What Nobody Tells You About Ministry - Terry Mertink | Faithly Podcast

0:00 Take time to listen. You might take some time, just maybe afternoons, or maybe you take a long weekend and just have one of those times of solace where you can just be quiet and feel God's presence and listen to the direction God's taking you. This is the Faithly Podcast. Hi, and welcome back to another episode of the Faithly Podcast. I am super excited today to be joined by my friend, Terri Mertink. Terri has, for the last decade, worked in the president, excuse me, in the office of the president of Focus on the Family.

0:45 And we want to talk about that ministry and what he does today. But we also want to talk about what led him to ministry, what led him to this position. Prior to joining Focus on the Family, Terry worked for decades at large corporations like Dell and Applied Materials, And one of the things that we want to get into today is for folks who are thinking about leaving a corporate career and who are thinking about ministry or feeling called to ministry, what are some of the things to think about? So with that, I'd love to dive in. Welcome, Terry. Thanks, Alicia. Thanks for having me here today. And just to be clear, I am not the president of Focus on the Family.

1:29 That's Jim Daly, but I work with his office. So people say, are you the president? No, no, no, no, no, no. Well, I have been known to give out promotions on the fly. That is something that I do. But thank you for clarifying that. I love that. Oh, great. I'll take it. Okay, so I talked a little bit about your decades in corporate, but can you tell us a little bit more about that? What was your career like before ministry? Yes, so I spent 20 years in high tech. We lived, my family and I lived down in Austin, Texas at the time. And I started my high tech career with a company called Applied Materials, which is semiconductor manufacturing equipment, which is a fancy way of saying...

2:11 Machines that make computer chips. So I started as a technical instructor there and traveled all over the world, training the engineers and technicians how to use our computer chip manufacturing equipment. If you've ever heard of the term clean room, Clean room is where all of the machines are that make the computer chips. So I spent a lot of time in clean rooms all around the world, actually. So and then toward the end of my time at Applied, I was there 12 years. I became a global services manager and worked on other global services that applied materials provided.

2:52 So did that for 12 years and then eight years after, excuse me, for the next eight years after that, I worked for Dell Computers, which is now called Dell Technology. I was in product management there at Dell and specifically worked in the services industry. I spent a lot of time as a subject matter expert and called it in the business, a SME and a subject matter expert on data centers and doing data center installations, so So I would go with salespeople to customer sites to talk about how we can provide services to install their data centers and maintain them. And did that for about eight years.

3:33 And that was my 20 year high tech career before coming to Focus on the Family. Wow. And there was a time when some of that stuff might have been considered legacy tech, but now that we're in the AI era, it's all coming back. Chips, data centers, it is all squarely at the center of the most high-flying tech. My friend, may I tell you, when I left Applied Materials, the stock was not as much as it was just several months ago when I saw stock hit $700 a share. And I was like, oh, boy, I still wish I had some of that. But that wasn't God's plan, and that's okay. No, no. And so that's actually why this conversation is important. This wasn't a trade for you, right?

4:16 This was a call. So talk about that call. When did you first begin sensing that God might be calling you into ministry? Yes. So timing was part of that. I was 49 years old at the time. So this is going back 11 years ago. Our son was already out of the house. Caleb is his name. And our twin daughters, Emily and Lydia, were seniors in high school. So I started to get that feeling of, okay, Lord, I've, I've, I've, done this career in high tech for 20 years. I've enjoyed corporate America. Is there something different you want me to do? Is there some way I can give back more than just traveling and talking with people about data centers, which is admirable, but I spent time in prayer through that.

5:04 And my wife, Ronna, she would also see me kind of in that wonder state, and So it seemed like that stage and that time in my life was good timing, knowing that I'd have another 15 or 20 years of run in another role somewhere, specifically in a ministry. That was my hope. Wow. Well, so it sounds like it was like this sort of gradual thought process that happened over the course of years. Was there, however, a specific moment that sort of changed things or really called you to action? I think so. I started to get frustrated with corporate America and some of the things that are, how can I just say, that are more secular in their dealings with things.

5:57 And being part of that was like, man, do I really want to be a part of that? I mean, I love my job, but all the other aspects around that when it comes to politically correct PC types of things, just wasn't a fit for me. And I know there were a lot of other people at the time where I was working that felt the same way. Fortunately, and I'm sure I can say this, Del, we had a prayer group that anyone was welcome to come to. There were probably 250 people All Christians that would come and periodically would gather together and be in prayer and do Bible study. So that was really, really great. But there were just other aspects of it.

6:38 Just Lord, I feel like I have these skill sets. I feel like I can give in another way that can be more significant. And there's a book that Bob Buford wrote, you may know this book called Half Time, and the book is actually Half Time Moving from Success to Significance. That book really hit me. I wasn't a huge millionaire type of person, but I was successful at what I was doing in corporate America. But was I being significant in God's kingdom? Was I making eternal significance? That was a big part of it, really starting to realize that.

7:20 So through my prayer time, and frankly, there were some times too, I would come home and I would be frustrated about things at work. And Ronna would say, Terry, why don't you just quit? Which I don't think she meant quit immediately. I think she meant look for something else. So I started to consider that. And one of the things I did is I was on the Focus on the Family website. I'll tell the part of the story now if I can. I was on the Focus on the Family website looking for something related to marriage or parenting. You know, we were still raising our kids who are becoming adults and all the great marriage stuff that Focus on the Family has. And I thought, I wonder if they have any careers for someone with my skill set.

8:02 So I went on their career link and I saw this position that was with... the office of the president. And I thought, wow, this is like a perfect fit for all the things that I've done corporate wise. So that was really neat. And that thought was in my mind at that point. I didn't think about it for the next six months because got back into doing everyday things and going to work and about six months had passed. And I got back on the website looking for I'm going to just look and see if that job's still open. And if it's still open, I'm going to take that as a sign that maybe God wants me to apply.

8:44 And so I was on the website, focused on the family, clicked on careers, and the position was still open. And I said, okay, God, I'm going to apply. Wow, what a story. It really resonates with me because I similarly was sensing a closed door at Goldman Sachs where I was for 18 years. And it took a closed door. For you, it was these feelings of frustration for me to then turn my eyes to an open door, which for me was faithfully. So how the Lord sort of walked you through that season, like I said, really resonates with me. Um, here's a question for you though.

9:25 I think that for anyone who's worked in corporate or for anywhere for that matter of 20 years, um, feelings of frustration with your job can happen, right? Like, I think we've all been there. How did you discern whether that was, um, a temporary feeling or part of something that the Lord had for you in terms of something different? Yeah. I would answer that by saying, I never was, I hate my job. I got to get out of this and do something else. And then immediately think, oh, I'm going to go work for a ministry. Yes, kumbaya, it's a ministry. Everything will be wonderful. Never any issues in the ministry. Never, that never was my thought, right?

10:06 So it was never the thought of, I hate my job and I got to get out of here. I think that if we get to that point, first of all, we're past where we should be. We probably should have looked for something else sooner. But when we get to the point of we just dislike what we're doing so much that it's easy to see the grass being greener on the other side. And I will tell you, rarely is the grass as green as you think it is on the other side. So that was a piece for me that I... I was, you mentioned gradually kind of going into this and gradually feeling like this is a time and this is something that I want to look at and start to discern to see if the Lord's calling me to do something else.

10:53 So let's spend a couple minutes talking about focus on the family. So this was a ministry you were already familiar with. I think you mentioned you've used them for resources as you've raised your family. Tell us for someone who doesn't know what it is, tell us about the ministry and why it was so appealing to you. Sure. So Focus on the Family was founded by Dr. James Dobson in 1977. And he was a professor down, actually, he's a psychologist, I should say, down in Southern California. And at the time, he was just hearing all of these things through the media and publications about parenting that he knew weren't biblically accurate.

11:35 So he wrote a book called Dare to Discipline, which many, And then he had his first broadcast where he talked about parenting. And that was 50 years ago, and it just bloomed from there. So last year, last summer, Dr. Dobson passed away. But Jim Daley, when Dr. Dobson retired, which was 2010, Jim Daley was at the helm and became president, CEO, and the voice of Focus on the Family. Jim Daley is the person that runs Focus on the Family today. But if you were to ask what Focus on the Family is, we really do five things. And one is evangelism.

12:15 How can we reach people for Christ? That's our top priority. The second is marriage. How can we help people in their marriages that are in crisis or just to have a better marriage? That is so important. That's... Evangelism first and then marriage. And then our third thing we do is parenting. Lots of parenting resources, helping parents raise their children in a Christlike environment. Sanctity for life is the fourth thing. It's very important to us. And we basically are very much a pro-life organization. We believe in life from the womb to the tomb. So not just about pro-life from let's see how we can help these young women who are pregnant.

12:58 And, you know, save babies, but also how can we have ensure people are dying with dignity and not having the government make a decision for them in that. And then the last thing is engaging the culture as Christ would engage the culture, which I think is key in all aspects of what we do. it's a cliche to say, what would Jesus do? But that really is so true. How would Christ engage someone that's not a Christian? How would Christ, which is what we should do, right? Jesus didn't like to hang around with religious people. He got out there in the mess. And that's important for us to do too. By the way, that's not just focus on the family. That's any true Christian ministry, we need to be out in the mess, not part of it, not making it, but acting as Christ would be and being Christ-like in everything we do.

13:50 So that's a big piece of how we help people with their marriages, how we help people raise their kids. How we help people and work with pregnancy centers all over the United States. And Jim Daly, our president and CEO, is a key, key model of leading as Christ would lead and getting in the mess sometimes, but helping people where they need the help. Wow, what an impactful organization, what an amazing ministry. No wonder you were so attracted to it. So you're in the office of the president, and you said that the role seemed to fit your corporate background really well.

14:31 Tell us more about your role and what you do. Yes. So in my role, I support our donors. And basically what I do is I spend a lot of time out in the field, out on the road, traveling and visiting with individuals with donors that support focus on the family. I develop relationships with donors, make connections, a lot of networking. I get our leaders here at Focus on the Family. I help connect our leaders with key individuals that are around the United States. Jim Daly travels with me, or I should say I travel with him at times, and we do events. So if I'm in Dallas or if I might be in California or New York, Jim may be with me, and we may do a dinner somewhere.

15:19 Invite a lot of people to come in here about focus on the family. So really, it's relationship management is what I do here. And that's a big part of being a representative of focus on the family. Well, given what you shared about what you used to do, I can see how all those skills and all those experiences led you to really be very effective in your role. When you were deciding to move from the corporate world to focus on the family, what were your biggest fears? Like, did you have fears about leaving your job? I did, and I'll tell you, I'm human, right? My biggest fear was, wow, leaving a position where I have annual bonus, we have stock, I have a good salary, and going into a ministry that I'm not going to have those things.

16:14 So my biggest fear, I think, was financially. And I'll be open and tell you that. That was the main thing. One of the main things holding me back was, can I get into ministry work with a nonprofit or with an organization where I still can have an income to support my family? Now, I'll tell you, Alicia, I was in a little bit of a different place in my stage of life because the kids were already grown. We'd already saved up for not all the kids' college, but a lot of the kids' college was saved for already. So we had a lot of the big money things already kind of.

16:56 Saved up for or we were past that time, you know really raising the kids. So that made the decision a little bit easier as well But that was one of the number one things was the aspect of knowing that I'm going to move from a position where I'm making a good Salary to position where I still have a salary, but it's not going to be as much as what I made in the past Yeah, that makes sense. So you mentioned that when you were frustrated with your current corporate job, I think, at Dell, Rana said, just quit. Well, when you decided that you were going to leave and you made the decision to move into ministry, what was her reaction?

17:37 What were your friends' reactions, your kids' reactions? Wow. All over the place. How's that? Family was all very positive. The only negative piece was that we lived in Austin, Texas, and taking this role, I would have to move to Colorado Springs, which is a beautiful place, but it means separating from family because all of our extended family was down in Austin, so that was a bit of a bitter time, but I've been blessed that both sides of Rana's family and my side of the family are all Christians. So they were just thrilled that I was going to be going to work for such a great organization, like focus on the family. Alicia, what's interesting is my friends, especially friends that weren't Christian, that just didn't get it.

18:24 Like, what? What are you going to be doing? You're going to like, this is like a step down. Why would you do that? And again, it's that doing something for more significance. That was hard. I can think of a specific friend that basically deep, defriended me. That's not the right way to say it, but unfriended me is the right way to say it. And was like, he just did not get why I was doing this. And, and just, it was really a weird thing. And so I would say that individuals that are working in the corporate world and then want to get into a ministry specifically, just be aware that you may have some people in your circle that are not going to understand, and you may lose some people in your circle, right?

19:14 But you know what? That's what we are as Christians. And we can't just go along with the world if we're going to make a change. And like I did and get into the ministry work, we have to know. Jesus said, how many times you are going to be persecuted because of me? And we think that was only in Bible times? No, we are still persecuted because of Christ. So in my way, it was just losing contacts of individuals some, which is not really true persecution as we see in the Christian world around the world. But yeah, so that was it. That was a hard thing. Well, so there were a lot of realities that you had to face. Financial, you had to make a move away from family and friends.

19:57 And then you lost a friend in the process as well. So those were a lot of shifts to happen all at once. Was there anything else? Like looking back, is there anything you wish someone had told you before you made the move? Yeah. Yeah. I wish that I would have known that I'd be working harder in a ministry, in the ministry world than I did in the corporate world. And I worked hard in the corporate world, but it's a different kind of work. In the corporate world, it's not as emotional. In the ministry world, especially if you're in a ministry role, pastors, if any pastors are watching this, I'm assuming they're shaking their head yes.

20:46 You're on 24-7. Oh, and by the way, your family has to be perfect, right? Because you work for a ministry and it's all of those wonderful things. Oh, you work for this. You're a pastor. You work for this ministry. Your family must be wonderful. That's not the way. That's not the way. That was a piece that was eye-opening was the 24-7 aspect of the work and also the there's no perfect family anywhere. There's just not. So when I meet with people, I meet with people that are very affluent and they still have stuff going on in their families and they share that.

21:30 So in the working world, in the corporate world, people don't share all their emotions about what's going on in their family. You're there to work. I mean, you have close friends, so there's some sharing. But in the ministry world, everybody wants to share with you. which is wonderful because we can provide resources for people. We can help them. But Alicia, I'll tell you, my first couple of trips out, I remember getting in the car after dinners and being with people, and I would just be bawling because I'm thinking, Lord, me? You're using me to do this work? I'm not a pastor, but that emotional piece, you have to be aware that that's going to happen in the ministry world, especially if you're in a ministry position, again, that deals with people outside of your ministry.

22:27 What other assumptions did you have about ministry that might have turned out not to be right? I'll tell you, in my case, I assumed that there's no way I'll apply at Focus on the Family and I'm and I'm just using this as an example, it happens to be where I work, but I know other, many, many, many other ministries that are out there are the same. But my thinking was I'll apply, but there's no way I'll be able to, they're not gonna be able to provide financially for me, you know, to have a family still. And I realized that a good ministry, it takes care of their people financially as well.

23:08 I mean, they realize, hey, you know, you're valuable in what you do. You have skill sets. I really, really am an advocate of ministries hiring business people that have good business acumen. That just helps the ministry so much because you utilize Christian business principles then to run all that goes on within the doors. But that piece of it, I would say that aspect of I assumed that ministries wouldn't pay enough for me to still maintain my family. And certainly, I doubt any ministries pay as much as corporate America.

23:50 I know I took a big pay cut. I'll just be fair with you, right? However, I was at a different stage of life, too. And I want to be sure I'm clear about that. Here's why I mentioned this, Alicia. Alicia. Because if you're at a stage of life where you might be younger and you might be thinking, I've done this corporate thing, I wanna move into a ministry role, but you still have a lot of expenses left in front of you that you're gonna have to take care of for several more years, family, kids, those kind of things, and you don't have the savings yet, I would say really think about that. It's so easy to say, I'm going to go work for a ministry. It's going to be great. It's going to be wonderful. God's going to take care of me.

24:31 Everything's going to be fine. Certainly God's going to take care of you. But financially may not be the way he's going to take care of you. And if you think that financially is the way God's going to take care of you and that's your thought, I would reassess what your thinking is. Because God certainly takes care of people in the ministry world. But you don't get into the ministry world to make money. I'll just say that. Well, that is wise advice from a man who has walked the road and had to make those decisions. Thank you, Terry. All right. Well, let me ask you this. Sure. What parts of ministry have been more rewarding than you thought it would be? Oh, boy.

25:12 Yeah. Just the significance. Can I share a story with you? Yeah, please. Yeah. So this is amazing. The God incidents, the God things that happen. Unbelievable. I've taken hundreds of trips in the last 10 years, hundreds of trips all over the U.S., I haven't had a single trip where God has not done something that was like, whoa, I wasn't expecting that. Not one out of hundreds of trips. God shows up every single time. Alicia, that never happened to me in the corporate world.

25:53 If I had a corporate meeting that got canceled or bumped or something didn't go right, it was frustrating. If I have a meeting that gets canceled at Focus on the Family when I'm supposed to go meet with one of the donors or something gets shifted, I used to get frustrated at first. But God always filled it with something that was amazing. So here's my story. My very first trip to go visit with some donors was in California. I was representing Focus on the Family, representing Jim Daly in our ministry, and And I wanted to go to this pregnancy center. I'd been trying to connect with the executive director of this specific pregnancy center in Northern California.

26:35 Just wanted to go by and say hello on behalf of Jim Daly. Just wanted to say hi. If there's any resources you need, we'd love to connect with you. All of those pieces. I couldn't get a hold of this lady. Tried calling, leaving voicemails. So I fly out to California and I thought, I've got numerous meetings set up in the day, and I thought, you know, I'm gonna just stop by that pregnancy center and see if I can say hello to her. So I go by the place, go inside, introduce myself. They seemed very excited that I was there in a good way, but they said, oh, well, she's not here anymore. That's why you couldn't get a hold of her. You have old contact information. But our new executive director would love to see you. Can you come back in an hour? I said, okay, I've got an hour. I'll go eat, I come back.

27:16 I meet with the executive director. Now, I'm telling you this story because it's the very first time that I'm out in the field representing Focus on the Family. Not just the first time, literally the very first meeting. I'm having someone, with someone. And I meet with this lady, the executive director, and we're in her office, and she starts crying. And I'm thinking, wow, my very first meeting, and I'm making somebody cry. Yeah. This is not good. Something's wrong. And she looks at me. She said, Terry, I said, Jackie was Jackie. What's going on? Why are you crying? And she says, I have to tell you something, Terry.

27:57 We are in the process of changing out our facility here and changing out our equipment that we use in the pregnancy center. And this morning I was thinking, I don't know how we're going to do this. I think Focus on the Family has resources and equipment that they may be able to provide, but she wasn't sure. So she said, this morning I was looking on your website, I got distracted with something, and this afternoon you walked in my door. Come on. So now I'm crying, right? And, um... So that was my very first meeting. My second meeting, this is, I'll keep this really short, was with a banker. I told him that story. He was so excited. He said, hey, I'm on the bank committee.

28:38 How much are those machines that they need at their pregnancy center? I told him what the amount was. He goes, have her call me. We'll go ahead and fund it. I'm thinking, oh my gosh. Lord, all the work you're doing here, and I've only been starting day one being out in the field. So those God incidents happen all the time. Maybe not that significant, but connections and networking. It's amazing when you are doing the Lord's work and you're following his guidance, let him go and do the work. Not me. I just stand back. I would mess everything up, Alicia, if it was me trying to move forward. But let God lead and don't get in front of him and don't try to run faster than he can.

29:21 That also applies for when you're looking for work. Don't try to run. Don't try to force things to happen. My prayer life changed when I started looking for work and I started to apply it, focus on the family. My prayer life changed in that, My prayer was, Lord, close the doors if it's not meant to be. Before that time, it was, Lord, let the doors open so that I can know that you're there and walk through. And then you kind of wonder when doors are open, was it really God opening the door or not? But my prayer was, Lord, close the doors. Because if a door closes, okay, God knows better than me. I wanted that. He knew better that I shouldn't do that.

30:02 My fact here is, as I started to apply focus on the family, the doors kept opening and opening. And yeah, the rest is history, I guess, so. Wow, thank you for sharing those stories with me. They're awesome and amazing. I think people assume that for someone like you, Terry, to move from corporate to ministry, wow, your faith must have been huge. You must have had great faith, and you did. But through these God incidences, your faith can be increased. Um, I'm just, I'm just, I'm hearing about this, like, oh my God, screen and my faith is increased. Like I can only imagine what have, what it must have felt like to be standing there and be witness to this.

30:46 Yes. Yes. And I want to mention something too. Uh, I'm not changing subjects necessarily, but, um, I, I'm not changing subjects necessarily, but, um, I, I'm not changing subjects necessarily, but, um, I, I'm not changing subjects necessarily, When I was applying for work at Focus on the Family, and I share this for anyone in corporate America that's looking to get into a ministry, I had the opportunity also to see Focus on the Family from the inside. During that interview process, you know, I was here. I had the opportunity to ask questions. In my position, I met with the executive leaders, so I had an opportunity to ask them questions as well. And I could see, wow, what I see on the outside of this ministry, Focus on the Family, is what it's like on the inside as well.

31:30 That was really, really key. And I would say for anybody that's looking to get into a ministry, really do your homework to make sure it is a ministry that follows biblical practices. And what you see on the outside is the way it is on the inside as well. Sometimes it's not always so easy to do during an interview process, but ask questions, probe. And just because it's a ministry doesn't mean it's following biblical principles necessarily. And there may be things, skeletons in the closet that are revealed to you during that interview process. And take that as a closed door.

32:11 That's advice I would give. That's really good. Yeah. Let me ask you this. Is there anything you didn't expect to miss from your corporate career that you actually do really miss? Well, the first thing I missed was the first year I was here and all my buddies at Dell told me what the bonus package was. And I was like, oh, don't tell me. Because we get a $25 gift card for a turkey at Thanksgiving here, which I'm very thankful for. But it wasn't like the cash bonus I used to get at Dell. But anyway, sorry. You can edit that out if you want, but that's the truth.

32:53 That might actually be the promo reel. I mean, it's a very real answer. I think these are the realities that people need to think about, right? Yeah. So ask a question again, though, please. Oh, is there something that you didn't expect to miss in your corporate career that you've actually really ended up missing? The art of the deal that I missed because I was used to the art of the deal. going in, talking with customers, explaining what resources we could provide, being there with the sales team, and being in that corporate environment for the art of the deal. That is a piece that I do miss.

33:36 I did miss some, I would say. But then you get to work in a place like Focus on the Family, and then you get to work where you're saving marriages. You're saving families who are suffering because their kids are going through stuff. They're having parenting issues. You're saving babies. Whoa, eternal kingdom impact, not worldly impact. And so the whole point I mentioned before, you know, about, gosh, I'm, you know, I did miss having my bonuses, right? Worldly, worldly, worldly kingdom impact is what we have now is what I have now.

34:17 And when you work in a ministry, that is a focus that it may not be financial. It's not financial, but I know that when I get to heaven, I will have worked to help more people get to heaven, to save souls while we were here on earth through the work that I'm doing. I can't say that I ever had that when I worked in corporate America. Kingdom impact. Kingdom impact. That's it. Have you encountered any leadership challenges that your corporate job didn't prepare you for?

35:04 I, leadership challenges, let me answer the question this way. Um, a nonprofit focus on the family as a nonprofit might work somewhat differently than a church ministry. I don't know. I've never worked in a church ministry, but I've appreciated how focus on the family uses business principles to make decisions. And you still have to make hard decisions, hard decisions. but they're thought through, they're prayed over before they are actually made. So understanding that nonprofits, I mean, think of all the great nonprofits, that Samaritan's Purse, World Vision, Compassion International, Focus on the Family.

35:53 Yes, they're all ministries, but if you were to go into those ministries, you'd see they run like a business. If they're successful, they run like a business. So that is good. But realizing that decisions have to be made. And some decisions are not going to make people, some people aren't going to be happy, some people aren't going to be happy. But it still has to be made. But knowing that we never make decisions here at Focus on the Family, just on the fly. We always prayerfully consider all the decisions we have to make. And we do our best not to try to get in front of what God is trying to do with our ministry. And that just means sometimes things go a little slower.

36:34 Not that that's bad, but it's like, hey, let's make sure this really is the direction God is taking us in what we're doing here. That's good. And that sounds like a leadership lesson that is true and good in ministry or elsewhere. A hundred percent. And I think that's some of the things, you know, I think about my project management. I think about my business leadership. All of those things transition so well over to ministry and ministries need it. I say ministries need it, but I also want to say that ministries also need individuals that are in the business world that can support the ministry.

37:16 If everybody who felt like, I feel like I'm called, and I'm okay with taking a pay decrease, if everybody did that, who would fund the ministries? So when individuals that are in corporate America that are making way more money than I ever made, but they support ministries like Focus on the Family, they are doing God's work still, or they're working through us, right, to do God's work. So that's still a huge, huge need. But yeah, just wanted to make that point. Yeah, and it's a great point. It sounds like you've learned a lot in this last decade in ministry. Share maybe one thing you've learned about yourself, either as a professional or as a man, in this new season of your career.

38:08 I have learned to rely on God more. Yeah. I have learned to realize that God is in control and not me. If you ask my family that, they'd be like, are you sure, dad, that you've learned that? Because you seem to be in control all the time. I try to be right. I tell them I'm a realist, right? But so I've learned, you know, those aspects of God being in control. The biggest thing I've learned would be that when things don't go right, take a moment. If things don't go to what my plan was, step back for a second and see what God's going to do to fill that. Because if you're doing any work that where you are representing the Lord and it's not going to the plan you have, step back because God may be just taking a moment to say, hey, let me hit you on the head with the two by four real quick because you're not going the direction I need you to go.

39:09 So that's been really, really helpful as well. And I would say it's this has brought my wife and I closer together. we were very prayerful about making this change. I want to make sure that anybody listening to this realizes if you're married and your spouse is not on board with you making a change or is very uncomfortable with that and is not certain, guess what? That might be a door that's closed just for the moment, right? I would never, never make a decision without Rana also being on board with what that decision is.

39:50 It's one thing to say, but honey, God will take care of us. God will handle it all. Yes, God can. But God also gave us wisdom. And we need to use the wisdom he gave us to make good decisions and be discerning. And the first piece of discernment after prayer is, is my spouse on board with this? Are we aligned together? Are we connected on this and saying yes? That's really good. Thank you, Terry. All right, now I got to ask some hard questions. Those are all the softballs, Terry. We're going to ask some hard questions now. Okay, go ahead. So you've touched on just a couple groups of people who maybe should think carefully about ministry before they make that jump.

40:38 You mentioned, hey, if it's not financially viable for you, you got to think about that. And you've just mentioned if your spouse is not on board. You really got to, you know, you really got to take pause. Are there any other groups of people who should really be thinking long and hard before they leave their jobs for ministry? If you don't have a spouse, maybe you're single, a very close family member, confide in them to see if they're on board. I just want to make that one point. Are there any other to make the decision? Again, if you are in a job right now and you really dislike it and that's your, I just, I hate my job.

41:24 I can't do this anymore. Whoa, don't make any rash decisions about a move because you're working off your emotions. And that's not a healthy way to make a decision is to work off those emotions. Yes, maybe you need to get out of the role that you're in. but you need to understand what you are getting into. If you think that going to work for a ministry is kumbaya, it's all going to be good. Everyone's going to be pleasant with each other. There's never going to be any issues. There's never going to be any arguing or any conditions where, you know, there's going to be sadness or anything like that or tough decisions to make.

42:06 That is just false. They're still people of people. And even if you're in a ministry and everyone in there is a Christian, which if you're in a ministry, you would hope so. People are still people. Sometimes if you are not a very gracious person, being in a ministry can be difficult for you. I hope you can read between the lines and how I'm saying that, because sometimes I'm not the most gracious person. And that is a place where I've grown as well as to have more grace within the things that we do, because there are times, as I said before, where ministry work may not move as fast as what you're used to in the corporate world.

42:50 But it's because it's important to to make sure that we're following what God's direction is. Now, that being said, any job you need to give grace. But if you're used to being in control and you think you're going to go in and make all these changes, oh, I have all these ideas, I'm going to come in, I'm going to hit the ground running, I'm going to make all these changes, step back. Because there were a lot of you in that, right? You think you're going to do that. I'm going to do, I'm going to do, I'm going to do. If you're in a ministry, right? You need to come into it humble and smart. We have a saying here at Focus on the Family. We like to hire people that are humble, hungry, and smart.

43:34 Hungry like they have desire to learn and do things. But humility is one of the number one parts about working in the ministry. And again, working at Focus on the Family in this case. Humble, hungry, and smart. I like it. I like it. I'm not always so smart, and I'm not always so humble. I'm often hungry, but it's more of just I'm truly hungry. I was going to say that's the one that I think I resonate with the most. That's right. One out of three is not bad. Oh, boy. This is another tough one, Terry. Sure. What are some of the unhealthy reasons why people might pursue ministry?

44:18 Yeah, again, if they're disappointed, disillusioned with the current job that they're in, they may think, oh, again, going to work for a ministry is going to be easy. And I think that's unhealthy because ministry work is not easy. That's probably one of the biggest ones that I see for as an unhealthy reason why people want to maybe go into ministry work. I think some healthy reasons are if they have a heart for the Lord, if they have a heart for serving, if they have a desire to use the skills that they've learned, but go into a ministry and be a part of that team. That's all great, healthy reasons.

45:01 Hmm. Very good. All right. So, Terry, what would you tell someone who might be feeling stuck between a successful career like the one that you had and this growing sense of calling? Yeah. First of all, pray. Pray about your situation. That's first and foremost. And take time to listen. You might take some time, just maybe afternoons, or maybe you take a long weekend and just have one of those times of solace where you can just be quiet and feel God's presence and listen to the direction God's taking you. I would also recommend that you consider a prayer of, Lord, close the doors if this is not meant to be, like I did.

45:50 That was healthy for me. Certainly be in alignment with, if you're married, be in alignment with your spouse. That is so, so key. That doesn't go above prayer, but it definitely is, I would say, second on the list. And then I would say, look at ministries that fit your job. or fit your talent set. Look at ministries that fit, what are my skill sets that are there? There's a lot of ministries out there. As a matter of fact, there's 1.5 million nonprofits in the United States of America. I think that number's right, I've heard that number. They're not all Christian by any means, but there's a lot of those are ministry type of roles or ministry type of organizations, I would say.

46:36 So find one that seems like it would be a good fit for you. and start to pursue it and just see what happens. Is God opening or closing the door in the cases of you starting to look? So prayer, alignment with your spouse, if you're not married, alignment with a very, very close relative. Maybe it's a mom or dad, brother or sister, somebody that you're closest to. And just share that time and what your thoughts are and, you know, seek counsel from someone that maybe is a little bit older than you are, that's been through life and done things. That's a piece of it as well. That's really good. Thank you.

47:16 Any last thoughts, Terry, before we go? Yeah, it's not easy. Personally, it wasn't easy for me once I started in my role here at Focus on the Family. I had a lot of things that I had to get past, not making as much money, moving if you have to make a move. Rana and I became empty nesters. All those things happen at the same time. And that can be difficult when you have things that come up against you, especially financially if you're not making as much, which ideally you probably won't be making as much as you were making in the corporate world.

47:58 So just realizing that ahead of time, I'd give that piece of advice of just knowing that you are probably, it probably is not going to be all roses and happy necessarily at first, if you come into it like the way I came into it. And also I would say, be prepared for the enemy Um, Satan doesn't want anybody to move from the corporate world into a ministry. So know that ahead of time. There are going to be things that are going to happen. But if you realize, hey, Lord, I'm doing this work for you. Use me as a servant. You know, bind Satan from entering into me and making me feel like, what have I done?

48:43 Was this the right thing? All of those negative thoughts, man, Satan just loves to do that and make us think that what we decided to do was wrong when we come from corporate America into a ministry. Amen. Thank you so much, Terry. This has been just such an enlightening conversation. I wish I had had this conversation with you before I left Wall Street and started Faithly. I think it would have been really helpful. So I really hope this conversation has blessed someone out there today. And I just want to thank you again, Terry, for sharing with us. You bet, Alicia. Great to see you. Hope to see you again when I'm up in Manhattan.