Adapting Discipleship in the AI Revolution - Michael Whittle

You're like, there's this whole debate in the church on, do we use AI or do we not? And I think that's like the wrong debate to have. That's like debating, are we going to use email? We still don't understand and listen, I'm not a technologist, I'm not a developer. So I'm learning all of this on the fly. We're literally sitting in a technological revolution and the amount of change that is going to happen in the next five years, we literally legitimately cannot even comprehend it. The pastoral ramifications of putting our head in the sand is completely unacceptable. We missed it with social media. Hey, my name is Michael Whittle, I am the founder of Pulp and AI and we exist to help pastors, preachers, teachers and churches repurpose sermon content to make a formational content, discipleship content and help build many digital networks inside of their local congregations. So excited to share more about that and this is my faithfully story. Welcome to Faithly Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life. Join us as we delve into their challenges, moments of encouragement and answered prayers. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. Learn more at Faithly.co. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired as we unveil the heart of faith through stories from the front lines of ministry on the Faithly Stories podcast. Let's start off by how did you even come up with this idea of Pulp and AI and is it part of the AI craze or like you had this like idea from those before it's all started? Yeah, it's a great question. So to make a long story short, I have been for the past 18 months really trying to, I have felt a wholly unrest, I guess is the only way to explain it about just the faith-based content space, you know. I really interested in just kind of faith-based YouTube channels and podcasts and all that kind of stuff. And so for the last 18 months, I've been experimenting with what is kind of building a unique media brand in the faith-based space look like. And so I had been kind of building that with some friends, honestly, just kind of slowly burdened some experiments. And in that process got a bit under the hood of kind of the world of the Christian influencer a little bit, which is an industry, which is so funny to say that there is like this industry of Christian influencers and content creators. You know, when we were looking at how would we scale the business and what would we need to do, there was just no way to do it without sort of aligning ourselves with that kind of sub-industry. And that was just really not something we were super interested in doing. I'm also a local church pastor, pastor for the last 10 years in Los Angeles and now in Nashville, predominantly young adults. And so, you know, as a local pastor, I was just seeing like how our young people were being formed online through these Christian podcasts and influencers and like, where did you get this wild theology? It's like, oh, from so and so, YouTuber or podcast. And anyways, all I have to say, I just kind of came back to this point of like, okay, what are we going to do here? And it was like this weird sovereign thing. I was literally just going, how do I help local church pastors with, you know, their content and their discipleship material, you know, I know hundreds of pastors and they spend all this time studying and writing and teaching and they do it with such conviction. Most of them just preach a sermon and that's it, you know. And I just, it was this weird coincidence where I was, I came across this piece of technology that I uploaded one of our podcast episodes to and it was a, it was an episode that was, you know, rather, theologically dense and pretty nuanced and what it spit me back out in terms of like show notes and summaries and all of that stuff was just, it was, it wasn't like what I was getting, just like directly, you know, working with church, PT or whatever. And so I basically just reached out to a friend who's a developer and I said, hey, if we get the license to this API, could we build something around this? And I just, it was literally going to be like this MVP that I was going to show to 15 people and didn't even really think about like the, it being like the AI craze. I actually wasn't even thinking about AI being a part of it. And then I was like, what are we going to call this thing and start a plan around online? And it was when I bought the domain like pulpitai.com, I was like, ah, this is like, this is going to be a part of that moment, you know, but I just wasn't sure. Like I was so unaware of the way the Christian world was thinking about AI at the time. And anyways, that's kind of a long story short. We kind of spun up a little web app and as an MVP and showed it to a few people and I put out a tweet about it and it kind of exploded and went, you know, like viral on Twitter and sort of the weird Christian Twitter zeitgeist. And I thought, okay, maybe we have a, maybe we have a business here. So it's honestly been, that was in June. And so here we are. I wish I could say I mastermind to this whole thing, but Well, often you have like an idea and you don't know how it's going to turn. I always say an idea is like giving birth to a baby. Yeah, it's not good individually, but you have no idea how it's going to end up. Yeah, man. Yeah, you don't. You know, the Twitter thing was funny because and I guess I didn't think about it with the name and you know, our tagline on the first landing page we built was like supercharge your sermon, you know, my background is in media and advertising and so I just had fun with it and you know, initially people thought that without reading what it did, people thought that it was going to write sermons for you, right? Like it was an AI sermon writer and so funny enough, a couple like really big Twitter accounts like reposted it kind of like dunking on it, you know, and like saying like, this demonic ew, you know, like kind of just fully like just railing on it. Um, and so it just took off and it was what was interesting was there was sort of two responses. There was the response from the Christian blogger, the seminary professor, the journalist or the publisher who were like, we don't like this. And then there was the local church worker and that's right. Um, you know, I don't even know that they have a why to be honest with you. I think that part of what that industry exists to do is to pontificate online about ideas, which is fine. I have no issue with that, but it's like, you know, they just, it was like they had a problem with saying that a sermon was content in the first place or, you know, a publisher reaching out and saying this is, this is really bad for the future of like, faith-based content. And I responded him publicly. Oh, because your publisher hasn't been publishing books based on sermon transcripts for decades. And using ghost writers like, you know, so it was just this like, and I was so shocked at the response because on one hand, I'm getting all of, for lack of a better term, like Christian academia in many, in many ways, really disliking it. But then local church workers and local church pastors reaching out to me literally by the thousands going, oh my gosh, this is genius. This is going to save me so much time. And so it was just this weird but also such a classic differentiator between sort of like the academy and the, and the, you know, the, the worker, so to speak, the church worker. But, um, and in all fairness, I actually do get the conversation that needs to happen around AI. I'm not like hating on all that. I appreciate it and I think it's fine. But I think we never really intended to build a product for that person. We intended to build a product for, you know, the local church pastor and the local church media team. So, yeah, I think the always the problem is people react out of fear rather than be curious. And even if it's a terrible idea, my thought is now like, how did you even get to that point? Like, let's, let's go on this journey of, what was the source and how did you come to this logical conclusion that in your mind, this is a good idea or a bit like, yeah. Yeah. And so like you mentioned, and look, I probably didn't like, well, I was just going to say, you know, I probably didn't do myself any favors. I am, I'm not one to back down from, you know, discussion. And I tend to do it through joking and sarcasm, which has not always served me well. My, my first response was, you know, I'm a charismatic. I'm a Pentecostal. And so I said, you know, it's not a sermon writer, but if I could create a large language model that helped, you know, my area, my, my sandbox of Christianity be more theologically faithful, would that be that, would, would that be awful? Because I bet I could, I bet, I bet I could create a model that would help, uh, pastors be more theologically faithful to the text. And I was joking. And then of course, that just added fuel to the, to the fire. So, but it's been fun. My hot take is as AI and AI comes to like full fruition. Um, content is kind of like, be so easy to make. And it's funny because people are worried about like their idea as if it's an original idea, but I think all ideas come from God, because all good things come from God, right? So any good idea you have is for him. So we, we try to take ownership of it and this whole idea of like originality when actually every thought is processed of old information with a new like, you know, context. Right. So it's not even your idea. Like you have a old idea, it just became refreshed. Right. And so can I say, can I say furthermore, if you are studying scripture and coming up with an idea that nobody has ever thought of or come up with, there's a possibility that it's not an orthodox idea. You know what I mean? Like I always, I always find these people like, I've, I've got this, I've pulled out this nugget from the word of God that nobody in the history of Christendom has ever thought about. It's like, ooh, maybe, maybe, you know, maybe that's not as good of a, of a thing as we think it is, you know, but that's my take. That's my take. I'm going to push back a little bit because not necessarily it's like a new, but it's like a renewed, you know, the whole thing with the old one and the new one, because something I've been coming up with in my own mind on this like new journey I'm on, is this understanding of like spiritual intelligence, and like it's crazy how like even if you want to start from like Christianity, start from the Reformation, right? Previously, the 50, 100 years, no one got saved, right? Yeah, it's just today it started in 1900 with like Luther and Calvin. Like it's crazy that we haven't innovated when our understanding in the world has drastically changed. And I think there's this fear of like when we apply new concepts and new principles, but like the principle stays the same in the Bible, you know, and I'm beginning to read the Bible in such a fresh way. It makes more sense to me now because of how I'm understanding in the modern world. And like I want to actually give you a lot of credit too, because I listened to one of your sermons about oscillations and shepherding. Yeah, I did a little research, right? And your like perspective on a possible ship about entrepreneurial, it was like so refreshing and new and modern. And I was like, hey, that makes so much sense. I feel like that's me. And I don't want to call myself an apostle because you kind of called that out. If someone calls them a fossil, run away. You know, it was, yeah, no, sorry, go ahead. No, go, go ahead. I was just going to say it's funny. That was a series that we studied. In fact, we used Sam Storms, a lot of Sam Storms writings that informed that sermon series. And it was actually really cool during that that sermon series. What we did is at the end of every sermon, we said, hey, if this, if this particular gifting is resonating with you, like call it to the altar, let's pray for you. And that was the apostleship was the only one that we didn't because we said, hey, let's, like, let's, let's, let's, let's let those be conversations because that's just such a different, it just feels like such a different thing. And yeah, that was a really fun, fun message. That was about a year ago, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, most people think startup life is glamorous because they seem like, like, like, was an Airbnb and strive and like, oh, yeah, they made it. But like, it'll see all the millions of dead bodies that never made it because it takes resilience. It does. Yeah. And something I've been learning recently is like, there's a difference between being strong, cut your heart and being antifragile because you're fluid and flexible. Yes. Yes. Yes. Man, that anti-fragile word can get me going on a whole other tangent that probably. But yes, I fully am with you. I am fully with you. I think that the anti-fragile nature of someone I think is oftentimes the thing that can be the differentiator between whether or not they're going to be successful or not. Because oftentimes, it's like, if you just keep showing up and you just keep trying, but it's in that in between where it's like, I mean, I don't know if what I'm working on right now will succeed. But I do know that it's not going to be me succumbing to the fear of risk. Yeah. And like, I think in entrepreneurship, it's like, I think he who can stomach the most risk wins within reason, right? Like my appetite for risk now is different with the wife and two kids than it was when I was 24 years old. And I would just, you know, so, but yeah, I think you're totally right. That anti-fragile nature is I fear is becoming less and less normal, you know, in people. But that's a rabbit hole. We probably don't need to go down. One of the reasons why I was so looking forward to talking to you is like, I love ranting too. Because one idea that's parted to like a tree of like, it's so crazy. Yeah. Because in my mind, let's just say you did build this thing. And on a personal note, like, I'm going to make sure you succeed because if my church planning thing happens, I'm going to need your text. Right. I'm not going to rebuild it. No, wait, that's just too much time. So I want you to power on track to like, he's successful. And like, oh, but in my mind, he's like, oh, you don't have to write content on a authorized sermon. Like, people can learn from AGI. Then I can now actually be a pastor and like, care for people. Because that's something that can't be humanized, you know? Okay. My heartache is it probably shows their motivation. And maybe their purpose is all the kilter thinking like, oh, this is who I am because I have all these great things to say. And then actually, it's like, dude, no, it cares. Like in a hundred years, like, it's going to be archived or something. But the people who remember you will remember you because of how you live with them, right? Yeah, that's so true. Yeah, it's, you know, and there was a lot of the push, a lot of pushback that I, you know, look, I understand it. I think being like a tech doomer, like you say, it's like, it was when we were chatting earlier, you were like, what have we innovated since the printing press, you know? I think like being a doomer about all of this is like not going to serve the church well. I really, I really don't. I think like, pastorally, like, there's this whole debate in the church on, do we use AGI or do we not? And I think that's like the wrong debate to have. That's like debating, are we going to use email? What the conversation needs to be like, we still don't understand. And listen, I'm not a technologist. I'm not a developer. So I'm learning all of this on the fly. We're literally sitting in a technological revolution and the amount of change is going to happen in the next five years. We literally legitimately cannot even comprehend it. And the pastoral ramifications of not having, of putting our head in the sand is completely unacceptable. We messed it. We missed it with social media. We missed it. And the church missed it. I heard a story the other day from a friend who's got a pastor who's a pastor in Canada. And he has a family in his church, husband, wife, two kids, youngest daughter has Down syndrome. The mom just passed away after a two year battle with cancer. And pastor preaches a sermon after the service one day, the husband comes up to the pastor and they're just casually talking and chatting. And the pastors just catching up with this gentleman in their church who six months before had lost his wife and is now raising these two baby girls on his own. And this guy just starts to talk to the pastor about how he is taking all of the letters, all of the video, all of the audio, all of the voice memos from his late wife and has found a service online that's going to turn her into a bot that he can then put up on the TV so that the girls can have conversations with their mom. And I just, he told me the story and I said, how do you pastor that? If you have no idea, like, and if we think that that is just happening in rare occurrences, man, that is like we haven't even begun to understand the pastoral ramifications of how our people are going to, how their jobs are going to be upended, you name it. So anyways, I'm, as you just mentioned, I'm ranting to put our heads in the sand and just say, oh my god, we're going to freak out over AI and content. Man, that is like, that's the equivalent of a church 15 years ago saying, like, we'll never have a Facebook page, you know? Or actually, it's even bigger than that. It's, we will never use the internet. You know, so there it is. There's my, there's my rant or the faithly podcast, but yeah. No, that's a lot of, that's a lot of the stuff I'm thinking about and contemplating is not just like, not how does the church practically apply it, but like, this is the world we're living in. And if we're to pastor and disciple people, there's no ignoring the world in which we're living in now and what it's going to look like over the next five, 10 years. So one of the best coats I've heard was from John Piper. He says, I'll live, I'll live them, right? And I think there are cycles and people who are going to not adjust to a change in the world. And obviously you hold on to get your core purpose and identity, but if you don't adjust, there's a new generation growing up with this already, right? So let alone by your current congregation, how are you going to help understand your core beliefs to the context that the new generation's coming up and because you're just like a dinosaur, right? Exactly. And so like, that actually gives me a question because when one of the podcast you say you, you talk to a one of your theological mentors about, you know, backlash and you're like, what, what am I doing? I need help. I can talk to people. But you never answered what they said. So I want to know, like, what's these aid in you? Yeah, I mean, I think the, the sentiment was, hey, listen, you're, you're not doing this with an ill intent. You're, you're not. You know, both of those people were like, listen, if you, like, what's the difference between even if you were building a sermon writer or sermon writer or something that helps you study, kind of their first thought was like, what logos uses AI and has been using AI for years. And pastors have been purchasing sermon series online for years. So, like, is that, is that right or wrong? No, it's a personal conviction thing, you know? And, and so their, their thing was like, dude, you have accountability. You have people in your life that are holding you accountable. You're not. I'm here trying to like, build something that's ultimately going to harm the church and harm people. So like, run your race and, and do it and do it well and literally cannot about what, like, and, and you know, like, these are both guys who are in academia and the leading academic institutions and just said, listen, like, let, if, if John Pekers have outlived them, their response to Christian academia was like, let them argue, because they've been doing it for centuries and they're not going to stop. So like, just don't even, like, just, just don't even worry about it, you know? And I think their big thing was like, you have pastoral accountability, just like a senior minister has pastoral accountability as a Christian business person. You have pastoral accountability. And, you know, when we do that, we, we're just safe, you know? Yeah. So that was kind of there. That was their response. You know, and they both, from a theological standpoint, would fall into, like, the technology is neutral, stand, you know, standpoint. And, but most of them were like, the theological implications of this matter are so much less relevant than sort of the Christian online zeitgeist is saying that they are. It's more the pastoral discipleship focused, like, how are we leading our people into how are they going to interact with it versus should it exist or not exist or any of that. So. I went to a pretty conservative, some minister, but like, what charisma? I know it was weird because my youth pastor was very big goal. He was always about like, we've got to read the word. We've got to read the word that members were. But then we're going to have these like three hour prayer nights over the next three days. And like, it all, that was normal. I thought that was just safe. Yeah. And then I went to like, Westminster, they're so black and white. I was like, one, like, I've never heard someone just break it down systematically. This is amazing. But two, like, they're a hardcore about like, we're right. And this is why they're all. I was like, oh, okay. And you know, I kind of fed into that. So I kind of see this like trajectory of what's going to shift is because there's something with the human psyche that you know if you're talking to someone is fake or not, right? So if it's just information, that's one thing. But if you want a human connection, that's completely different thing. And I think what we should worry more about is like, fakes. You don't know if this person is real or not. So I think there's going to be a greater need or want to meet in person, right? Until we get robots. I'm like, say, it was like people in this. Yeah. That's another problem. Exactly. I think we can never run in the embodied community. Yes. Yes. There's something you can never get rid of the humanist because we're built for like, meaning and like, computers can't generate that guy. Yeah. I want to talk about it like how you grow up. Like you said, you grow really charismatic. But then those are falling out. Yeah. Tell me. Yeah. So yeah. So I didn't grow up in church. Didn't grow up in in a faith tradition. You know, my parents would say they were Christians, like, but that was not like a part of who we were growing up. It wasn't a part of our worldview. And yeah, honestly, when I was 13 years old, a friend invited me to a charismatic Pentecostal and mega church youth meeting. And you know, I about a month before that, I had been at a kind of like a local Southern Baptist youth night, you know, and had heard the gospel preached for the first time. And remember like writing like this is so Texan because I grew up in a little suburb of Dallas, a little town of 20,000 people. And I remember driving in the back of my cousin's pickup truck home after that night, after hearing that message. And like for the first time, going like, okay, God, if you're real, like, I want you to be a part of my life, right? And then it was about two months later that a friend of mine invited me to this youth ministry. And man, it was, I walked in, and it was like the first time that I had been in like a live worship experience. And it was like youth men. It was like back in, I don't know if you remember, there was this era where they were calling youth ministry youth churches. And it was like, you know, it was like the youth church movement. And there was 350 kids in there. And man, worship band was amazing. And uh, man, God touched me in a profound way that night. And I felt the Holy Spirit. I still to this day, you could never tell me that like the hand of God, you know, um, and man from that night on, I dove in head first. I was, I mean, it was everything to me. And, and you know, it's funny, like I say that it's sort of like the charismatic kind of costal tradition. It wasn't as crazy as a lot of them are, you know, like looking back like probably in my mid 20s, I was like, man, that was a circus. And now I've sort of look and like look back with like a lot of appreciation and go, you know what, it was, it actually was pretty balanced. Um, it was sort of a mess theologically. And you know, ultimately became sort of prosperity gospel, which I actually think was like probably the most harmful part of it, not necessarily its charismatic expression because it was the church that was birthed out of a prayer movement. And so it was very big on prayer. It was very big on the prophetic. Um, it was very big on intercession. Um, and, and moving in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. And man, I just like do the Lord touch me like probably a handful of times from, you know, between that night when I was 13 to when I graduated high school. And, um, yeah, I did ministry there and, and honestly learned so much, learned so many beautiful things actually. Um, and then yeah, you know, like any sort of big mega church stuff comes up and the leadership can either decide to handle it with integrity, uh, and, or they can decide to, you know, try and save face. And, um, so, you know, it was a church that was falling apart at the seams behind the curtain, but really just from a leadership perspective. And so yeah, when I was 22, 21, I, I was working at the church full time. I was in Bible college and I just woke up one day and I said, if this is what ministry is, I want nothing to do with it. And I quit and moved back to one of my parents and, um, never ran from God, but definitely was like, you know, all right, I'm done with this ministry, ministry thing. So that was kind of where that, yeah, that was, that was sort of the genesis of, of, of all of that. And then I did, you know, that summer, after I, you know, stepped, stepped out of ministry, I made a short film with a buddy of mine. And, uh, wrote, wrote, wrote a script and just fell in love with it and got actually a job, an internship in New York City, an independent film was being made there and I went out there and to kind of help with that. And, um, I just caught the bug. And like came back home and said, I'm moving to LA and moved to Los Angeles, re-enrolled in film school after going to Bible college, enrolled in film school, got an internship at a, at a film production company. And yeah, kind of just like at the age of 22 was like total 180. So that was, we need to talk because I have so many ideas, movies or children's films because, because I'm a visual person, but just, also, I feel like there's a shift in culture right now too, which is evolving apart. I know. And the angel studio is kind of blowing up. There's room. There's a pocket now, a new way to tell and story, right? 100%. Yeah. Yeah. That's so true. Yeah. I think, I think it's one of the most interesting, you know, having just moved from LA to Nashville. It's apparent that the entertainment industry is crumbling. I mean, the old way of doing things is just it's dead. And I've been in LA, I was in LA 14 years. And so I think that there is like wide open spaces for people who are, who are creating like great film and television. That isn't even necessarily faith-based, but like you say, it's retelling an old story, you know, people want it. So I agree with you 100%, 100%. And it's always the same cycle. There's like a dead cycle. There's like even the Bible, like in judges and it throughout history, where again, you start off trying to help people getting feedback, but then you veer off course because now you're about profits. And then once you get comfortable and they, it's about these ideologies that we stand for. And then you lose your audience. And all the audience wanted was again, a connection you cared. And so as long as the message is resonating, they'll keep coming back. But if they don't feel anything, why would, you know, because I pick you when there's other options. Like you said, we're living in like this revolutionary place, but not necessarily because of AI, but just because everything in culture is kind of getting flipped upside down. And I feel like there's so many opportunities for entrepreneurs to step up and be like, Hey, I have this passion and I want to do this. And I know it resonates with people because every time I talk to them, they're like, Oh, wow, that's great. I want to tell you about like your entrepreneurial journey, man. Okay. So it's been crazy. It's one of those things where I, you know, I got baptized by fire into the world of entrepreneurship. So I was working at this independent film company. It was 2000, maybe 11, I guess, maybe 2010, back happened 2010, beginning in 2011. And the independent, I didn't know it because I was just a kid, really, but the independent film, independent film as a business model was, was, you know, it was, it had been collapsing, right, for, you know, maybe four or five years at that point. There was just not a market for it. The company I was working for lost its funding. I lost my job. And it's funny to even call it a job. It was a glorified internship. I think I was picking like 250 bucks a week, you know, but that's that that's LA for you. You know, that's Hollywood. So I kind of like, me, my roommate kind of tried to sort of build this little production company. We were like making music videos and like random brand stuff, but like it just again, you can't make a living. You could make a living doing that. And I got a call one day from a buddy. And he said, have who was doing media sales at this, at this company that owned the majority of like the taxi top inventory in New York City and was building some like interactive digital networks inside of all the black cars in New York City. And it had a big experiential division. And he called me and he said, hey, the company's based out of New York, the CEO lives in in LA and there's like a small team here of about 12 people. And the CEO's assistant just quit. And if you can get up here today, I bet I can get you this job. Oh, wow. And so I literally went up and I met this guy's name's Lawrence Hallier who to this day is still he's not a believer. And in fact, we still love to debate about he's a staunch atheist. And I'm a Christian and some of our best conversations have been about that. But man, he introduced me into the world of entrepreneurship. So he was the guy who reinvented the taxi top. So he came up, he was building a printed company in the 90s. One of his clients in San Francisco, who was a taxi top company, couldn't pay their bill. And so Lawrence said, listen, give me your company. You know, we'll call it a deal. The guy was like, I want out anyway. And at the time, taxi tops were these gross cone shaped advertisements that basically it was adult nightclubs and cigarettes and really kind of alternative lifestyle stuff that was being promoted on them. And he said, okay, I'll take your company and he redesigned the taxi top and built a company and owned 80% of the taxi top inventory in the United States and ended up selling that to Verifone or was a clear channel. I think it was clear channel. And the minute his non-compete was up, he went and he resigned all those taxi leases and he started building the company again. And so I came in, he sort of, I kind of, he hired me as a personal assistant. And he was transitioning from building out of home media networks to these sort of like interactive digital networks that were all centered around transportation. So over the course of seven years, I helped him launch seven businesses we built interactive digital networks inside of all the taxi cabs in Las Vegas and in black cars in New York City, Singapore, Macau. And so I just honestly got a front row seat. We had this weird detour building a consumer product company that got sued out of business by Blackberry, which is a whole other wild story. And I just fell in love. He just gave me a front row seat. And instead of just like, you know, I wasn't, I mean, I was his assistant on paper, but really I was like, you know, he would send me to Las Vegas and say, hey, in 90 days we have to have this digital network built, like, talk to the taxi companies, hire and build a sales team, figure out how we're going to go to market. And looking back, it's probably just because I was cheap and I was down, you know, to like work 80 hours a week, but I loved it. And so, you know, at the right around that same time, one of my best friends planted a church in LA. And so me and 25 of my friends, you know, planted that, which church planting is entrepreneurial and its own right. And then I just, I got the bug and I fell in love with it and the ups and the downs and, you know, we were building these, it's funny, we were building these transportation based companies when Uber at Lyft was like, kind of really taking off. And so I had a front row seat to like the industries that Uber and Lyft absolutely changed and crushed. And so it's like, yeah, I just, man, I got baptized and I feel like I got like a decades worth of like business and entrepreneurship school over the course of seven or eight years. And yeah, man, just got the bug and loved it and have been chasing it ever since. It's just, it's a blast. So that's kind of the long, that's like the short, I guess, the long short version of where that started. Yeah, I mean, you were basically being discipled by the guy. That's exactly right. And it's funny because I am, I would even, like, there are some things that even still to this day, I'm like, oh my gosh, that's the way Lawrence would have said that or handled that or negotiated that. And you're right. And it was discipleship. It was definitely discipleship. And it's mind boggling how like in the business world, they might not call it those things, but they get it. And when in the church, it's not real life guys. They're not here, but all. It's follow me as I follow Christ, right? It really is. And he was saying follow me as I go build businesses. And it was one of the same analogy I have in my head is like, we're children of God, right? So we're your child, but like God's not physically here. So we need to follow somebody and walk the staffs and see how they did it. And you know, not gripe about the mistakes or what not, right? And not be jealous of their success, but just go through the motion because in the beginning, you have to, you don't know anything, right? And it's not about this. Like you got to like experience it so that this and your heart connects and you're like, oh, I get it. What not to do, what to do in this specific situation? So that later on, it's like, okay, I'm in a similar situation where I need to do, right? And so like you're ready to kind of like walk on your own, but initially anyone who tries to do it on their own, like burn out because they realize like it's almost impossible. And I think that's why Jesus instilled in us this model of discipleship because it's human information. Well, and most of the time, and this is where I can like jump on a soapbox, right? It's like most people don't want to be discipled. They just want to do it. And so like I always tell people like, you know, Gen Z and millennials, and I can pick on millennials because I'm a millennial. Like we want it and we want it now. We want to change jobs 37 times. And it's all about promotion and a little bit extra money. And it's and especially when it comes to entrepreneurship, it's like, what can I extract from every environment to just simply keep going? And I'm like, man, I probably stated that job with Lawrence five years too long. But guess what? And guess what? We don't want to learn that the church is serving in honor. And so so you know, when when someone, you know, when Lawrence needed someone to pick him up from the airport and most people would say, ah, you know, I'm not going to that. I was like, I'll do that because you're really smart. And I want to sit in the hour and a half of LA traffic with you and listen to you. Listen to the phone calls you're making. Like you like he was negotiating. I remember one time he was negotiating a deal worth tens of millions of dollars with Steve Winne for the, you know, it was a legend. And and I was just like, wow, I'm privy to all of this. I'm learning and I'm learning and I'm learning and I probably got underpaid and I probably missed opportunities to do other things. But like, I look back on that now and I'm like, man, so when someone asks me like, you know, they're young and I'm like, what should I do with my career? I'm like, pick somewhere that you're learning a lot from and stay there too long. Like stay there too long. Make the boss come to you and go, dude, get out of here. Why are you still hanging around? Because you learned so much and that's disciples you have to be and I didn't realize it. I didn't really realize that I was being discipled. But you're totally right, man. And I think it's that way in ministry. It's that way in the church. It's that way in business. It's like if we don't, if we don't want to take the time to be formed and discipled, there's just not a lot of roots and that antifragilness can really easily take over. Yeah. So you know how I said I'm learning new things in a fresh time. The whole abiding thing Jesus talks about makes total sense now. Whereas before it was like, you better be near me. I'm like, I don't want to do my own thing. But now it's like, oh, I get obsessed. And when I'm just in your presence and just watch what you do, I learn so much. And so you absorb like the experience in the moment and that your knowledge now becomes understanding. And it's amazing. Like people would play like money. You know, lots of money to be around the access you have. It's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. So, and it was honestly, I believe it was the grace of God and what he taught me in ministry. Yeah. That was able to keep me there. Like it just was. It was those, it was godly principles. I didn't even know I was, I was working out. Now I do. But then I didn't, you know. Yeah. So it's just like you're just doing what you think is right moment. But looking back, it's like, hello, everything God said was right. Exactly. It's almost as if God, the principles that God outlines in his word, they actually help you flourish in life. It's like he designed life for something. Exactly. Who would have thought, who would have thought that he knows what's best? Yeah. Right. Yeah. So let's get into like what sucked you back into the church. Because, you know, that that was a call. Um, I'll put you know, like once I'm not, you suck me back in. I got I got tricked, man. I legitimately got tricked. No. Uh, man, I, you know, one thing I never didn't do, I struggled with my ideas around church. I honestly didn't spend some years not really serving God, but I stayed in church. I kept going every single week that I was able to. And just developed relationships and friendships. And honestly, it was the people in my church in LA that that didn't let me keep walking away from something that God had put in me. And kept just asking and giving me opportunity and, you know, believing in me. And, um, and then, you know, you just out of sheer friendship and loyalty is where it started. You know, I love my friends. I love what we're building together and I want to make it great. Um, and then yeah, man, it was just it was just like these slow steps. And then next thing, you know, I'm like leading one of our locations with my wife and absolutely loving it. You know, so that was that was it. I think it was seeing healthy ministry. Not perfect. Nothing's ever perfect. But, um, seeing healthy ministry, you know, and slowly, it was hard for me though. It was a long journey back. It was a lot of saying no, um, and a lot of like, I remember early days getting back in. We would like head to like leadership meetings and I would get panic attacks because I was just like, I don't, this is like, wait, you know, this is like crazy. And so I think, I think, you know, my pastor and they were just patient with me, like affirming in my call and affirming in my gift, but also patient, but also like not letting me be a victim if that makes sense. Like the amount of times, like, you're still going to let that experience keep you from doing what God has called you to do. Like, at some point it went from it went from like gracious patience to like coach, like, dude, enough is enough. You know, um, so honestly it was the people around me. It was legitimately the people around me that, um, and then my wife, you know, meeting my wife and seeing what God had done in her life and seeing how he was using her and and, uh, kind of just, yeah, all happened, all happened like that. Yeah, something on me would realize more and more recently. It's so easy to give up when you feel like, could I get to anyone or have no consequences, but you're surrounded by people that actually care about you. And it's much less about you care about them, but you care that they care about you and you're like, yeah, exactly. That's exactly right. I'll keep going. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think they're just a misunderstanding of community. Communities not a bunch of people. It's just like, you need friends. You need friends to be like, hey, I love you. Or like, I love you. Uh-huh. Yeah. I mean, dude, I had, I had, you know, so Jake who's, you know, my pastor, he's also one of my best friends, you know, in my mid 20s, I was, I was dating someone I shouldn't have been dating. And after about six months of me, just like knowing it and knowing it and him being patient one afternoon, I'm over at his house. And he's like, dude, I'm done listening to you about this. We're getting in the car right now. I'm driving you over there. And I'm sitting in the car until you, you, you break this thing off. Like, I'm done. He's like, I've been patient. I'm done. And I remember being like, holy crap. Like, this is a friend. This is like a brother, you know, and you're exactly right. It's like when you, when you have those people around you, you realize how impactful it really is. And you give them access. You know, you don't, you don't get, like, it's, it's ironing, sharpening iron. We want to make that sound really cute, but it's painful, man. It's painful. And, uh, but that's why community is essential, to why God made us for it. So I would be, I would be, gosh, I can't even imagine where I would be without that community that's been surrounding me for the last 10 years. And this also, I don't worry about AI that much because I can't imagine AI being friend. Like, it'll be an amazing assistant, but it can't be a friend that's going to call out your BS. No, no, no. Yeah. I mean, look, I think I think there's a, there's a subset of people who are isolated, who are honestly have some mental health stuff and some, you know, or some, some addictions. Like, I think there aren't, there is a subset of people that they can and will, like, I think I just read like Japan is like having an epidemic of that right now of like just, of like middle age single men who are, but, but I think, and I think we've got to obviously look at that. But like, as an overall broad, like exactly what you said, it's like people know real and people know fake. And, and so like an AI friend, I think is, is for the vast majority of people something that, you know, is not going to be a thing. Maybe I'm wrong, but I would agree with you on that. And this is why I kind of like what's happening when they're going even though you have a crazy situation open else. So, like Twitter was insane, had a few days. Can you imagine, can you imagine being a developer at OpenAI and holding millions of dollars in warrants that you are just about to be able to like liquidate? Like you've already bought, you've already bought your second home in your head. Like, you know what I mean? And all of a sudden it's like, wait a minute, is this going to happen? Or is this not going to happen? What a wild, well, that's like a season of succession all wrapped up in one weekend. Yeah, that's another conversation. People don't realize your stock means nothing. Brought to you IPO or you get like, you bought and it's just pieces of paper. So, so he's like saying like, this is why we like ship like a not so great product and we're iterating with the public because we want to have conversations and people who are concerned about this instead of railing on your soapbox. Join the conversation. People want to listen to you. You have a perspective that might be valuable, but don't be aggressive about it, explain your logic, right? Like we want that understand and make this safe. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's a wild man. That's just a whole other all the all the stuff around AI right now and what it can do and what it can't do and the understandings and the misunderstandings. It's a wild it's the wild west. It's literally the wild west right now. But as Christians like I have to remind people time and you know, I need to remind myself too, but we have safety net. Jesus like we already know the end. It's a revolution. So until now until revelation and if people actually read revelation, I've been reading that a lot lately just because of the whole thing. I think the beast is actually Asia. But you know, that's another story. But like there's like wild, wild things, things get really bad. And I think that's just a national progression. Human nature without question. Yeah, the world, the world, the world is going to get more chaotic and the church is going to get brighter. Yes, that's a thing. That's that to me is in you know, if we talk about sort of the theology around the book of revelation, there's so many questions and so many perspectives and yeah, all this kind of stuff, right? But I think if it's like, yeah, the church is going to get brighter. The world's going to get crazier. The church, that doesn't mean it's going to be easier. It doesn't mean it's going to be easy. But it means it's going to get brighter, you know. And it's funny because even in human history, like Christianity exploded under persecution and suffering. And I think us in the west, like we have a luxury of being in this country. The church is built in the climate of war. And I don't mean that in like like I mean that, you know, like it is built. It like you just said, it has gained its most ground. It has advanced. There's been seasons where it's had to go a bit underground. But even then, it was it grew and was powerful. So I think, you know, maybe the church, maybe it being a little bit harder is not a bad thing. Maybe it's a good thing for churches and Christians. Do you know Leonard Ravenhill? I love him. Man, he says, stamp eternity on my eyeballs because I think too often we're either too obsessed with the past or the present or our generational future, rather than like, oh, actually at the end end, right now. And like every sermon that's like gospel centered, yeah, you know, land on Christ. But I don't hear much about like the urgency of the last day coming. No, no. Yeah, we need we need a we need a Leonard Ravenhill chatbot. I'll tell you what, right now, we need a Leonard Ravenhill chatbot. And we need to make it free for all of Gen Z. I will. Yes. Yes. Gen Z. Here's the rule. You got to just just two years of straight Leonard Ravenhill sermons and see if that doesn't disciple you into some connected didn't play around, man. That guy preached hell. That guy preached salvation. That guy preached. I mean, yeah, anyways, don't get me. Don't get me started. I love it. No, I want to because here's the thing about your your like cat right now because it's consuming audio and video. And I know it was meant for podcasts, which is like crazy because I always thought if you just consumed all the podcasts of people, right, you can make a chatbot out of them, right? But instead of that, what if you just took all the best sermons and all the best people and just create a content out of that, right? And so now we have again, a wealth of information, but now how do you translate it? How do you apply it? What does it mean in my situation? So that's the more pastoral skills that, you know, we need to foster rather than like again, big content farm. 100%. 100%. I mean, you know, listen, I've made no apologies for saying like, you know, we're I mean, yeah, I want to build the largest repository of sermons in the world. And I want to do something with it. And I want to partner with the people who preach those sermons to do something with it. And I think that's really important. I think you're exactly right. You know, I think you're exactly right. It's like we haven't even begun to understand what we can do with all of this information and all of this data. And if we believe that the sermon, I believe the sermon is the greatest art form, it's the greatest art form ever created. And, um, you know, why would we not maximize its effectiveness in every way that we can? I also think because not a lot of people have experience, but entrepreneurial spirit, but like starting from scratch, they confuse the task, right, with skill. And I have to remind people, like, that's why I keep saying I was an unconventional pastor, because my skill set wasn't just to preach and teach than like shepherd. It was to solve problems like at the end of the day, all human beings are problem solvers, but like where we get lost is are we we define the moral code of what we think is good and evil, right? That's exactly right. God. Oh, you know, standard. And so like if we just get into this problem solving mode, and you can solve people's problem in whatever context, you're just so gold, because that's just still rare. Yeah, absolutely. And so I want to ask you like, what is your ministry of philosophy? Because I know you're really big on the local church, which I love. Okay. I'm like researching you. I was like, man, this is like my twin brother. Just a lot of things that are happening. I got to be best friends with this guy. Yeah, man. My ministry philosophy, man, that's changed a lot over the years. Yeah. So, you know, it's kind of funny, right? So like I sort of, it's funny. I was talking to a guy yesterday. And I said, it's funny. And I don't know what the reason is, but for whatever reason in God's sovereignty, he has over the course of my life put me in very close proximity with very successful men. For whatever reason, like having me around and want to teach me things. And so like, you know, I got saved at this mega church and the pastor who was the pastor there, who is still a hero of mine. And he served God well. And did he have his issues 100%. He also had a massive stroke in 1999 that I don't think that messed with a lot of stuff. So he's still an amazing guy, faithful, made some bad decisions, but as an amazing man, right? But, you know, I had a front row seat to a church that went from nothing to six, seven thousand people like that, who had weekly television shows worldwide. And he oversaw six thousand churches. And so I saw the mega church growth engine really up close as my introduction into ministry. And then, you know, pushed that against starting a church with 25 people in the career town neighborhood of LA. And, and, and then growing, we grew to four locations. And, you know, five years or something like that. And we were growing. And, and, and then thinking, I'm here going, man, I'm a great shirt. I'm a great pastor. I can grow a church. And I can get a bunch of young, cool people in LA involved in giving and serving and leading groups. And then didn't COVID hit. And, you know, we go from thinking we're the best pastors in the world too. Like, why are all the people in my church deconstructing their faith and posting heresy online and leaving the church and leaving just, just like. And I was like, oh, well, I was really good at like building church members, but maybe I wasn't great at discipling people. And so I'm not, listen, I want the church to grow. I want the church to be big and bold and creative and beautiful. But I think my ministry philosophy has become a lot more local, a lot more discipleship focused. And honestly, man, simple word and spirit. Are we teaching people the gifts of the spirit and how to commune with the spirit? Are we teaching them the Bible, right? Like, you know, do they understand the scripture? And are we teaching them how important community is? And are we just, are we based, are we, I mean, like that's the, that's the philosophy now. It's just like word, spirit, discipleship. And, you know, if it grows, it grows. I think, I think what we run the risk of coming out of sort of like the boomer, seeker-sensitive mega church model that was a tractional. And I like to talk to a lot of young guys all the time. We were planting churches and it's like, we also can't forget to be missional. Like, we also can't forget that the gospel does need to expand. And we do want our neighbors and co-workers to get saved and planted in a local church. And so I think we're going to have to, I think that's going to be the challenge of the next 10 years of this generation of like church planters is like keeping a big missional focus while also being very super, you know, focused discipleship. It's just reorienting. I think church has become church is not the evangelism mentioned, right? The number one reason we do church is to glorify God and to edify the saints and then to reach the world in that order. And so I think that, that guess maybe that's my ministry philosophy is like, what does church exist to do? First of all, glorify God and worship Him. And our worship songs we sing should reflect that are our sermons that we preach are the first and foremost to glorify God. And then to edify the saints and then to reach the world. So I think if you're doing it in that order, I mean, at least that's my ministry philosophy. Yeah, I don't know if that makes sense or not. But it just makes so much simpler than we make it out to me. No, I love that you said it was simplicity. Like I bought the domain the simple gospel.org. I love that. I love that. It's fun even for even my own journey. He did not send me to successful people. He sent me to disaster. Yes. By senior faster, the last like full time job ahead. No, that was a parish trooper. Like he just like put me in crazy situations. And I would just like weave empty. That's a gift, man. That's a gift. Yeah, it sucks. But here's the thing. So like, it helped me with boot camp too. Because coding, honestly, anyone who went to Westminster, Hebrew to winter, like intensive is mind boggling. At that, at that. Coding was harder. Because refrained your understanding in a logical way. And it was just so hard because I just didn't think that way. And honestly, the only way you can get into one of the faint companies, if you do data structures, like you understand how things work and then they test you, right? And you think these are so stupid. Never use this in real life in code. Ever, right? It's just complete conceptual. And then once you get more advanced, you're like, oh, actually, you see these patterns everywhere. Right? And so this whole idea with the whole like my spiritual intelligence idea is like, there are patterns in the Bible that are matching with how the universe works, right? When you understand that one thing, now you can like build this logical tree of like, oh, this means this, this means business, this means this. And all this to say, I feel like because of like the Renaissance and the rational movement, we always thought like, oh, you need to have information and memorize everything so that you're prepared for every situation. But again, in entrepreneurship, you're like, you have no idea what's coming. So you better have like core principles that apply to any context so that when you're there, you're like, okay, what's most important to us, these things, okay? Now that these we believe in the things, how does this connect to a solution? And that's just it freed me from having to remember everything. So as long as again, I had just very simple patterns and core principles from. And I think that's always in this. And then people are amazed by like, oh, how did you say it? I'm like, I'm going to come to be honest. I'm like, really dumb. Like, I'm not smart. The only thing I have is just like, I just remembered the pathway of this is the principle. And this is how I understand it. It just sounds good. So I love this. Yeah, yeah, that's great, man. That's so cool. I love it. Oh, even to your panic attacks a little bit. Totally. Absolutely. Yeah. Like, did you always have them or it was just the industry and how did you deal with it? Man, that's a great question. Um, yes, I have my first panic attack when I was eight years old. Oh, wow. Yeah. So, so my father, as far back as we know in the dad side of my family, the men have struggled, struggled with either severe depression or severe anxiety. Um, and so thankfully, I had a dad when I was eight and had a panic attack for the first time at school. He knew what was happening. You know what I mean? Like, it was weird because I would have been 1994, 95. I think it was in the fourth grade. And now the beauty of a dad, the beauty of a family knowing how to deal with that also just means you automatically deal with it the way they did. So, you know, I mean, I was on Prozac when I was nine, a lot, um, and clonopin when I was nine. So think about, think about that. That was the solution. Um, and, you know, I'd been on and off medication for most of my life. Um, uh, and I never had any like the crazy horror stories you hear with people about that. And it just, honestly, it like worked and helped, you know, like at and then level that I, I, I used it. So, but so all that to say, it's been, it's basically been like this year, it would go years without anything and then all of a sudden it would come back again. Um, you know, even as of late, it's funny. Like you mentioned listening to me, my sermon, that was the last sermon I've preached because I started getting panic attacks while preaching. And I've preached and I've preached thousands of sermons, hundreds and hundreds of sermons. And for whatever reason, and there would always be like hints of that, you know, but, but not in any way. And you know, it got to the place about a year ago where I just said, okay, I'm gonna take a break because it's literally so miserable. And I'm actually not even clearly articulating what it was. I want to clearly articulate like it's funny if you talk about that message you're talking about. I pretty much just read off of an iPad because the whole time I'm literally like, I'm gonna faint at any moment, you know, and I try and everything. I mean, you know, I stood up in front of the church and I said, hey, if I'm up here, I'm probably, you know, and so I'm actually right now currently in the process of, you know, we just moved some trying to find someone to go see because I think I know what causes them, at least the preaching part of them. But that's the only part of my life now that I have panic attacks or really any kind of anxiety at all. I think I've like really over the years done everything I can to try and like deal with the problem before it creeps back up again, you know. So it's been a long time. It's been a long journey. So the sort of like general anxiety is, you know, dinosaur like general anxiety disorder, right? So that was like kind of the struggle in my whole life. Now the specific panic attack thing attached to preaching goes back to, and it's funny. It took me a long time to over some therapy actually remembering this moment. But when I was 20 years old, I was leading a young adult ministry at my church. And you know, when you like, I, it's funny. I actually never told anyone this. So this is, this is funny to even be talking about this, but I love it. You know, you know, like if you go like a whole day without eating and you get like the shakes that feeling and you sort of like, you'll faint. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But like, you know, like your blood sugars down and you're like, the high, like, so one night I was, I had gotten up to teach at this young adult ministry. And I like got hit with this like a dizzy spell. Like nothing, actually nothing mental about it. It was just like purely physical. Like I had eaten. I probably drank much coffee and I, the whole sermon for the first time I was like literally the whole time I was teaching. I was like, I'm gonna faint at any moment. And for whatever reason, like that thing, which is weird because anxiety, you know, there are these like triggers to it, especially the panic attacks. And so, so what it did was like in print, it like, it kind of like turned this thing into this basically being anxious about being anxious. And so the fear is literally like, I'm gonna get up there. And I'm gonna have a panic attack, which then leads to, you know, so it's like, it's like this death spiral basically. So that's actually what my doctor thinks is like the genesis of that. Because speaking in front of people doesn't make me nervous. Communicating doesn't make me nervous. I feel very at home in front of a group of people teaching, talking, whatever. So, wait, I'm sorry. You're saying this all started just that day where you physically felt that's what that's that's that's legitimately that's legitimately what because because like something kind of just imprinted out. Yeah. And so when you, you know, so at least that's that's what we think currently. I'm still I'm kind of like in the process now of really trying to work on it because teaching is something I want to get back to as soon as possible. But it just with starting that with that mixed with starting the company, things were just too crazy to be able to allocate the right amount of time to do that, you know, so. No, that makes a lot of sense to me because something that I've been on this journey of like figuring out my own triggers and traumas. It's like I've heard it all my life like it's like a child that trouble, like a child. But when I really think about it, I'm like, oh, so like my issue is like I become a terrible person when I make it. And most people are like, oh yeah, not this like no, like because I'm like very emotionally all in or all out. That's just who I am. Like I can go from 0 to 100 in like a split second. And so I realized a lot of that was embedded in me because I grew up scared because I grew up like like not a great life. Yeah. And so guy who's been a guy who's been a mentor to me in ministry said when a man gets when a man's default is anxiety or anger, there's something deeper going on. Like that's the check. That's the check. Oh, he's coming up. Yeah. And he said he usually manifests in one or the other anxiety or anger. I just always see that. Like my anxiety, it's not anxiety. I think maybe I grew up anxious, but I hardened myself and I grew up in the 90s. So it's like, we just, oh, exactly. I was like, I didn't know whatever, but I was always with church people, but like, you know, I was like independent. And I grew up with guys that we just like ragged on each other and curse each other. But like we love each other. Like and so like, you can't do it to any of us, but we can always do it to each other. Do it to yeah. So it's like it was no, no need to be hard, right? And now when I got into ministry, I'm like, what do you talk with all these self-doos? We would get really hurt. And now I understand, okay, that's just not how you want to shepherd people in the people like by offended them. But like, I never thought it was a problem until like, yeah, this past year when I had to really kill start killing my ego and, you know, totally God thing. And really like figure out where this anger is coming from. It's crazy because I feel like what's happening now. And again, I have no evidence for this. So this totally, like you literally have to like create new neural synapses. Anytime you have a new memory or you refrain it. And here's the crazy thing. I really like, I mean, I learned recently because I've been on a rabbit hole with YouTube about the brain. Like all thoughts go through your emotion first. So every time you think of something, even if you don't feel it, it's because like you haven't applied a meaning to it. But when there's meaning, that starts flooding. And so I have to like fight this like, and it's funny how you say you get anxious about being anxious. I get angry that I'm like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And family is like always the perfect people to trigger me. And it's fun. It's two years I was in Atlanta. I was super comfortable with God drag me back home to the one person that drives me crazy. And so like I've been doing a lot of repenting and I'm still not there. So I'm like kind of like ignoring her too. Because like I love my mom. Right. Anything I terrible. I say it's just complete honestly. Because if anyone else treated me that way, like you'd be dead. So this is how I like how I deal with her. But like, yeah, like she just doesn't know how to not be a mom and let go. But yeah, she just that's a mental area. That's hilarious. You know, actually, what I found to be super outful is on all these topics is a Queen's local pizza scarrow. He is a book called emotionally healthy spirituality, emotionally healthy discipleship. And his devotional has his 40 day devotional that's been super helpful for me for all that stuff. Whether it's personal ministry, anxiety, frustration, fear, you name it, his resources have been gosh, they've been super super helpful. So here's another hot take. I think people misunderstand scripture because if you actually just read it as it's like happening in its own timeline and not apply meaning after the fact, then things make a lot more sense. And you know, we love to prove texts. No, we we love to prove text. It's not even just proof text. It's like proof context thing. Do you know anyway? Well, it's the, I mean, well, dude, but the thing is is like, you know, it's like we have an entire generation of people who've been taught to read the Bible first. What does it mean to me versus what does it mean? I mean, think about like as much as I love devotionals, like the devotional movement taught us how to go, what does Jeremiah 2911 mean to me? Forget about what it meant. Forget about what it actually meant. Forget about what the author was actually saying in the context in which they were saying it. If we read scripture through just simply what we're trying to make, like what it means to us and applies to our life, we're like, we're actually missing the beauty of scripture, right? And it's not that it's not that doing that's bad. It's just that we've got to try and find out what's actually being said before we try and interpret it to what it means for us, you know what I mean? So I love, I love what you're saying. So let me blow your mind a little bit because I now think that's even a little too far. I think we need to start with what does it say? Just even translation lies. Is this coherent in the modern understanding? And then the next question that has been really helpful is like, why is this here? Not what does it mean? It's like like what relevance does this fact have? Like greatest thing, genealogies. I'm like always like trying to get through it and not reading it or like freezing through it. But I started using chat GP3 to be like, okay, what does this word and Hebrew mean? And you get all of these understanding and you realize, oh, you know how you say like, pop a day like the name is important because the name gives it an identity because it helps the person hearing the name something. So every name in the Old Testament has a meaning behind it because it's like a character study. And you're just like, oh my gosh, it matters. So I've been like reading slowly all the genealogies, what it means. And like like came, it means like of substance or like filled with something, but able is like paper. And it's like this, oh, like Moses is helping us understand like there was something inside Kane. But he was more pure and you're just like, whoa, I did not understand that for at all. And this is why I want you to be successful because I want your thing to like extract that for people to understand like, oh, yeah, the way we've been reading it, yeah, it was helpful up to now. But like we have so much more information about the human mind and the emotion and who we are. Yeah, when was the last time you changed your mind up? Yesterday. Yeah, what was it? The number that I would sell my business for. It went up. Yeah, it went up. So like, what led you to change your mind? Like what new information did you have to be like, oh, make your recotitor? Part of the spiritual part of it was practical. So, you know, I mentioned that my daughter was born and we had some serious health problems with her. So she was born. She was fine. We brought her home. Two days after having her home, she woke up and she was projectile vomiting green. So we rushed her back to the hospital and she had intestinal malrotation. So her intestines, it twisted around on each other three times. And this was kind of right in the midst of this business kind of blowing up. And you know, when you have momentum like that, people were hitting us up and they were wanting to invest. And she should go this route or go that route or do this or do that. And you know, and so my daughter is in the NICU. And after the surgery, we knew she was going to be fine. She was in the NICU for nine days. And you know, when you're new dad and you're trying to figure out what it means to be a dad and a husband, you're, for me anyways, I went into like protection and safety mode. And so in my mind, what I didn't realize is I had gone from like I actually want to build something that changed the world to I need to provide for my family. What's the quickest way for me to do that? You know, and it caused me to frankly waste that much of time, waste time negotiating with people who wanted to invest in our company that had I not been in the midst of that. I literally would have had one meeting and said, great people, not the right partner, not aligned visions, but stability, stability, stability, stability, you know, at the same time, we've since launched the product. And I'm actually seeing that our vision for the product continues to grow and iterate. And I'm going, oh wow, okay, we don't just have like a content repurposing tool. We have something that can unlock a whole new way of, you know, millions of pastors sharing their sermons with billions of people. And so yeah, it was part business, part internal. And then honestly, just part reaffirmation of a calling of like, you know, am I sure this is going to be successful? No, but I know that God asked me to build it. So I also just have to leave success up to him and not try and make sense of it in my own intellect, if that makes sense. And you know that, right? It's tough. And in the world of tech and startups, like, it's all about information and new information and changing this and what about this and what's the market and all this kind of stuff. And it's like, it can be really easy to get caught up in that. So, you know, the AI, the AI space is a crazy place to build because you're changing your mind all the time. And you know, when when open AI, deaf day comes and people that are interested in investing in your company, go, wait a minute, what's cool? What's the platform risk and what about this and what about that? So you're constantly having to go like this. And I think just even yesterday, I was talking to a brilliant guy and he just asked me that question, what's the, why are you building this and what's the number you sell for? And as I started to talk it out, it was like this part of me came back of like, no, this is a vision. And I got to remind myself how I was thinking about this when I first built it, not not like in the midst of this. So yeah, I know that's the kind of answer you were looking for. Yeah. That was perfect because that that like clearly resonates because I think people confuse truth and ideas. Ideas are constantly changing and iterating, right? But a truth. And I don't mean like an absolute like, yes, there's objective truth, but like an unchanging thing that is timeless. Yes. And something that is harmless is just human nature. And that's how human beings, because if you really think about it on a very simple level, everything in the world is made up. That's not created from God, right? Break about it, right? Because someone saw something, right? And I'm not getting into like a philosophy rabbit hole now. And it's shocking that like Aristotle is the father of science. And all he did was take all of his teachings and understanding and then he started observing things and like, oh, I wonder why it's like that? I wonder and he started writing notes and people like, oh, this is great. And they expanded on it. And so it really just comes out to, if you understand people, that's the game, guys. That's the game. It just understands because people will never change. That's the truth. That's how we hear a lot. Yeah. So thanks for that. Of course. What are you hoping for at Fecy? Man, that's a great question. I think, you know, when I was, it would just chat with you guys for our podcast just before this. And I think what, even just in that conversation with you guys, what I really felt excited about was, yes, of course, the product. And yes, of course, what you're unlocking. But again, I think it's changing the narrative, taking back the narrative on what it means to be a person who has vocationally given yourself to church and to ministry and helping people connect to and work for healthy churches who want to take care of them and want to, you know, like I just, I think that is so needed. It is so needed. And I think when I look at that, I look at the space you guys are cultivating and the community and I think that if that is sort of the byproduct, the business will be successful and you guys are going to help churches. But I think if it's a place where somebody who feels like, I know what it's like to get to a place working at a church where I go, I don't know if this is sustainable for me to keep doing practically. And I don't know what to do about it. And I think if you guys can keep people in the ministry who have been called to ministry, you are doing such an eternal thing. You're doing so much more than just like helping churches with a task. You're literally like, like keeping the body of Christ moving and thriving. And so that's what I hope for. I hope that that's the place you guys can be where someone can go, okay, maybe I need to make a change or maybe I need to bring someone on to the staff or whatever. But I know that if I can go here, the kind of people that are a part of this community, are people that are like believers in the church and believers in keeping people building the local church who are called to do it. Thanks. How can we be praying for you? Well, you know, we're sleep training our child at the moment. So I think, you know, I, two young kids, man, 10, uh, two-year-old and a five-month-old is crazy. So I work, you know, I'm leaving a start-up, my wife works it up. I had a start-up, so life's pretty crazy. We just moved across country. So I think just, you know, a season of some breast and normalcy would be, would be amazing. So that would be, that would be the prayer, I would say. All right. Thanks, Mike. This was great. We're definitely going to talk again. I hope so, man. I love it. All the things are phenomenal. Nothing in your mind. I love it. It's the increased things. He told it is. Dude, it's been, it's been awesome. Honestly, an honor to be here to chat with you and we'll keep doing it for sure. That's it for the podcast. Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. The Faithly Digital platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection, foster collaboration, and promote growth within the church and ministry space. Remember to subscribe, rate and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you. Stay tuned for more uplifting tales from the Frontlines of Ministry on the Faithly podcast. Stay bold, stay faithful, and never underestimate the power of your own story.