Beautiful, Disappointing, Hopeful - Drew Hyun

When an opportunity came for us to co-purchase this property as well as to have it be a vision for the city Yes, I had a heart and a vision to kind of open our doors so that various ministries and Organizations could benefit from it my wife as a volunteer or she has spearheaded all the renovations and the operations of the building and and of course You know come up with a plan so that it could be accessible to so many nonprofits in Turkish or any city So I'm very deeply indebted to her for that. There's a lot of great work happening here But then like there's flooding down in the basement It's me and her basically mopping out a flooded basement spending hours cleaning up And of course we've had wonderful people in our church community who have volunteered their time and energy as well Which has been wonderful. So beauty and disappointment. It's part of it all Welcome to faithfully stories the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from Conversations with church leaders as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and Every day life join us as we delve into their challenges moments of encouragement and answered prayers The Faithfully Stories podcast is brought to you by faithfully an online community committed to empowering church leaders pastors staff and volunteers learn more at faithfully.co Get ready to be uplifted and inspired as we unveil the heart of faith through stories From the front lines of ministry on the faithfully stories podcast So Drew, thank you so much for being on a podcast. I really appreciate it You were a guest preacher at my church's retreat like 10 years ago. Yes, I don't know if you remember Yeah, I tell you remember so for me to be interviewing you now with your new book having just been out It's like a really surreal full circle experience for me So it's a real privilege. It's a real honor. I'm just really glad to be talking to you So thank you. Oh, thank you. Well, the honors online So and thank you for all the work that you and faithfully do For pastors and leaders around the world. Yeah, it's it's been a lot of fun We've learned a lot. We've grown a lot in the past couple of years But there's still so much more to do so thanks. Thanks for being a part of that I felt that in reading your new book that I learned so much about your personal journey Have you been sharing it along the way or it was this the first time you really brought people into like what you've been through personally Yeah, I've shared different bits and pieces of it and I wanted to share my story mostly because I think when most people meet me initially especially if they're not part of a church They'll usually assume oh you grew up Because you grew up in a church. That's why you're Christian and I often tell them well hold on It's actually the opposite. I'm a Christian despite Growing up in the church and in the book. I also share a bit of my story with my father To later on in life when I was about in middle school That's when he decided to actually make this turn into vocational ministry and And it was that was a really hard turn for me and our family mostly because like From who my dad would project to be especially as like a preacher and then later on as an author and a very well-known figure with in Korea and what we experience at home The the violence and the the pain and the feeling of unsafety like all of that Let us to have a lot of doubts about Christian faith And so I often tell people it's not because I grew up going to church and the fact that my dad is a pastor that I'm a Christian today It's actually despite growing up in a church and my father being a pastor So wow well like I I was really blown away by your vulnerability and sharing all of that In print for and like inviting the world into that pain that you've healed from but we're all still healing from stuff, right? um What was that? Oh, so you do say in the book that you and your dad are in a great place like you're so grateful for your relationship with him today Um, but you had to tell him that you were gonna write all of this right? What was that conversation like? Oh, it was incredibly painful well especially because in Korean culture There certainly is it's a shaman honor culture and so my father being a first generation Korean immigrant to this country As well as having a significant platform in Korea as a minister and an author um, I was really scared and I shared quite a bit about my own journey with my dad and my dad and I have been through a lot and Yeah, later on in the book. I talked about in the chapter on greeting I talked about my own journey of grief forgiveness the transformation from anger, wrath, retaliatory kind of vengeance towards grieving and hopefully expanding in love and uh like you mentioned my my dad and I would have the best relationship we've ever had Just kind of surreal to say and a lot of that is I think just a lot of work that's been done behind the scene um, but yeah, it was it was definitely um Scary to bring that to him and I remember after I wrote uh, the first draft and I sent it to my brothers And I said hey guys, I have three brothers and I said hey, I'm Gonna share this in this book that I'm writing um What do you think and by the way? I'm gonna float it to dad just to get his okay and and They were oh they were a little bit um, taken because they didn't quite know how my father would react as well and um, but when I wrote it to him He surprisingly was very open. Yeah, and um He said I wish I was a better dad when you were younger wow and uh like To get that message from him. It's just it goes against All that I had experienced from him as a child and the way that I thought he would have responded Uh, but I think that goes to show kind of the work around forgiveness mutuality love and grieving that's been done in our own lives and journeys um But for sure it was nerve-racking when I was gonna send it to him. Yeah, wow. So I mean I'm a mother. I've got a seven five and two year. Yes, and I would like to think I'm really patient But I lose it on my kids sometimes and if one of my kids were to later in life say mom I'm gonna write about this time really mad at me like Oh, yeah, you know, and I don't I'm not like you know in the shame and honor culture So I can only imagine like the amount of healing and grace and redemption that has Happened in your relationship with your father and in his life Um, it's really it's really powerful So recently we had pastor Adam Dursan on the podcast He talked about um, a failed succession at his family's church That led to seven years. I'm not speaking with his father that led to after seven years reconciliation So I'm just I guess I'm just wondering like um, if you have thoughts on that thoughts on family brokenness and ministry In particular, yeah, I mean I And obviously I can only speak from my own experience and having also been through a succession process as well Prior to us starting hope first on the front of like family dynamics um Yeah, you know, I think there's something about ministry that If we're not careful especially in the vocation of ministry that's so easy To present like a public face versus what's happening in private And of course we see this in the Pharisees and the religious leaders of Jesus's day And how that continued kind of hypocrisy can continue And so I think and now being a pastor myself so you know granted like how having this whole journey with my own dad And how choosing going to vocational ministry um And like you also not being the perfect parent um, sorry not like I know you'd put much for I think um I think walking the line of um having an authentic kind of spirituality um Both in public and in private I think is one of the hardest tasks and Yet it's what Jesus constantly calls us to I think the sermon on the mount gets that kind of Like a certain fabric of spirituality that goes beyond the public facing Doos and doves projected images of what's right wrong and that sort of thing and so So I think on one hand it makes sense that um You know satan and the enemy would want to To do whatever uh satan would want to do to disrupt families to destroy ministries Um, and that's why I think there's such a vigilance. I think that is needed to be um hopefully as grounded humble um pursuant after god and the right things as possible um, and so you know, I work with an organization called the motion healthy disciples And so much of our ministries around that how do we have integrity and you know the word integrity it comes from It's the same as a word integer. So like a whole number. So like a wholeness. How do we live with this kind of wholeness um And so I think that in itself is one of the biggest challenges and calls and invitations of our day for ministry leaders um, and at the same time like at succession brings about a whole another wave of like challenges Um, deep work that needs to be done for it to be done while and so yeah, so um, I could talk a whole lot about succession as well But yeah, that's um, but I really I love what you shared about the families and amic and about Your public versus your private self about bringing those two things together I think that's something that whether people are minister or not I think that's something that we all sort of work towards yeah, right and and need to mature into um You talked in the book about claiming the faith that you grew up in um in undergrad that Berkeley Was that also the moment you knew you'd be doing into ministry? The church that we grew up in had this awful church split And then my father was a minister But our home life was so far from what I thought would be an ideal picture of life You know Christian love um, but the youth group that we were part of We just met some tremendous youth leaders people that we always wanted to be alive So remember actually in my youth days um, there were constantly invitations for anyone that was interested in life vocational ministry And so I remember thinking oh if if If ever I were to do something I initially I wanted to be a teacher But then I thought I wanted you this Uh, but then after those high school years and now here I am in college and I'm really wrestling and I was taking classes on Bible literature and on religious studies and studying various different religions and during that time um, I was at that point. I was just wrestling with my faith and um Once I made that decision though to follow Jesus that despite the pain of my past Believe in that Jesus was true and compelling and worth following Um, it was shortly thereafter that I realized I loved while I was You know a student at Berkeley. I was I just loved ministry. I loved people. I loved Inviting people to a deeper relationship with Jesus. And so um, um, it was I can't remember when when but it was shortly They're after that I was like I think I would like to do this vocational. Wow. Yeah, well, so we've interviewed a lot of pastors and ministry leaders podcast and I've lost count of the number of people who said it was really my youth pastor my youth pastor and the youth leaders I mean, it's incredible um It's just it's really striking like the impact right like people look at the lead pastor Right, there's so much focus on the lead pastor but the youth pastor. Yes, it's like planting these seeds for the next generation of ministry Yes, um, did you work in youth when you entered ministry? Is that where you started? You know, I so I started in intern at New Life Fellowship and Queens And I mean, I was doing everything from setting up for mom's groups Volunteering for our kids ministry Going on youth retreats. I was doing just about everything that an intern would do and I love that um So yeah, so my most and I did Interestingly enough. I did when I was in high school. I would volunteer with some of the middle schoolers Um back in California and then when I was in New York and working at New Life as an intern. I really um Was able to experience what ministry was like to various different demographics, which was so great and so Yeah, so that was that was such a rich um Learning time for me working with various different age groups Kids youth, but I was never the youth pastor. I was an intern who then went into becoming like a community pastor Becoming like a teaching pastor and that sort of thing. Um, so you grew up in LA. Yeah Now you've been in New York City for 25 years. I think it's safe to say you're in New York. I'm so I hope so Um, so why New York brought you to well, I mean, I loved I just loved the energy of the city. I loved the grittiness of the city um And Los Angeles and I love LA and I have two brothers who still live there and um, I love visiting LA, but there LA um And I used to just think the world of LA. I just thought LA was where I wanted to be um, but I visited New York for the first time The summer between my junior and senior in summer 2000 And I just remember coming to New York City and being like there's no place like New York and The diversity the energy Uh, like I mentioned the grittiness There's something about LA where I don't know And I know this sounds kind of weird, but there's a certain safety there That I felt living in LA and it's not like I lived in the best neighborhood or anything It was basically, but there's a certain kind of protective way that I could go about life and community Um That I can't do so here in New York Like every single part of New York I'm interacting with both the beauty of the city as well as the brokenness of the city And the people that I'm rubbing shoulders with on the subway when I'm walking around with whether it's in the various boroughs of the city There's just such a beautiful story and collision of stories that um that I love about the city and um And then of course, you know, just believing that God was working here and um So it is a bit surreal to say that yeah that I've lived most of my life here in New York um as opposed to in California when I grew up, but I definitely love Uh, love New York City. I've changed my sports allegiance teams which my my my brothers give me a whole lot of um Uh dirt about but anyhow um, so you talk about the beauty and the brokenness and you talk about being like amidst all of that I think for most New Yorkers Um something that you hear people talk about all the time is like their apartment right people are always looking for an apartment They just moved or they're looking to move. There's always something that they wish for in their apartment And for most people, it's about escaping that tension of the beauty and the brokenness having a place to retreat to But she's done the opposite of that like you live here at the hub Which you've set up to be your home as well as this ministry center that welcomes all into it Um, I just see so much beauty in it. Um, I'm so encouraged by it. Can you talk a little bit about why the hug? Yeah, no, I yeah, and so the building here, which is uh, uh, our church co owns this building and we live here in a parts and edge space and um, I honestly most credit goes to my wife She was the one that had a vision for this building um, I had a vision for just having a space as you know kind of ministry in New York It's so difficult and so costly and so when an opportunity came for us Uh, to co-purchase this property Um, as well as to have it be a vision for the city um Yes, I had a heart and a vision to kind of open our door so that various ministries and organizations could benefit from it Um, but my wife was she was the one who was able to execute all of it and was able to make this vision kind of become a reality Um, we do love living here Um, I know that and a lot of that is my wife as a volunteer or she has spearheaded all the renovations and the operations of the building and And of course, you know come up with a plan so that it could be accessible to so many nonprofits and churches here in the city So I'm very deeply embedded to her for that um, and at the same time like anything in life. It's beautiful in this point So there's a lot of great work happening here, but then like oh, you know when they were there's flooding down in the basement It's me and her basically mopping up um You know a flooded basement and uh spending hours cleaning up and of course we've had wonderful people and our church can We do have volunteered their time and energy as well, which has been wonderful So but union disappointment. It's part of it all What a picture of what it looks like to serve the kingdom right beauty, but also mopping up the base. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just it comes along with the territory in the ministry. Yeah So um Drew you're a pastor two pastors. You've been a pastor here for two and a half decades um, but you're also well known here as you know a pastor to pastors um Can you tell me in 25 years of ministry here? Yeah um How How has it changed? How has ministering to people in New York City changed? Mm The people who started churches and have been passing here since the 80s and 90s I give them much props because they really paved the way for us and we stand on their shoulders and obviously the generations before that Other ones, but I really say because in the 80s and 90s people are leaving city And so in many ways like being staying in the city or moving to the city to start churches and ministries it Like I just give so much respect To the pastors and leaders who have done that because they were doing it when the city wasn't cool In fact the city was dangerous. It was seen as like this place that God had forsaken and yet they moved in Um, I feel like being a pastor. I've come into this kind of golden age where like In New York City where um The city's cool Like I mean even post coded. I mean sure there's been a blip. I mean I came right before 9-11 And you know much was made about the demise of New York after 9-11, but the city became really this incredibly um Urban hotspot Globally influential continue to be globally influential then of course COVID happens and then again The rumors were that New York would need it's demise, but um New York is like this really attractive World changing kind of city and so in many ways like um, I just feel so honored to be here and And at the same time I also you know Uh Think that the prior generation had it much tougher. So but with that said I think there's dynamics of the city that will always make me The gelatin cost the discomfort um I mean those alone just make it really difficult to be here. Yeah, and um I think for ministers that are coming here. I hope But they come actually want one friend um, he mentioned he said you know the way to survive minister in New York Is you almost have to move here with the mentality of an immigrant? Yeah And uh, it was interesting for him to say that because he said as an immigrant what I do is I move here But I don't like I bought a one-way ticket and I'm not going to go anywhere else and he said um If I don't come with it that mentality like I've left some place as a as a deep desire to plant roots here and to raise a family here and it's gonna be really hard I don't know that when the difficulties of the city come like I'll easily want to split from this place What I found in New York that's different from other cities is there is a certain kind of uh camaraderie that comes from all of our backs are against wall none of us feel like we're flourishing there You know, so we kind of need each other which um again makes this a place that I want to do ministry and be in the trenches with others here Yeah, yeah, yeah, so I I've spoken to some pastors who have moved into the city or who haven't I told the city Yeah, I'm dream about the city and I get the sense and talking to these pastors that They sense that the Lord wants to write a new story. Yeah, especially in the city. Do you get that sense? Yeah No, absolutely, and I think I mean I see the threads. I think having been here so long. Yeah Like obviously my my spiritual followers pizza's out and kind of a deep work That Pete did and that new life fellowship represents which which is Really the the convergence of so many different streams of Christian tradition. There's this jesus and you know strongly committed to the scriptures strongly valuing jesus in mercy um a dependence a conscious dependence on the whole spirit as well as this integration Of emotional health and contemplative spirituality Like in many ways like I see that convergence that's happening in the city I see the legacy of someone like tenkeller and redeemer and they're kind of the generous spirit to look To want to hopefully catalyze a movement of churches in the city um and just the humble disposition that ten carried um and so now I think that the friendship that exists within different pastors here in the city um I think is really again standing on the shoulders of folks Like ten and p and others um and hopefully the way that we do ministry is with um integrity authenticity and A real connectivity and teamwork that Is just kind of has a non competitive posture to it. So that's my hope of what's brewing and what I think is brewing But I do think there's been a conscious dependence on the spirit to moving radical ways. Yeah, and um So I'm I I feel so excited to be in the city at this time. I feel so grateful um for these four runners who have gone before us Yeah, yeah, that's really beautiful Um, so Drew you've mentioned emotionally healthy disciples should be a couple of times in pizzeria um and before we started taping you shirt with me that you're taking on a new role there Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, yeah So Pete and I I first moved to the city of 2001 to get internet new light fellowship left new light fellowship in 2011 started hope in 2012 and then um Pete and I overleast 24 years now like we've known each other and worked very closely with each other and I How often to tell them that I appreciate it emotionally discipleship which emotionally discipleship when we use that phase it simply means um Discipleship that goes beneath the surface And that values of slow down spirituality and so I after I left new life I would regularly write him an email and I would say Pete first. I'm sorry I would say I'm sorry for not Like listening more intently to the things you have to say um, I was almost you know, I Because I was swimming in the waters like I couldn't see how important and then I would write thank you Thank you because there's no way I'd be where I am as a pastor without And his influence as well as some of the pain of church planting and so my wife and I like Just the kind of marriage we have the kind of family we have and Hopefully the kind of grounded rooted Miss we have I hope is really due to his discipleship him in Jerry's gazelle And so that whole journey has led me I so deeply value emotionally discipleship I really think that especially for New York City and even for movement because most time people often Bifurcate move like mission and health and they think you can't have both And I but I really think that the pathway towards greater mission especially citywide is emotionally healthy discipleship so All that to say yeah, I'm I'm walking into a succession with Pete now Around emotionally discipleship. So I'll be stepping in currently. I'm the executive director I don't know what my title is going to be but Peter's Pete's moving into a founder mentor role um Which I'm very excited about so we'll still be working together. Um, I'll just kind of be sliding into a role while still leading hope church Is very important for me to really I love being a pastor and so I think valuing both uh Being able to be a local church pastor who's also involved in discipleship And involved in hopefully wanting To embody a culture of a much healthy discipleship and mission yeah, um is really important to me Wow, so how long and maybe you guys haven't discussed this yet, but how long do you think this transition will take? Well, yeah, in October we're having uh Actually just wait the first time that I'm sharing this publicly, but in October we're going to be doing a Passing the torch kind of you name at new life fellowship where ritual Otis is a dear friend He will Also be there and Pete and we'll be inviting different folks to this A night of celebrating not only the ministry of peon jerseys zero But also of looking to the future of of a much healthy discipleship globally Yeah, yeah looking ahead Yeah, um once you sort of fully take the mantle are there Dreams that you already have of taking it to different countries or in different directions or offering more Yes, but right now it is a there is a global footprint that emotionally healthy discipleship has One of our biggest calls right now and it's part of the transition actually Because we're moving from founder where Pete was and Pete was so instrumental in the content that really shaped the values of emotional healthy discipleship and in many ways the content Whether it's a podcast the courses that have been created the books and resources um But we're actually moving towards content to now um different levels of church engagement We're we're inviting churches and pastors and leaders into deeper levels of community and coaching And so there's actually two different levels of churches that we're introducing so while there were course churches Now we're inviting churches to go deeper because we're we're really asking the question like how do we go beyond you know Most people they're like, oh, yeah, we're healthy because we're running this course. We read the book But we like to know that's that's not enough, you know There's actually Ways in which we can begin to embody a culture and how do we do that So that at every level of the church whether it's in kids ministry or youth ministry or the elderboard There's a certain level of emotional health that kind of runs through how we go about things And so that's kind of the future is how do we come alongside churches? To go deeper into that conversation um, so Drew let's take it back to your book. Yeah Who are you thinking of when you work this book? Yeah, I was thinking of you know as a pastor I often get asked by people like what is Christianity about or I get asked by some of our parishioners like What can I recommend to my friend or my coworker who doesn't isn't a Christian and so Normally whenever I'm asked that question, I think of three categories like first. I'm like is this person kind of An intellectual type who wants evidence and life and then I think of authors like Tim Keller and CS Lewis And I'll recommend near Christianity or the reason for done Or there's you know depending on the person. I'll kind of think. Oh, they'll probably really benefit from like a memoir Or like a testimonial kind of book I think of authors like Anne Lamont and Who I find just so compelling and so or the third category is like oh maybe it's someone who's Like interested in learning about the basics of what Christians believe like You know, and then I think of books like John Stott's book basic Christianity and so you know as I was thinking about like Gosh, I would really love to write a book That was um gave a reason for fake That connected to people's everyday experiences and that was written in colloquial everyday language So the book beautiful disappointing hopeful how gratitude grief and grace reflect the Christian story is really It was my attempt to write in three simple memorable words. What is the Christian story about and so for anyone who was Like they would be able to hear like The Christian stories about beautiful disappointing and hopeful and that it really is a frame for how Christians view life and for Christians Hopefully it becomes a resource to say like hey, this this is what we believe do you believe in a world that's beautiful disappointing but hopeful and So my hope was really I was writing it for our church Thinking through people who are exploring faith or people that want to journey with someone else when it comes to faith After I read the book and I and I kept looking back at the title. I thought Well, like that doesn't just describe the Christian life like in a macro way it describes like all the micro aspects of our life like Married absolutely like your career absolutely like your day I mean it encapsulates at all. It's macro and micro images, which is why I loved about it. Yeah Yeah, and in some ways I want I want people to kind of live life with a certain expectation for beauty And a certain expectation for disappointment. Yeah, and a certain expectation At least from a Christian will be for help And I think that I mean kind of like what you said like people, you know single people who want to get married like Hey, man. It's just beautiful and disappointing. Yeah, and hopefully hopeful um and For any season of life. This new job that we think is going to be the magic bullet or The The church community that we think oh, this is the best truth Reality is Christian community and um me is a pastor. I you know, I I will Hopefully do things that will elicit gratitude, but also a lot of grief um But hopefully that we this can be a frame for how we view the world How hopefully we can be a people of gratitude grief and grace and so that really is the desire Um, well, thank you for the book through. I mean, I so I read the book and um I felt like you could look at the book as Written for someone who was exploring the faith, but it was helpful to me and I'm a ministry leader and it gave me Tools for apologetics. It gave me words and language for the questions that we all encounter in our mind Mysteries from people who are Um trying to figure it out and make sense at all. Yeah. Yeah, so thank you for that. Well, thank you Drew It really has been such a privilege to be able to talk to you and talk about your new book. Thank you very much Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement You needed to continue on your journey. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly an online community Committed to empowering church leaders pastors staff and volunteers. 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