Called to Be a True Servant - Amar Patel

I was falling short every single day, and there's so much new terminology, so much new frameworks and new techniques, I had no idea what to do, and so I would go before I went home and slept at my brother's crib, like I would go to Barnes and Noble, and I would sit there for two or three hours learning about the things that were brought up, and I'd shout the next day, but my heart posture wouldn't be like, oh, I know it all, I would tell people, hey, like I just learned this, is this the thing you're referencing? And I think what God called me to be and who I am, to be today, even, is a true servant, because that was what I had to become, I had to become that big. Hey, my name's Mark, and my little bit about me is that I love faith, books, people, and community, and I actually didn't grow up as a believer, and the Lord has led my steps and surrounded me with people that have radically changed my life, and this is my faithly story. Welcome to Faithly Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders, as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life. Join us as we delve into their challenges, moments of encouragement, and answered prayers. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff, and volunteers. For more at Faithly.co, get ready to be uplifted and inspired, as we unveil the heart of faith through stories from the front lines of ministry on the Faithly Stories podcast. First question I ask everybody is, could you tell me how your faiths turn you started? Yeah, I think so. My faiths turned you how it started, it's interesting because I grew up Hindu, and so with my parents, I'm in America, a typical immigrant story, and my parents, they were really devout Hindus, and so I grew up around that culture and that religion, and yeah, it was a really beautiful, beautiful upbringing, honestly. But one day my mom got in a car accident, and so nothing like tragic happened, which is a miracle in of itself. But she ended up having the boldness and the Lord tendered her heart, and she kind of was nudged by some friends to start going to church, and that created a lot of division in our family, actually, and here's my mom who raised this Hindu, but is now having the courage to go step out, go into church, and yeah, I just observed her. I was only 10, 12 years old at this point, and watching my mom step out, and she would come home more at peace than when she was going to the temple as a Hindu, and I think not really resonated with me, and so that was like the first stream that kind of led to me exploring my faith, and so yeah, it was, it's interesting because we, as I started going to church, the only reason I started going to church was, yeah, we weren't super rich when we were younger or anything by any means, and I used to go to church just because they had amazing snacks, and I used to stuff my pockets with sweetish fish and all the things. I didn't really care about the whole Jesus thing. I just was like, I'm bad, this is amazing, great snacks, great things, and that was the reason I went. But things really radically changed for my faith, like in high school. I was actually struggling, you're typical adolescent trying to figure out their identity and trying to navigate all the ups, highs and lows, and I ended up just drinking a lot and partying and doing that phase, and I got invited to an athletic or athlete's small group. I think it was like FCA, fellowship of Christian athletes, and there was a couple students in there that told me, hey, let's go to church for the first time, and so with them. I went, and again, I haven't really internalized my faith at this age. For the most part, I just went with my mom because of the free snacks and just being there to support my mom. I really didn't have a relationship with God, and so going to this church at an amusement park, shout out, Radrox Church, before you guys had the big buildings, you were at an amusement park at Heritage Square, and I went there, and there was a gentleman preaching on stage, and he started hitting on a bunch of notes of just all the struggles I had as a young man. And something shifted in my heart at that moment, and I actually, I was dead sat on trying to be a pediatrician, but in that moment, my heart shifted and said, hey, maybe you should consider public speaking or pouring into others or being a pastor. I was like, all right, I don't really know what that means, but hey, let's go figure that out. And so, yeah, I kind of just one thing led to another, and that I didn't end up becoming a pastor, spoiler for everyone listening to the story, but I ended up actually accidentally getting into technology. And so this is college now, and I ended up two years into college. I felt the Lord just saying, go be a light in the engineering program on campus. And so I switched my major, which is in hindsight, from an economic perspective, probably not the wisest thing to do, because my credits didn't transfer over, but here I was, I shifted it into computer science, and I just learned to pray for people, you know, that we're like super stressed, super depressed. I joined a Christian fraternity, did a ton of ministry, and just slowly started to see how God can use me, and that's kind of the story. There's so much there, but I'll stop for now. Yeah, so for your mom, did you ever explain what compelled her to even start going to church? What was the peace that she was feeling? Did you ever get to talk to her? Yeah, that's good. You know, I think for my mom, she really experienced like a deep amount of peace because you didn't have to pretend to be someone else in the church that she was going to. And I think that the, you know, each of the different institutions have their own subcultures and whatnot, but key for the first time in her life really didn't have to pretend to be someone she wasn't, and I think that's what really drew her to it. Do you have faith conversations with your mom? Yeah, sometimes I think now, so my mom, she is like, you know, I think every son says this about their mom, but she's super strong, like in so many ways, she's so resilient. And I think my faith conversations have really evolved because I think when I was younger, it was all about her trying to teach me about God and now I think I'm in a spot or position with the humility to be able to be like a teacher to her and to, you know, father her in her faith journey, which has been really beautiful. And so, yeah, just this like trying to be this individual of encouragement, because it's hard to stay faithful with despite all the struggles people go through, you know. How did her new faith affect her relationship with you? Yeah, I think it just caused a lot of marital strife, and for me, that really affected how I perceive my parents and marriage in general. And you know, I don't think I ever got to see them really come together, unified on something because of that. Do you ever feel any misunderstandings with the Lord of like, hey, you've lived my mom's faith, but no, the family dynamics all weird. That's a great question. You know, I think at that age, you know, if I were to really think about that at that age, I don't think I had those types of doubts. The questions I was having was, so I was in English as a second language student, and so then in my reality, I also got to go to like, I was surrounded by like, you know, more at-risk youth and socioeconomic like immigrants, you know, as students. And I think my mind just fixated on like, ah, well, everyone else has these really cool cars and houses, and we live in this apartment, and I felt more shame. So it wasn't actually misunderstanding with the Lord around like, why aren't my parents? Like, why does one have faith in the other? I was actually fixated on just my survival situation. I was just, that's where my frustration or my concern really came from. Was that- So then what was the thing that was resonating with you with that sermon, the pastor at Red Rock? Yeah. I think the, there's a couple of notes that resonated with me was really just around how he brought up, he was raised in a broken household. He also struggled with alcohol. He also was wearing a mask and seeking acceptance in many different situations throughout his life. He never had a assurance of safety, just given his neighborhood and his own perception of the world, and then he was just like a hustler, you know, he had this like energy to him around like, being dynamic and being an entrepreneur or founder. And I think all of that, that culmination of that, I got to see for like the first time in my life, pieces of what I struggle with, but then someone who's overcome them, you know, and I got to get exposed to what I could become. So have you had other mentors in your life throughout like your college years that like you can look up to and talk to and like, who helped you on this face journey? Yeah. I have a few mentors in, I actually didn't really have mentors in college, I think that's probably one thing I would do differently is like actually get mentors in the good gond however post college, you know, I was really blessed just with the workplaces I got to work in and co-workers just radically stepped up and poured into my lives and into my life. And I, they modeled to me how they live their lives and they modeled to me how they raised their kids, they modeled to me how to actually pray and that completely changed the trajectory of my life. I, you know, one guy I will shout out right now is Pablo Sarum. We used to work together at Glue, he was a product, he was a product leader there and he has this nonprofit for men called Wild Suns and I went to a retreat there and it was in the mountains at this ranch and, you know, I'd never really gone on an intentional men's retreat, I'd been on like fun college retreats that were just like, they definitely encouraged me in the spirit but it was nothing like this because I've never been surrounded by role models as you said, like I was 20 role models all men fighting for me and it completely shattered the orphan spirit that I had and so that, yeah, that was one mentor I would just like shout out right now, there's, there's many, I'm sure we'll get to all of them but yeah. No, that's awesome. So what made you want to be a pediatrician? I had a bunch of like health problems when I was younger and so I was just like, man, this is so boring, like why are the doctors so boring and they're not making the doctors are incredible but the ones I was going to just, it felt like the life was, there was no charisma, there was no energy and I had enough suffering going on around me that actually looked forward to going to like the doctor and getting some kind of interaction but yeah it just never, I never experienced that and so I've been part of me wanted to redeem those like experiences I had as a kid but then also, you know, do something differently and it wasn't because of my parents and being Indian or anything like that, so yeah. It feels like like you love people, right and like you want to see people that flourish and so I kind of see that heart and maybe that's what God was shaping into you and now you become this person which brings me to my next question of like, okay, then did you feel like you wanted to be a pastor because you got this like amazing experience because you were receiving the word and so now you just want to share it and what made you not go into that path? Yeah. You know, I think that two things with that, yeah, it definitely resonated with me and sparked something and I think at the end of the day what it sparked for me was around go love people well and then I had to do a lot of reflection to the discernment around well, to love people well is the only way pastor or can you do it through different mediums and you can't I think that if I would have had a spiritual mentor at that time, maybe I would have been nudged a certain direction and I would have had a better framework for how to get into that, but you know, I applied to see Boulder and that's where I went to school. It's like there's not seminary, you know, I mean, so I think that that was the, I was dealing with those different ideas and trying to navigate the intersectionality of it all. So yeah. What's the idea of the like a third place? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right? Being alive in those third places where you are surrounded by people of all different ideas and religions and beliefs, but yet, you know, you are still consistent who you are modeling Christ and then people come ask you like why is it different or like what's going on with you? I think it's such a more impactful thing that people need to start sharing more about and like believing in that like God doesn't have this one path. It's more of like, hey, he loves you and just be like Christ wherever you are. Yeah. That's amazing. You know, I, there's a quote that really resonated with me that a good friend of mine shared and the quote goes, you have more power or God has more power to do good than you do to do bad. I think that my life story, I've made so many mistakes. God haven't done. I would argue 98% of the things I've done is either been on accident and like even a failure in some cases, but the Lord has just redeemed every single one of them, you know? And I would just say like for anyone that's kind of the listening to this, trying to think through failure and trying to figure out their next steps. It's just to realize like take the first step. Like what is that first step? And even if you're not confident in that first step, just try and see where it leads, you know? It's better than doing nothing because if you stay in that space of just not risk taking and stagnation, that's where you can start to whisper self-doubt to yourself, you know? And that can lead to a really downward spiral. And I've been, I've been down that path too. So yeah, I just, I've, I've, I've figured it felt like prompted to bring that up. No, that was really good. Yeah, I think, well, one of my favorite songs is Nothing's Wasted. Like God uses everything, right? And so when you realize that, like, there's no fear in failure, because nothing's really a failure, it's just more of a learning curve. So what happened after college? You went into tech and engineering decode? I used to do a little bit, but I was never really good at coding. I think I was better with people. Yeah, I think that just sitting in my, sitting in a, not that engineers are typical like this, but for me, the imagery of just like coding alone just didn't make me come alive. So I didn't end up going down that path. I actually accidentally got into product, product thinking, product management, project management. I didn't even know that was a career because in college, I was like, because I just saw a foreign engineering, right? And I was fixated on that. But I got really lucky, and I got to work on a few different apps coming out of college. The first was an app called sober grid, and it's an app that people stay sober. It was such a beautiful experience. You got to do that as an intern for like, you know, three, three to four months, I believe. I learned so much. It was like such a boot camp, and then shortly after, I was in a really unique spot because that company ended up having a bunch of organizational change. And so I'm up leaving, but then I'm down to like my last like 300 bucks in college and trying to figure out my life. And I was just wandering down the street, and I looked across the street and there was a building and it was called tech stars. I didn't really know what tech stars was or who they were. I looked them up. I saw another internship role applied, got into that, learned so much about like how to build relationships with other founders, entrepreneurship. I was super powerful, and I got into it completely on accident. Like it was not, I didn't have a plan, and I got in there, and I got exposed to a lot of things. And you know, I was doing these pitch nights and doing these traveling a little bit with them, but I think what I felt conviction from the Lord of just this isn't the like, I'm not proud of who you're becoming here. And so I really wrestled with that for a little while. But I started to understand because here I am giving advice on how to pitch a company or how to build rapport and apply to a program at tech stars because you know, part of my job description. But I felt conviction was it's like, I felt very idolized because I was like, you know, I'd have these young founders come talk to me because I had the brand of tech stars, but I truly myself never built anything. You know, hustling as a kid, selling ice cream or whatever, like that's not a business and risking a lot, you know. And here I was like saying things to, you know, these founders who are risking it all and saying like, oh, you can make your pitch better this, this, and this way, and who am I? Who am I to say that? You know. So I ended up resigning, and that was a testimony because again, still economically, like my big cat was not where it needed to be as a person trying to figure out their life after college. Yeah. I got, got introduced to glue and got to work there. And that was such a powerful experience, profound, learned so much, an amazing team. We built a small groups app called Spaces, learned a ton doing it. And then shortly after, you know, my experience there, in that, like three months into it, that's much imposter syndrome because I was just sitting there, like, well, I don't think I'm qualified to do any of this. But they gave me a chance and forever, forever, you know, I'm grateful, but they did. Could you just share like what is glue? Yeah. I think it's a great question. Glue is really seeks to exist to empower like the champions and maybe the champions is like missionaries, nonprofits, church organizations, organizations that are focused on redemptive aspects of society. And glue, it has many different software initiatives that empower different aspects. So whether that's, you know, a small groups app or whether that's like a text-based service at your local church to like send out broadcast text messages, like they have thrive as the big thing there. There's so many different things. And they're really just a thought leader in the spiritual fake tech ecosystem. Yeah. So what did you do at glue? Basically, the mobile app spaces and it was a small group app. And so I got to just like leave the mobile team a little bit, you know, and do like a little bit of product management, a little bit of scrum master stuff, QA, just kind of being this generalist. It really truly, again, forged me to be like a true startup generalist because there was just so much stuff going on all the time that you had to wear multiple hats. That's what I did. You said that because in our world, there's just this thing where there's an over-inflated value on specialty, right? But being a generalist is actually like really, really helpful, especially in the beginning stages of stuff. And you know, that's saying like a jack of all trades that master of none, people don't realize that's like only half of the quote because the rest of the code is still better than a master one. And I was like, oh, no way. Yeah. Yeah. You've actually never heard the whole code, so really, yeah, yeah, yeah, I have it. Because yeah, you might be great at this one thing, but unless this one person needs that one thing, you're kind of useless, right? But if you have the ability to just like have a broad knowledge base and help people, you just have a bigger scope of like helping people, which brings me to like the dirty little secret in tech, everyone's an imposter, you know, like no one really knows exactly what they're doing because they're learning on the job. Because we live in a role where it's results, they never ask you like, how did you do this unless they want to like know from themselves, it's just more like did you produce it, did you get it done? But that also says like, I think as Christians, we need to operate differently, even though we want to produce results. Like I said, the people producing, it's people, right? And we need to take care of people. Then you kind of like cover your bases of like the results. So you're explaining like you're learning so much in this text base, but also like internally learning like who God wants you to be. Again, looking back up to like group heart like, yeah, like you're learning a lot of stuff in this industry, but like how is it shaping you and you leaving, did you like, what did you do to become the person you felt like God was calling you? Yeah, that's an amazing question. So more context to the story is while I was working at glue, I couldn't afford to live in Boulder anymore because I was just starting off in the first like six months. It's actually like, I lived on my and an air mattress at my younger brothers like college apartment. I felt embarrassed because here I am like this guy who graduated, all his friends are like living there too. And they look up to me in some capacity, but here I was like, I have to exit like lose my ego and have to swallow it because it was just too far to commute every morning like from where I like had a place to live versus like there and very first world problem. But here I am, you know, I was really thinking was I was like on the streets or anything, but there was a part of me having to swallow my pride in doing that, like to depend on my younger brother. And that was a really beautiful thing. You think for a large large large part of my life, I was it was the other way around like I was looking over my brother, but it was cool. It was such a cool moment. I was while working at glue, I've never experienced the it's it wasn't glue. It was my my approach to how I worked at glue. I was falling short every single day. There's so much terminal, so much new terminologies, so much new frameworks and new techniques. I had no idea what I was doing. And so I would go before I went home and slept at my brother's crib, like I would go to Barnes and Noble. And I would sit there for two, three hours learning about the things that were brought up. I did it for six months straight and like just like learning anything I could. And I would shout the next day, but my heart posture wouldn't be like, oh, I know it all. I would tell people, hey, like I just learned this, is this the thing you're referencing? And I think what God called me to be and who I am, I say seek to be today even, is a true servant, because that was what I had to become, I had to become that. And I'll share one quick thing, you know, I was, I had a few speaking gigs lined up in different countries as well, like after text us because I met so many friends from all around the world while working there, and they're like, hey, you should come speak it like my, my university or my school is like, oh my gosh, this is amazing, of course. Like it goes back to the high school dream of like seeing the best, I was like, oh, this is such a dream. But COVID happened. The world shuts down. I'll never forget this line that I got told right when this happened. And I found out, oh, I got one email each airline, United Airlines canceled Australia. This is cancel, Kenya canceled, like all these different things canceled. And I got told this line and it set a pastor was saying to me, he said, God will take away opportunities. He knows you don't have the character to sustain. But here I am. Right? As a man, like I'm sleeping, I'm sleeping on a brother's floor, working at glue, being a servant, reading scripture, doing prayer, doing all the things I'm like, no, I'm doing I'm crushed in light, you know? But that hit me. And so I was in that space of like, okay, doing all the things to be a servant, but I'm not getting blessed with this opportunity that you, I thought was part of my, my story. So yeah, I don't know. What do you think Danny, like as I share that, like what comes to your mind? I think there's some truth to that. That like God will never lead you to a path where you're just going to destroy yourself, right? I think opportunities that we are in, especially when it's led through our need. Like you said, like I couldn't afford to do this. So like God shapes our lives in a way where we need to depend on other people and to humble us. I think it's, yeah, to shape us. And he's never going to give you something, especially if it's in the back of your mind, you expect it. It's the thing of like, there's a difference between expecting and anticipating, right? And the best illustration I use as a football player, like you're a cornerback and you know this wide receiver and you know all those moves, but you don't know what he's going to do, right? So you can't expect one thing because like some athletes cheat, right? And then they get burned. But when you're constantly anticipating, then you're like focused and you're like, okay, this happens. I gotta do this. This happens. So I think it's more like that of like every opportunity is for you to gauge, are you aware of yourself and how you should be like you mentioned before, like modeling Christ. Because at the end of the day, I realized that like the most important thing is people believing, right? Like what are you believing about yourself? What are you believing about your reality and how does that play into the belief of God? You know, I think what you said, there's gold in what you said because I think, I often, we don't realize that, I think often we don't realize is that those lies, that messaging that we carry, that it's residue and that residue that carries into everything you do, it carries into your work, it carries into your worship, it carries into your marriage, it carries into the bedroom, it carries into wherever you may be. Like if you don't go and sit and tender, be tender to your sub and your old self and like actually like excavate and heal those things with the help of like friends or mentors or pastoral leaders, you're truly not going to show up well. And I think going back to like the tech side of things, you know, I think about all the people that work in tech that don't get to work in places that are that don't necessarily encourage like faith conversation, how their days are, you know, because what's their attitude towards their work, I was what's their posture towards their work and it leads, I mean, you know, I'm not saying just because you're a believer, you won't be burnt out, I've burned out, but I think I think about like some of my friends who are non-believers, the struggles they go through and them not being in community, what it does. And so yeah, it's a, it's a really fascinating thing. And then one other thing I want to just say is you set a line which is around the self image, like that is, that is so critical. Like I think when I make friends with people or, or try to mentor others, it really comes from a place of I want to understand how do they view themselves, do they view themselves, like they could be, you know, the president of the United States or like, you know, there's like a big like do they have not confidence about themselves or do they, is there truly a suppression and minimization of their potential? And I think that's what makes me cry, actually, is when I see the people closest to me not living out their potential, yeah, it's heartbreaking. I totally agree. I would just nuance the words differently because someone said like, I never used the word potential anymore because potential is about like what you think I should be rather than who I am. Right. Like that person is like, no, I'm going to make it right now. But where I resonate with you is this, people think too much less of themselves, right? You know that Tim Kelly, quote, humility is not about thinking less of yourself is thinking less about yourself, yes, like, meaning like, even when I, and I don't even know if it was a struggle, I just never thought I was special, right? And it was only until like I realized Jesus is special and Jesus never going to let me fail and hit what he has for me. That's where my confidence comes from. I think we need to help people resonate like, you're not special because you think you're special. You're special because you're made an image of God, right? And everyone has value. And so yeah, I think it just comes out to love more and more I'm realizing I am learning how to love myself, right? But I'm learning to love myself in the version that I believe God made me to be in my strengths and weaknesses. Yes. And to lead it to step into those weaknesses and embrace them. Yes. Right? Like, because my weaknesses kind of show me like where I'm prone to like get distracted and like, like follow the world, right? And I got to say no to those things. So my weaknesses are actually teaching you how to say no to become more of the strengths that God has placed me in. No, that's beautiful day. That was beautiful. No, I appreciate that. You know, I feel that in this podcast, you've actually, you know, you ministered to me by sharing like some of the stuff that is resonating with you and how you're like riffing with me back and forth. I'm thankful. Thank you so much. I think the Lord is so good and gracious. So what happened after glue? How did you get into saltwater? Well, is this salt and light? No light. Salt and light. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I could share that story. Well, basically, after glue, I, you know, I really wanted to take my shot at entrepreneurship. And so actually, I ended up starting a software agency for mission driven companies and got to work on a whole slew of different problems, really exercised with a generalist in me. You know, it was a software agency that highs are really high and the lows are really low. But I learned so, so much and had a really epic team and we got to just, I think it was our first real shot at business, like doing a business together and we learned so much. Year and a half in, I ended up realizing, okay, I don't think this is like good for me spiritually. Not that the projects were incredible. It was just that I was pushing myself to the, to the bone and I didn't know how to set boundaries. I was young. And so I ended up stepping away from the software agency and I moved to Argentina and I moved to Argentina for six months. So I paused there. Yeah. What makes you have questions? No. Like, what was the driving force for you to burn? I think I had a lot going on while I was building the agency. I took on a second job to try to float the salaries of the employees outside of the agency, which is really fun and rewarding. But it was just really hard and then at the same time, my dad ended up having a stroke and then getting a car accident while I was just getting the agency started and so I just had a lot of pressures like both like taking care of the team, my family and then at the same time, clients is another pressure because you have to deliver on what your clients want and so yeah, I think just all three of those different things all kind of happening at the same time that was unpredictable, it was really hard and I think, yeah, I didn't delegate well. I'll also admit that from my own fault and so yeah, it's what kind of led me to spiral into that direction. I had my first anxiety attack, all of a sudden I was like, oh, that's not real and then I got it. So the reason why I asked is because I burnt out at my last preview church. I was like five years and I was literally doing a lot, like I was working like seven days. But when I look back on it, I really felt the pressure that I had to do it. So the driving force was like, I'm upholding this thing and if I let go, like, it's going to crumble. So I'm just curious as to you, because for me, it was like really fear driven, right? It wasn't really like joy driven, right? So I'm just curious as to you, like, was that a thing? Like could you say you felt the pressure to uphold everything? And now looking back, like did you learn from that, are you operating differently now? Yeah. I mean, totally. I think what you said, like, feeling like you're carrying the weight of it, for sure. And I think it's as an early leader or founder and something, you care so much about, like, it's like a baby, a company's like a baby. And so you care so much about it, you obsess over it. But you also, you know, each hour that I'm putting in or whatever it was that I had to step up and do, it's to get revenue for the business so that we can pay the salaries because there's people's families like I am, you know, the responsibility of mine. And I think that posture is a great posture to have, but you have to also recognize the benevolent detachment aspect of this. And this is how I'm operating differently is realizing what salt light. So for example, and I can share more about how salt light and how that started, but what salt light is, you know, it's a startup and we're trying to figure out all the things. But I think this time is like winner lose. It's not because of my shortcoming or like another team member shortcoming. It is truly like the Lord's favors on our team and I sit out with a deep amount of humility. But if it will, if this company doesn't work out, it's because like the Lord had plans for this to not actually like work this way. And it's not why will. And that's how I'm operating differently. So easy to articulate that now, but the amount of pain that I went through to be able to even articulate that now to you and to say that with confidence, that's how I'm trying to operate. Yeah, I can't even sum it up into words like that pain and those hours and the struggle and that feeling of burnout. I can't truly articulate that. No, I mean, I completely resonate with me. I think everyone should do a startup because you learned so much about yourself. Yes. But like I've gotten to a point where I realized like if God doesn't bless it, it's not going to happen. So every day like, yeah, I do what I need to do. I have obligation responsibilities and I don't want to fall short of those. But outside of that, like I need to operate in faith of like, oh, like you've taught, like I believe God, let me all through these opportunities to teach me, not just about me, but just skill sets, right? And because I trust in those skill sets, right, I just know how to do it. So as long as I'm doing it, then I leave the results of him. And it's such a more freeing way to live, like it works. And that's been the biggest shift for me. It's amazing, amazing, yeah, I thought in light, like I'll answer your question around that too because I think you'd ask like, salt and light has easily, it's easily the hardest thing I've done, like in my career. So it's a game, right? Let me let me introduce that real quick. So basically, you know, the problem we're solving is that there's loneliness, epidemic in the world. And people aren't. There's just doesn't many, many things really well. And one of those things is small groups. And so our team wants to bring small groups to the masses. And we're not just building another group management tool, no, we really want to come in with like a imaginative on diagram right now, group management, games, and a third space. We want people to really dwell in this space and not keep you there for countless hours. But a space where rather than just a WhatsApp group or a Slack, which most small groups or community groups use, there's shallow interactions in those. So if there's like someone literally like saying, I need prayer for this something, all right? I'm struggling with this thing. I need help with this thing. Well, we hard it or we hit the prayer emoji. And it's a shallow interaction. Our app is really doing a play on audio. We have like audio based games and we have other intentional games baked into that experience. And so that's what we're building over at Salt and Light. And it's like bringing the people that are experiencing loneliness, self-doubt, whatever it is, get them plugged into a small group. And the, what we want to do is empower like group leaders that are in the existing church to like use this as a way to start having intentional conversations with your neighbors or with people at work or with people, you know, just in life that aren't church goers and say like, Hey, I know you're about to be like a first time dad come join the small group that I learned with other first time dads. And now this person that isn't plugged into that community is sitting there in this space going with all their self doubt with all their things realizing, wait, these other people also struggle with the exact same insecurities that I did. And so that's what we're building. I'm super excited that we as a team are doing that. And every single day there is so much hope. Every single day that I've been able to work on this with this amazing team, I get injected with hope. I hope comes always at the right time of the day. Like there are mornings I wake up out of bed like I would be a complete lie to you right now. If I was like, I would come up and I'm like, yeah, this is the best thing ever. No, like as I've always I wake up and I'm like, Oh, I've got to go to stand out. It's going to be. Oh, we just paid that like lawyer bill. Oh, we just, we had an investor say no, but for some reason with this team, all that like trying to carry it on my shoulders and all that stuff, we just have a unique dynamic and each team members ministered to me despite this being the hardest thing I've ever done. You know, so yeah, I share that just because as a, as a person that's like founding something, like if you're listening to this and you're like, think about starting something like, the team is a really important thing and our team does like weekly prayer. And that has minister, I thought, you know, I was like, weekly prayer, like whatever. You know, that time, consecrating that time for the week, our discussions, our conflict, it's been a game changer. And so yeah, I'll pause there, but I wanted to just like, lead us into that space to talk about that because I think with faith, you guys are doing really something really powerful with the LinkedIn for like, you know, faith communities and administrators, that's epic. And we're over here on the other side of the problem, trying to like connect people to people like you, like all these ministry leaders and how do we, how do we do that, you know? So yeah. Yeah, the prayer thing is actually really real. Like when we first started, like, Alicia, my co-founder, she would like say, oh, let's pray, let's pray. And so I just got into habit of doing it. But like in the beginning, I'm not going to be like, it was just like, not normal for me. It wasn't normalized where I like prayed like in every meeting and stuff. Like after like the year mark, like, I found value in it that like we're actually posturing our hearts, like in our meeting before like we go through all of our agendas and stuff, like Lord, we really wanted to be you, you know? And it like set the seed of reminder like, why am I doing this? And now it's like, we are not to pray because I feel like, no God, I want you to bless this. I'm going to like pray, you know, like make sure my heart's right, my mind's right. It's a pure. So yeah, I completely agree to you. Like, and I love the word you, the word you use, consecrate because I think we're so detached from the idea of consecration and what holiness is. We think holiness is pure, like, untouched thing, but it just means it's just set apart for like a God's purpose, right? So yeah, you want to go more deep into that, like, what do you want to share? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. For sure. It's, it's, it's fun because that is, I've had, I've two, two important people shout out right now, like mentors wise and that, and I'm going to tie it into what you just called out around people. The first is Jim McCoy, softer, I had my crazy panic anxiety attack. He does like men's life coaching and spiritual direction. So I got to work with him. I was so, so informative because we got to go into those, those woundings and traumas that I experienced. I was great. And the second is a man named Herman Kim. Herman Kim runs a nonprofit called Anazale Ministries out in California, Orange County. And so I'm, I'm doing spiritual work with him and I, I bring this up because those two men have really helped me step into identity of my name. So my name, real quick, Amar, in Arabic, Umar is like to build and in, in Spanish, it literally means to love and in Hindi, it means forever. And so I always tell people like my identity and I want them to try to step into is I want to build things that love people well forever, that's truly what I want to do. And I think I was always insecure about that. But those two men that I call Jim and Herman, they've really helped me learn how to pray. Like I really had a shallow prayer life, like beforehand, like I would say to people, oh yeah, I'm praying for you or like I'll be prayer, but I didn't speak with conviction. And now I can confidently say that I'm still not perfect, but I love better than what I was. You know, and it is so beautiful. And being able to do pray like with our team and to pray for the members of the team, and also to pray for our small groups that are already on this app, to pray for the stories that will come of it. It helps me just reground myself. I'm not in control. Every single time I say a prayer, I realize I'm not in control because I'm, my posture is again looking up to the heavens and saying like, I get everyone and everything to you. I don't truly know. So yeah, yeah, that's it. I have a hot take. Um, this week. I realized free will is such a lie, right, because every decision we make, it comes from a source within us and a desire. So we're actually enslaved to our desires, which is why I like God gives us new desire. But what God gives us is not free will. It's self control, right. And that's why the fruit of spirit, the last thing in self control is that like, are you able to say no to the things you're supposed to know to and the essence of things you're supposed to yes to? Of course. Rather than like just be drawn because there's something inside you that feels this is right. And then I was like, man. And so yeah, like I think prayer helps with that too, like it, it aligns, I see prayer as an alignment, right, of like you being with his thoughts and his feelings. And so you know the path you go to. Did you read Tim Keller's book on prayer? I don't think I have a lot, which one should I read? It's literally just Tim Keller in the title's prayer. It's actually an amazing book because he goes to the background of like what people think prayer is, like it's just communications, but it's so much more than that. And like there are things we can learn about like contemplating and introspectating. And well, it's just like Tim Ross, you know what Tim Ross is? I feel like I do. Is that the guy who says upset the grand? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the basement, right? The basement, yeah. There's just so much there about to be said, but I'm not going to do it. Yeah, he said something like he referenced like, you know, don't pray like the like the pagans or the religious people that just say a lot of words, right? And I used to think like, oh, just pouring out your heart and seeing things and just being loud and like quantity was the most important thing. But it's it's quality of quantity. Do you know what I mean? It's just yeah, connection and just getting your heart right is the prayer or just pouring out like like a distress or grieving. And that changed my mind of like, okay, he already knows my heart. Like what what is the honest words I need to say, right to him for myself. And so I see prayer like that more now is just because prayer can easily get into this routine of like, oh, we're just going to close our eyes and say things or like sometimes I felt like I had to say the right words that like spoke to people's hearts. But it's yeah, yeah, yeah, no, like if I ever pray aloud, it's just me talking to God one on one and people hear it and I I've started incorporating my prayer life to more of that of like honest conversation for God. It's like an honest podcast we've got, all right. Just yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, Danny, I would just say to that is like, you have to pray the way that brings you joy. Because that's how God would want you to pray, it's how God would want you to have that conversation. And I think when you think about prayer as a performance, which I'm sure there's already thousands of sermons on that, so I'm not going to pretend I have wisdom on that. It robs you of what it's designed for. Yeah. And the word that comes to my mind is just intimacy. You know, I, I think that the cool, the sooner people can find out about the power of prayer as a founder, it's like a lot, it's like a true startup hack, it's like hack because each rejection, each failure at a launch or a deadline or a certain like, you know, thing falls short, the moment you just turn to like rather than go into stock overflow for the answer or to Google or chat to be tea for the answer, but you go, all right, I'm just going to like pray not with like the expectation of an answer right now, but just the anticipation of like, I know that every time I do pray, the Lord stirs something up, so let me go do that. Let me go have that intimacy with him. It's just, it's a hack because the highs are really high and the lows are really low. I know I've said that multiple times in this podcast, but I really do mean it. And it's, it's truly, it's just a beautiful thing prayer, it really, really is. I don't have to go. So I'm going to ask you the last two questions. Um, please. What are you hoping for at Facely? Yeah. At Facely. You know, I, I actually was on Facely when Alicia introduced it to me back in, uh, New York, uh, while I was with Mission Alabs, like, going through the in person cohort. And I got on Facely and I saw what you were aiming to do. And I've seen like, I just logged in, I think this week and I finally like see now where it's like really headed. Um, and so you've done so many cool improvements, like the aesthetic is like way better. It feels like more like a, a network, you know, and it's very clear. I think I'm just like looking to really, um, connect with other like mind and individuals, but just like also like share any wisdom for anyone that's out there that's on Facely, like going, Hey, like I'm been doing ministry or I've been a missionary, but I've never worked out of startup or I've never worked in the tech. Guess what? It's like most of my team composition has been people just like you who've never worked in tech. And it's been a beautiful thing to be able to pour into them because someone took a chance on me. I would love to take a chance on someone else. And so if there's anything I can do for anyone on Facely, I'm just like guide you, lead you. Um, in any way, I can happy to do that. So that's what I'm hoping to do. That's perfect. That's exactly what I want people to do. So I appreciate that. Um, and lastly, how can we be praying for you and your family? Yeah. I think, you know, in terms of praying for me and my family, I think just, you know, would love prayer around just continued, continued humility in my leadership, in decisions I make, and how I carry myself. Um, so I would love that. And then for my family, I think just, you know, continued spiritual, spiritual discipline. Uh, I think that we, we, every one of my family works like super, super hard. And it's, uh, it's easy to neglect the spiritual rhythms that are so important, uh, that we've talked about in this podcast. It's just prayer for them, like soft in their heart, uh, to really prioritize that. So yeah, those two things. Oh, thanks for the conversation to the screen. No, of course. And thanks for having me. Yeah. If anyone wants to reach out, like message me on the faithfully, uh, website, or you can follow me on Instagram or LinkedIn at where is a mark? So there it is. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff, and volunteers. The Faithly digital platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection, foster collaboration, and promote growth within the church and ministry space. Remember to subscribe, rate, and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you. Stay tuned for more uplifting tales from the frontlines of ministry on the Faithly podcast. Stay bold, stay faithful, and never underestimate the power of your own story.