Brooklyn on Monday

We're living in a multi-ethnic world today or America. We still got a ways to go in terms of in our nation. We're seeing that now. Sure. But civil rights, you know, happen, we can ride the bus. Yeah. Hey, man, you can sit in this room today. Yeah, 100%. Because of what he believed in. And it's, hey, we're better together. He called it the beloved community. Yes. Which then coincided with the principles of the kingdom. That really speaks to this idea that we really are better together. Welcome to Faithly Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders. As they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life. Brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders. Learn more at Faithly.co. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired on. The Faithly Stories podcast. Pastor Andrews. So here's sitting with my good friend, Pastor Sam Collier. Welcome to Faithly Stories podcast. And my brother, I'm glad to sit here with you and talk a little bit about your story, man. AD. Yeah, brother. Can I shake you? You know it. You know it. We don't break all the rules anyway. We don't break all the rules. We're going to be no other podcast like this podcast. We 30 seconds. And we're going to break the rules. They're like disclaimer in the bio section. Warning. And we shake that. For us to honor to be here like, just, you know, well, we'll get to this later. But I mean, people need to know how much you mean to me and what you've done for me in the hall. At 2 a.m. I'm doing the calls and the coaching session. I mean, so, you know, from the moment I met you, I felt like an instant connection. I was like, man, this dude is real. And it's just been unfolding since then. Yeah. And although I feel like our relationship is not years long, less than a year, it's gone deep fast. Yes. Yeah. The conversation we had last night, you know, the, the vulnerability, the sharing, all that stuff. Man, it's been phenomenal. And I watched you. I mean, we're sitting here and the audience doesn't realize we're in New York City even. Right. We're on a beat. You know, we're in New York City. Yeah. We just finished 30 for 30, which is supposed to be 30 hours with 30 pastors. But we had like 70. Yeah. If I hear another joke about that, you know, 78 and a half pastors. Right. It's no wonder who the half is, but whatever. I saw you in Atlanta. Yeah. You know, we were in your hometown where you pastor. And I said, hey, man, would you give the devotional thought, which we always do outside? It was just beautiful. And I mean, sky was beautiful. And you just, you shared your story with a level of vulnerability. And the ministry leaders that are watching that might see Sam. And they might say, man, it's guys a phenomenal communicator and look at this. Look at that. Man, you've been on a journey for a minute now. Yeah. Can you share a little bit of your story with the audience? Oh my gosh. How long we got? You did not want me about this. Man, you know, it's, it has been a ton of peaks and a ton of valley. Yeah. And it's interesting. Um, I think it was Bishop Bronner that said here, I think in New York, this is Long Beach. I know you had a Long Beach. Exactly. He said Long Hill. Yeah. You know, but he said, you know, you, or it was either him or you, I believe. I think y'all shared in this sentiment that you learn the greatest lessons in the valley. Yeah. That's where you get your strength. Yes. Um, and that's been a large part of my journey. Um, I started doing ministry when I was 16. Okay. So I'm 36 now. Okay. So it's been 20 years. And you know, in the black context, I grew up in the black context. Yes. Um, you just kind of, if you're talented, you love God, they just kind of give you a mic. Like, hey, figure it out. Figure it out. Um, and so how can you play and you could. Yes. That's how I started doing music, music ministry. And I got my first record deal when I was 16 with Bishop Eddie Long. Okay. So he, this is when he was at the height. This is when usher and Tyler Perry and Kirk Franklin and Rodney Jerkins were in his office at the church. Right. Right. Um, Louter Chris. Yes. You know, after church. Yes. So getting the opportunity to potentially have a record deal with him was like, yeah, oh my gosh. And um, I know, you know, I went from literally just meeting him to three months later, meeting all these guys. Yeah. And I went to meeting with Kirk and singing for Kirk and all of this other stuff. Um, and I did that for a little bit of a season and then transitioned to my first ministry job at Ebenezer. Okay. We don't have time to go through the ups and the downs. We'll just the rounds. Yeah. Um, but at Ebenezer, I'll give you a quick story. This is, I'm going to try to, because you said, tell me to be quick. I'm going to try to be brief. Like, I get like a million stories in a story. Yeah. But I'll tell you a quick, because this is it. So, so I am, um, they make me youth choir director and I was, I hate it choirs at the time. I grew up on Army music. Okay. And, um, when they went, now this is, you know, this is the Ebenezer. Yeah. Um, this is right when Dr. Raphael Warnock became pastor. Sure. They had just voted a man. Yeah. He had been there maybe a year, maybe two years, maybe. Okay. He was not in the politics at the time. Yeah. And when they put me over the youth choir, I started the rehearsal and it was one person at the rehearsal. One. And I was like, what am I doing? You know, like, did you call a choir? Like, if you got one member of the voice, they are soloists. Right. It was a voice lesson. And I'm playing, you know, and so the Lord tells me, was he, is she talented at least? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. He's like 12. And it's her and her mother sitting in the back. Okay. And so her mother sits in the back because she's 12 and her mother sits in the back the whole time because it's just her. Yeah. She's not going to leave this 12 year old with this guy at Ebenezer. Right. And so the Lord tells me teach this 12 year old like it's through 30 people in the room. So I'm like, you know, I'm doing the moves. Everybody stands. And, um, she stands and I'm teaching her. I'm like, let's do our scales. This goes on for four weeks. Nobody ever joins the choir. It's me. This girl and her mother for four weeks. So we get really close because it's just us in the room and it's weird. So after four weeks, her mother gets upset. She's like, this is ridiculous. I'm telling the pastor. I guess she had a relationship with the pastor. I'm telling the pastor. He needs to make an announcement and get more people in this choir. So that for fifth Sunday, he makes an announcement. Youth choir rehearsal is this week. If you're dead. I end up meeting the youth pastor. I didn't know they had a youth pastor. It's been four weeks. It's 40 people in the choir the next week. Okay. So after choir rehearsal is done, I'm excited, whatever. And I'm meeting the youth pastor in the parking lot. And this is a big part of my ministry. Like this is like the beginning of I think launching whatever it is that the Lord is going to do. I'm in the parking lot talking to the youth leader. I tell him, hold on for a second. And I go say bye to the mother who's been with me for the last four weeks. Sure. And then I come back. And he's like, man, y'all got y'all are really close. I'm like, I mean, it's just been us. He's like, do you know who that is? And I'm like, no, that's Angela. You know, he said that is Martin Luther King Jr.'s niece. Wow. And so I had been teaching his niece and his great niece for four weeks. I mean, it was insane. And we, we gotten close and I mean, I got chills when he said it. Yeah. Like her, her, her mother is Dr. King's sister. Wow. And her cousin is Bernice King and all of these. And she's on the board of the King Center. I had no idea. I had no idea because she was kind of, she kind of hung in the back. Sure. I mean, that makes sense that you know the past. Right. You got top line. You called over. You know, you know, you bet, you know, been with all the presidents and all these other things. And, but she asked me to be her daughter's mentor. And so I mentored her daughter for about three or four years. And went to the Emmys with them. And, I mean, her name is Angela Watkins, Dr. Angela Watkins. She's tenure professor, a spellman and some other things. But her influence, I mean, in that turn into me being close to Dr. Bernice King for a while. Sure. And I studied at the King Center in terms of King philosophy for, for season. And kind of in that went back to Newbur. Okay. When John Gray was there. Yeah. Um, he went to, I think you told me about this that you knew him when he started doing comedy. Sure. Yeah. Um, and so he went, he went on the road with TV one. I took his job at, um, Newbur over youth choirs, praise teams bands and some environments. Newburts went through a few things. Sure. I transitioned out of that was with Andy Stanley for eight years. Pause. I get everything up to this point. Yeah. Um, you grew up in the black church. Yeah. You're talented. You're gifted music. Ebony's a new birth. Kirk Rodney. Yeah. I, it all makes sense. Andy Stanley. He was a little bit like a left turn. Like, like, he's going to bring that up right here and be like. Oh, and by the way, I just. I went to the whitest possible church in the Atlanta. Atlanta. Atlanta. For the international crowd that doesn't know, like birthplace and civil rights. Like, this is Dr. King. Right. I went from Dr. King's church to Andy Stanley's church. I'm just saying. And you know, you didn't like have like a moment like you were there for like eight years. Eight years. You know, you know, you know, you know, you got guys that are, you know, dealing in diverse environments, right? Yeah. I know for me, I thought because all of my best friends were black. There's no way I could ever, ever have a bias. Yeah. And it wasn't until after 20 years on a failed succession plan of leaving a church and then moving to be underpasta binard. Yeah. And we prayed for the first time. We stopped the service and we prayed for an unarmed black man in service. And I thought to myself, I went upstairs to the conference room, you know, where we're at the time we had multiple services and pastor would have breakfast. And we'd have breakfast. And I thought I can remember over 20 years distinctly. Stopping services for police officers. Yeah. Who were killed? I know I officiated a service that 15,000 police officers showed up and bought into his device president at the time and our governor and our mayor and the Cardinal and pastor binard, you gave the eulogy. I didn't realize that we had never stopped a service. Yeah. To pray for an unarmed black man or woman. And in that moment, and I confessed to pastor binard, and he said, you'll never really understand until you're led by somebody who's not part of the dominant culture. In some ways, you're going the other way. Absolutely. You're now going from black culture Atlanta and some of two of probably, you know, the most, but one historic and certainly one that's got a name to say the least. Now into an environment led by Andy Stanley. Yeah. What was that like, man? Man, it was, um, it was a cultural revolution in my mind. Okay. And it definitely was the leading of the Holy Spirit that led me there. And to be honest, I ended up there and wanting to go there not for cultural reasons. It was for innovation reason. Okay. Which was interesting. Because at the time I had gone, you know, I told you new birth had gone through some things. Yeah. I know the history of new birth. Now, obviously, Pastor Jimov, Dr. Jimov Ryan has passed during it. And it's kind of, it's flourishing again. But it went through a hard season. Um, and up until that point, um, having gone through so much and just kind of dealing with that, um, I wanted something different. I was just like, I need something. I, I want to approach the gospel maybe in a different way. But I didn't really know how to answer that question. And it was actually Bishop Eddie Long's son who took me to North Point, which is Andy Stanley's trick. Yeah. He just called me one day and was like, I'm trying to remember when this happened. Because I was like figuring this thing, different things out. And he said, man, I'm going to a six p.m. service somewhere. I want you to go with me. So I go with him. And this, the most white people I've ever seen in my life. The most white people I've ever seen in my life. Ever. I was like, right. It's like the Christian gap store. You're saying we're going to break the rule. We apologize for the beginning of this podcast. So if this hasn't be added out and post production, just edit me out. Old Navy. He said, he said, I went to the old Navy. I was like, well, all these white people come from because in Atlanta, you can be black and never see a white person. Yeah, I got it. Like, you can just live over here. I didn't know I've already existed until I got to North Point. And so I'm like, this is like a whole new world. I was fascinated at that. But then once I got past that, I was seeing the lights and the camera and the... I actually think when I went, they opened with a Marvin Gaye song. What's going on? Okay. Which is about, you know, kind of a cultural criticism. Yeah. Social justice. Oh, that. And it's positive. It's what makes sense. But it was very... I was like, what is the right? And then he went through the service and I don't believe Andy was preaching in person. The screen was like life-size and at one time he had a hologram. Yeah. And at one time. Yeah. And so I was just so blown away by the innovation. I said, man, whatever they're doing, I want to learn. And it's a bunch of white people here that's fine. I'll figure that out. Well, you know, it says something about your character and aptitude for learning. Because the bottom line is whether you agree with everything or don't agree with everything. I remember the old staying in the church used to be to the meet and spit out the bones. Yes. I don't have to agree with everything to learn from something. Yes. And so you know, you're in a completely different cultural environment. And you're saying, I can learn innovation in this space that I can apply in multiple spaces. And I don't have to replicate it. I just want to learn from it. And then you go through this, you know, season where then you're going to launch. Yeah. And you're the very first ordained black global Hillsong pastor. Wow. I mean, that seems like a lot of pressure to do. What was that like? And it wasn't the goal. It, you know, I think it's a great segue. And from North Point to Hillsong coming out of Ebenezer. Because when you look at kind of the journey and where I ended up, it kind of has Dr. King written all over it in terms of just what he stood for. Yes. He stood, I mean, we're living in a multi ethnic world today or America. When there's no, you know, slavery's not happening anymore. We still got a ways to go in terms of in our nation. Sure. We're seeing that now. Sure. But civil rights, you know, happen, we can ride the bus. Well, me and you can sit in this room today. Yeah, 100%. Because of what he believed in. And it's, hey, we're better together. You call it the beloved community. Yes. And so for me, I wouldn't, it seems as if, you know, God introduced me to the King family, introduced me to the King and principles, which then coincided with the principles of the Kingdom. And then took me on a beloved community journey in understanding. And I love this point that you made in terms of, man, it doesn't matter what's happened over, I can learn. Yes. From anybody. And that really speaks to this idea that we really are better together. Yes. And I think for me, obviously, when things like George Floyd happen and other things, you start to see how maybe a part you are or how much you can learn from one another in terms of coming together, our gaps, so on and so forth. Sure. But there was so much that I learned at North Point from my white brothers and sisters that made me a better leader. Yeah. That made me a better communicator. I tell you right now, I wouldn't, I got my passion from Bishop Long, but sermon structure and the intention of theology and getting behind the text and context. Oh, it came from Andy Stanley. Yeah. It came from Andy Stanley. 100. And it was like, and he was, I mean, he was a tough, he was a tough critic. Yeah. I had to submit myself through that process. And on the other side, it led me to, to your point, to this first African American pastor at, you know, at Hillsong. And it wasn't the goal. I just, for me, I just got into the end of the rope at North Point. And I started asking the question, is it possible to truly create an environment where all cultures can be seen and understood and the expression of ministry, whether it be a white context and a black context? Can we, can we take the passion of the black church and mix it with the intention and the strategy of, well, some would consider the white church and the innovation. And then the prophetic side of the urban context, but then also the intention on theology. Can we put that together? Yeah. And so I started looking for a house to do that in. Brad Lamenick was my first, was my second call, because we, me and Andy talked about it a lot. And we really wanted to do it, but we just, you know, back this foundation. Sure. And the cost of it, you know, so and so. Sure. And so he introduced me to Brian Hughes. Okay. And I flew in to meet with him literally, and this is just got literally the week of George Floyd in LA. And as I'm talking to him about this multi-ethnic idea, he's excited about it, but there are riots going on literally down the street. Wow. And so it was as, it was like a prophetic moment of God just going, our nation needs this. Hillsong can be a part of this. And they were trying to figure out what they could do globally, even it had just formed a global, was it multicultural board? Sure. Well, they were trying to figure out, okay, what does it mean to do race relations here, but also in South Africa? Yeah. And then also in, you know, in the UK and in other places. And so I'll stop. No. I think you alluded to it earlier in the conversation when you said, you know, we learn a lot more in the valley. We grow, we get stronger in the valley than we get from our blessings in the mountain top. And I know for me, when I think about my favorite character in the Bible, it's Elijah. It's first kings. I think there's a reason why in the New Testament, James says Elijah is a man just like, he could have picked anybody. Yeah. And he says a lot. And it's like, well, why? Well, Elijah is the guy that can call down fire in one moment and wish it to be over in the next. You know, he's sitting under a tree. Like, you know, God, I'm done. I burnt out ministry. You know, kill me now. Right. Thank God. Thank God he don't answer every prayer. Like killing. We sometimes have less kids if God answered every prayer. Right. And less friends and relatives. I've got to answer everyone. But I mean, I mean, think about this. Like the grace of God, Elijah takes a nap because that's what he really needed. Yeah. And he takes a rest of it. And then there's one bread baking over coals and cool water in a desert. God meets his need. And so for me, when I look at a character in the Bible that I feel like I most resemble Elijah's it. Because I feel like I've had mountain top moments where I felt like I called down fire and shut up the heavens and did some stuff that was real like, oh my God. And then I also had moments where I was like really quick. And God does something in those seasons. And it sounds like you've got these moments that have been high highs. Yeah. But I know some of the next part of your story has felt like, man, but I had to go through the valley to get to where I am today. What does that rest of that story look like? It's just a miracle that I'm at this table. Yeah. You know. And at my... I'm going to use some black church terminology out in my testimony. Yeah. Say it, my testimony. I mean, if there's a song... Yeah. That was, you know, he's not done with you yet. I look at you and I'm like, you know, literally that's the sound track. You know, I mean, if I could actually sing and I can't, I'm not... Right, but you would bust that. I'm on pitch. I can't clap on me. I have none of the talent you have. It's just like I hear it. When I see you, I hear it like almost playing in my head. He's not done with you yet. Like when they thought it was over. He's like, no, I got a second chapter for Sam. I got a second... I got the next time. And the best is yet to come, man. I've seen that happen, brother. Jesus. Jesus, Jesus. Don't do this to me at this table. I'm sorry, man. I gotta go there. I gotta go there. I'm in the hall last night. You should have just laid him. I was afraid for your neighbor in the whole tunnel. I thought she was going to go down. Man, yeah, it's... My testimony has been... I have been kicking and screaming. The Lord literally has just been... I'm dragging me. You're not going to give up. Yeah. And I'm like, please let me give up. Let me... I'm done with the ministry thing. It's been too much. It's been too hard. It's been... You know, and... This is just... I really do think it's a great segue. I'm definitely going to answer the question. You know, here's what's crazy, Sam. Because you have options. You know, there's the guy in ministry that's like... I'm at the end of my rope. I'm done. But I gotta go back next Sunday. Because I don't have a choice. Yeah. You're so musically gifted and talented. And your podcast is being spread. I mean, you're in rooms. It's not like you can't go secular tomorrow or... Or get another job. That was my plan. You're in it because God has said, you ain't gonna give up. I'm gonna keep you in this. It's not like, well, I just don't have another opportunity. Yes. I have to do this. Well, and that's such a... And I've never said this publicly. But since we're here, it seems like we're outside. Where is that but we're outside? You know, when you go through, and we're gonna get into the Hillsong season, right? And then me, but if you're a ministry leader, and you know... They don't need a whole lot of content for it. Right. You understand the barrage of media, scrutiny, and documentaries and all the things. Sure. That we planted our church in, and then had to navigate through it. And now unpack it in a second. But it's like, when you go through stuff like that, and then go through a divorce and some other things, which we'll get to, you have people that are just like... Just hang it up. Because depending on what theological background you come from, and how you view restoration, it's like... You're just qualified. Just go sit down for the... Yeah, yeah. And nobody has a number. No. It's like, it's ten years enough. Yeah. It's two years enough. It's one year, it's six months. How do we know when somebody's really restored? There's no real number in the New Testament. Right. It's not like he... And I studied it. A blueprint. Yeah. And it was like, hey, you sit him down for six months, and then we, you know, quietly bring him back. I don't know. I remember the time they said, Jake said to me, said, Christians are the only people who shoot our wounded. Yeah. Now, I'm not saying that there's not a place to restoration, but what does that look like? Like, hmm. Is it 18 months? Right. Is it six years? Is it ten years? Like, or do you just put the guy out the towel? You know, somebody's changed. Right. Right. And so for me, it's like, when you... Now again, and I want to be, you know, honoring, because there were so many voices at that time, behind the scenes going, this is not going to be your end. But there were... I probably would say, maybe more voices, or it seemed like it was, that are like, just... Just hanging out. You want to keep. And so you get to the point, even. You hear those voices, you hear these voices. First time in my life, you're ever hearing these types of voices. And then feeling the weight of the moment and the pressure of the moment. You just go, yeah, why do I want to? Like, right. And you start saying, and I started calling people and going, yeah, no, I'm trying to get out too. I try to give our church away five times. Truth just refused to take it. I love you, I love you, man. I can't judge truth. I mean, I'm begging him, please. He's like, you're not, you're not stopping. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, and so, I'm like, guys, it's not that I want to do this. Right. My therapist had actually, and I'm skipping around, but my therapist had actually told me, when I was on the verge of a nervous breakdown, let's... Oh, let's pause. So, we go through the Hillsong season. We plan our church six months after Collins has his situation in Hillsong, New York. When we get announced as first African American pastors, I was married at the time. We're people magazine, New York Times, all these things, in a week. And I'm like, this is it. This is the place. It's like the crown of everything that this has been leading to. And then literally seven days into the media cycle, the situation in New York happens when Pastor Collins, you serps, we're out of the media, and it's him and then it's Hillsong for the next year and a half. And I'm talking about, I know the reporter's names, because of how many articles were written. Sure. We were having meeting, global meetings about reporters. This is the individual, there was one individual who, she just took it upon herself. Look, the Hillsong is my project, and I don't believe she was a believer. I think she's Jewish, actually, in terms of a Christian. And she was like, she's like, every day, I'm going to write an article about Hillsong. And I'm going to find something. I mean, if somebody tripped over a luncheable in the hall, she wrote about it. Right. No, it's like, they got luncheables there. It's like, right. And I remember, for three or four months, it was an article from the New York News, every, and the New York Post is a feeder. Mm-hmm. So when they posted, Vanity Fair has picked up. Yeah. And in this part of society. So she had a press pick up on it. Yeah. Which, it's positive. It's great. Yes. But when you're in the middle of that kind of cycle in that whirlwind, I mean, it's crazy. Well, and she ends up getting the deal. We'll discover it plus. Sure. That's where the documentary comes out. Yeah. We plat the church six months into that, in the Bible belt, where Christian news is news. Mm-hmm. And the south is Christianity. Everybody go to church for the most part. Mm-hmm. Or at least you've grown up in a church. And in the north, it might be a little different from what I have understood. That's why you have so many mega, mega churches in the south. Sure. But it just kind of goes to church. So if there's something in the Christian media, I mean, it's kind of being spread, and then it started tapping into, you know, some mainstream media. And so when we plan our church, we, you know, we've got 2,000 people that are opening. But most of the people came just to. Sure. You know, what's going on here? What's going on here? Yeah. And so we think, you know, and I'll say this to you, it's like, in our minds, it's like, you know, Hillsong has been number one for the last 40 years. Yeah. Shout to the Lord's stuff. Like Charlie and Shanna. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Way back. I did the same. 1980 stuff. Yeah. Yes. In our minds, and I have mentors calling me behind the scenes going, are you sure you want to continue with this? Like, are you, I know we had any plat the church. We have been announced, but I'm like, they're like, are you sure? And I'm like, it's Nike. You know, I mean, you know, Nike goes through stuff all the time. No, no, no. You just don't hear about it. No. I'm like, it's not they're not going to go down. Right. You know, and again, they're still existing, but in terms of the hit. Yeah. And it just didn't stop. Let's fast forward to your engagement with Christian cultural side. Yeah. Pastor Bernard, Pastor Jamal Bernard. Yeah. Look at that come about. We go through the Hillsong season, we transition the church over the story, church, that goes on for about a year and a half, and then I go through a public divorce, which is very, it's very hard, you know. The intention at the time was that it would not be public, but it ended up being public. And right when it kind of goes public, and I talked to you about this, privately, we're in the middle of a building project. And we probably, it was probably a $750,000 building project. We're $400,000 in, and it goes public. Our tithing goes down 80%. And for me, I'm like, man, it's over. It's, we just need, again, it's been this, it's been that, we just need to hang it up. And I have a few friends of mine that, you know, are at least a lender and landlord, these are, you know, friends in there. Like, look, can you just try to do whatever, you know, can we finish the building? A finished building is better than, you know, any complete building. And so, man, we just kind of, we called it the Hail Mary. We threw a Hail Mary at Christmas Eve, and you know, the place was packed for the opening. We finished it. But then we continued to go through just, what a church would go through in a divorce kind of span. You know, and our tithing continues. It stabilizes, but it's not enough for us to pay a $30,000 amount. Yeah, mortgage, if you will, or lease. Man, and so, at the time, I'm kind of navigating it, and I fly up to New York to do my podcast deal with America Urban Radio Network. Sure. And this is kind of the first sign of son that I've had in, like, maybe two years, two or three years. So I'm just like, okay, you know, God is, God is still here. And I signed the deal. I'm excited I go back to the hotel. My staff calls me, they're like, it's an eviction notice on the door. Man. And I just, it was as if the last three years, hit me all at once, right? I fall on the ground in the hotel. I'm just, you know, call my therapist, and this is the point I was met, and he says to me, you got to make a choice. I'm like, hey, at this point, it's about my health. I know I'm holding on to ministry, and because I feel like this is the Lord has told me to do this, I don't want to die. Right. And I was pretty clear that if I continued along this, I was going to end up in the hospital. And he told me the same thing. He was like, no, absolutely. You're like, you're, you're like moments away from having to be checked into, like, a mystery institution. Sure. And he's like, so the way you get out of this is you have to, you got to make a decision. And he described it like this. It says, if you're in a dilapidated house, and you're trying to refurbish it, and as soon as you fix one wall, you go in the next room, and you realize there's mold on that wall as well. And you keep going from wall to wall, bringing, inhaling more mold and you're getting worse over time. And I'm like, well, what is it worth, is it worth saving the building? He's like, only you know that. He's like, but you got to figure out what you're going to do now. You can't keep going from room to room, and trying to drug, and trying to juggle this. You, you're going to do ministry, or you're going to do this, or you're going to do that. And there's no wrong answer. A couple of weeks go by. And I tell him, all right, I'm doing ministry. Today, just getting my masters and ministerial leadership, theology and leadership. And my plan was to go work for the UN and to do some other things. And three days before I'm getting ready to announce to the church that we're closing, a friend of mine calls me, and he's mine. Yeah, he says, do you know Dr. Yavinar? And I'm like, I know of him. I don't know these guys, you know, Jamal. I think he had tried to connect me and Jamal maybe a year ago over text, but we had really never had a conversation. And he said, well, would you be interested in doing something with them? Jamal wants to meet him. Two days later, Jamal's in Atlanta. And when Jamal walks in, we have lunch. It's pretty dark for me at that time, because I've released ministry. Things are heavy for me. I'm about to shut this church down. It's going to be another loss. And his first words to me are, man, I'm sorry we didn't come sooner. You know, that sounds like him. And only because I'm his best friend and I've known him for 20 years in that friendship. That sounds like the first words out of his mouth would be like, man, I wish I was here sooner. That's there is a rider die, jump on top of a grenade for you, kind of guy. He's like me and my dad. We just been watching you die for three years, publicly. That's what he said. And we meant to come sooner, but he's like, what are you doing? I'm like, well, I'm closing the church on Sunday. And he's like, well, how much money do you need to keep it open? I'm like, well, I've kind of done with ministry. Right. Right. And I got this bill. He's like, okay, but like, if how much money, and I tell him the amount, and for me, it's, it's a big amount. Yeah, because he's a 30,000. He gets up in the table, he says, give me a second, goes outside, calls his dad. He comes back, he says, we're going to give you the money. Can you be in Brooklyn on Monday? The relationship is how many minutes old? 30, 30 minutes old. Is that generosity? I tell you guys all the time, the common denominator for my friends is not ethnicity, culture, geography. I've got friends all. It's generosity. And that man is one of the most generous people I know. And his dad, who he learned it from, we're going to bail you out, basically. We're going to bail you out. God's been dragging you along this whole time. You ain't going to give up. You ain't going to throw in the white towel. And we're going to help you right now. We're not going to get it. Just pray for you. That's great. Thank you. I'm just going to give you a Bible verse. Thank you. I'm going to write a check. And we're going to figure this out. You can't quit. And the paradox, I'm an AD at the time, is like, I don't even want to do this. Right. But I'm seeing the hand of God. Right. And that's why I can't ignore it. Right. And I'm hearing him, so this is what you're supposed to be doing. Yeah. But I'm like, God, but I already made. The decision's like, I got it, but we. Right. And I'm in Brooklyn on Monday. It is like, just don't close the church down on Sunday. So I have to walk it back emotionally in my head. I just go through with the motions on Sunday. Monday, I'm in Brooklyn meeting Dr. Bernard and Jamal, pastor truth goes with me. And you know what's, you know, at the time, and you'll appreciate this. At the time, the whole time I'm sitting there, I'm going, okay, at some point, I'm going to ask you about my marriage. At some point, that's happening because this has been public. And they don't. So we go through the whole meeting. And then truth is like, I got to go because he has to catch your early flight. He had to go back. And they're getting ready to leave us. Hey, guys. I think we should probably talk about my marriage. I bring it up. And they're like, well, we got five minutes. What's the, what's the deal? And I'm like, I mean, at this point, they decided we want to do Christian culture center Atlanta and all these things. And I'm like, well, I feel like you need to know the detail. And they're like, oh, we got five minutes. And I'm like, okay. So here's, and I'm telling them the entire story. I'm like, here's the right. And the Maya. Here's what I did. Here's what she, like, just all the stuff. Like, here's where I'm at. And here's what I'm trying to. And they're like, okay. Are you, is that it? And I'm like, well, you know, this is right. Because you wait. And I'll be like, all right, man. It's great. Yes. We changed our way with it. And AR looks at me. He goes, we already knew all that. Right. We wouldn't be sitting here. Yeah. We just wanted to see if you were going to tell us the truth. Mm. Mm. You got it out. I'm just like. And we leave three months later. We plant, you know, CCC Atlanta. And I've been there. And I've gotten to see the campus. And I'm still waiting for my invitation to preach. Yeah. At CCC Atlanta. But whatever. You know, it's okay. You let me know. I'm waiting. But you said to me, like, yo, when I'm growing this thing, what, what do we need to do? And I just simply said to you, you just got to be more of who you are in God. Yes. Because it's so clear that Pastor Bernard's covering is amazing. Pastor Jamal's encouragement and leadership. Amazing. But God's got gifting and anointing so squarely on your life. And all I just keep hearing in the back of my head is he's not done with you yet. Mm. The best is yet to come. And we're not sitting here, you know, bringing up dirt to be salacious. What we're simply saying is to every leader that's watching this right now, your end. If you're breathing today, there's purpose. If you're, if you got up this morning and you're right, my, I don't care how dark it looks, there's purpose, there's future. Your best days are ahead. The best is yet to come in. And you are a living testimony of what that's like, man. And I will tell you, bro, two o'clock in the morning or whatever it is, man, I got you back. And I, you are so worth every investment and anything that I can do to be a blessed you, man. I'm, I'm down to do it, man, because I've, I've just seen the hand of God so clearly on your life. Can I ask you to one thing? If there's a leader right now that's so struggling, they are in the valley right now. They don't, they, they don't know the other side. Yeah. The valley's between two mountains. Yeah. Your mountain, your next mountain top is coming. But they're still in the valley. Would you give them a 60 second, just word of encouragement to that person that's watching right now? I made it through this interview with you. Yeah. I think, you know, what I would say is that one of the things that just keeps ringing my spirit is, you know, Dr. Bernard spoke to me and I asked the question, why would you want to work with somebody like, like me that's gone through? And he said, because your humble, you take accountability. We want to see if you would tell us the truth if you did. You know, I'm making excuses. You want, you will, you're willing to grow. You want to grow. And I can work with that. And I think that's just so important for people who have gone through some things, who have made some mistakes, which all of us have. Yes. We're all flawed. I think on the other side, this is what I've seen. On the other side of accountability, humility, brotherhood. Because our real first conversation was us riding around the city, me going, bro, I said, here's my story. And you're like, okay, here's what I'll challenge you. And here's what I'll hold you accountable. And here's what I'm going to call you up. And I think that that's just so important because I think on the other side of that, humility is grace. Yes. And God can just, what is he, he opposes the proud? Yeah. And uplifting the humble. Yes. And so I just want to encourage somebody to be humble in your valley. Get all, John Maxwell said it this way, when you're down, get all the lessons you can when you're down. He said, because when you get up, those lessons are no longer there. Yeah. And that's been my prayer in this season. And if you got to go kick in and scream and go kick in and scream. But be obedient to the Lord. That's the only reason I'm here. Yes. And the Lord said to me, I don't care how you feel. This is what I've called you to. Yes. Are you going to be obedient or not? Yes. And it's been individuals like you who have said, we got you. Okay. 30 preparing. Yeah. I love you, man. I love you, man. I love you, man. You have again, because I don't think they're allowed to do that. I don't like that. We're going to do it anyway. I'm sitting here with Sam Collier, pastor of CCC Christian Cultural Center Atlanta. Here in Long Beach, Long Island in New York City. Thank you for watching us on the Faithless Stories podcast. Get your follow us on social media and all the platforms. Definitely follow this guy. Watch his journey because the best you have to come for him. The best is yet to come for you. God bless you. Thank you for tuning in to the Faithless Stories podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey. The Faithless Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithless. An online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff, and volunteers. The Faithless Digital Platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection, foster collaboration, and promote growth within the church and ministry space. Remember to subscribe, rate, and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you. 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