Better Spiritual Conversations - Jennifer Chan

I don't like to use this language, but I've cracked the code on ministry in this particular area of the city. So because of that, because of the challenges in the complexity, there is this desire to collaborate, and a desire to serve alongside one another and learn from one another. I don't take for granted, but I realize it's a really special thing about ministry in New York. And so I don't know, it's like a fun for me to get to celebrate. Welcome to Faithly Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders, as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life. Join us as we delve into their challenges, moments of encouragement, and answered prayers. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff, and volunteers. Learn more at Faithly.co. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired as we unveil the heart of faith through stories from the front lines of ministry on the Faithly Stories podcast. Jennifer, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. We've met a couple of times, I had a chance to get to know you a little bit, but I've always felt like I was just scratching the surface. And so I'm super excited for the opportunity to just take in a little bit more. Thank you so much for having me. So let me start with this. Your official title, Everdemar City City, is, I'm going to get this right. Senior Director of Missional Engagement and Catalina Training. The mouthful. It's a mouthful, but you know, so it's a big role, obviously. I'd love to just hear a little bit more about it if you could break it down until like what you do. Well, part of that work is just leading our training team and helping us stay, you know, as collaborative among ourselves, but also with all the different churches and ministries that we get to serve alongside. So it's, I see it as like a coordination role to help us make sure we're all talking to one another and all learning about how to train fruitfully and effectively in all this kind of context. So that's one piece is just getting to like work with the trainers and the facilitators, which is a real joy. The other piece is then being out in the field, which is New York City, which is a lot of fun. And this is me in church basements, in church sanctuaries, in all kinds of ministry spaces, in all five burrows, getting to work with pastors and leaders. And I like to describe it as equipping churches for better spiritual conversations. So this, this my aspect of emotional engagement that I lean into the most is around equipping people to speak to news, live big news, invite people to take a step forward to this. That's really cool. And you've lived in different places and you've served in different places. But you've been in New York now for like 15 years, almost 20 years, almost 20 years. Wow. So as you look to equip the church of New York City and its leaders have better spiritual conversations, is there anything that is like unique to New York that like when you were in Asia or you were in Canada? It wasn't like that wasn't the challenge for evangelism here, but it is here in New York. Oh, wow. That is a strictly question. I'll just start by saying marveling at the fact that in New York, I'm not the first to say this. I'm repeating things that I've heard from older wiser friends in ministry. But in New York, there is this desperation that because of how challenging it is, because of how diverse it is, because of how. It's like a thousand different villages, so many contexts. So you can't, I don't think you ever feel like you have a handle on. I don't like to use this language, but I've cracked the code on ministry in this particular area of the city. So because of that, because of the challenges in the complexity, there is this desire to collaborate and a desire to serve alongside one another and learn from one another. I don't take for granted, but I realize is a really special thing about ministry in New York. And so I don't know, it's like a fun for me to get to celebrate. Despite all the things, all the headwinds that seem to be prevailing, there's also a desire and a willingness to team up, which is really beautiful. Before you were at city to city, you were at the Medina churches. And before that, you were at UNICEF. What made you move from UNICEF into the ministry world? I would just say I've always felt called to equip people for mission. And so whether that was equipping people to speak on behalf of the world's children, which is what my work at UNICEF was, or equip people to speak about the role that Jesus plays in their life, the role that faith has in their life. I do see those as a piece, like as part of the same bread just in different contexts. So it actually felt, it didn't feel like a stretch for me to do what I was doing at UNICEF compared to what I'm doing now. So that's a part of it. But I'll say, Alicia, I've always been torn between, I went to college, I studied biology and political science. I wanted to, it sounds so preposterous now, but I wanted to just do humanitarian work. I wanted to help make a difference when it came to fighting and trafficking. Those are the things that hired me up. I was also drawn to mentoring, to cycling work, and evangelism and mission work as it relates to the church. I kind of felt pulled between this humanitarian and UNICEF world and then the ministry world. So that's why if you look at my journey, I'm kind of in and out of church ministry a couple times, though now it's been about five years at City to City. So wow, I might be here for a little while. Well, I have to say it doesn't sound preposterous to me at all. I think that in order to be a catalyst for change, you have to be really aspirational and you have to go for the things that sound like it's not even in the realm of possible. And I would also say that just as an observer, it doesn't feel to me like you've been in or out of anything. All of this is kingdom work, all of this is serving the kingdom. And you know, you were doing it like rolling up your sleeves and like in a nonprofit like UNICEF. And now you're training leaders, which has this multiplying effect, you know, helping and encouraging and equipping people who are God's hands and feet and all of this type of work. So it's beautiful just to observe and to hear you talk about it. Thanks for reflecting that back, Alicia. That's super encouraging. So before UNICEF, you were in Asia. What were you doing in Asia? Yes, well, Asia, I was deeply impacted by the pardon me, her ban on missions conferences that intervarsity hosts every couple of years pardon me. And I went twice. I went in 96 and I think it was the year 2000, but at one of those missions conferences, I remember it's like midnight around midnight on New Year's Eve and they invite folks who feel led by the spirit to make a commitment to do something missions wise. And I felt that pull. And at Urbana, probably it was 96. I had made a commitment. I really felt drawn to sharing the faith and helping people understand the faith in a place like China. I remember growing up reading about just the struggles of the church and of Christians in China. And I just felt like it's very simple and naive, perhaps. But I was like, I cannot believe that people in China cannot worship freely. They can't. They just don't enjoy the freedom to know God as I do. And I was bothered by that. And so that Urbana kind of prompting led to that commitment, which I then followed through a couple years later. So right after I graduated from the University of Toronto, my first job was to teach English in Shanghai. So I taught English by day and then led Bible studies by night. Wow. And how long are you there for two years? And when you do ministry today, are there things that you learned from your time in Shanghai that are part of what you do today? I'm just curious. There's a great question. There's impact in today's ministry. That's a great question. I think one of the things that comes to mind is being, I'm, you know, my family is Chinese, where my parents are from Hong Kong, going to China to live as somebody who'd essentially had very lazy. I've had very little, like, I'm not fluent in Chinese. I can, you know, do the basics of like ordering food and, you know, getting to a doctor or something. So moving from Toronto to a place like Shanghai, it was very challenging. And there's a lot of shares. There's a lot of the culture shock was real. And so if any meeting, one of the things that rises to the top when you ask that question of how it affects ministry to this day is being able to depend on a God who has proven himself faithful in the most challenging circumstances of my life. So it was the desperation. Again, that word, like when you're there and you're desperately trying to find out who you can trust, find out who your ministry partners are going to be. Try to find a way to connect with people who culturally are very different from you. Everything seems upside down. You don't feel like yourself food is different. You know, cultural mores are different in that environment where I had a very little sense of like, I can not, I know how to navigate this. I know how to succeed in thriving this. So the dependence on God that has never, and this is the grace of God that has never left me that that ministry that dependence like the moment by moment dependence on prayer and like rooting myself in Scripture to be able to make it through the next hour or the next day. That was, that was it. And really depending on prayer because we were, the crew I was with on the team I went out there with, we were all young, we're all recent graduates, we all idealistic, we wanted to, we wanted to serve God, we wanted to make disciples, but you know, we had a lot to learn. So yeah, so I'm really struck by the urban conference being kind of like the spark, right, that propelled you into your first chapter of ministry. We've done about 50 episodes in the podcast and you're not the first person to say it was the urban conference for me. And so I'm just struck by the power of gathering together and of all like sort of being pointed at the Lord together and the opportunities that arise for the Lord to speak really powerfully into people's lives in those moments and in those gatherings. So thank you for sharing that. Did you always know or did you dream that New York City would be in your future? Oh my goodness, that's never ever. I did not think that New York was never on my radar. I thought international being overseas in some capacity definitely was, but here's the thing. I got married to an American guy and he trained for his trained in medicine here in New York. And it's because he matched here for residency that we came to New York. But when I first, when we first drove into the city. And I saw, you know, he was like pointing out the Roosevelt Island tram, the landmarks in Long Island City and Queens and just the bridges and everything. I felt I did feel this is a little cheesy. I did feel a sense of like, this is the home I've been looking for all my life. Wow. I thought that the moment I hit the streets. And so after 20 years here, I imagine this is firmly home, firmly home. Yeah, you'll have to drag my dick body out of this place. In COVID, when I did, like in COVID, when so many people felt they need to move away, it just never, I was like, where else would I go? Why would I need help? And I felt more committed to New York than ever. Yeah, so it was really home. I have to admit, so I'm 20 years in New York as well. And I have to admit, I was one of those people during COVID who would like, like through pictures of real estate, other places, because wow, wide open spaces and you don't have to worry about some of the things you have to worry about in an urban setting. But for me, like, I arrived where you arrived. I just, I had to look at the pictures to get there. But I saw these like different towns and different cities and I just never felt permission from the Lord to be in those places. Because I didn't at all feel released from like, what is my mission feel? What is your mission feel? And so I don't know, I had to do some browsing. I totally get the people who looked elsewhere, but yeah, we stayed and I really couldn't envision us anywhere else. Yes, but I enjoyed that way. Yes. So you've got two girls. You have twins. I can't imagine. I have three kids, but I don't have two kids the same exact age. When for a challenge, they, they kicked my butt for, they still kicked my butt, but from the years of like zero to like six, I just felt it's a black hole of like, I just can't believe we made it out. I have like that pocket of memory loss. Oh, you have to, it was, you have to, you have to, you have to blacksmith it out. So what's interesting is like when, so as a mom of a seven, five and two year old, when you've got like the little little ones like your babies are like one or one and a half, people will tell you just, when there's three, it gets better. But when they're, they like kind of like encourage you along the way, but then once the kids get older, if your girls are 10 and the real truth comes out, it takes like a wood six years to sort of reclaim, I think, like more fully like your dreams. And, you know, your life, at least I'm finding that and it's not a bad thing like for me, like I've learned and I'm learning so much just, you know, raising them and going through all these stages. But I'm curious as someone who is now leading leaders, you know, training pastors and other leaders. Is there anything you've learned as a mother that has influenced how you need others? Wow, this, we could sit and talk about this for a while, which I'd love to hear how you would answer it too. Again, the theme, the my theme word seems to be desperation. Having twins is so challenging for me, there was anything I could manage to do apart from just keeping them alive, help like such a gift from God. So again, this dependence on God for everything, the absolute inadequacy in my husband felt those zero to six years. And even now it's still challenging, but it's gotten better. But in terms of ministry, having twins was so demanding for me and my husband, I felt the need to be like, I would just make sure when they were down for a nap, that precious, whatever it might be at one point, it might have been an hour and then it shrunk. But sometimes it would be a little bit more, I'd be like, okay, I got to make sure all the tissue boxes are stocked up. I got it like everything, these all get everything ready because when they're up again, I will have no capacity to do anything but survive. And so in a way, that kind of like, what's it going to take to like get through, keeping them alive and like keeping our household going, that preparedness. So I think that that carried over, especially in the early years, to into the workplace of like, okay, I got to like whatever time I have, I got to, for good or ill, like I got to optimize and maximize so that I'm ready. When I have the energy, because my energy is now so limited, I got to make sure that when that window is there, I can really take advantage of it. So that was one thing, but hey, there's so many things about parenting. I remember I heard this teacher of the word. She spoke about how God was bringing the Israelites into this, the promised land, the land of milk and honey, and that they would be richly, like greatly blessed in this land. But what this, this teacher revealed and helping to understand was that the blessing is, we will need to depend on the Lord. Even as the land itself is a great gift, but in order to cultivate that land, to live sustainably off that land, to get along with one another in that land, the blessing is dependence on the Lord. And I have thought a lot about that, about children being a blessing, right, from the scripture itself, from, you know, mothers and fathers in the faith, mentors in the faith, how much children are blessing. And for me, that blessing is how much I need the Lord, how much He, and so that, that is easily transferable to any aspect of ministry, which is this ministry is a blessing, and I desperately need the Lord at all hours and all moments of it. But one more thing is just the, as I think about, you know, part of my work is equipping people in evangelism and making disciples. And as I try to disciple my own daughters, what it has helped to bring to life is just the holistic, the best of it being how holistic it is. It's not just me reading words on a page, so then it's not just me stories are incredible stories are a beautiful way to help our children learn about God, but it's also like serving together. It's also helping somebody who's struggling up the stairs at the subway together. That is part of the disciple. Evening process. And so that seeing what helps my kids respond to the things of God, certainly informs and I hope enriches the way I talk about how we as leaders in the church can disciple people who want to follow Jesus. So that that like full body, like all of life aspect of discipleship. Yeah, I think it's been one of the gifts of parenting. Yeah, absolutely. A lot of gifts, a lot of challenges. I have the opportunity to interview Drew Kim, you know, a pastor in New York City, who just published a book. And the book is called Beauty Disappointment and Hope. And it's a picture of the Christian life, but it's also a picture of like these things in our lives like everything is beautiful and disappointing and there's hope. Like whether it's yeah, the church marriage, our lives, our children, I love what you said about, you know, how you're discipling them. And I'm certain it's carrying into how you're training others to make disciples. Because it's it's one ministry, right? Like you were your life and everything the word has called you to. It's all it's all your ministry. I think for me where my kids are an age. Discipling them hasn't been a challenge because they kind of at the ages my kids are at they just sort of believe whatever you tell them at face value. So we haven't had like they haven't asked me questions that are tough to answer yet, but I know that's coming. For me so far, like in my journey as a mother, I feel like it's given me a better sense of the father's heart. I've grown closer to the father's heart because I can see I think how he sees us sometimes when I see my children on. You know, like they're whining and they're crying and they're being insolent and demanding and so unreasonable sometimes. And I love them and I have compassion for them, but like, man, how much patience and grace the Lord has versus me. It just it's been really eye opening. And yeah, just that like dependence on God. You can't do it. Yeah, yes. So you work with all these pastors and these leaders of the church and you've been doing it a long time in New York City. What do you think the Lord is doing in the church of New York City now? And what do you think he wants to do? Given what New York went through pandemic wise and what and you know, in some ways we are still recovering from and we'll be recovering from the impact of the pandemic for a long time. I just think of his education as one and the way we still, you know, are some of us showing up to church once a month. Like a lot because we just got used to zooming into church. Right. And so, but all that preamble to say how God works profoundly through the trials and hardships that come New York's way and fresh on my my heart and on my team's heart right now. Are all the executive orders and all the new ever changing it seems policies around immigrants, asylum seekers and all of that and just the way churches are responding to the possibility that ice may come to a worship service. Like how they can best love their neighbors and serve the city in this climate. So it seems to there's just a fresh kind of challenge coming the church's way right now it's upon us already. And so just like pandemic was this fresh challenge current this immigration policy stuff is another fresh challenge just the incredible opportunity. I don't want to sugar code it is not easy, but the opportunity it is for the love of Christ to shine through us. So I we're sensing that now, which is there's here, there's anxiety, there's anger, there's great frustration at what's going on and and yet, you know, I I'm surrounded by a keen that praying for ourselves our own hearts and for the hearts of pastors and leaders in the city to not respond to hate with hate to not to actually wash the feet of those we might consider enemies or at least those who think and act very differently than ourselves and so gosh, oh God, like is that right? It's just reflecting on the sermon on the mount if someone strikes your cheek right cheek given the left as well because striking them back as NT right puts it just keeps the evil and circulation. Yeah, and so the church has an opportunity to like bust the circulation of evil by the way it responds right now and so that that is that's something that that's again just on our minds and hearts right now, I will add what I have had the privilege and joy of being a part of is as churches reconnect to reconnect to reconnect to what it means to be dissent people of God as they reconnect to the man this like incredible mind blowing reality that through Jesus, God the Father looks on us with favor and the light and with pride already. Out of that kind of I like to talk about it as a re-Jesusing of our hearts and re-Jesusing of our our communities of faith out of that re-Jesusing and kind of a re tapping into what it means to be sent. And how transformative how renewing refreshing galvanizing it is for communities whether they're baby six month old church plants or historic churches that have been around for a hundred years that re-energizing that happens when you wrestle again with what it means to be dissent church of God, dissent people of God. How that looks like in the way you love and engage your neighbors and their colleagues. And so I'm always going to want to keep out on as people take seriously. I'm really not going to take seriously as they take seriously to call to be salt and light man like the joy, the energy, the refreshment they experience, the renewal they get to be a part of the really cool things that they get to take part in because of that. Long very long winded answer Alicia to your question of what am I seeing God do as people we connect to the mission of God and kind of discern what their role is in that just the joy, the energy, the vibrancy that comes from that and the goodness and the grace that spills out people into mission. I could be out on that all day. I love that. Thank you for sharing. You know, it's so beautiful. And I love that you said, Regis is it. I think we all need a little Regis is it every day when we wake up. I love that. Thank you. I got a shout out Alan Hirsch for that. I stole that from him. Thank you Alan Hirsch. Yes. All right. So last question for you, Jen. You were a guest preacher at reunion church in Union Square New York City this past summer. And you opened up the message by asking the congregation, how do you think you get stronger spiritual and there were some really great answers, right? I think people shouted out prayer people shouted out community. And you said for you, it's remembering and living. Can you talk a little bit more about that? And I have a follow up question to that, which I'll just add in, which is. This question of getting stronger spiritual and do you answer it differently if it's for a congregation versus for one of the leaders that you're trying to. We Jesus. Yeah. You added to get so that the remembering is maybe part of the remembering is the new Jesus thing of our heart, the warming up of our hearts, fire and God's love as Richard loveless. So we don't know it's trying to steal love from other sources like you know sources that just aren't always going to fail us. But so the remembering is key. The read Jesus is key. And then I would say it's always it's always take a baby step of faith. Watch what God does in and whether it's for an individual leader who takes that step of faith and then experiences the grace and nearness to the father and in a fresh way. And that might become infectious to more of the people around them for a whole congregation. It would still be warm up your hearts at the fire of Jesus. Remember the tap back into that first love. Sometimes a question. I asked is as I am with a group of leaders. It might be what's what's the first story of Jesus that really moved your heart. And as people turn to one another and talk about Jesus eating his disciples with breakfast on the beach for giving Peter after Peter had denied him three times or for me it's Jesus. I'm stopping to heal the woman with the issue of blood on his way to bring gyrosis daughter back to life like those. That that the stories of the gospels that first moved our hearts about Jesus. There's something about tapping back into that that man strengthens our faith helps us I think unhide the light in us. Revives our ability to consult. So I'm sticking to my guns it's still remembering and I think it's most of the faith. I love that thank you for sharing it and thank you Jen for everything you're doing to serve the city of New York. I'm a part of the church of the city of New York and I'm so blessed by it. Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly an online community committed to empowering church leaders pastors staff and volunteers. The Faithly digital platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection foster collaboration and promote growth within the church and ministry space. Remember to subscribe rate and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you stay tuned for more uplifting tales from the front lines of ministry on the Faithly podcast. Stay bold stay faithful and never underestimate the power of your own story.