Choosing to Church Plant - Russel Rader

I remember praying, like, God, I want to do whatever it is that you want me to do, but like, I need you to speak to me, like, I really want to hear your voice, because I want to respond. And like, I was like, please speak audibly, I was like, I want to hear your voice. And so I walk around this park, city park, I walk around city park, and I'm just praying. After like a three hour, like, walk around the park in prayer, I heard nothing. And I was like, I'm coming tomorrow, and I went the next day, and I did the exact same thing, three hours walking, praying. And then I, at the end of the second day, I was like, kind of just off. I was like, God, I genuinely want to hear your voice. I'm trying to discern what you want me to do. I almost fell 10-biddle in at that point. I was just like, whatever, I just, you know, I'll do whatever. And then on the third day, I stayed probably halfway through, like, that time. I just struck me. I think I was like, you choose. Like, my will is like, very old. My name is Russell Rader. I am a church planter, a reunion church, a union square. I live in Grammar Sea with my wife, Katie, and my two kids, Rose, and who they're five and two. And this is my faithfully story. Welcome to Faithly Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders, as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life. Join us as we delve into their challenges, moments of encouragement, and answered prayers. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff, and volunteers. Learn more at Faithly.co. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired, as we unveil the heart of faith through stories from the front lines of ministry on the Faithly Stories podcast. Tell me how your faith journey started. Yeah, wow. My faith journey started when I was 12 years old. My mom, my mom was single at the time, moved across the street from a mega church in Phoenix, Arizona. And so she had grown up pretty back this, my dad had grown up Catholic. I don't think I could really name it at the time, but I was just really searching for a father figure and a mentor. And this, of course, came after a lot of reflection. We moved across the street from that church, and my mom sort of dragged me over there. I had never been to something like that. It was in this tent structure. They actually, in Phoenix, used these, they're called sprung structures. They used them for casinos. And so I told my mom, like, mom, that's not a church, that's a casino. And she was like, no, I promise it's a church. And so we went over there. You know, there was like hundreds of people in this room. And I was like, yeah, I don't really know what that is. That's for me. But then afterwards, she saw this sign for this middle school classroom. And she was just like, you're going. And my mom is not like a four-school person in that way, but she's like, you're going to this class. And saw like, all right, I guess I'm going. And the first person I met when I walked in would be someone who would mentor me for the next six years, who would spend every week with me, sharing his own journey, following Jesus. And it was like, he gave his life to me in that way. And it was really kind of all down there, after meeting Dustin. And I'm always, I always tell people, like, for me, I'm a byproduct of, like, discipleship. It's cool. How'd you meet Dustin? Yeah. So, like, I walked in. And the really, like, Dustin was the first person I met and he was, like, let's hang out. So I remember, like, early days hanging out with Dustin, just, like, grabbing a Coke after school or, like, going to McDonald's. And then he would invite me eventually to, like, a Bible study with the guys from church and the church. That church in particular was very large. Like, I think at that time, it was, like, 3,000 people. But it's crazy because, like, I was at that mega church, but never really, like, start, like, I was at, like, a mega church experience. It was, like, a one-on-one relationship with person. Was he just a way leader or, like, how did he get to know you? No, no. He was actually on staff as a youth pastor there. He's actually, like, mind blowing, he's still there. And I don't know how many years ago that was us, 12, I'm gonna age myself, that was 23 years ago. Was he doing this to all the other kids, or just, kind of, like, a few, or just you? No, there was a few of us. And he, like, I don't know, he was pretty young at the time, too, at a lot of space in his life. But what it ended up being, which was so cool, was starting my sophomore year, he would take a group of three of us. And so, like, very, you know, Peter and John and James, it is. I mean, this is bad for the podcast, you know, but the three of us would hang out. So, Friday mornings, 6am, at McDonald's, and we really were just spending time in scripture. We're reading CS Lewis. He would create challenges for us, which was just crazy. He would, one time, I remember we got there, and he's like, all right, so we're at 6am, where I'm at McDonald's, he's like, we're gonna spend one hour here, and we're only saying scripture. So, we would just come up with passage of scripture that we know. He says, if we run out of scripture to talk about, then we're gonna sit here and silence. This is crazy. And so, this was his discipleship process. He was just coming together, reading scripture together, and, you know, share and know each other in our lives. That's awesome. That sounds like a similar experience I had in youth group, my youth pastor. He was really big into, at the time I didn't even call it discipleship, it was just like church. But those one, like, year, we went to church, like, literally six days a week. Because it was just something every, like, in the summer. And it was like the best bootcamp I ever had, like, one week, it was like five days, and we literally read through the New Testament. Half the time I was sleeping, because it was on tape, and I was like, you know, it was just a foul, are you? Yeah, yeah, dude, I'm pushing you. But just that immersive experience, and then only when I got out, I didn't realize how unique that experience was. So for you, when during the process, did you, like, realize, oh, Jesus is for you? Yeah, I mean, if I'm honest, it was, like, rivals, like, my life was so good. I mean, I'm just 12, 70 grade. I, you know, I go to this church, here's somebody who cares about me, who sees me. And I'm like, wow, like, I think there's something to this. And so, in a lot of ways, I told people, like, I think for me in my journey and in my childhood, and, like, navigating my parents' divorce, like, Jesus came into my life at a unique moment of me, where I needed someone to, like, care for me deeply, right, where I was, and within six months, I was baptized. A year and a half later, I was like, I think God is calling me to full-time ministry, which, what, you know, ninth-rate-your-nose, what full-time ministry looks like. I thought, you know, you asked her, was like, you know, going to Walmart and shopping, and then, like, handing out with kids and playing video games, I'm like, this isn't called to that, you know. What I think it was, you know, subtly, those little challenges and those unique opportunities to be seen and cared for was like, that was actually all God's hand at work in my life. Those were all God, you know, on the background, working out his will for me. So for you, like, Dustin was a prominent male figure, but if you have other people, and how did that shape you, and how did that help you understand that word, Father, because a lot of times when you have a bad relation with your father, and people say, God is your father, it's like a negative, like, visceral reaction. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's so fun to think about, like, the ways that I always felt a lacking in that area. And sometimes it was just a disconnect. Like, my dad was so different, and my mom would always say to me, you know, think about your dad and focus on the positive things about your dad. She was, like, very pro-dad in that way. And then I think I felt like that, like, kind of emptiness there. And then Paul even says it in second Corinthians, like, he says, you've had 10,000 teachers, but you haven't had many fathers. And I always felt like, for me, as, like, a young man, that gap that God consistently used to show me he was faithful. And so it was just, like, Dustin. And then I got to college, and, you know, right away, I met a guy who was always inviting me over to his house and just inviting me into his family dinners on Sunday nights. My junior and senior year, you know, my preaching professor in my undergrad, who's, like, a father figure to me, really kind and caring. We ended up, our class was kind of small, senior year, our preaching class. And so he would just take us to coffee, and we would, we would need over coffee, you know, that was on Fridays too. And then my first job was a pastor. You know, I came out, I came out of college. I was passing very young. I was 22, I was pastor at his church. And my first boss was, like, a father figure to me, still is to this day. So, yeah, that, that, that sort of a weakness for me, as, as though I felt was a place where, like, God's strength came into my life for sure. You being a father now, like, how does that translate? Do you realize it's harder than that? Do you realize or, like, yeah? No. Well, I mean, there's so much to say there. Daniel, you know, the first thing I'll say is, um, outside 15, I go home. I go home at 5.15 because I want to, I want to be home with my kids. I want to be present for them, and I want to be available to them. But I think maybe the other thing to say is that it's made me, as, like, a son, it's made me more gracious, you know, towards my own parents, so they're shortcomings in their failures, and, um, you know, just try to, try to kind of live in that space a little, a little more free, um, done a lot of stealing in that area, and so I, I feel like for my own kids, it's like, I'm going to mess them up in some way. I just want to be able to apologize and ask for forgiveness from them. And so I'm just trying to show up more. But were some of the steps that helped you heal? Oh, um, well, I mean, there was a season that, like, you said, well, one, why didn't you share that? It's when I got married nine years ago. Uh, we got married. It's just, I'm so, I'm so excited to be a husband. And then I, you know, I kind of came to that realization, like, how, how about be a husband? Like, what is that really to look like? You know, I, I don't want to, like, live into, you know, everyone around me story. Like, how do I do that? Well, in my, you know, my own way. And I realized that, like, I had it modeled to me from some people, and there were some positive things from my own, you know, father, but really needed to, like, tune into, like, what that looks like. What does it mean to be a husband? What does it mean to be a man? What does it mean to eventually be a father? So, you know, I, I started reading, um, I picked up a bunch of books, um, book by the guy named John Sour's Manhood Journey. Uh, it was like a really healing to me. I was just telling someone about it recently, um, Richard Roer's, um, Adam's return, you know, the, the five crucial steps of, um, you know, becoming a man, picking up some of these resources were really, really healing to me, but then also, like, lamenting, like, what I, what I didn't have and what wasn't modeled to me and not being okay, like, I, I, I felt deficient in those areas because it wasn't modeled to me. And, um, you know, and then of course, you know, some, some really intense, um, therapy counseling was really good. But I say like an intentional season of, like, learning and leaning in, and, you know, telling my wife, like, I don't, I don't necessarily know how to do that, right? Like, my wife would tell me like, oh, you're just, you know, this is the feeling you're having. I'm like, I didn't know that yet, honey. You know, I, I didn't, I didn't touch that. You knew my feeling before I did because I was detached from it. And so letting her sort of, both of us learning, like, I can take that in. And she can deliver it a little bit differently. That's awesome. It's nice to have a partner who can, you know, sometimes, sometimes, sometimes it doesn't feel great in the moment, but my wife and I, um, I was past her at church in Kansas City. My wife was living here in New York, um, but my wife is from Kansas City. And so we were in a wedding together. We're both in the wedding. And my friend who was getting married was like, you want to meet, you know, your wife at my wedding. And I was like, sure, man, like, it's, that's how it's going to work. And so my now wife was in the wedding. We met there. I knew she was leaving two days later back to New York. And so I was like, I've got to get on a date with her tomorrow. And so the day after the wedding, we went on a seven hour date. Like two weeks later, we were dating. I was up here in the city, like a couple months later. And the rest is sort of, sort of history. Um, but yeah, would you grow up in Arizona? Yes, I grew up in Arizona. I went to school. Um, I went to a Bible college called Manhattan Christian College in Manhattan, Kansas of all places. It exists. Um, and then after college, I moved to Kansas City. And I was there for seven years past her in church. And so my, and my wife is from Kansas City. Was that the first church you were pastoring after college? Yeah. Yeah, I was there for seven years. It was like a wonderful like, um, it was like a foundational place for me to go and serve a lot of opportunities. Um, I was a really young pastor. I was single and it was just a really solid place for me. What did you end up doing there? Uh, let's see. Uh, my title, um, ironically enough, I don't really recommend this for a job description. Um, my title was the everything else guy. Um, and Dan, you may know that this is like actually, uh, go for this. Yeah. No, I really was. I served in a youth ministry for a year and a half. Um, I was, I oversaw, uh, all of our community groups. Uh, I, I was, I was preaching. And by the time I was leading, I was preaching twice a month there. And so really was, it was actually what it really was. Was a great, um, learning ground for church plan. This is what it was on my boss was like, you're, I think your church planter. He was really always very open with me and very like, um, thoughtful in that way. Looking forward, when do you go to seminar? When did I go to seminary? I went to fuller, fuller theological of seminary from 2000 to 20. And so five years hybrid, mostly, mostly online. Was that right after Bible college? Cause I thought there was a gap. No, there was a gap. So I went to, um, I graduated from Bible college in 2000. And then after about five years in ministry, I was like, I think it would be good for me to get some more theological training. My church tradition didn't, uh, I didn't need a lot more, um, like background and training. But I just, I thought continuing it would be good for me. And so, um, I went to fuller. No, you did the right way. I always tell people don't go right after undergrad. Cause yeah, it's, you need life experience. And like you need church experience, you know, and for me, I, I agree. And I also think that like going to fuller while I was, you know, in ministry for a season, and then also like preparing to plan was really good. I mean, I was fleshing out a lot of ideas. And I'm thinking about worship expression and social justice issues. And like there's just so many things you're thinking about simultaneously. And so I was, I was actually like, it was the perfect scenario for me. So when you're a pastor was like, Hey, you should church plan. Did you understand what that is? Because church planning is like startups. People think it's glamorous until you do it. Like, oh, wait, we're always almost dying. Wow. Okay. You know church plans. You know, he, yes and no, you know, I mean, I think it was like, it was like 2012, 2013. I think church planning and that season was a little more sexy too. You know, we started going to exponential. The church planting conference and it was like, if you're an awesome, successful pastor, then you can plant a church, you know, and then 2015, 2016 came around. It was like, I think that's the way church planting, you know, works anymore. And so I think I have been around enough of that world, enough of, you know, taking on a campus of our church, closing a campus of our church to really kind of take in what it meant. And I feel as though we were, we were really open in that season to trying to figure out about discerning what that meant for us. But yeah, I think all in all the training I was dating at that church was preparing me for whatever was next for us. And that church, I mean, the amazing thing about it was they, they, they really helped loosely to us. I mean, they were just like, we're open to, you know, God's calling on your life. I was like, hey, wow, because I was taking on more and more responsibility at the church too. Something that recently I've been changing my mind on is even the work church planting. I think it's more proper to nuance it as church birthing because planting is like you kind of plant that and you kind of walk away. But birthing is like, you kind of have to like incubate it a bit and then let it go. And I think that's just a better model of like getting churches built. Well, it's, I mean, especially if you think about, I was just telling this to a friend that we work right now. And so there's like all these tax startups, you know, around us and, you know, we think about like tax startup world. A lot of them are like, you know, like we're self-made. Like, you know, we built this thing from the ground up. Then, you know, then they sell it for $100 million or whatever, you know, that's the goal. And I'm like, actually, if I'm honest, we are anything but self-made, you know, like as a church pointer, like I am standing on the shoulders of other people. I'm propped up, like by dust and, you know, by dry and my old boss or by Jordan Rye, South Atlanta songs, like in Harlem, like we just like, we're the byproduct of their discipleship and their cultivation. And then quite frankly, they're financial support and they're like coaching. And so I like that. So maybe in your metaphor, those, all those mentors are just, they're actually just dolas, you know, helping, helping bird this church. That means serve in our slave and Greek food. There you go. Perfect. Perfect. I have no idea what you're talking about. So is reunion church the church you planted? Mm-hmm. Yep. And so we planted, we officially launched in 2020, September of 22 prior to that. I always had Renaissance church doing church planting residency up in Harlem. Wonderful, wonderful place. I mean, again, like in terms of like counting to your dreaming about planting a church, like really submitting to the process. I, when we moved here, I was like, I'm just going to get a job. I don't know if our trip to planting journey is like starting a year from now. I was starting five years from now. And so I got a job at Bluebottle Coffee and I was just a barista. But actually, like I was doing life contextualization work. You know, I was, I was, you know, asking questions. I would like, I put all these questions in my back pockets. I could ask my co-workers or, you know, customers that would come in. And then we're working at Renaissance for 18 months before they sent us out to plant reunion. But problem was is I was like late 2019, early 2020. And so it was, I was an interesting season to say the least. So how did you get connected to Renaissance? Actually, a handful of ways, our church planting organization for reunion and Renaissance is the saying it's called the Orchard group. They've been planting churches in New York since the 1940s, actually. And so that was part of the connection because I knew, I knew Jordan and Renaissance through the Orchard group. But also, we had a handful of friends. My wife from being in college at NYU had a lot of friends that had started going to church in Renaissance. So you went from Casey to Renaissance to do like a residency kind of church? No, no, actually a little, maybe stupid on my part is like, I came from Kansas City with no job and moved to New York. And went to Bluebottle and then got connected to Renaissance. And they were really gracious to take us in a white guy into a predominantly black church. So good times. That's stupid, we call that faith. Yes, and yeah, no, I agree. I mean, they even told me when I got there, like your wild to bring your pregnant wife to the city to find some church. I was just like, I think, you know, I think this is what I'm, you know, I was really still discerning that call into church plans. And I think I'm just trying to do the, you know, do the next faithful stack thing as I could. Yeah, I hear that even when you express like your job at Bluebottle and taking that as an opportunity just to get to know like, non-trick people and what's going on. Because I think that should be normal. But in fact, it's not normal. Like you're just a Christian, but you're also just a normal person. So you've got to like, shut it on and off. So I love that. Well, and if I'm honest, I was, I was learning at Bluebottle and learning a residency, like contextual ministry, like urban ministry at Renaissance. I was doing just as much at Bluebottle and figuring out what are the hopes of people in the city? What are the dreams? You know, someone is grinding on Broadway or has this created endeavor and you know, wants to do jazz in the city. Whatever that was, they want to create an app and they're working this side gig at the same time. I'm learning what are the questions? What are the people really searching for? And what are the overarching cultural narratives that I have to like tune into as a person and a pastor so I can really care about people. And like if I'm really listening to people's story and journey and figuring out like, where does God intersect with this person's story? I actually started doing it after a while before I did anywhere and they would say, they would tell me, you know, like, they would ask me crazy questions. I'd be like making a latte with a coworker and be like, hey, Russell, am I going to hell? And I'm like, I don't know, you know, passing in the open up though, you know? And so it was a really good cultivation of my own expression as a pastor outside of the church context. If someone asked me that, we like only if you want to. That's really good. I love it. So looking back, what do you feel like you learned in KCE, but you've learned differently in Renaissance? Mainly because just like the cities are very different. And I don't think people understand how different New York is and how different Manhattan is from like the rest of the country. And Manhattan is Mars, man. I mean, it's very sweet. This is like in one sense, it's like I took some of the like pastoral, like essential things that I learned along the way, some of like the biblical essential things, you know? I kept a lot of those and to, you know, my boss in Kansas City, he was so good at like organizational feedback and very like missions minded. So I was able to travel with him to Europe and to Africa. And so like there were some things that translate. But like so many of the other like family centric cultural narratives are just like, those are not helpful. They were helpful in Kansas City, but they're not helpful in years necessarily. Yeah, I would just say like re-evaluating the dreams and the desires of people, the work-centric nature of New York, like the willingness to grind and like put yourself out there. But I don't know, like maybe some of like the actual like time and rhythms are, you know, are different too. Like when I moved here, I was always trying to get people to like, hug me someone, I'd be like, let's grab coffee, 6.30 and they're like, yeah, no. Like let's get drinks and like, nah, I'm like, I don't know how to bed at 9.30. Like I'm old, you know? Yeah, so I would say everything's different. Yeah, no one wakes up early unless you have to or you're working in the markets. Yeah, like even me now, like I'm like, am I allowed to go like two-year-old? But pretty soon, like, he's going to sleep in more, I'm going to be sleeping in it too. So when you planted a reunion, did you take a core team from NSM's or how did that work for you? Yeah, they were absolutely wonderful. I mean, Jordan, the pastor there was always so kind to say like, hey, if you live downtown, you know somebody downtown, you want to go with Russell's like, go, go, go. And we had a handful of people respond to that, which was great. But I think even the relational network that you get from that, over time, is actually the valuable thing. Our unique tension was gathering up that core team of people and then COVID hitting the city. And that was the part that was just devastating because one of the things that we did in trying to like strategy was like, hey, what kind of relational network do we have? Do we have like good momentum? And so December of 2019, we were just like, we're just going to throw a Christmas party and we're just going to see what kind of network we really have. And so we had 75 people show up to that Christmas party. It weren't all going to be a part of the church. But it was an idea of like, how can we come about ground, share the name of our church and say that we're coming in the fall of next year. And we were like, that was the, that was a good thing. It was successful. So we started, you know, gathering people over dinner at our home January, February and March. And then, you know, COVID struck. And it was just like the last gathering we had is like March 15, 16, something like that. Like 18 people in our living room. And we were going around the table, sharing like what is like a story of like hope if you have one that you want to share right now. And like maybe a fear that you have around this new thing called the coronavirus. And that was our prompt, you know, for that dinner that night. So did COVID delay your launch? Oh, yeah, definitely. You know, I we shifted to like, you know, online core team meetings. And you know, in that season, if you're familiar with church planting, it's like, you got to go as wide as possible, figure out the relational network, cast like a wide net. So as many people as you can to tell them about what you're doing and let go meet as many people as possible. And COVID is like, here's the goal of COVID. Don't talk to anybody in person. And so instead of like going wide, it's like, all right, we have to go deep with the people we have. And so there were some positives. And I think for me, as a pastor and in that season, like I'm motivated, you know, I'm a go getter. And I feel really stifled. I felt there was a lot of like lament of like big vision and big goals of like, hey, those some of those things actually need to die in you. And like some of the like launch large metrics need to actually be tempered so that you can be in a place where you leave the the fruit up to God. Fruit matters. But it was a season where it was like, okay, I can actually let go of some of those things and care about the people in front of me. And so there was, there was some really, there was some rich stuff that came out of that season. Yeah, I'm being convinced more and more. Fruit is not something we see. Fruit is something we experience. And I think, yeah, somewhere along the lines, like, like God's been really, it's weird, because it has a similarity AI and the neural network and how your brain works. And I feel like he's like literally reconnecting all my understanding of just like the kingdom. And so one thing that's been constantly popping up is like, God does not need us to be great. He's great, right? What he needs are good servants, good sons and daughters. And as long as I'm being good wherever I am, he's going to do the great thing. Yeah. And like, and the gift of ministry is that we steward that like we like just doling out God's grace left and right. And it's like such an honor to be able to do that. So I would say with our our core team in that season. And I mean, I wasn't like gushing out like all my mess, but there were times that I would just come more honest like, hey guys, like, I don't, you know, sure, we should talk about strategies for evangelism. But also, I like, I'm like, I'm having a hard week. And like, I think we need to pray for one another. And there were times where I was now to be like, hey, we have to like push the goal forward. But like, how do we care about the people that are on the call? And I would mess up, you know, I'll be like, hey, we're going to talk about, you know, what it looks like to train teams, you know, when we can launch. And it was just like, that's now what we needed to talk about tonight. And so it was like, I'm grateful for the season. I know it was, you know, absolute tragic for so many people, but I was, I was really grateful that it slowed me down. It was, it was healing for me in a lot of ways. And then I was reorienting, you know, how to be a dad in that season to having a two-year-old while you're trying to plan to church over Zoom at home. And you're just like, you can't, I felt like a failure all the time. And so it's just a lot of, a lot of the math. It's a good place to be because it keeps you humble. Yeah, hopefully. God knows what he's doing. So even I should talk about that, like something I've been trying to self-discipline and keep it as a routine is just just understanding that I can't think too far, that I need to focus on today because something might change tomorrow and my plant. It goes all to, you know, so it's just like, yeah, I have a trajectory every single day at Facebook today. And then only when I look back, I'm like, oh, I didn't even calculate this, but like just being faithful, God kind of just stack them. Yeah, yeah, that makes total sense. So when you planted in your mind, did you have a specific DNA or culture you wanted to cultivate, like what makes reunion unique? Yeah, yeah. I mean, part of, part of our DNA as a church comes out of that season, you know, I mean, if you click, if you want to recall the season, it's like, it's not just COVID, but it's social justice issues, you know, George Floyd Black Lives Matter. It's like churches in crisis where pastors are lacking integrity and scandalous surrounding church leaders. And so all of those things sort of shaped who we are as a church now. And so like, I'm going to just go through these like, in our, in our like newcomers class or our membership class, like one of the questions we get asked is like, Russell, who are you accountable to? And one of the things I have to really think through is like, oh, people are asking if they're safe in our church. And so that's like an undertone, like as a pastor that I'm more and more sensitive to people are wondering, like, is this like some willy-nilly, like cold kind of thing? And helping people see like that we genuinely want to get to the heart of Jesus. And so like we launched church church, reaching through the book of Mark saying, who's the real and raw Jesus? And like, just try to go after that. And I'm sharing stories about how like we want to be a safe place. And then on the, the social justice issue side of things, it's like our church is about mercy and justice. And so like really trying to let that be a heartbeat of our church and not seeing it as, not seeing those things as separate from evangelism, but actually the tools for evangelism that that our community is really serious want about following Jesus. Yes. But two, genuinely seeking the good of our city. And so like those things seep into everything that that we do. So that that was also so pivotal in that season to really cultivate the heartbeat of our community. Where's your church located? Union Square. They're teaching. And what time's your service? Learning. So it's only been about two years. Yeah. Okay. So like what has been going really well and what has been not going well? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What has been going well? What has not been going well? I mean, you know, I am blown away. That's the type of people that come to my church. I am just blown away by how they're like, I'm going to say this, how rooted in the gospel people are in my community. And like I get to be a part of that, like their life and their journey and their story and how capable they are. You know, of course, you know, we're all wrestling with our own immaturity and learning and growing. But I just look around at our community and I'm like, they're part of our church. I would choose to be friends with them even if we weren't like in community together. And so I just am always blown away by the type of people that are around our church the way that they are genuinely trying to love their neighbor. And you know, how they're prayerful for like our church, how they take ownership of what we're doing as a community. What's not going well? I would say in any entrepreneurial endeavor, you don't, you don't get to control more, you know, so many things. And so at times I'm like, okay, am I heading in the right direction? And I can, you know, feel sort of insecure as a leader. Like am I doing the right thing? Am I leading in the right way? And I think over time, you know, doing this two and a half years, you know, I'm like, okay, like I know I'm starting to see some of the blind spots I have as a leader. Like I'm like, okay, our space is becoming a detriment, you know, like we need to find a more secure location for us to like worship and to like feel present in rather than feeling like we have to get kicked out, you know, at one o'clock, we rent from a dance studio. And so I know there's some tensions with that. But nothing, if I'm honest, nothing like I'm internalizing like I've done this horrible, you know, it's like, hey, I'm trying to steward what I'm, you know, doing well and trying to love the people. If anything, you know, it's just like about adapting to those challenges and pushing for. I guess what I was trying to like tease out was like, what are some of the mistakes you made that you would go to fix? Especially for like future church planners, they're like, you know, you got to learn from the landlines of previous church fliers. No, no, you all just have to do it yourself. You have to feel figure out yourself. One of the things that makes church pointing so difficult is either pastor, I am not an entrepreneur, I did not go and get my MBA, I'm not a banker, I don't know finance, I had to learn those things. And so I think some of the mistakes I made is not asking for help in the areas I needed help early on. Now, if I don't know how to do something or don't know how to read something, I'm like, can you teach me how to do this? Because I don't know. And early days, I would try to fake it. And that didn't help anyone, especially me. And I think the other thing that I learned outside of that early days was getting the right people on the team that wanted to be like fully into the mission, which is hard because in the beginning of a church client, you're like, everybody come, you know, be a part of this thing we're doing and everyone's like, what are we doing now? And so staffing becomes so important early days of church pointing. I'm so grateful for the people we had early days and then getting people that up now are internal people that work at our church, getting the right people that want to be on the team becomes really, really increasing the importance. So looking back, everything that you've been through, a lot of people get into things not realizing what it is. And, you know, they have great success, but then it like lunches them to other stuff or they say, it's like it varies so for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh man. For me, like, you know, I mean it genuinely, like, I respond to like what I've wants me to do. Like, I'm going to try and discern that the best. But for me, like, I would love to be at this church forever. Like, that would be like my dream job. And I love what we're doing. I like the challenges, you know, that are before us. I have fear for sure. I have fear and things that hold me back and, you know, times when I'm like, man, this is harder than I thought it was going to, everybody told me this was going to be hard, but this is still harder than I thought it was going to be. But man, this is, I'm having the most fun of my life. And like, my family is like all in like my kids are a part of what we do. I tend to imagine, you know, planting a church without them and them being a part of it. And so I'm not, I'm not interested in anything else. I, this is like the thing I want to do. So that brings me up to your wife. Like, she was cool marrying a pastor. You know what? I wish she was here because she loves to tell people about. I think we were visiting my, we're visiting the town where I want to college, my undergrad. And, you know, we're talking to my preaching professor, Dr. Russ York. And, and he said, you know, how do you feel about marrying a pastor one day? And she, she says, I wish she was here to say this because it sounds fake for me to say it. And she said something to the effect of I always like felt like there was something I was supposed like called to or supposed to do in that way. And so my wife, my wife is like, she's in it as much as I am into our church and investing into the lives of people and feels that calling and that burden, just as much as I do. And they're current, there are certain seasons where she has more than who she that I do, you know, towards towards it. But I mean, we feel really strongly that like, together is what we're supposed to do. And she's been in the city for 10 years now. I feel like she's fully contextualized like, you know, full New Yorker and she just loves it. So, and she's, a mom and has a job as a teacher. And so her life is very full in that sense. You sound like a lucky man. Thank you. I will tell her you said that. I am a very lucky man. And I, I take her for granted sometimes. So I thank you for the reminder today. No, it's all right. That's what you're married. That's the beauty of covenant. You can think for granted all you want. Just can't leave. There you go. There you go. What was the hardest decision you ever had to make in your life? The hardest decision I had ever had to make in my life. I feel like the hardest decision I'd ever had to make was probably when I was graduating from college. And I was really discerning like what to do, but like where to do it? I mean, I had like two decent low paying options in front of me. I was living, I was living in Manhattan, Kansas, and it was like my options were to go back home and select do your long residency at my home church in Phoenix or to move to Kansas City and you know, take a year-long job there. And really just like that's so funny that you asked this question because it really what I was what I was doing was I was I remember walking around this park and I remember praying. I remember praying like God, I'll I want to do whatever it is that you want me to do, but like I need you to speak to me like I really want to hear your voice because I want to respond and like I was like please speak audibly. I was like I want to hear your voice. And so I'd walk around this park, city park, I'd walk around city park and I would just pray and I after like a three hour like walk around the park in prayer, I heard nothing and I was like I'm coming tomorrow and I went the next day and I did the exact same thing three hours walking praying and then I at the end of the second day I was like kind of pissed off. I was like God, I genuinely want to hear your voice like I'm trying to discern what you want me to do. I don't I almost felt I'm dizzling at that point. I was just like whatever, I just you know I'll do whatever and then on the third day I think probably halfway through like that time I just struck me and God was like you choose like my will is very open for you in that way and they'll lead to different life and different ads but like both are great and so I was like you know what I know it's like to live in Phoenix and so I was like I'm gonna try this thing out in candy city. No that's perfect because that's exactly what I would tell anybody like you don't need to hear his voice you have his words and at the end of the it doesn't really matter what you do because God will make it all work for his good. Yeah yeah and to that point I think a huge part of that is not like is like the cultivation of our character right it's like God actually is really is really interested in who we're becoming you know rather than like making perfect decisions and that's that feels actually very free and it feels more to the nature and character of who God is. Yeah and also I think something important in your story is that you kept having an open heart you know an open and honest heart at the end of the day that's all he has. No that's great man that's great I hope it was helpful let me know you know what else is is helpful in putting it out and things like that. Okay thanks for coming on the podcast I guess see you. Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly an online community committed to empowering church leaders pastors staff and volunteers. The Faithly Digital Platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection foster collaboration and promote growth within the church and ministry space. Remember to subscribe, rate and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you. Stay tuned for more uplifting tales from the front lines of ministry on the Faithly podcast. Stay bold, stay faithful and never underestimate the power of your own story.