of girls interested and these some more guys I think I told him no three four times you know and then he finally just begged and pleaded and I said okay I'll do it as a favor to you and I got into it and oh my gosh I was just I was hooked it was very revealing for me that was I say I'm called to be a children's pastor you know and I get weird looks about that sometimes so I'm 54 and I still feel effective in children's ministry and people say are you gonna bump up to family pastor you're gonna bump up to lead pastor someday and I don't believe that's my calling and so doing that it was like this culmination of God taking everything that I was passionate about and the things that I was talented in and he was showing me a better purpose for them and I can to this day remember Rachel Stewart kindergarten kid who at one of the early programs that we did just coming and wrapping her arms around me I was I used to sometimes get emotional so thinking about this because it's just so vivid you know all these years later but wrapping her arms around me and saying thank you for making learning about Jesus so much fun and I was just it was just like boom that's it that's it and so I was doing that program and then a few months into it the director who was doing all the creative elements of it had moved out of state and so the children's pastor there asked me if I would take that over and I started an internship my didn't go to school and go to Bible call I went to Bible college later and would take some courses and things but it wasn't my plan but I was mentored by him for six years which was the best experience because I had the freedom to risk and fail with a safety net and a lot of leaders today get an ministry without a safety net and they get burned once or twice and then they're done and they're out and so I had an incredible safety net to risk and fail and have somebody take the heat when I would mess up and and pick me back up and put me back into the arena to keep going at it and so and after about six years and I was you know handed the keys hey this is your ministry now and so and here here I am still engaged in children's and family ministry all these years later yeah like I when I applied for the children's role at my most previous church I had no interest but it was like the only thing I was available so I was just like flying everywhere and then when I got it yeah there were just rough moments but overall looking back children's is a lot of fun because that's all they care about having fun but if you can make like the gospel fun and Jesus fun yeah it was the the best ministry years of my life I can honestly say I would say what's the first what's the first question usually a parent asks when they pick up your kid from church did you have fun today when they pick up when when I want a parent pick up a kid from church the first question they ask usually is did you have fun today it's not you know occasionally you'll get the parent go what did you learn today tell me the Bible verse you remember as today but usually the first question is did you have fun today why fun is fun is a value are we teaching the Bible of course we are but it needs to be fun you know adults they're not coming if you don't have donuts and coffee Starbucks coffee out in the lobby you know that's their fun right kids kids aren't coming if it's not fun you know so it needs to be fun no but that's kind of a shame because something I've been like really learning more and more recently is like the childlike heartiness right but also we can also have a childlikeness in the mind which is just curiosity and like children are always curious and I'm curious where along the way for us as Christians we lose that and then we get so caught up in like this is right this is wrong this is what I know and then we start debating about what we know rather than like oh how can you take that and use your imagination to see like the goodness of God do you know what I mean yeah yeah I agree I think you know sometimes we just yeah somewhere along the line we over complicate things you know I don't know if we adultize them as a word but if it isn't I just made a new word adultize hashtag adultize get the website going you know but we do and and I think that there's a need to come to Jesus with that childlike faith and I think even within that is that fun I you know when you think about like I think about like a Pixar movies and cartoons and what's great about those is there's it kind of blends this line between you know it still captures it captures kids but it still captures the adult heart it has that sensibility and I think there's a place for that in in church ministry I think there's a place to simplify you know we do a we do a baptism class for lack of better word for our kids when we're teaching them about why we get baptized and it's always for us a family class it's designed for parents to come with kids so we can help equip them and resource them and make them part of the process and I'd say over 30 plus years of doing children's ministry I'd be willing to guess we've baptized just as many adults as we have kids through that class because we've explained it in such a simple way and there's been a good number of parents sitting there who hadn't been baptized and just because it was explained in such a simple fun but meaningful and powerful way that a lot of parents just went oh I guess I should probably do that why haven't I done that yet you know and so I think yeah there's definitely a place to come into our faith with with the child likeness like you're saying so how do you um based on your experience integrate parents getting involved because one issue I always had was the treat children's ministry like it's a baby sitting service so drop off the kids they'll disappear they'll come back but they'll never like connect or ask questions and I'm just curious as to like yeah how do you integrate that yeah I think you know for for all the years of you know you have you know the orange philosophy you know she came into being with you know rethink group and they do a phenomenal job of the strategy and vision for that um churches overall in the last couple of decades are pushing more of this you know idea of family ministry how do we come alongside parents equip and resource them to be the primary uh the primary role in their family and I still think it's a challenge I still think that we're struggling to do it and um and I think there's a you're gonna get so many different opinions and strategies and mission and vision around this you know you have a lot now that say we quit pulling the kids out of church and do church together all the time and more or at least have them in for worship together and then split out and then you have others who say well no there's still value in splitting out because we can talk to kids and in their language and pastor them in a unique way and um you know and even you you see some healthy amount of infighting about that and that's always good discussion and even a little bit of healthy arguing helps us get better at things so I don't I don't know that I wouldn't come and say gosh I've solved that and it's amazing now have these amazing incredible engaged parents and families because you have every family is different right I mean it'll take me who's a single kid in a family that had no faith and wasn't going to church so I can't if I have that kid in my ministry I can't just say well your mom is your primary your mom and dad are your primary spiritual role model because they're not and then you have the mom and dad who are in church and maybe the mom is really on fire and dad is I you know just kind of not really engaged not walking and at that I would say Daniel is probably more prevalent than a lot of other family situations that's our dads are really just not stepping into leading their family their wives and their children spiritually and so if there's a group of people to really pour into and target I think it's it's it's men and then it can't just come from the children's ministry department it has to be a value and part of the DNA of the entire church ministry and so now that's going to be a struggle or or an effective joy depending on the church and ministry you're in you know there's a lot of times in church ministry we get silo you know working in all these ministries and even some like well my ministry is most important and minds most well how come I don't get enough attention here and this ministry has more budget and this ministry what that does is tends to isolate us and I one of my pastors uses this illustration and it probably you know he probably lifted it off of somewhere else so maybe it was his own original thought I don't know where it originated from but he was sharing with our staff he said you know sometimes we have our own ministry and you think of it as a train and I have like my my car my car is pretty unique children's ministry and then men's ministry women's ministry worship ministry he says and that's okay he says the problem is that we're also on our own individual train tracks we're all going the same place but we're getting there on our own track and so sometimes it's we're getting ahead or behind somebody and he says what I want us to do is pull all of our individual cars onto the one track and that way we're pushing and pulling each other toward the same destination because even sometimes then hey this one car is dragging a little but that's okay because the two cars behind it are pushing it and the two in front of it are pulling it and in another time that car that was struggling six months ago is now driving hard and pushing the car that's slower in front of it and I think that's a good picture of how we need to do that because something that big with family ministry and getting men engaged is going to take the entire church is going to take the youth ministry and the men's ministry and the preaching from the pulpit and the children's ministry to all believe it's important so every family is situation is different and so I think that's why it's hard but we can't throw our hands up and say well it's just not working so let's not bother and let's just do children's ministry I have to provide the resources I have to encourage parents I have to equip them I have to pray for them and with them and I have to think about the kid whose parents aren't there and so it's it's a challenge but it's one worth us you know digging our heels in and keep grinding at it I'm definitely going to steal that train analogy that's really good yeah for a long time and I it's I carry it with me everywhere I go because I think it is it is a good analogy for that and so yeah it's it's gonna take it's gonna take every ministry for the big things that are that are important and first to stop looking at you know you know what's I need we need to celebrate yeah I want to trade notes with you now so like what's been the hardest thing for you in children's ministry I think so post post COVID volunteer volunteer leader engagement it's definitely been down but overall in church engagement I think that we hit a point you know about a year ago that it's kind of like you know all right I feel like this is just my observation my experience we're kind of all watching fall 2021 to see what was going to happen because fall 2020 like we thought we were coming out of the bend with COVID and then all of a sudden kind of you know researched in areas where it did depending on where you live county shut back down and school shut back down and so when 2021 came I think there was like this hesitancy of people returning at least in the ministry areas that I were in and they were watching what was going to happen with the fall and then it seemed like okay feels like we're out of the woods or for whatever reasons wherever you stand on COVID it just seemed like all of a sudden there was a big number of people back but there's a big number of people back but not engaged in serving or we'd lost some of those people and so now you had this crowd back but you didn't have the infrastructure to minister effectively in in your children's areas at least that's one of the things I experienced so that's been a challenge and kind of trying to catch people up with training and discipling and vision casting you know get some new people you're trying to get fast tracked and so I think that maybe where you had a system if you had a system in place we're like oh you know you can't serve till you've been around the church for six months and then you're going to go through a discipleship process and training process a little bit in some ministries like are you breathing you have a pulse you love Jesus we did a background check you're good there let's go you know and so I think that's been hard for some is getting back to that you know and where you feel like okay where he quips to to handle the crowds that are coming back in as people are re-engaging so that's been one thing there I think another challenge has been another challenge has been just the change in kid demographics in regards to special needs and special needs especially around the area of like behavioral challenges you know I don't I don't I hate I always hate statistics because you know they're usually wrong you know I could and I probably am the same guy who would say oh one in six and the next time I say it one in four then one in eight but the rise of kids who are experiencing behavioral challenges or you know you have kids on the special needs spectrum is so broad right is so broad and so it requires so many different I believe the levels of expertise on how do we train and how do we how do we leave these kids well and so I think that that's a that's a growing challenge and I feel like a lot of churches are starting to do more with that but there's some some of the challenges are where you have that may need a one-on-one assistant one-on-one leader one-on-one buddy however you want to call that to be able to be included into your regular children's mystery programming which is we always say we want what's best what the parent wants and working with the kid and what's best for them you have some kids that would just go to a special needs room environment and some that can be functional within your regular ministry on Sunday morning but they might require an assistant so now when you're trying to find a leader for you know every six to eight kids and now you need you might have four or five kids in your ministry that need a one-on-one buddy so casting that vision a training kind of debunking what people think about special needs and all I couldn't do that you know and I don't understand that I'm training for that I think that's a challenge in today's children's ministry and probably one that's going to keep growing but you know there's a deep burden to minister to every child you know and so how do we do that what does that look like and it's going to require changing and approaches to things and may require expertise and kinds of staffing you know a lot of children's ministry people we don't have that kind of training and that kind of expertise so you know get a search out the resources or churches have to start maybe even putting their money where their mouth isn't saying we're going to hire somebody with special needs expertise because there's a lot of families out there that are that's their life and the joys of it and the struggles of it and how do we come alongside them and give them a home you know I've heard of a lot of special needs parents who have been asked to leave churches because their you know kids are not able to integrate into the ministry and the ministries don't know how to handle it or what to do and so you know they looking at it I don't think their intent is to exclude but they're looking at their entire ministry and the kids that they have and they just get to a point and go we don't know how to handle this and so families leave and then they go to another church and another church and another church and man I carry I carry a burden for that you know this family the divorce rate among special needs families is high they're on an island they don't have you know resources and the support that they need you know and I feel that we if we can come alongside them and do the best we can I say do the best you can with the resources you have and you might not be able to do everything but what can you do to what point do you have any advice than for people who don't have the resources where can they go to even seek out answers yeah one one is called the ministry kyi like a key key ministry dot org has a lot of free resources and training and videos and I think you can even bring some people out if you wanted to put some money into bring some experts out to do some training but they have a lot of resources and a Facebook group Facebook group page and early on when I came to the ministry in Colorado and this was you know 12 13 years ago prior to me getting there there had been a special needs ministry that was run by a volunteer who was running it as if she was getting paid like a hundred grand a year I mean she was just going all out and people were with special needs families were driving two hours to come because they had a place for their kids to belong she was doing respite nights on like Friday nights where parents could drop their kids off and go have a date night and stare at each other because special needs parents you know don't get to do that a lot she was even running special parties for siblings of special needs kids because siblings of special needs kids lose a lot of attention because of the extra attention it requires for their sibling and I so it's just running this amazing thing but before I got to that ministry she had had to move across the country because her husband's job and so that ministry just shrunk down to a very dedicated group of people who had a huge heart for it so I had no experience in it I had this group of people who had a heart and a passion for it could we do what that woman was doing? nope but could we do something? yes so I just say start somewhere you know do what you can try and come alongside a parent that's been asked to leave a church two or three times sometimes they just want to they want to sit down with you and be heard and know that I can't make promises like that we can work this out you know but I can promise that we will do everything within the resources we have to try and provide spiritual care for your child and for you guys I think just saying that sometimes goes a long way I remember a family like that that came their kid had was prone to acting out with violence and had some behavioral challenges and they brought came to our church the first time and they didn't they didn't tell anybody they just wanted to I hope it goes well because they've been asked to leave three or four churches and on that first day that kid was theirs pre-teen age fourth and fifth grade he had gotten a kid down on the ground and was kicking that kid and so when the parents came to pick him up my director who was an amazing director came and talked to the parents and as soon as she started talking to the parents you could just see their countenance drop and you just feel it probably everything in them was saying we're we're at we're gonna be asked to leave and my director said hey we're sorry that this happened today is there anything we can know that would help us create an environment where I care my kids' names just say Johnny can be here and oh my gosh the relief and and that mom just bawling because someone was just saying I'm willing weren't promising but what can we do and you know and there's sometimes in situations where we go we've exhausted everything we can we've tried a buddy and there's still issue we've had you guys join class and there come sometimes where you have to say and we have to think about everybody and we don't have the resources to do this but is you know all right if we can't do this can we do this you know and I think just that effort you know goes a long way I used to tell our special needs parents that would leave I go I say hey you know what if you guys haven't been able to be on a date together in a while I go ditching church and going to brunch and staring at each other for two hours might be the best worship for you this morning so if you want to do that just let us know that's where you'll be so we can get a hold of you and I think just that commitment to say we care goes a long way and then do what you can you know I don't I'm in a small church now again I don't have the resources for a large special needs ministry I don't have a director but there's something we can do to to help out I'm so glad you said all of that because I feel like we give up too easily and God really just cares if we have a willing heart right and a spirit that just says hey doesn't matter if we fail the hundred times we trust in a God that provides and so we're going to keep trying just so that like people understand that they're loved even when things go crazy you know and I think the families appreciate that and even that what you said about like skipping church and like going on a brunch that's like sounds so blasphemous but I realize if deep down in your heart you can honestly say because of what I've just experienced it's worth it and it's worth it because it helps me understand the goodness of God that's worship right yeah yeah you can go to a church and sing all the songs but still kind of feel empty right because you weren't connecting or you can have this like magnificent spiritual experience on mushrooms right but it involves no other people other people right it's just this like it's just me and God is like no that's not how Christianity works it's like it's all of us you know yeah and something that I learned you know in the past is that no matter how big the problem is if you have enough people willing to work together you can always come up with a solution and like you were saying like the problem happens when I feel like I have to be the one that finds that the ultimate solution or the silver bullet rather than okay what can we all do to contribute a little bit to make this thing work and yeah you don't know who's sitting in your church right now that's never once thought about helping with special needs but you presented a simple low bar opportunity and they jumped in and just like God captured my heart and passion for kids ministry somebody might just light somebody on fire for special needs and they might take that ministry to another level that person could be sitting in your ministry right now you know and so yeah start start somewhere and and then let let God draw the people to it and the church I'm at right now has an incredible ministry to special needs adults and so they have that value and of just there's been some people that have had a heart for that but what's missing there is some support for special needs kids so it's interesting you know that but that's kind of where God has called them for these years all right well guess we have this how great would it be if we can start building you know special needs ministry from the young age and then as if they're part of our church through the whole church they because that's what happens a lot of times too is it the special needs gets relegated to children's ministry and then junior high hits and your youth ministry is not doing anything about it and or you know so there's not that team approach and team effort and so that's another one of those things how do we get everybody on the same if we care about special needs families we care about them from from birth to adulthood you know and what does that look like and so and there there's lots of things you can do we used to have a guy come to our church who has special needs daughter and he's a financial planner retired one so he's not doing it to get your business but he comes and does free seminars for special needs families on how to plan financially because it's different and what happens if you both you and your wife die what happens if your kid needs full-time care can't you know do you know again the spectrum is so different if kids are functional and can work and have them on apartment independent some need to be in home and community with others and he would just come we would do that seminar Daniel and there'd be a hundred people there and maybe only 20 of them were from our church and he's just telling them all this stuff they don't know about you need to start with your county because there's money available to you and if you but you got to start it at 10 years old so you get it by the time he's 18 and their jaws are just dropping well there was an incredible outreach opportunity for people in your community to know that there's a church that cares about my family why would you do this seminar for free and helping us with that there's so many opportunities there and so allow God to allow the people in your church to dream of how they could help because it's not always how we think you know is the best way to do it other people have different ideas that God's giving them on how to best minister to groups of people the beauty of family is that when one person is affected the whole family is affected right and oftentimes in the western world we're so like surgical of like oh it just helped the kid but like no you don't realize helping the kid helps a family right but if you get the family involved with the whole like CPA thing to do yeah offering services just so that the entire family is involved and the understand there's a support system yeah that's awesome yeah I never really thought of it that way too so I'm not saying all of this because I knew it I'm just like oh like everything you're saying is like God is like putting all the legal pieces and like family how did your childhood growing up affect you as a father yeah well I think I alluded to it a little bit earlier in the sense that like you know having not having a father figure in my life you know that was my blood father but having you know mentors and people in my life helped shape who I am but I think also just knowing having that later in life sense of like you know that wonderment of how somebody could leave you know kids behind you know it changes your perspective on how you know how you look at your own kids and your engagement level and you know it's a challenge for everybody time time is the biggest challenge for all of us and ministry is challenging ministry is time eating how do you how do you as a father whose job is to essentially play with kids you know I'm tired of playing with kids I'm too tired to come home and play with my own kids I've man I had those moments you know where I you know I used to run a Wednesday night program with back in the days when midweek was thriving I know it's still thriving for some churches but in the demographics that I've ministered to sports rule you know and so midweek kids aren't at church anymore they're on the sports field but back in the day we had a preteen ministry of fifth and sixth grade kids and we ran up to 150 kids sometimes on a Wednesday night fifth and sixth graders and you know it's amazing but it's like sucked everything out of me you know and then you get home and you just you just want to like you know you just you don't want any questions you don't want me because you just need to kind of just unwind from that and I'm extreme extrovert but when I get it all out then I just need to kind of retreat and I introvert and so yeah you know coming home and then like not having not having energy you know for your own kids that's a terrible thing you know so like all parents and dads do that moms do that they're working and sometimes you got to dig deep because it is it is fast you know they all the things they told you were true you blink and they grow up I have a 25 year old and a 21 year you know and gosh I can look back and beat myself up you know about some times where I guide would I man I wish I would have just you know engaged a little more here engaged a little more here so I do a lot of speaking for camps kids camps and I always try to take at least one kid with me if I win away so that I wasn't just away from family and my kids have some great memories of you know being at camp and then that's almost like they're getting free camp you know they get to engage in play and the church leaders the camp leaders would always you know just let them be a camper you know the weeks are there so they had that spiritual influence and impact but they were with me and got to see what their dad was doing you know so that was important so I've had I've had the freedom to do those kind of things but ministry you know does have its challenges depending on the ministry environment you're in how much you're working and then how much you can be away from family yeah there's a saying the days are long but the years are short and that's so true yeah yeah for sure yeah we're all a product of our experiences you know and I am you know I friend say all of us are smarter than one of us and like I am gosh I am a product of the people that I've been under I've been just very fortunate to work under mentors and leaders and like I everything I am talking about is just from experiences that I got to be in part of and and and sure within that I able to add I think how God has gifted me and wired me but it doesn't start with me I know there are people there's great I have an entrepreneurial heart but there's some people that God gifts to just sit and create from nothing you know and I just am so much better for me when somebody spit something out and then I go oh you know and can work from that and and build upon that and and so that's I'm a product of that I'm a product of the mentoring and the coaching and the people pouring into me and so my favorite thing is to all right how do I especially now I'm 54 you know 30 plus years in ministry and this season what God is showing me I believe and what is God is opening the doors for me to do is to pour that back into other leaders who are newer and growing and even at 54 I've and I talk to you know I talk to young children's ministry people it maybe came to me for some advice and I'm just they're writing down everything they're saying and I'm like this is brilliant this is amazing hey you're gosh you know so it's it's learning from each other you know and pouring into each other that's what story does that's what community does so my experiences are what has shaped me it's it's not I don't consider myself a prolific leader I consider myself to be unfortunate to be in the environments that I've been in and and rub shoulders with the people that God's allowed me to rub shoulders with what is the fondest memory you have from childhood oh gosh fondest memory from childhood that's an interesting question even like you know I have you know we're going through the old buckets of pictures and things like that and realize that there's really not even any pictures of me younger than like fourth or fifth grade you know so I think my fondest from childhood are my family was fairly small because of just the divorce and it's having one side so some of my fondest memories were times at my grandmother's house because my mom was a single mom so I spent a lot of time there in her kitchen there's just there's things there's things that are so tangible to me today like my grandmother the only soda she would ever have is a squirt soda right and if to this day I could open a can of that and just a smell and the taste will put me in her living room you know what squirt it's just a soda it's a you can still buy it it's a it's like a citrus soda but you know it's like it's like an unusual soda right usually you want root beer or doctor pepper or coke but that's the only one my grandmother had and it wasn't great but if I wanted something sweet sugar is the only one I was going to have and so to this day I crack a can of that and it will put me in my grandmother's living room because we played cards and she baked with us and we just had that time and same with my great uncle you know he just had all these he's traveled the world you know and so he had all these unusual collectible items you know and things like that that was very fascinating to me to spend that time with him as a child so those are some of my fondest memories were of our small kind of tight knit family that you know no big trips or no big vacations or anything like that just that time in the homes of of my family members what's the best advice you've ever received oh the best advice I've ever received maybe I haven't got it yet what the best so far that was really helpful to you I'll give you one related to ministry and you know ministries hard it's hard now the environments in ministry the kind of leaders we have some some environments can be tough places to work there's a lot of people burning out leaving ministry and they're hurt and and I've been kicked in the teeth a few times and I remember leaving the church where I had some real hurt from leadership and I was there was even just there was just things that were happening there and I just you know my my young I reverted to my young punk rock self and just wanted to burn it all down and my coach leadership coach mentor at the time he said it's he said it's your job to protect the bride of Christ on your way out of here and and every it went against everything in my being at that time and he's and he said Craig he says I know you're hurt you're even just in what you want to do but he says your job is to protect the bride on your way out and that was some of the best ministry advice I ever had and that sticks with me and I try and impart that on people when they're leaving a tough situation where even if in your heart you're right and you're just and you've been wronged protect the bride on your way out so that's so good I'm gonna take that that might be one of the best of the time it's not easy it is not easy but it's it's it's right yeah it's just like real marriage it's gonna be hard but yeah if you don't have battle scars like did you ever grow you know yeah so yeah you always in hindsight will see even in a tough situation even in the valley even that you know how God grew you it doesn't come till later usually and then sometimes there's even some amends you might have to make and some all the branches that you probably have to extend you know but allow yourself and you will grow but on your way out protect the bride and the people in that congregation so that's why forgiveness and reconciliation is such a wild idea and it's counterintuitive to the world because it's the only thing that continues to keep people together if they forgive and reconcile and it's just anyway that's another red I don't get into that I I'm just like you like I always thought I don't have an original idea I'm not creative I need other sources but I realize no one has an original idea because we're all sponges right and so this is why words and stories are powerful because it sparks like some memory or imagination and yeah I just really believe like that just God is showing us like his mind you know in the Trinity anyway that's just another thing yeah I don't have a question yep what are you hoping for faithfully yeah I'm I'm hoping for you know look there's a lot of there's a lot of resources out there's a lot of networks and I go to different ones for different things I might go to this Facebook page because I can easily ask a question about like hey who has a great idea for first grade boys to blah blah blah blah and I'll get you know 20 people will give me ideas for free five they're trying to sell me their stuff to do it to that are just watching to see what everybody else says and so I have a place and I'm not knocking that I might have sounded a little snarky when I said that and I didn't mean that there's I have those resources to go to and I even I have resources that I you know selling and give out to people but I think for faithfully what I think may feel different is the community aspect of it and to try and dive beyond just resource mentality and sight into relationship and like you say story and iron sharpening iron when I got on I was just you know looking around and I got into your groups you know I I am in this season Daniel of where I feel gots calling me to I still want to be active in in church ministry I currently have a I'm at a friend's church helping him out and I'm doing that part time while I am trying to I'm coming on board with an organization called standing stone ministry that's primary role is to shepherd pastors that have been through stuff and going through difficult times and giving them that place to do that and I have a heart to do that for children's ministry people and family people because I think they're underserved there's always a sabbatical for lead pastor and associate pastor and worship pastor and sometimes even a youth pastor there's always a conference there's always resources and send them out and I see a lot of children's pastors having to pay for that themselves if they want it or they can't afford it and so with standing stone I I will be supported like a missionary I'll raise my support so that I can go to a children's ministry person and say are you struggling are you going through some tough things in your ministry with leadership and stuff I can come alongside you and meet with you for a time and help walk you through some things with the experiences that I've had and I want to do that specifically for children's ministry and family ministry people and so I think even faithfully can just even be an extension of that to gather like-minded people who are in that area of ministry and just hey how do we and again it's not about oh hey come to Craig I've got so much experience I'm amazing you just sit and let me just stand on my pedestal and impart wisdom to you it's not that at all it's it's this shared from across the table or across a zoom camera what we're all going through and then I just believe that God will the people that he gathers to you through whatever means faithfully a Facebook page a conference whatever reason he's brought you together then sitting across from each other and sharing those experiences can bring wisdom can bring healing can bring greater impact in the kingdom and so I look at faithfully and I set up a couple of different groups I think I set up one I haven't had extremely busy right now as soon as I'm out of these holiday funk and holiday hangover from ministry stuff I can start engaging that but I think I titled one level up and how do we help each other level up our ministry I did one I created a group for pre-teen ministry specifically because I have a huge heart for that and so I just hope it just gathers a handful of people that we can just all right hey what's working for you what's what's challenging you what are you struggling with you know and that's just kind of the season that I'm in I'm unfortunate to feel called the children's ministry there's some other guys like me in my networks that are lifers that this is your calling and they don't plan to go anywhere else and so God has given us the opportunity to see a lot of changes in the 30 years of children's ministry and if that helps somebody that's been at it for a long time or somebody that's new at it then great and then I also know I have the opportunity to learn something else from somebody else as well yeah that's awesome thanks that's exactly why we're creating it um yeah yeah we'll talk more after uh how can we be praying for you and your family yeah I'm in a very interesting season it's probably been one of the most challenging seasons for me and my family but it's also you know just one where God is just I think stripping away the things that have given me sustainable comfort and maybe ease I've been in career ministry for 30 plus years and I've been very fortunate to live off of that and make good salary I've been in small churches and large churches and you know always made it up to support my family through those things and um this past year I was in Colorado for 12 years my wife and I took a position east coast and it just didn't pan out it's great church you know there's just some differences and strategies and vision and how to get there and there's some things for me that I found myself for the first time in my life experiencing like I've never in my life experienced anxiety or stress in a job situation and for the first time I was and so we you know mutually decided hey maybe this just isn't the right fit so I left and I left without a plan you know our best worst idea was to head to my mother-in-law's because they needed some help some health issues around the house and so we just decided to do that and I was going to reboot I was going to pray about how could I start doing a shepherding and coaching and mentoring for people in in a niche market for lack of better word that you know really people that need it or don't have the money for it and those kind of things and so along the way my friend offered me part-time work at his church and full health benefits which is a huge blessing and then I got connected through friends with a couple of organizations that do coaching and mentoring but race support like a missionary to so that the year fully funded you can go to somebody who has a need for it and money's not the reason you can't do it and so I was something that never even occurred to me to do it that way and God has opened the door for me to do that with an organization but I'm just starting where you know my wife and I are dividing time between northern California and southern California we're apart for some of the time and then we come together at one place or the other until I've raised my support for this other organization and have a full salary and that you know that could be three months four months five months six months who knows but in that time we're just leaning to God he's showing he's showing us that he's taking care of us every step of the way and he's opening the doors for where I really feel my calling is for this next season still to children's ministry I just in some different ways empowering and coaching and resourcing and shepherding others who do it and I still want to always be engaged in ministry whether it's part time or as a super volunteer because I don't like when you know people come to you and say they want to help you in a ministry that they haven't been involved in in ten years you know they haven't been around in the trenches at all so I will I feel like I just for me personally I just always want to stay connected so that I know what's happening in the lives of families because it changes you know rapidly so yeah so God's been good but I would say prayer just for provision this next season we can see God working it's just never on the timing that I want and so we just have to be yeah prayer for patience and his provision thank you for that um this was great yeah well talk again soon I'm sure we will I love the opportunity to share you know God's putting on my heart and share it and hear from other people and and uh so yeah this is great appreciate the time that's it for the podcast thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories podcast we pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey the Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly an online community committed to empowering church leaders pastors staff and volunteers the Faithly Digital Platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection foster collaboration and promote growth within the church and ministry space remember to subscribe rate and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you stay tuned for more uplifting tales from the frontlines of ministry on the Faithly podcast stay bold stay faithful and never underestimate the power of your own story