Called to Build Authentic Community - Eddie Dhanpat

My wife ended up getting very sick, ended up in the hospital and intensive care. It really knocked, not just down a peg, I mean it just knocked me out. So unfortunately, as is the case with many pastors that I talk to, when you go to seminary, nobody teaches you how to be a good dad, a good husband, and a sustainable pastor. So when this happens, I just had no margin left to really pull myself up from where we were as a family and continue to leave the church. So unfortunately, you know, a year later, we ended up having to close the doors of that church. Everyone, my name is Eddie Danpat, I am a pastor here in New York City, Queens. I'm an native from New Yorker, Mary, I have two kids, I've been a pastor for about 15 years here in New York City. The church I pastor is a renew city church and it will eventually become Little Mac campus shelter rock church. And this is my faithfully story. Welcome to Faithly Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life. Join us as we delve into their challenges, moments of encouragement and answered prayers. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff, and volunteers. Learn more at Faithly.co. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired as we unveil the heart of faith through stories from the front lines of ministry on the Faithly Stories podcast. Could you tell us about your faith journey? My faith story is not extraordinary compared to most people. I did grow up in a Christian home, but my father became a Christian late in his life. So I had a lot of struggles early on in his life and eventually he found Jesus and got saved right when I was born. Now like most people who grew up going to church, I lived one way at church and then I lived another way at school and in my neighborhood. And so I was really great at memorizing Bible verses and being a part of the Christmas programs for kids and things like that. In school I was a very different person. I had a lot of behavioral issues, I got in trouble a lot in school. And so my life went on like that for many years until about 18 where I had an opportunity to go to a Christian conference, that Christian conference was Urbana in 2000. And that conference really changed my life. It brought to the forefront of my mind and awareness that God was too big to just be the Lord of part of my life. He needed to be the Lord of all of my life. And so I remember there at that conference during one of the worship sessions, it was very, very picturesque, you know, it was a very idealic, you know, we were there worshiping through the new year and just remember feeling this overwhelming presence on me saying that I needed to commit all of myself to Jesus. And so that started me down a track of being much more involved with ministry and specifically I was involved with campus ministry. So I was pretty involved with campus crusade or now known as crew and did a lot of work with them at Queens College, which is where I graduated from. And when I was in college, I was wrestling back and forth between what I would do with my life as most people in college. And I was going back and forth between either becoming a doctor or doing something else. And I was fortunate enough that God put a doctor in my life and I saw how hard he had to work and I said to myself, man, I can't do this. This is an all-encompassing kind of thing. Like you can't go halfway with being a doctor. And so I just kind of said to myself, like I want to do the one thing that I really enjoy, which is helping people to understand Jesus better. And so that started me on a track to pursue ministry full time. And so I came out of college and didn't really have much prospects for a job and so I ended up jumping into seminary right away. And in that process, I also got married and so literally I'm in seminary. I get married and then I start working as a full-time youth and young adults pastor. So I did that for a few years and then eventually ended up in church planning, which is where I am today. There's so much there. One, who did you go to or bandwidth? So in New York City, you know, intervarsity and crew, there was a lot of overlap between what they were doing. And so I went to Urbana with intervarsity, but it was kind of like a group from Queens and then also a partnership with my home church, First Baptist and Flushing. It was kind of just a bunch of people, like maybe 20 of us, just kind of all knew each other, were in the same circles and then we all decided to drive down there. And funny story, I mean, we all piled into a big bus. And so some random person, I don't even know this person, this was willing to drive a bunch of college students and some young adults, it was like a uttering remember. I mean, from here, Chicago was at like 12 hours or something like that. It's like in the dead of the winter, you know, like I think at one time, like the bus overheated or something. And so some of us were like sleeping on the floor because, you know, not everybody had a seat. So like there were some people in the back. This is probably illegal at this point, but there was a few people that were in the back. We had to rotate like, all right, you're on the floor for the next two hours or whatever. And, you know, but we made it. We got there and, you know, it was a special time. Those are the best trips when you're doing slightly unsafe. A little bit, but it's just like we were like our waivers. So we were good, you know. So what was the struggle when you were younger about like being all in and not all in? Like in your mind, what was that culture? But when my dad got saved, he was as raw as a Christian could be, you know. And so he definitely struggled with a lot of things that, you know, plagued him early on in his life and those struggles like continued. And so, you know, sometimes like I remember like, you know, my dad, you just get real ghetto at one point, you know, with certain people. But then he would just be, you know, like during worship or something or, you know, listening to the word, he would be very convicted. And so, um, so in some ways, he, he, he, I saw him teetering back and forth between just like a, you could say like a worldly life and, you know, and a life that's more devoted to God. And so he'd almost normalized for me like, okay, this is, this is kind of what it means. Now, please don't hear me. I'm not trying to knock my dad, my dad, my, you know, my dad was one of those guys who was just, he was all or nothing. So, like he's the person who brought all of, most of my, my extended family, my aunts and uncles to faith, right? Like they were not followers of Jesus before. But when he got saved, he got so excited about it that he started going around sharing with everybody, you know, but this was his personality. You know, like he, he would, you know, he would, uh, hot and cold. Like he would just go back and forth between that. And so, um, so yeah, that kind of normalized for me. Like, okay, you know, like, I mean, one of my church, that's when it, you know, that's when it matters, but then like at home, you know, the rules are different, you know, and so, um, but, you know, it wasn't until I got older where I realized that I needed to live a more integrated life. What's your background and wolf and church back? Yeah. So my father and mother, they come from a small country in South America, called Guyana. So I am a Indo Caribbean, if that makes sense. So far enough back, you know, I traced back to India, you know, many generations back. And, uh, but, you know, culturally, I'm probably more alike to someone like from Trinidad or from Jamaica, um, we have similar cultural kind of similar cultural artifacts or whatever, you know, so, um, and so the funny thing that I say is like, my wife, she's actually from Pakistan. And so, um, although we look similar racially, we're actually culturally very different, you know, she's much more East Indian in her framework and how she understands simple things in life and I'm much more West Indian in my, in my understanding, in my, in my makeup. So what about your church? Was that a big story? That's right. Yeah. So I grew up Baptist. That's, you know, so funny stories. My dad was converted by like a Pentecostal church, right? So, you know, you know, he tells, are we all? Yeah. I mean, he tells a story like, you know, there was, there was, you know, God bless the, the old, you know, uh, abuela's from Puerto Rican churches that are, that are, um, you know, charismatic. So a group, my grandmother, who was also in the States at the time, she had been going to one of these churches, uh, in the Bronx. And so I don't know why she was struggling up into the Bronx, but she was there. And so she literally, uh, you know, my dad was trying to duck her, you know, many times because my grandmother wanted to pray for him and he just kept ducking, you know, and finally she saw that he was coming, uh, to come stay with her for a couple days and then she, my grandmother called all these, you know, these Puerto Rican aunties and, uh, they came down and literally they had like a full on, like deliverance, you know, uh, did some deliverance ministry on him. And, you know, my dad had like a very radical conversion moment for him, for himself. And so, uh, so started Pentecostal, but then the only church that was close to us, you know, he didn't want to trek out to the Bronx, the church that was close to us and he had some friends was a Baptist church. So if you could just imagine, you know, the, the switch back and forth. So I grew up primarily Baptist and that's the way I, you know, I, I, you know, dot, dot my eyes and cross my teeth theologically, uh, for the most part, but, you know, I have a great appreciation for the charismatic tradition and, you know, what it meant for my family and, uh, you know, what I think it means for the church today. So where was your first, uh, pastoral experience? Yeah. So I started at my home church. So a job had opened up there, uh, as the youth young adult sky. So I started April 2008 and I was married in, in October 2008. So it was a relatively larger church in the area, you know, a couple hundred people, um, you know, a relatively stable youth program, young adults program, you know, so it was a, it was a good starting point. It had its own issues, you know, and a little bit of a unique situation, but I'm not sure if you want to go into all that, but that, you know, it was, it was a good, a good place for me to cut my teeth. I'm actually more interested in your experience as a pastor being at a home church, because you know, the saying about the prophet is designed in his hometown. So I'm very curious as to what your experience is, pastoring at your home church. It's an interesting question, because I think I, I in some ways had a different experience that I think would be typical. Most of the challenges I had in my first, um, my, my first vocation were not because of people who, you know, didn't offer me enough respect or any, you know, like, you know, I was actually pretty well received, you know, by, by the leadership and some of the, you know, there's a deacon board, you know, that kind of governs the church in the Baptist setting. Most of those folks were very appreciative when I had joined, you know, I had a little color to the staff team, but also just because I had been coming up, I had been teaching the Bible, you know, there in different, different settings like people really thought, yeah, this was the right fit for me. Most of the issues I had was because of my own, you know, an experience like my own, my own naivete, you know, like I was not ready for the role that was put before me. And I definitely pay for it, you know, those first couple of years. Can you give some examples of your mistakes? When I had taken over the ministry, there was, there was a moral failure that had taken place in the ministry and the leadership at the time had decided to have me kind of come in. And in many ways, I was coming in from the outside. I wasn't a part of the youth program at that time. I had some relationships with people that were key in leadership to the ministry, but I didn't realize what the real issue was, you know, so I'm wired more towards like an entrepreneur. I'm wired more towards like, let's hit the ground. Here's the, here's the goals. Let's go get it. And so I come into this setting with people that were just hurt from, from the transition, you know, they're, they're one of the persons that they had loved, come to love and had been shaped and formed by, you know, really had kind of betrayed them. And so there was this gaping womb in them. And so rather than come at them with kind of pastoral care, I'm just like, look, new day, let's get going. Let's move in this direction. And it was absolutely the wrong thing to do. And so because of that, you know, you know, the, you know, literally within two weeks of me being there, the leadership team of the youth and young adults program had had gone to the leadership, the pastors and the deacons and said, we want this meant fire, right? Like, please get him out of the ministry. He's really bad for it, insensitive, all of those things, right? I was talking to one of the leaders, and I remember this, they were recording my conversation so that they could use that recording to take it to, you know, the leadership of the church without telling me, right? Like they like trying to spring things on me. You know, thank God, you know, I didn't say anything too crazy. But, you know, it was, it was very tense for a long time because I did not have a very high, you know, shepherding IQ at the time. I can totally relate. I think I convinced myself like as long as you're building, right? Then it's helpful to people. But only this year I'm learning, uh, shepherding actually is more important because people are so emotional, we're emotional beings. And that's just part of our like psychic spirit. Because my, my, my motto was always, I'm building the house, okay? They're gonna appreciate me after they build a house. Why don't you build a house? They don't want to live with you. Oh, I'd rather be like a homeless, but like love them. And then we'll figure out the house later. Yeah. It's, I'm glad you said that because I think that's just a common mistake we all make. And you know, when you're younger, like, yeah, people would tell me love them, love them. Like, I am loving them. Like, no, no. Yeah. So I appreciate that. So where did you move toward after? Yeah. So, you know, thank God there was some breakthroughs in the ministry. Some of my, my worst opponents became some of my best supporters. And that was pivotal in, in the ministry. And so we had about two years towards, I was there for about seven years. And so it just meant, you know, five years of like grueling, you know, but then the last two years were really sweet because it was really, I really felt like the ministry had come into its groove and we were kind of moving in the right direction. But in spite of all that, I still felt like I wasn't firing at all cylinders. You know, there was a part of me that was okay with managing ministry, but there was a part of me that really loved kind of the grittiness of like starting things, right? And so I really enjoyed that, that aspect of the ministry. So whenever we had opportunities to do it, you know, that kind of brought me joy. And so at this point, I had no idea about church planning or anything like that. I had, you know, no clue. All I knew about churches was that, you know, look for the big churches. They're the ones that can pay you, you know, you start off as a youth young adult guy, you work your way up as an, you know, so on and so forth. I had no clue about church planning. And then, you know, as God does, you know, I was fortunate. A church planner came into my life. I was planning a church in Queens and, you know, I, I saw what he, what he was doing and I thought to myself, man, this is exactly what I would love to give a shot. I'd love to put my hand towards. And so that kind of started me down a route of church planning, you know, and so I, you know, I started going down the route of church planning and the first church I planted was Mosaic City Church. And, you know, I did it in the worst way possible. I planted that church with no money, no people, no experience, right? But, you know, I had connected with a program in New York City. It's called Redeemer City to City. And they, you know, they kind of acknowledged some of the gaps I had in experience, but they said they saw that I had scored high on like entrepreneurial gifting and, you know, you know, skills and capacities. And so they said, all right, you know, this, you know, we're willing to give you a shot, you know, you know, so we'll train you and, you know, kind of send you on your way. It was a great experience, you know, that first church plant. But, so, you know, being on such a precarious foundation, right, no money, no people, no experience, you really just kind of like running out there on faith and hoping that stuff happens. We did okay. We launched an Easter of 2017, I think, you know, 16 or 17. We launched that. We did okay. We're about 120 people at our launch service. Again, not, not crazy numbers, but considering where, where I was and, you know, what we were able to do. And then being in New York City, you know, we thought that was like success. But, you know, as, when you're on a precarious foundation, any small wind can knock you over. And we had a health scare in our family. My wife ended up getting very sick and was ended up in the hospital and intensive care. And, you know, it really, it really knocked, not just down a peg. I mean, it just knocked me out. And so, and so unfortunately, as is the case with many pastors that I talked to, you know, when you go to seminary, nobody teaches you how to be a, you know, good dad, a good husband, and a sustainable pastor, right? Like, you know, listen, I have so many classes I've taken on how to read the Bible, how to interpret it, how to preach it, right? How to care for people, leadership skills, but like self-care, you know, and rest and doing things within your margins, you know, like these are things that were not accentuated. I mean, I think nowadays people are really pressing into it. But when I went through seminary, it was not the case. They just kind of assumed that you did it or that whoever you are working, whatever church you're working with, they were kind of working these things into your framework. But the truth is, you know, I was very lacking in this area. And so when this happens, I just had no margin left to really pull myself up from where we were as a family and continue to leave the church. And so unfortunately, you know, a year later, we ended up having to close the doors of that church. But do you feel like if you've done something differently, things would have changed? Yeah, you know, I think the danger I think with church planning and then I think just starting businesses in general is like people who are wired like me, I think wired like you as well, I think, you know, is, you know, it's very easy for us to divert attention and energy, you know, and like pipe it into this one thing you're doing, right? So pulling, you know, from reserves, from every aspect of my life, from my family, from my health, you know, from sleep, you know, and just kind of like divert it all because we want to see this thing that we're super excited about succeed, right? And, you know, the way I rationalized it in those days was like, well, you know, similarly, like, you know, people be happy once we build a house, right? Or, you know, for me, you know, once the church gets started, right? Then I can pay attention to all these other things, right? And I think the lesson to be learned was that, you know, I'm human, right? And if I don't rest, if I don't take care of my health, if I don't, if I don't direct attention to my kids and my wife, if I'm not present with them, or I'm not even able to be present with them, because I'm weighed down by all of the things that the church needs for me. If I don't make those boundaries, right? Then I'm really setting myself up for failure. And it doesn't matter how strong the church is, or it doesn't matter what things you may put in place, like you legitimately have to be empowered enough to say no, right? And so I didn't know that was a thing when I was in my first church plan, you know, I just figured, like, look at all these people and look at how hard they work and look at how crazy, you know, that, you know, their schedule is, and that's why they're successful, right? And then when you press in, you're like, no, that's not why it's successful, you know, it's, it's usually a whole host of other things unrelated to how much work you're footing in. And so, and so that, I think the biggest lesson for me was recognizing that it's not selfish for me to take care of myself. It's not selfish for me to put boundaries around my family. And God's going to be okay if the church doesn't grow 20% this year because I diverted my attention and time to myself and to my family, right? He's okay with that, right? So that, that, that I think is something that was important lesson for me to learn. So the transition to, okay, then what happened after, did you start renewing right away or took a break? I had a lot of PTSD, you know, from church planning after that, you know, I just was, you know, I was upset at God, honestly, just like, why you put me through this all, you know, like you, you know, I'm out here trying to expand your kingdom and you, you just kind of let the worst things happen to me in my family, you know? And so, so honestly, but at the same time, you know, I also had put so much into this, like, you know, I had financial needs, you know, at this point, like I was like down to like the last penny I had and, you know, at the time my wife wasn't working. So it was just kind of like, you know, frustration with God, but also recognizing I need to support my family, right? I need to pay bills. And so, you know, I was, I was thinking about pivoting and starting a different career, but I'm like, man, anywhere I start is not going to pay as well as if I start working as a pastor somewhere else. So that was kind of in the backdrop. And God was very fortunate to me, again, providing me an opportunity to work at a phenomenal church, you know, I had an opportunity to work with a church here in Queens that really specialized in kind of emotional health. And it was exactly what I needed. I needed a space where people who are respected were pushed me in this very important area, you know, like I remember the one of my supervisors saying to me, like, if you don't take a sabbathe, we're going to fire you, you know, like that kind of deal. Like that's kind of how serious they were about emotional health and wanting to make sure that their pastors really lived this out. And so now the role that I had taken on at that church, you know, probably wasn't a good fit for me, but man, God used that as a great season for me to really figure out some of the core things that I can't neglect if I want to be able to just do life for the long term without like hating what I'm doing and, you know, ostracizing my wife and my kids and, you know, really allowing things to take a toll on my body. I was there at that church for about two years and it was, it was really important for us to be there. So do you want to hear that, you know, kind of how we got into church, how we got into renew? Okay, so, so, you know, I was kind of coming up to my window of time with this church and I got to a place where, you know, it was kind of like, you've got to figure out whether you're here with us for the long term or is it just kind of a stop off? And as much as I love the church, I kind of realized that this was not my best contribution to the kingdom. I didn't know what it was, but this was definitely not it. And so, so I kind of had said to the church and say, look, if you guys would be gracious enough to me, you know, I don't want to waste your money by taking on a role that you're hoping that I take. So, you know, would you be willing to just, like, give me a month to figure out what my next step is, you know, and they were gracious to me. They said, sure, you know, we appreciate your honesty and, you know, we'll give you a month just to kind of figure out what your next step is and then, you know, we'll kind of send you off with, well, we should see, you know. So, so in that month, you know, I just started processing God, what's next for me? And again, everything's on the table, you know, working outside of the church, you know, at this point, we were a little bit more stable. My wife was working and so we were at a place if I was going to make a shift that we could have done that. And God just started to line up certain things that pointed us back into church planning. And the most compelling thing was that, you know, of anybody in the church planning, my first church point that really got hurt the most, it was my wife, right? I mean, physically, most of everything, right? And we started having a conversation and she said to me something that really just stopped me in my tracks because I never expected her to say this. She said to me, you know, when I think back about our mosaic time, I really felt like we were robbed, right? I really felt like we never got a chance to actualize the community that we felt called to build. And when I heard that, I said, what, you know, where's this coming from? You know, like of all the people to strike off church planning off our list, it would have been her because, you know, that, and truthfully, I was hoping she would because then it would just really say, all right, you know, I'm just going to completely divert and do something different. And so she kind of opened the door for us to even start thinking about church planning and then sure enough, as we started walking down that road, just got started lining up stuff. And so there was a church in base side, another church plant that had been going on for about seven years, that was kind of coming to kind of the end of its season. So God, this is really what you would have for us. And you've got to line up these things because I'm not going to, something is not right with my intuition in many ways. I'm a little too crazy sometimes. So God, you please line this up. If you line this up, we'll go. And so, you know, we were living in Cougar in hills at the time. And God just started making things converge into base side. So first my wife, she gets a job, you know, basically right outside of base side, my son gets into a school in base side. We were trying to move him out of the school. He was in to get him into a school in base side. He gets in. And then, you know, well, I got, we need a place to live if we don't have, you know, we can't work out. And then sure enough, you know, a place opened up that was phenomenal. And right in our budget, we said, all right, all three of these major things in our life, all happening within a month and pointing us into this, this base side area. So, so we made the move and, you know, took a, took a role with this church plant. I learned from my last experience, you know, instead of coming in trying to just create new direction, I said, look, I'm not just going to stick with you guys for the next year. I'm going to love on you. I'm going to preach the word of God because at the end of the day, my goal is that you still love Jesus after this process. And so, so I did that, did that for one year. No, no strings attached, just showed up. And after that one year, you know, lots of people had transitioned out. But then some people that I was close to started to transition into that community. And then after that one year, we kind of felt like God was saying, all right, now, now is the time for us to really step forward and do something new. And so the birth of the name of Renew City Church was really out of this idea that God can take all things and make them new again, right? And so, it was really a reflection in revelations at the end there when Jesus says, you know, I'm making all things new, right? It's almost like, in light of creation, it's like Jesus saying, I'm making all things new again, right? Like, you know, I already had created it was good. Things got messed up. But all right, no worries. I'm going to make this new again. So that was kind of our story as church planners. It was also the story of the community that we were bringing into this new direction. You know, and so that's kind of how we latched on to it to that idea, that story, that narrative. And that's when Renew City was birth. Yeah, I need to get my wish on because I have so many questions for her. By the way, for anyone who's watching, I don't know if they realized, like, I go to Renew, it is my pastor and from, so I have a question, like, how did you connect with Center Point? Because I found out about you guys when I started, like, church hopping to find the church, I kind of settled on Center Point in Meso Pico, but it was like so far, right? And then I heard about Renew and I was like, oh, let me give it a shot. And then like, for me, I've always just known in the presence of something that clicks. And like that first Sunday, everything clicked, I was like, oh, I'm home. Okay. And so I've been with you guys ever since. So yeah, how did that happen? Yeah. First, let me say, you know, Danny, we love that you're a part of the community, and you're definitely a handful. But if we love you down the line, I'm just kidding. You know, Danny is phenomenal. He's not kidding. Yeah. So how we connected with Center Point and Brian McMillan, Brian is a is a phenomenally gifted spiritual entrepreneur, right? Like, I mean, you know, to call him a church planner would just be like a down, this man is like, he just exudes starting new things and like pushing things forward. And so I had connected with Brian a few years before I had even started thinking about Renew. But when I had started planting Renew, I knew, okay, so my first church plant, you know, we were part of a network, but the network wasn't really a strong in New York City. And so the second time around, I said, we've got to find a network of people that will be able to love us supporters, care for us, understand this area to some extent, and are willing to kind of come alongside and help us. And so Brian McMillan is a part of a denomination, he's an affiliate with a denomination, phenomenal denomination that really got what we were trying to do and we're willing to come alongside of us. And so Brian was kind of the direct contact point for us, you know, when we were thinking about planting. And so, so that's how we got connected more formally with center point. You know, I love Brian, I love what he does. I think he brings, he brings an important piece to just church planting in this region. And you know, it was, it was, it was beneficial for us to be connected with him, you know, in the season that we were. So the reason why I ask is because like, I just view everything in my perspective. So it's like, I went to center point, I saw you guys, and then you guys launched in flourishing and then COVID happened every possible way, like Satan tried to kill the church, but like it showed your resilience. And I think in the early years, I didn't appreciate like, it's not just loyalty, it's just like this covenantal commitment you guys have that makes your community so special. And I'm not saying you like, I'm part of that, but like I felt like, wow, people just genuinely love and care for each other here, right? And not in like a fluffy way, because we get into some deep like talks with those guys, right? And you know, it's sometimes like a clash is, but like at the end of the day, we just, we just love each other so much. I was like, man, this place is so special. And I've only had a handful of those things. And in fact, that like, what we do is just simply to share our experience of faith and trust in the Lord. That's the thing that keeps me coming back and never wanting to leave. And I want to know like how you kind of like fostered that, right? And it was that what Mawish was talking about, like what did she mean by community in that sense? Yeah, you know, just a little bit of like our background in church, you know, we really were fortunate in our church upbringing, because we both went to the same home church growing up. All I've known since I've been young is like multi-ethnic church, right? Like my home church, first Baptist church of Flushing, they were actually cited by a urban ologist, I guess, or a michiologist, you know, back in the days, what was his name? Brian Bachey, or I forget, I forget his name. Anyway, he wrote a book on urban ministry and he cited my home church as like an example of like multi-ethnic church. Now there's a way back like in the 80s or whatever. You know, it's an old book, you know, whatever. And so I grew up in that context. I grew up, you know, with different congregations, different languages, different cultures. My most favorite memories from that church is like the poplux we would have. We'd have like these international dinners and phenomenal. I mean, you're legitimately having like not just like like like Chinese food and like Latin food and like India, I mean, you're having like down to the region, you know, and this is like this is like the grandma cooking, you know, this is not like the stuff you get in restaurants and like you're just walking around and this buffet and it's amazing, you know, and it was like there's so much food there that you couldn't fill it on two plates, you know, and you legitimately couldn't taste everything because it was so much from so many different places, you know, and that to me was like, man, if there's ever a picture of what heaven looks like, this is it, you know, this is the banquet table, you know, this is the image we get in heaven where there's like so much unique, beautiful things that every culture throughout history has contributed that like that banquet table that, you know, that first few days in heaven is going to be phenomenal, right? Because you know, there's all the cultures that have maybe not that are not around anymore, but then they get to bring their, you know, their delicacies in all, anyway, so, so I just thought, man, like this is what community should always look like, this is what church should always look like, and so similarly, when I was at Queens College, we also were a very unique campus movement and in, in, in crew, in that our campus movement was extremely diverse because at Queens College, you have a very diverse population that comes to the school, and so much of the Christian club was extremely diverse, people from everywhere, right? And so, so when we, well, and then similarly, my first job position as a youth young adults person was that I was the youth program was the only program that was integrated between all the different congregations, so you had, you know, the Chinese congregations kids would come here to Spanish congregations, kids would come here and the English congregation their kids would come there as well, and so you had kind of, it was the only ministry there that where there was this integration and required a really high level of, you know, navigating all the cultural differences, you know, and then, you know, the differences between like parents expectations and kids expectations and, you know, kids that are raised here in America versus their parents who are raised overseas and helping them bridge that gap, and so all of my experience has been building a community that I think is really what heaven will look like, right? And so, when we launched out, I mean, you can even just tell by the name of the first church plant, you know, Mosaic, it was really an attempt to say, how do we just you know, take what we've grown up with and, you know, replicate it, you know, how do we continue to, to, to flesh it out? And so, when we finally got to renew, it was really just very natural for us to say, this is the only kind of community we've fitted, you know, so the other aspect of this that I think is interesting for me is that the truth is, I feel, at this point in my life, I feel very awkward in a monocultural setting. Like, I don't, it could be all brown people, right? Like, you know, even all Chinese people, right? Like, when I'm in a setting that's very homogenous, I feel very weird. Like, I don't feel like I connect because part of my makeup and all of the, my life experience has resulted in me being a little bit of like a little bit more malleable and a little bit more willing to kind of like contort and because of that, I've picked up things from other cultures that don't necessarily fit in a more homogenous setting, you know? And so, so yeah, you know, in so many ways, I think the community that we've been shaping has really just unique because of the experience God has really allowed me in and managed to partake in, you know, for the majority of our life. That's one thing I never really understood about Koreans. I mean, I understood like the first generation because like language barriers, so you're having to be forced to like kind of be homogenous, but with like second and third gen because like, I'm always around like mixed people at school or at work or everywhere else in my life besides church, my home is homogenous. I'm just like, oh, and I like like diversity, like I love buffet, right? So like, you have a diversity of cultures. And so yeah, I never really understood. But I guess there's this kind of security and knownness and comfort. So I guess that part, but like, yeah, I guess my personality is like, I didn't like one thing. I didn't like boring to me. That's boring. I want like, like, for ID. So yeah, yeah, I totally get that. I think part of it too is like there's also a reality of like a very strong cultural identity, right? So a lot of the Asian cultures have very strong identities. I mean, they've been around for thousands of years, you know? So it's not as easy to, I think, you know, kind of let go of that because there's the, you know, like Korean culture, Chinese culture, Indian culture, right? Like, they've been around for so long that they've really come up with, you know, tried and true cultural practices, right? I mean, you know, there's not very many cultures that can say that they've been around for thousands of years and they're still moving forward, right? And so I am, I totally understand that, you know? So I think part of the unique thing about me is that because my parents are from the, you know, the West Indies, West Indies is very interesting. It's like a unique place. Again, just because of, this is just a unique thing about me. You know, West Indian culture is also a confluence of a lot of other cultures, you know? So growing up, you know, my, you know, there's obviously an Indian stream that contributes to West Indian culture, but there's also an African stream and there's actually also even an Asian stream. That's, you know, you can, you can chalk that up to the, to the British, right? When they were running the world and they were trying to, you know, procure resources from this hemisphere, you know, they were pulling from all the different people from, you know, the different places that the empire had touched. And so what ended up happening is that there was all of this confluence of culture, you know? So like, the way we make curry in the West Indies is different than the way they make it in the East, you know, the East Indies, right? Or there's an African delicacy, African dishes that we eat that's authentic of ourselves. That's not, you know, that's similar to what you would find in some parts of Africa. And then the other aspect is that there's a lot of the indigenous people that are there that also have contributed to the culture. So people from like the Amazon and stuff like that. And so we have dishes from, from then that is something that we would eat and enjoy, you know? And so my dad, you know, just to get a flavor, my dad would say that, you know, when he grew up in Guyana, that, you know, whatever the holiday was, whatever religion, because you have Christians, Muslims, Hindus, you know, and then you have the indigenous religions. He would say like, whatever the holiday was that everybody was partying, that's the religion you were, right? So like when, when it was Christmas, you know, the Muslims were Christian, right? And when it was Eid, you know, the Christians were most, you know, whatever, whatever the holiday was going, whenever it was holy, right? You know, and festival of lights and festival color, you know, everybody celebrated them, you know? And so you kind of had this, you know, synchronistic relationship between all the people there. Now, you know, you know, we can argue whether that's helpful or not or whether, you know, whether that is good for, you know, strong doctrinal purity or whatever, you know, but, but nonetheless, I think it really created a, a framework in my mind of the extent to which a community can really embrace people who are very different than them. So the thing about culture and identity is like, I get it because that's just how people grew up in a specific place and a specific time. So people always want to share kind of their experiences, but what I'm realizing more and more is like, when you move, like, even for me, like, I've born and raised in New York, right? But I lived in Atlanta for like two years. And like, the quote unquote culture there is like really different, right? And I'm trying to go out of L.A. and the culture there is different too. So as a Christian, so this is, this only applies in my opinion as a Christian. I think it's much healthier just in this sounds obvious, but I don't see a lot of people doing it is having a kingdom identity first and realize wherever you go, you're always going to be influenced by the culture. And again, we grew up in a household that had a culture because of our parents right through immigrants. So we should honor that, but we shouldn't hold on to it like it's a like a fundamental truth of who I am, right? Like genetically, yes, I'm Korean, right? I can't change that. But culturally, I'm more American than Korean, right? And I love Korean food. I also love Indian food. I love like all these other kinds. So all this to say, I think people get caught up because they're so afraid of losing something, they value, but they don't realize with every new generation, time changes, culture changes, we all mingle. And like, like you were saying, there has to be this renewal. So like, it's cool to honor the past, but what if I like fuse Korean and Indian together, right? Like a new fusion, right? So that's what I mean of like people are trying to hold too much of tradition rather than honoring tradition, but letting the new generation reimagine with the current context and stuff. And so that's it. Yeah, I mean, so I'm going to I didn't mention this before, but I think it's fitting, you know, it's as far as like what the theological framework is for me. I really early on in my like, my, my mosaic years, I really latched on to this concept of like being a third culture person, right? And so third culture, that language comes from a, a, a, a, a, missiology specifically in reference to missionary kids that maybe are white, you know, from America moving overseas. And then those white missionaries racing their kids overseas in a different culture. And then when those kids come back, they don't necessarily fit American culture, right? Because they were raised the way they think about the world and framework friendships are all different. And so when they come back to the US, although they racially and, you know, let's say family history and all that fits American culture, they themselves don't fit. And so they would refer to these people as third culture kids, right? Because they're kind of in between, you know, they have some of the pieces that fit the home culture, but then they also have aspects of their identity that are from the culture they were raised. And so I, I just kind of took this concept and I said, you know, I think there's a lot of people just generally, and especially in places like New York and maybe just major cities across the world, where this identity is also theirs, right? So here's what I mean. If you're a second generation American, you are essentially a third culture person because you have the, culture of your parents, which, you know, has its different uniquenesses and distinctives, but generally speaking, you're being raised in America. And so because of that, there's also departure from your parents cultural background. So what does this kid have to do? Very early on, they have to figure out how do I navigate between the culture at school and the culture of my parents? And so you see things like, for example, the kid will be translating for the parent, right? So because the parent doesn't have all the, the language skills and so that the kid's translating for them. So a very practical way, all the way up to, well, you know, explaining to mom and dad, this is how they do it here, mom. I know this is the way that it's done, you know, back home, but this is how they do it here, right? That kind of, of, of navigating, negotiating. And so what I wanted to do is to say to those people, that's a phenomenal skill set. That is an amazing level of cultural IQ that most people wish they could have. Because that ability is something beautiful. Now, what really took this up a notch for me is when I looked at like Ephesians chapter two, right? And you see there this language. This is the second part of Ephesians chapter of things, 11, 11 to 22, where it talks about how, you know, there was a, there was a dividing wall, right? Between the, the Jew and the Gentile, right? But Christ now is kind of like this bridge, right? Between these two people, he essentially is helping, you know, the, the Gentile, the kind of cross the bridge to the Jews and the Jews to kind of cross the bridge to the Gentile, where he essentially becomes like the person in between, right? And so, you know, in many ways, I, you know, if I could be so bold, I would say, you know, Jesus in many ways is a third culture, you know, person, right? Or, you know, third, third cultural God, right? You know, like God's desire is that, you know, that all the nations would be a part of his kingdom. And so how does he do it? He steps in the void and he holds the hands of these two disparate people group and he brings them together, right? And so, and then, you know, I, I think just reflecting further on, you know, like we see this, the final analysis analysis of it in revelations, you know, Revelation seven, every tribe tongue in nation is there, you know, worshiping at the throne. Now, you have to ask yourself, how does that happen? If you look at the American church, you would presume that you've got like, in heaven, you've got like the Korean church, right? Or the Korean section, you've got the, you know, the South Asian section, you've got, you know, the latino section, you've got the, you know, the African-American section, you've got the African section, you've got the white section, right? But, you know, how ridiculous is that to think that that's what heaven's worship is going to look like, right? There's, I don't see it that way. I see that it's, it's this, this mixture of people kind of moving in and out during this worship and, and, you know, connecting with people that are very different than them. Another beautiful thing about that revelations passage is that we also know that we're not just looking for some like homogenous, you know, meta culture, right? There's a, you know, we're in heaven and we've got our tribe tongue in nation with us, right? Like, that's not by accident, right? So, so what we acquire here culturally and, you know, racially and, you know, that comes with us, right? It goes into heaven. And so, so, so all of that just kind of tells me like, when I think about the kingdom of God, that of course we make provisions for like first gen churches that are coming, you know, folks that are coming from overseas, it's very hard in one lifetime to kind of fully integrate into the home country. No, I understand that. No problem. But man, we should be aspirational in our creating of community such that when we, when we build churches, man, they should be looking, we should always be aspiring to look more and more like that picture of revelations, right? And so we, we need to learn the skills to do that. And so, and, you know, one more thing I add to this is, you know, I think today most people agree with what I'm saying culturally racially, right? I don't think you would ever find somebody that would say, you know, I don't agree with you pastor, right? But what I think the new call of the church in America is to really think about this alone political lines as well. How do we do all of this, but also move beyond some of the factions we've created politically, where the church needs to be aspiring towards bringing these folks together, not watering down who they are, but, but figuring out a way for us to operate together and still worship the same God who's above all of these things. That's why I love the Trinity because the whole idea of oneness, but with distinction, right? Where you don't lose your like individuality yet, you can kind of be united. And I totally agree with you. I think we forget what unites us, and it's the name of Christ, right? When he's done, if we can honestly say, hey, we agree on this, and that's the most important thing, then all the other stuff is kind of like, you do you, man? So this you're not like hurting yourself, hurting other people, or hurting the body. Like, you know, you, and it's almost like marriage, right? You make the vow, and it's not like, oh, you gotta do this and this is like, no, you made the vow, right? The vow is supposed to keep you together. Yeah. So we'll see. I think it's also just, it's uncomfortable being in a situation where you're unfamiliar or like, you hear something so jarring and so different from you. Like, like, we, I think it's a human nature to be afraid of the unknown. Yeah. I think that's, that's a great, a great, I think there's one thing, you know, just to just to go back to the point about, um, why I think the church struggles with this is I honestly think that it's a hangover from like the 60s or I forget whenever the, the fundamentalists were fighting with the liberals, right? In the church, right? And what I think came about was like this kind of, it basically just PC culture, right? Like, ah, listen, in the public space, you know, like the sense of the liberals one, right? And, and we got to a place where we're just like, you know, you know, every, you know, be careful what you say in public, right? Because you're going to offend somebody. And, you know, this kind of became the prevailing thing in the church, right? And so like, even in the church, there's a hesitation to, uh, to like qualify everything we say because we're afraid we're going to offend somebody, right? Not again, I don't, there's some people who take this, this idea as a license to be just jerks, right? And I, I'm not, I'm not, you know, giving permission to those folks. But I, I think if, if the church got to a place where we were willing to say, um, you know, Tim Keller says it like this, right? Tim Keller says that, you know, that the gospel is offensive, right? When you really understand the core of the gospel, it's offensive. Um, but we don't have to be unnecessarily offensive, right? Um, we don't have to offend people unnecessarily on like second, dairy, you know, tertiary things. But where, where the offense is necessary is, you know, the gospel, right? The gospel is hard to hear. It's, you know, essentially that you're messed up and a real key component of this is that you're messed up, right? And that's, but you're also in your mess, God still loves you, right? And he actually loves you more than you can imagine. And so the problem with, I think the church today is like, we're totally okay with them. And God loves you. He's gracious with you. Um, but we've, we've lost this real sense of like, we can't forget that we're all messed up though. That, that we're, and, and beyond that, like, not that we're messed up, and I need to like whack you with a Bible, right? Or take the ruler out and not, you know, hit your knuckles, you know, because you're a sinful person. But just the realization that this side of heaven, we are not who we are intended to be. And we're going to fail, but God's grace is great enough. So if we can normalize that, right? Like in our communities, then that means when we have cultural disputes, I don't have to like avoid not, you know, hurting your feelings. What I need to avoid is being phony. And then in light of that, knowing that because I'm messed up, I'm going to have a messed up reaction occasionally, right? Or I'm going to make a mistake. And so I need to be humble enough to say, you know, I really made a mistake here. And I need to make a mess, right? Like let's normalize conflict in the church again, right? Because that's the only way that authenticity can really build. And so once you've set a couple things and you've heard a couple of people's feelings, but you're gracious enough to go back and apologize or you're, you're humble enough to hear feedback and criticism. That is not what you want to hear. Then I think we start to build a really beautiful community that the world looks and it says, man, there's something different about these people. But if we just, if we just want to hang out with like PC and like, let's just keep everything safe. And my goal is not to offend you ever, right? Then I don't think we get far, right? And this is why I think people look into the church and they're just like, what about this is, is special. You know, like, you take, just think about some of the people who are most popular now, even in the podcasting space, right? It's just, it's a lot of guys who are willing to say what they're going to say and are pretty irreverent about it, right? You know, when I think back to some of like the people, some of the pastors, key pastors, like 100 years ago, I mean, some of these folks, they had that kind of personality, you know, they think of like Charles Spurgeon, right? Again, not like Lude or irreverent, but man, this guy would, he would say what he felt and you know, you read some of his conversations, you know, he was smoking cigars, drinking whiskey and having robust conversations with people, not trying to protect their feelings, but just to kind of lay things out and also to be corrected when you need to, when, when the situation calls, call for it. Like, I think that's what we need to get back to. And again, I don't want to pretend like I'm the standard bear for this. I'm not, you know, I, it's what I long for though. It's what I wish all churches were like. And so, so that's in some ways what, what I try to, what I try to, to bring to bear, you know, in, in whatever, and however broken way I can, you know, this is what I aspire to to bring to bear. If you can say yes, an amen to that come to renew. It's a special special place. And it's exciting because I feel like a lot of people, our generation is feeling it and seeing it. And it's funny because like every time I think about Gen Z, I always thought, oh no, like these, these kids, but like they're the ones who are seeking the most authentic relationships. And, and so it's like, oh, it's coming. Finally, we get to like say what we want, but not in a way where like I try to hurt you. I'm just like, it is what it is. Let's work it out. So yeah, yeah, it's exciting for me. Listen, you know, I think when you look at some of the people, and again, hopefully I don't get myself in trouble here, but let's just say there's certain people in the political sphere, right? That you can criticize these people like left, right, and center. You bring up everything that you possibly dredge up about these people and you throw them at them and these people could care less, right? And part of the reason why is because they have already told you that they are this person, you know, they have recordings of these people doing, you know, you know, by most standards, you know, despicable things, right? And the reason why none of the accusations stick is because you already know this person is this way, right? Now if this person was trying to present themselves in a different way, and then all these accusations came up, well, that's where the disconnect and that's where that person would fall out of favor. But the fact that this person, as messed up as they are, has already shown you behind the curtain, you know, none of the accusations you could throw at them can stick now. And so in some ways, not in that negative way, but man, what if the church was like that? Like we, you know, one of the things that saddens me, you know, back during COVID is that there were so many Christian leaders that were failing. And I think honestly, when I reflect back on it, the thing that hurt the most is that there was a persona put up, you know, whether by these people or by the people that were marketing these people, as kind of like these, you know, saintly figures, you know, these people that we should admire, that we should follow because they're, you know, they're, they're, you know, them and God, you know, they're good, right? And then when they fail, and they fail horribly, I think what's at the core of that is not that they fail, but that they betray us, right? That they, they presented themselves one way. They lied to me, right? Because I think most people can get over our failures, because all we need to do is look at the mirror and we say, we see our failures clearly. It's the fact that they weren't authentic about who they were and their failures, that really caused the disconnect of the hurt and the pain that came out after their failures, that their morphodes. So I just think like, man, what if the church, like, like we, we get off of our high horse, we, you know, our pastors in particular, you know, get off their high horse, stop trying to protect their, their identity, so to speak, just be themselves, right? And try to call people to Jesus, that, you know, would that be enough? You know, I don't know, I don't know, you know, is, is America ready for that? I don't know, right? But I just know that's the kind of church I want to be in. And so hopefully we create a community that emulates that in some way. If you could go back and fix one regret in your life, what would it be? Oh, man, one regret, hmm, you know, people say this all the time, but I think it really is true. Like, I think that early on, I wish I would have been more attentive to my own personal formation and my own character building than anything else. And so I think we just, we just live in like this like microwave fast culture where, you know, we expect, you know, you put it in the microwave two minutes and it's ready to go. And there's a lot of examples of people like that that, you know, whether it's through acquiring a social media following in like a year or, you know, becoming very wealthy, you know, in six months or, you know, just people, you know, achieving things that, you know, are desirable in the world very fast. But what we don't see is what happens when they acquire it like 10 years later, right? And what manifest after that, you know, whether they keep what they have or do they blow it up because of character issues that just kind of get exasper, exaggerator, exasperated. Um, so when I, when I look back, you know, I think, you know, sometimes I say to myself, man, I, you know, I wish I would have pressed in on this when I was younger or whatever. But then I remind myself that I think maybe God knows what's necessary for long, for the long term that I do and that all of my, you know, you could say all of my mishaps or things that some would call failure, but really just God saying, um, I want to build character and I don't want to pretend to be, you know, again, I am not the character standard bear, right? I'm messed up as you know, um, you know, as you, as you know, firsthand, but I really believe that, um, where I am now, I really feel confident that whatever God gives me, that there's a good chance that I'll be able to hold on to it as opposed to if I was to get, you know, early success in life. Um, and so yeah, I don't know if that makes sense, but I really pressing in on character earlier on in life than anything else. No, that makes complete sense. I think unless you go through some really hard, hard stuff and then come out of it like matured, you know, you don't get to appreciate like the simple good things because they don't come around often or they're like really special because it's like so simple and with renew, like I didn't have to earn it. Yeah, like it just, I found it, but I didn't even find it, like I was in the right place in the right time and I heard about it, you know, and then I just joined it. And so I realized all the good things in life, they're free, but you just have to wait, and it comes at the right time in the right moment because even coming to renew, it's like at the right time at the right moment. So I totally understand, because I don't think I would have appreciated it earlier, because I would have complained about, well, the other stuff I think was important. And it's like, no, like the people here are so special. You know, when was your, I know she's the one moment with my whole life. That's a good question. When I, when we started dating in college, I had known her, known of her when we went to the same home church together, we went to the same Sunday school together and stuff like that, but you know, very different, you know, funny story. My wife's a twin and like, you know, she would come to the Bible, you know, her parents, you know, she would come to Bible study with like matching sweatsuits with her twin, her hair is like in a ponytail. I mean, you know, her parents were not trying to like, you know, glam her up in any way. So it wasn't like I, you know, it took notice her at that point. But when we got to college, you know, at that point, I was pretty active with crew. And I remember, you know, I had a conversation with her. I said, look, I'm thinking about going into ministry at this point. And so I'm dating you with the intention to be married. And so like, if you're not on board with this train, you know, now's the time to jump off. And when she said, you know, and this, this is legitimately like the first, like, first two dates or something like that. When she said, yeah, I'm down, you know, that was kind of like the, the sign for me that, yeah, this is, this is a keeper. This is somebody I need to hold on to. So because, you know, going into ministry, there's no promise of like fame, wealth, you know, that stuff, you know, you're, you're actually going in for like a really hard life. And lots of challenges. And and so the fact that she was willing to say, yeah, you know, I could care less about those things. I'm in it for the long term. That was, that was compelling for me. Yeah, it's the difference between, do you love the person or do you love the life, right? Or no lifestyle. Last two questions. What are you hoping for at Bethlehem? You know, I appreciate what you're doing. And I think that the, the connection that you're trying to build with churches is, is, is a positive good thing. And I know that it's still, it's still in process and you're building all the pieces together. But it's fun because it's not, it's not handcuffed to maybe some of the other social media platforms that, you know, really narrow what you can do and, you know, how you can connect. And so, so yeah, I'm excited to see where it goes, you know, and to see what, what, what further connectivity is able to be developed because of this platform. And how can we be praying for you and your family? Yeah, I didn't get into it much, but me praying for this merger, you know, it's, it's a big deal. It's a big shift. And there's a lot of differences, but also similarities. And so just praying at the end of the day, honestly, you know, hopefully this doesn't sound too cliche, but I honestly don't care about the results at this point. I just care that at the end of the day, people still love Jesus because of it. And so that, that's what it boils down to me, you know, like, I know I'm going to, we're going to make mistakes as we're transitioning, you know, there's going to be hurt feelings. There's got, you know, all of that stuff is, let's just normalize it. But at the end of the day, where I draw the line of the sand is people stop loving Jesus because of what we're doing. And so, so just praying that we, God guides our hand, you know, through this process. All right, thanks for coming on. That's it for the podcast. Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories podcast. 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