Discovering God's Heart Together - Phyllis Myung

I just think God's love, man, it's all around us. We just have to look for it and we can see it. And I think that's how I've been able to experience it. And I really think because of that, I understand so much better now. Oh yeah, I do have this relationship with God. It is not just a God who's way out there and I'm here, or a God who's authoritarian or scary or distant, but it's actually God who's like right there with us. And I think about that a lot, especially with the kids that I work with, and the kids who question a lot, like, is God real? And if I dig a little deeper, I'm like, oh, you know what, they haven't really experienced like the tangiableness of God, because they haven't really experienced a love of God through relationships and with people, and I hope, I don't know, I hope that we could change that. Hi, my name is Phyllis, and I'm a huge BTS fan, and also a pastor in the greater Boston area. And this is my VP story. Welcome to Faithly Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders, as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith's journeys through their ministry work and everyday life. Join us as we delve into their challenges, moments of encouragement, and answered prayers. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff, and volunteers. Learn more at Faithly.co. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired as we unveil the heart of faith through stories from the front lines of ministry on the Faithly Stories podcast. So I begin every podcast by asking, you know, could you share how your faith journey started? Yeah, so my faith journey started when I, I want to say when I was a baby, because my parents, before they immigrated to the United States independently, they both had become Christians in Korea and then when they came over after they got married, they started attending it. My faith journey started as a baby where I had my 100 day celebration of the church. And I didn't, I feel like I didn't own my own faith journey probably until I was in ninth grade when I was at a high school retreat and just really felt like God was, God had always been kind of nudging me, I think, and calling me and I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it just didn't click until I was maybe in ninth grade that I needed to kind of take my own action for it. And I couldn't just let it be my parents' faith, but I actually had to take ownership of it. And so I would say ninth grade is kind of when, you know, I really dove deep into the Bible and I had a spiritual mentor who came to my house every week and we just prayed and dug into the Bible, memorized scripture and kind of all this stuff and helped me to grow so much and kind of give me a really solid foundation. So I have a question because a lot of people have been sharing that like that retreat experience and youth group has been kind of like a beginning point or a launching point. And that's kind of also my story too, but like, I guess for me, I never really struggled like if God was real or not, I just like assume just because I grew up in a church like you. So like my mom started going to church when she found out she was pregnant with me. So I was just immersed in it. But for you, like was there any like doubt that God existed or it was just kind of assumed? If there was any doubt that God existed, I knew that God was always there. I think for me, what was that tipping point was, I was just having a really hard time in my grade and I think for me there was a sense that maybe if I clung on to God for myself and not through kind of my parents that I would experience something different, something more tangible of God, even though I knew God existed and God was always there. So there wasn't like a big question. It wasn't, no one had to convince me to believe but I think I just felt like if I make this step will something change and be different about my life in a more tangible and real way than it has been so far. So what were you struggling with in ninth grade? You know, I was struggling with depression and I think when I look back on it now, I'm like, oh yeah, I was really depressed and I think it's, you know, a lot of teenagers kind of go through their own kind of mental health, I think crisis at some point and I think it was, I had this real standard of having to be perfect and feeling like I had to be perfect and just realizing that I was not going to be perfect and that I make mistakes and that I couldn't, it was really hard living up to other people's expectations and you know, we had some other family things kind of going on too and so all of those kind of combined and I was just feeling really depressed and really unsure about whether life was worth living or I don't know, kind of just feeling really sad about the way that things were kind of, I think unraveling in my own high school world and in my family and things like that. And so I don't know if I was necessarily looking for God to like rescue me from that but I think I wanted some answers and I remember a lot of times just crying out to God and saying why and there's no answer obviously that was coming like no audible voice but I just felt God's presence in that and I think that's what kind of helped me to kind of really hold it together for my time in high school. Sorry, I'm in a booth. Yeah, no, I get that. You know, at our church we have lights that turn off automatically in our elementary room and so sometimes when the kids are being really still the lights will just shut off and it's hilarious because the kids are like, oh my gosh, what just happened and I was like, you guys are being so still. You didn't even remember myself. I only even got in. It was just hilarious and I was like, what was so interesting? It was Jesus, wasn't it? So anyway, they're just like, oh. So how did that start improving after ninth grade? Well, I had to. I give a lot of credit to my spiritual mentor Sydney and she came to my house every week and we lived far from our church. So growing up in the Pacific Northwest, there were like pockets of, I guess like Korean churches and a lot of them were actually north of Seattle and you know, we went to this Korean immigrant church that my parents were going to in Chicago and then that pastor had moved from Chicago to Seattle so we just started going there. But because of where my dad was working, we happened to live like so. Seattle, so it took us an hour to get to church. So Sydney would drive an hour every weekend. Yeah, down to my house and we would just spend hours like talking and reading the Bible. We went through this like huge like discipleship workbook and then she would often just hang around for dinner and just hang out with our family and then she would drive back up. And so she did this, I wanna say she did this for a couple years and it was like every Saturday. And I think that helped me to understand better about who God was, what it meant to, I think live a life that was surrounded by God and in God's presence. And to just give me some hope in a way that I think I didn't know I could have in God. Because they don't really teach you that when you're sitting at church or in some day's school. At least that in my immigrant church experience. They don't tell you that. And I think she kind of brought it at a more real level and I could really open up to her and talk to her about just kind of the difficulties that I might have been having in school, friendships and all the kind of typical things that a high schooler would be going through. And she was able to, I think really direct me and show me how God gives us hope. And I think I always had an idea of that. But I think it just became more real and concrete when Sydney, we'd have these conversations together and I don't know, we'd just read the Bible together. And I was like, oh wow, there's a lot of stuff in here. And then when she would just pray for me. And to me, seeing an adult who was actively pursuing God and living out their faith was really remarkable to me because it was so different from the way that my parents displayed their faith. And it was, yeah, it was just a really different experience. And I was like, oh, this could be for me too. And there must be something to the fact that all these people cling onto God and have hope in God. And I think for myself, I just experienced it numerous times where I was like, oh man, if it weren't for God, I just don't know how I could do life. And so, yeah, I feel like that's kind of what changed and what made it really real for me. How did you take that? And then actually, let me rewind in college. Did you continue to grow or did it come down? Because I shouldn't assume, but yeah. Yeah, no, it did. I went, you know, I had a lot of people praying for me when I went to college. And I don't know if it's because they thought I was really kind of naive. So they thought, wow, she needs a little prayer. But I joined a church that was not too far from our campus and was really invested. And they, I look back on it now. And I'm like, well, it might not be the kind of place that I would have chosen now. But at the time, it was really good. We had small groups. We had Bible teaching. And we had a pastor that was specific to our campus. And we had a community that we were building. And I think I learned a lot about God in certain ways while I was there in college. And I grew a lot and I just felt a greater sense of God's calling in my life. Even though I didn't see the possibility of it, but I felt a greater sense of that in college. And I think that's what really kept me going back to this church in particular and to growing there. And just trying to figure out like, what is my faith really about? What exactly do I really believe? And I think college was definitely a time that it challenged and brought up those questions. And it was really eye-opening when I looked back on it because I was like, oh, wow, that was always kind of there. So yeah, it was difficult when I looked back on it, but it was such a good and rich time as well. And I learned so much and I think I'm really thankful and grateful for that opportunity just to have grown so much in Christ because of my time in college. Would you go to undergrad? I went to Brindmark College out in Pennsylvania. Oh, nice, yeah. I served at Antioch in Kentucky. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So what was it about the church that like you feel like now you wouldn't go back or is that the type of church that? Yeah, you know, I think to think a lot about what was so great about a Korean immigrant church experience and an English ministry that's attached to that. And then also like on the flip side, what's not so great about it. And you know, there was a lot of, I think there was a lot of spiritual abuse also and manipulation and I don't know. It's just interesting the way that certain things were kind of taught. And I learned a lot about having to repent and what it meant to be center, but didn't really get much of God's love and grace on the other side. And so it was kind of a skewed look, I think at God. And at the time also when I was in college and this probably dates me, but evangelism was like really huge. We used like four spiritual laws. Like, you know, you hand out booklets and there was like a particular way you evangelize. And I looked back on that and I was like, wow, that would not work today. And that is definitely not something that I would say, oh, for our youth group kids or college students or whatever. You're like, hey, let's do this. But it was the time where it was okay to do that. And I still learned a lot and I was like, okay, like I was able to articulate my faith in this particular way and I used that and I was able to do that. But I also learned a lot about like what it meant to be like legalistic about your faith too and why that might not be so great and why that could be, you know, harmful as well. So yeah, I think there's like a balance and I think I got too much of one side and not enough kind of the other aspect. Do you mind giving some details about what you mean by spiritual abuse based on your experience just so that people like listening could understand, like, oh, wait, this is not okay. Yeah. So, you know, I had a lot of eyes on me during college. So whatever I did, people seemed to just know. And somebody was literally like reporting my activities and I was always surprised. Not because I was trying to hide anything but it was really interesting that kind of our pastors and some of the leaders would just come up to me and say, hey, I heard like XYZ was happening and I'm just like, how would you even know that? Like, are you in my dorm? Like, what's going on here? Are you following me? So I think it started out kind of like that and then it was really about, well, you can't see this friend because they're not Christian or they're not a part of our fellowship and you can't hang out with this person because of these other reasons and kind of limiting like who I can hang out with, what activities I could be involved in. And then if I ever did anything that kind of, they didn't like or they kind of frowned upon, it was, you know, your, this is like of Satan and so you need to be prayed for and they would, you know, like, they would pound on your back and pray for you. I don't know if it was like an exorcism but like they were trying to get Satan out of you because you clearly were doing what Satan was doing. But yeah, it was just really restrictive of who you can hang out with, what you could be doing and a lot of also, you know, you should take these classes because this is what you should be doing and there was a hard and fast like no dating rule and if you are dating, it was really, you're kind of kicked out of everything and also like what you were, you know, people would say that's not modest, you need to change like the type of shirt you're wearing or like, you know, what not. And so I felt like all of those kinds of things were manipulative and controlling and probably not really healthy. And but I think for me, the hardest part was when I was feeling depressed and I was, I really needed to like see a therapist and be on medication. The response from the church really was actually, there's some sort of sin that you're not repenting of that is causing this and you need to repent more and you need to pray, you know, more and it's Satan is causing this and you know, do you really wanna be with crazy people seeing a therapist like you actually should just, you know, talk with the pastor and just kind of those kinds of things and I think I could have benefited from therapy, I could have benefited from medication at that time if it hadn't been for the church and I look at that and I'm just like, man, that just is wrong and that's not right. Like you can have a belief but you can also have room, I think to let people get the professional help that they need in addition to praying for them, right? In addition to like, yeah, taking a little honest look at your life as well, like I don't see anything wrong with that part but when you're seeing, you can only do this, this is the only way you can be healed. I think it just gets kind of problematic. So it was just kind of things like that that I looked back on and I'm like, man, I wish I meet different choices and I wish I was able to kind of stand up to that but you know, part of it is as you're growing as a Christian, you want the favor of God and you just feel like, if I could just please these pastors who are like in direct line with God, then God will be happy with me too because they're always saying to me how God is just unhappy with who we are, right? Because it's like, you're such a sinner, like you should be so thankful that Jesus even died for you know, and then I think it gets kind of twisted in your head that you're just like, oh man, like if I can't even make these pastors happy, how am I going to ever make God this perfect happy and it just kind of gets twisted and I think jumbled and then you're really striving hard to please these authority figures as a college student and you kind of do whatever they tell you to do and you're just like, if I could just do this, like God will be happy with me, like I'll be living right with God and the will of God and I think sometimes that gets really confused. So what's the good that you got out of it that made you kind of solidify what you know and what you believe? Yeah, I mean, I think I, I think I learned a lot about God, like I gained a lot of knowledge about God and I think that more so than an average college student would have gained knowledge about God. Like I was reading, you know, for our membership classes, we had to read like systematic theology and it's like crazy. I was like, I was like, you know, 18, 19 years old and I have like this huge systematic theology book and reading all these other like theology books and I'm just like, whatever you guys give me, I'm reading and you know, reading like Bible study commentaries and all this stuff and I'm just like, I was just like packed with the gills with knowledge and that was, it was great, it was really helpful and I really read a lot of the Bible, like just so much and I'm really thankful for that because I think it helped me to get a solid foundation, especially when I think now as I work with children and youth and families now, who the Bible is just not in kind of their regular reading or knowledge base, right? Where it was 20, 30 years ago, even a non-Christian would know basic Bible stories but now it's not like that. And so I just really appreciate that, especially when it comes to like sermon writing and I'm like, oh yeah, like remember that and when I look back and reading the Bible and looking at kind of verses and things like that, like that has just been really helpful to me and I'm so thankful for that. So yeah, I feel like I gained a lot of knowledge and knowledge is not a bad thing and then I feel like, you know, post-college for me, a lot of it was experience and understanding the heart of God. And so, and I think you need all those things, right? Just because we're human beings and we have all those different sides and so we need all those things. And I think the same thing, but like what we need to know about God, it's not just head knowledge but it's also not a heart knowledge, Jesus. Was your pastor for Westminster? Actually, yeah, one of them was and a bunch of them went to the difficult also. So it was, yeah, and it was just like Uber Conservative and I would say I am not that conservative in terms of like theological leanings and thinking. So it's very interesting. I mean, that church didn't allow women to be pastors and neither did my church growing up. So like I just feel like every time, in my mirror existence is like a big defiance. So that's why I'm just like, I don't think I would go back there again because I think I just, I wouldn't be able to exist in what I do now simply because that was not and it's still not, I think, you know, acceptable. Yeah, I mean, I went to Westminster and so like I know the culture on the Philly area. Yeah. So are you currently on medication and going to therapy? I'm going to therapy but I have not been on medication for I wanna say like over 20 years, yeah. How did the medication help you? Primarily because a lot of people have a stigma like with drugs. Yeah, yeah, no medication is great. I learned a lot about when you have depression when you have anxiety kind of the things that happens with your brain chemicals. And when it's just like repeated, it's really hard for those brain chemicals to kind of get going again. And so the medication helps to do that. And it was so helpful for me just to kind of get to the place where I felt like I can talk about this and not completely shut down because that's the place where I was where if you're constantly in that state of depression and you're constantly kind of in that shutdown phase where you're just, I think it's like called the like polyvagal system and you're just always kind of in that shutdown place. It's really hard to do anything and it's really hard to kind of, I think even with therapy get the help that you need. But medication just helps you to kind of get out of that place a little bit so that you can do the work that needs to be done in order to help yourself. Like I don't think medication alone can do, it's not a miracle, like it's not like a miracle cure. Like you gotta, you have the medication but you also gotta do the therapy and it has to kind of work in conjunction together along with nutrition and all this other stuff that has come out now. Just the research on mental health and stuff is just increased. Like it just boggles my mind what they know now that they didn't know 20, 30 years ago. And I'm like, man, I could have benefited so much from all that knowledge. And so yeah, I always encourage folks like if sometimes you're in a place where you can't kind of get past that next level and sometimes that medication which just helps and it's not a bad thing and you're not necessarily gonna stay on it for the rest of your life. Like it just, you know, kind of depending on what your mental illness is and things like that. But like it's just, it's another helpful tool and I think it's better just to think of it that way as well. And I think there's a lot of stigma around it because people don't understand how medication works. That, oh, it's gonna make you lazy. At least that's a lot of like Korean Americans that I know. We'll say it's gonna make you lazy. It's just gonna make you sleepy and sleep all day. And I'm just like, yeah, but you know what? You're like your depression and anxiety. It like paralyzes, it makes you do the same things. Sometimes there's certain medications that work better than others. It's depending on who you are. And you know, it's a trial by error kind of thing and like you gotta try one thing and then kind of see that and under doctor's care and it can be really helpful. And so I'm just like, let's break this stigma. It's like if you have a headache and you take adveller Tylenol, right? Or if you have high blood pressure you take medication for that same thing, same idea. Yeah, I'm realizing more and more. Everyone's really different like biologically and more chemically. And we have to just figure out what works for us. Even in our diet, like there's so many diet fads that I like, cause I've actually like obsessed about kidding me. But like at the end of the day, you need to figure out like what works for your body and then move forward from there. Yeah, yeah. So for you, like what have you been learning in therapy and like for you, how is therapy different than like counseling? Yeah, you mean like postural counseling? Yeah, so you know, what I've been learning about therapy is that there is a lot of stuff even for my childhood that I have to mend from. And my, I love my parents and they did the best that they could with the tools that they had. And so I don't, I don't fault them, you know, and I don't like sit there and blame them like, oh man, they were terrible parents. Cause I thought actually really true, but they had limited tools like my dad, he was orphaned when he was five and he never grew up really with any parents. So there was no real model for him of what it meant to be a dad. And you know, my mom to some degree, it was just a different time where she was growing up and the way that parents related with kids was really different. And so you're asking these two people who grew up in this really different time in this different country to come and parent in this brand new country. And so of course they're going to get a whole bunch of things wrong. And I'm just like, well, that's what therapies for. And I have the same attitude with my kid. Like I may think I'm an awesome parent and I'm doing such a great job, but I can 100% guarantee that my kid is probably talking to their therapist about the ways that I've screwed up. And I'm like, I'm okay with that, you know, but we're getting a little bit better, you know, each generation, right? Because we're truly trying not to translate and continue to pass on the generational traumas and like the like maladjusted ways that we kind of parent and things like that. Because we were just human beings who are valuable. And so yeah, I think there's a lot of that. And a lot of like who I am today has a lot to do with the kind of messages and the things that I was reflected back when I was a kid. And that just kind of gets ingrained in you. You don't even think about it. And so for me right now, you know, I have sticky notes all over my computer and you know, all my journal and stuff that says, I am enough and I need that. Because that was something that I just didn't get enough of when I was a kid. And part of that is because I'm an oldest child. Part of that is because I grew up in a, you know, Korean immigrant household. And it's kind of like you have to, you have to keep doing and achieving, right? And you're trying to live out the dreams of not just your parents, but like all these other people who are in this like far away country you're counting on you to like become something big because that's big gave up so much just so that I could be here, right? And that's a lot of pressure. And you're just like, I just have to keep on achieving. And part of my personality is, well, if I don't achieve and if I don't over achieve, right? Like, what am I? What am I really doing? And that's just a part of why I am. And I'm trying to like really break that down because I think it's led to overworking, unbalanced like family work life, like all these other things that I need to work on. And for me to be, I think an effective pastor, I need to work on these things for myself so that it doesn't spill into my pasturing. And so those are the kinds of things I'm learning right now in therapy. And I love a good therapist because they're professionally trained to understand and handle those kinds of things and help you work through all of that. So especially kind of like, I think they're different like traumas and the ways of healing where Pestoral Counseling, I'll just, and you probably understand this because you went to seminary. If you get like one class at Pestoral Counseling and seminary, you're pretty lucky. And that's been my experience too. And I'm just like, you know what? That's not the same as going to a therapist who has to professionally train at school and then do a certain set amount of hours, thousands of hours of supervised training. And then there's me who's got my old testament, my new testament theology and my Bible, exegesis and my grief and then my one class at Pestoral Counseling and I go in there and I, you know, there's a crisis that's happening. And man, I know how to handle that crisis, but after that, like my job really in Pestoral Counseling is to say, okay, it looks like these are the things that you need. And these are the people that can kind of help carry you and to help you fill those needs. Because as a Pestoral Counseling is not about therapy and it's not about, you know, guiding that process in that way, in that therapeutic way. I think Pestoral Counseling really is the triage and helping people to get connected to the right resources so that they can have that and work that out. And I'm not a savior. Like not that any therapist is either but I think pastors often get into the trap that I have to save this person or I have to heal this person. And that's actually not our job. And, you know, God is the one who's the healer and God is the one who's doing that. But that person themselves, they need to want to have that healing as well. And I just, like when I, when I look at myself as a Pestoral Counselor, you know, my role is really just to kind of help to facilitate and then to make sure that they're going in that, they're getting the right resources and walking in that right direction that have to go to get that to that healing. But I'm not actually going to be doing any of that. And I think that's like the big difference between a therapist and a Pestoral Counselor. There isn't going to be that kind of therapeutic ongoing relationship. Yeah, I like how you said it's like triage and then you kind of like making sure they're not bleeding and then you hand them off. I think even for therapists, it's not just the tools they have, but they also just have a very different perspective and they can be a lot more objective too. So I feel like it's awful. Yeah. So for you, like, how did you start learning about like the love of God and God's heart and like more of like, I don't want to see spiritual, but there is this like relational ethereal presence. Yeah, you know, I think I learned about that through my friendships. And I have to say even I have this one friend in college and she's still, she's still my best friend now. And she displayed an unconditional love that I think friendwise, I don't know if I necessarily experienced that. And that was pretty cool. And it still continues to the day which is pretty impressive because now it's been over 25 years since we first met. And and I think it's through that and it's also through, I think the healing that has happened with my family, with like my, especially with my mom. And I also think it's when I heard about it from the pulpit at a church. And I remember the like when I moved to Boston, I remember sitting in this church and the pastor was preaching about God's love and I just started weeping. Because that was the first time that I felt like, oh my gosh, I felt like that message was for me. Like I just felt like God was saying, actually, you know what, fellas, I love you. And I'm telling you this right now. It's through this person, but I'm telling you right now. And I was, I remember just weeping and and from then on, like just experiencing different relationships and friendships with people that just reiterated and really emphasized God's love and God's grace. And I have some really amazing friends here in Boston and that have just displayed that continuously. And we've had our ups and downs, but it was, I don't know, it's just so unique. And I don't know if I can ever find that again, because I think it was really unique and it's just a few set of people. And I love walking life with them because they're constant reminders. Like when my dad died five years ago, three of them jumped on an airplane and flew all the way up to Seattle, literally for 24 hours to be there for me. And I was just floored by that because I never, I didn't think friendship could be like that. And that was just so moving to me. And so I just feel like it's all these little things now that I've been able to experience God's love. And I have to say it's also through my kid. I'm not saying that everyone needs to be a parent to experience that, but man, if there's a kid in your life that you can love and that they love you, there's something special about that. It does have to be your own kid. This is why everyone should go and volunteer for their children's ministry and youth ministry. Because man, that it just kind of opens your world in this way where man, this kid is just accepting you, just exactly the way that you are with your flaws and all. And then when they get older and they know that you're flawed, they still love you anyway. And that's pretty amazing because that's God and that's God's love. And I also think, you know, if you don't have kids, go find a pet. I am 1,000% convinced that dogs, especially, if you're a cat person or whatever, like that's fine, but dogs is a special thing. Every time I open the door when I come home, my dog was waiting there for me and I'm just like, wow, why are you so happy to see me? And I'm so glad and it's just unconditional. And you could, you know, and like we have a rescue dog and I don't know what happened in her life before, but you know, she has a lot of fears and things like that, but she still loves people so much. And it's kind of like no matter what harm has come their way and no matter what kind of abuses they still love human beings, even though they're the perpetrators, right? Of her, but they will still love them. And I just see that in my dog and I'm just like, so amazed that they could be that loving. So yeah, I just think God's love, man, it's all around us. We just have to look for it and we can see it. And I think that's how I've been able to experience it. And I really think because of that, I understand so much better now. Oh yeah, I do have this relationship with God. It is not just a God who's way out there and I'm here or a God who's authoritarian or scary or distant, but it's actually a God who's like right there with us. And I think about that a lot, especially with the kids that I work with and the kids who question a lot, like, is God real? And if I dig a little deeper, I'm like, oh, you know what? They haven't really experienced the tangiableness of God because they haven't really experienced the love of God through relationships and with people. And I hope, I don't know, I hope that we could change that. So what are you doing now and how does all those experiences kind of play out and you've been a pastor? Yeah, so I work as a pastor and I work a lot with children, youth and family right now in right outside of Boston and at a church. And I think those are my motivations of why I wanna work, especially with the children in the family. Because I realize, you know, I'm closer to 50 than the other end, you know, and I'm like, man, I have, I've been doing so much work to try to undo all of that. And it got me thinking if someone had come into my life when I was younger, elementary, high school, even like a 20 year old, right? And helped me and kind of like helped me to have a good foundation of who I am, understanding who I am, understanding, like, of God and how God loves me and how God has created me. I feel like I would be in a really different place. And I think about that a lot with our kids. And I'm just like, that's what I wanna do, is I really wanna help kids to be able to be in that place already so that their flourishing can start earlier and that their flourishing can progress in the way that it was meant to progress, I think, for their lives. Like we're supposed to leave things better. It's like my parents think goodness that they moved at the time that they moved, and they struggled a lot for my flourishing. And I am where I am because of that sacrifice. And I'm just like, well, if I can kind of help that they're not deconstructing their entire lives at the age of 40, but sooner than what world changing could happen if these kids are doing that, right? Because they're already changing our world, like Gen Z, Gen L, but they're already like, they're just different and they're so unique and they're so amazing. But it's like, we don't let them, because we're just like, well, they're just kids. What do they know? But then if you just, if we can empower them and we could give them the tools and just say yes, like reflect back, you are the image of God, you are loved and you are whole beings. Go and do exactly what God has taught you to do. Like you're gonna get amazing presidents, world leaders, innovation, we're gonna save there for real. And I think that has been really my drive in my motivation and I just feel like somebody asked me like, what would you be doing now if that was reflected back to you when you were younger? And I just said, I would have been president of the United States. And people laugh, but I'm like, no, I'm serious. I think God really created me to be someone who rocks the boat, but that has really gotten kind of pushed out of me. Because you're not supposed to do that as an Asian American, especially as an Asian American woman, shouldn't rock the boat. Keep your head down and like keep going. But I'm just like, you know what? I'm gonna, I was created to rock the boat, so that's what I'm gonna do. And if I could rock the boat for some of the kids that I work with and the kids that are in my life, then I just feel like I've done exactly what God has taught me to do and the invitation that God has given to me. And so, yeah. So I hope to keep on doing that. That's what I'm doing right now. And I hope that, yeah, I hope that we're gonna see a lot of kids kind of in their flourishing and just kind of see exciting things happen because of that. I totally agree with you. I think in an odd way, Gen Z and the new generation, because they value authenticity in it, like, honestly, a lot. And I think that a lot of that has to do with like our generation of trying to like, conforming and like, being so like, in the box that they're like, throw away the box. And more and more I'm realizing as long as you are, like, your authentic self and the way God made you, like, that's the call. I used to think a call is like, oh, I gotta do this and do this, but it's like, no, I gotta be this person because in that situation, whatever situation I'm in, I need to be that person, obviously in a Christ loving way. And that is what God's gonna do and accomplish, not like necessarily doing. So yeah, I totally agree. How have you been dealing with like, the stigma of being a female pastor and like, what are your theological convictions around that role with the opposition saying otherwise? Yeah, you know, I, so the denominations that I'm in right now, or Dean, well, pastor resolution in the 70s to ordain women. And it was not really argued upon because they were busy actually arguing about like divorce and like what the policy would be around that. And I stumbled into this denomination. And so for me, for a long time, I just thought, I felt a call for vocational ministry. I know it's weird to say that, but I really did. Like, when I was a little kid, I was like, my job, my future job is going to be to work for God. And I didn't really understand what that meant. Like other kids were like, I'm gonna be a doctor, I'm gonna be like a trash truck driver, whatever. And I was just like, I'm gonna go work for God. And I don't, I think I didn't really understand what that meant until I was obviously much older, but I never saw that around me. So I was like, well, that's out of the question. So I was like, well, maybe I'll go and be missionary because it seems like they allow women to go and be missionaries, right? You could do ministry in foreign lands. It's okay. And that's just what I thought. And it wasn't until I was in my, you know, mid to late 20s that I first saw a woman preaching. And I was like, wait, I could do this. Like, that could be me. I had no idea. And even then, I was like, well, I don't know if that's actually what God's calling me. Because I think that was like a childhood thing. It was like, it was kind of like nonsense. But I kept feeling that tug. And when it came time, something opened up, I just was like, I'm going to do this. And I put myself out there. And then I just kind of was like, people were affirming it left and right. And just kind of like, this makes a lot of sense. Like, even my own husband was like, this makes a lot of sense. This was your path. And so I did some digging in the Bible and our denomination also gave some resources about women in ministry and in leadership. And you know, in the very beginning of Genesis where it talks about how God creates tea and then the translation is helper. And I learned, and this is where I was like, oh, this knowledge is very handy. I learned that the word is not an accurate translation. And the word is azure, right? And it's a partner. And then in seminary, I just learned, I was like, oh, there's all these women who were helping Paul and doing, like doing ministry and I was like, what? Nobody ever talks about this. How come this isn't like prominent in the Bible, right? And there's all these other scriptures that lead people to say, oh, this is why women shouldn't be in ministry. And I've like poured through them, or the Greek translation, right, like all of that. And I've just really come to the conclusion that you can believe that if you want, but I really think God created us as equals as partners in ministry. And because of that, women should be pastors. Women should be leaders. Women should be leading in ministry. And in addition to that, I also think that if you're not in agreement with that, and you choose to be complementarian, your job is still to advocate for women because they are also part of the image of God. We often think that the image of God is this individual thing that we each have been created. But that's actually a misinterpretation of scripture also. It is we collectively have been made in the image of God. So the women have to be a part of that. We all have been created in that image. So you can't have 50% and say, oh, we're reflecting the image of God because that's not. That's only fifth, you only got half. You need women. So even if you're complementarian, I'm like, your job is still, your call is still to advocate for women and to help women discover their voice, have their voice, and to honor them in that way. I think a lot of times we think we have these attitudes about women that, especially in the church. And if you look at the history, like, and I was looking into the Evangelical Covenant Church history, which is by denomination, all the things that women were doing. And I wrote a paper on that. And I was just like, why do we never tell these stories? These are what the women were. They were funding missionaries. They were sewing things and selling it so that they could get money to fund missionary doctors to go overseas. They were raising money to renew the dorms for the seminary. And they were doing all these things. And I'm like, they're actually doing the work also. It's just the men are the ones that are preachy and are saying the words. But it's the women who are doing all that part. And I was like, there's a place. And so whether you believe, whether you're complimentary or egalitarian, whatever it is that you might believe, we still have an obligation to uphold and honor and to advocate for women, regardless of what our core, like, the alleged believing in believers. And it's hard, because there are a lot of churches even within our denomination, that they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we believe in women in ministry, but they don't reflect that in their action. And I'm like, well, yeah, we're not perfect for human beings and we kind of believe what we believe. But I just feel like, you know, we have room for that. But at the same time, what are you doing to kind of help? And then I think about all the, like, little girls who are looking and who they see up there. And I'm just like, you know what? If you keep thinking that, because God is not a man, right, or a woman, right, God doesn't have gender. But if you only say that, and you always reference God in the he, and you're only putting up pastors who are male, I just feel like that little girl who one day becomes a woman is going to be like, it's God even for me. I mean, I'm hoping that there will be other instances in her life where she will experience that. But you're not setting them up to see God in, like, in themselves. And I just feel like that is, that's important. And it's a part of us reflecting the image of God as God's people. And then we have to do that together. So, and if I answered your question. No, you did. I mean, there's a lot there to kind of unpack. Maybe I'll unpack a couple of things. One, I totally agree with you. Like when you created humanity, like Adam, male and female. So, secondly, the reason why we use the pronoun of the he is because of the relational aspect of the father's son, his spirit. No, it's also just for the audience. Like, I don't know who's listening to this. And then lastly, I'm coming around more and more. Like, I must launch complementary, but not in like the conventional sense. But more that like, I really do believe God placed a responsibility on men. And the reason why we have all our problems is just because men are not stepping up and being Christlike. But as to the female pastoral thing, like when I read scripture, like Paul, well, again, my interpretation is Paul's only problem was like women having authority over men. And so if you could, because I'm still like working that out, but if you could somehow work that out, yeah, I totally believe like we need to have sisters in ministry in the fullest capacities. Do you know what I mean? Um, maybe. I think they don't. I don't think women and pastors should ever try to be a male figurehead, because that's not true to who they're going to be in the way that they lead is going to be really different from the way that men, although I do have to say as, you know, as a woman who's in leadership, I think there is an expectation that for us to lead in that way. But then there's a lot of criticism that comes because if a male leads in one way, it looks like this. But if a female leads in that same way, then she's kind of looked down upon or she's kind of this like hard like, it just comes off like in a negative light in a way that it doesn't work or a man. I think a woman leaning is has, they have to leave the way that they were created to lead. Just like the same thing with men, like I don't, I don't think that men should ever like emulate somebody else, because then that's not really authentic to them. And that's going to end up causing them a lot of problems down the road because they were never being their true self. And if you're not your true self, it's really hard to be vulnerable, it's really hard to be authentic. It's really hard, right? You just start building all these secrets and then that's kind of when you get into trouble. I think, I think it's okay. I don't know. I don't know. I think like it's okay for women to like be lead pastors and stuff. I just think our, I think we, I think we think pastors are the ultimate authority, but actually it's our, our board of elders or our leadership team. Like that's actually who has, well, in the congregational churches, right? And I'm part of congregational denomination. And so my boss is not my lead pastor. My boss is actually the congregation. And in it is mixed men and women who are part of that leadership team and if that collective leadership that I look to as kind of my authority, yeah, I don't know. That's a, it's a hard one. It's really tricky because I just think we just men and women lead in different ways. And, but you can't just only have one and not the other. I think there's a reason why there's a partnership. It's like that's why it's important to have diversity of thinking, ethnicities and not as well. Like that is what makes that full image and you can't only just operate with just one, one part. No, I totally agree with you. I think it needs to start with partnership. When I say equality, I don't mean like equal in roles because even then men like in the teens, everyone can't be a quarterback. I don't think people understand, right? So there is distinctions in roles, but like we are equal in value and like, yeah, so it starts with partnership, but there has to be a framework where I believe like men need male role models and female need female role models, right? But also like men need to know how to like have like a feminine heart where we are like vulnerable and honest, but also women have to like have a masculine mind where you're like logical and you just can't feel everything. So and I see that in a family dynamic, you know, no one says like a single pattern home is like the best thing is like that's the worst thing, right? So yeah, and the church would be modeling the family structure and I think we've kind of lost that because well, my theory is like we've just kind of like started following like what how the world does it where there's only like one leader and you follow one leader, but like you see it in Old Testament times when you have one king, things fall apart. It's not supposed to be that way. Hey, what I've been lately, I think thinking a lot about is leadership structure and how it should actually be flat and not hierarchical and yeah, and that there is a great benefit in that. And so when you have a team of people who are leading together, it's always going to be better than just one person. And I think a lot about the current team that I'm a part of, the personal team that I'm a part of. And so there's three men and two women and even though we have given the title to one person to be the lead pastor, there really is a flatness to the structure where we come together to make decisions where we confer together and yet we still have our distinct individual voices and obviously roles that we play, right? And I have really enjoyed that and I have seen, I feel like our team and our church grow more because of that instead of kind of this, everyone looking to the one person to make decisions about things. And I have seen that model play out where people just kind of get stuck and if that person cannot keep moving forward, then the church just kind of stays at like a stalemate or they just kind of plateau and it's really hard to keep moving further. And I just think I've been really lucky to be a part of this staff where everyone kind of believes in that flat structure. And so we've been making a lot of strides in ways that I didn't even expect when I first came onto this staff in progressing forward in allowing our church, I think to grow and to be different and to be more experimental, I guess. Like there's more of a willingness to try things and if it fails, we're just kind of like, eh, it's not a big deal and then we just kind of try something different. And I think that's the innovation that needs to happen at church because the way that we've been doing church for all these years, right, hundreds of years, it's like it's not, that's not going to be church in the future. And so we need to, we need to pivot, we need to make a change. But if we continue with that model of leadership where there's just one person that everyone kind of looks, looks to, then I think that's where things kind of start falling apart. And I, I keep seeing that because like if one person has like a moral failure and then it's like, what do you do? How do you keep the machine going? Like oftentimes it like doing those right or the church, like we'll close down or something. And, and then you see, you know, that leader a couple years on the road, reinvent themselves and whatever. And then repeat the cycle all over again. And I was like, well, how do we stop that? I think we need to have flat leadership that has accountability to each other. And that has that same like respect and authority to each other rather than just having it in one, one person. I don't know. I feel like that would help us out so much more. And, you know, the president has like a ton of people who are in their cabinet, right? Not whether he listens to them or not. I don't know. But there's all these people's and there's, there's all these like checks and balances in place. And so that one person doesn't amass all this power and it becomes like a dictator, which I think happens a lot in churches, even though we don't call it that. But in other ways, that's just essentially what it becomes. You know what's interesting though, like the government structure we have, like people don't understand it's not a democracy, it's a republic like we elect leaders. Yeah. And the only power of the president has is to veto. Yeah. That's, that's just really only power. We can't do anything else without like the work of Congress and the Senate and so on. One last thing is like, just to encourage you, I'm in the camp of like, it's, I think it's because we're in like the 99.9 percentile of the end times and like the whole prophecy of Joel of like sons and daughters prophesying. And I think that's why women are stepping up because it's like we need them to. So I'm totally, you know, with you. And I love what you're doing with like, yeah, children and families because at the end of the day, I think we've forgotten church was supposed to be a collective of families, not just in this like machine. Yeah. Okay. I have one last question. Yeah. What is that painting behind you? Oh, this is by my friend, Shen, Shenmeng, and it is, it's basically like the Trinity, but it's called American Han, that's what it's titled. He is living, I want to say he's living in Scotland right now because his wife is doing a graduate program out there. He is, I call him like a modern icon painter, but he does like a lot of digital work. And so yeah, this is one of my favorite things that he's done, American Han. But I also feel like it's like God, Jesus, like Holy Spirit. It's also like the generations of, you know, that Korean term of Han, like being like passed down. And so yeah, it just spoke to me a lot, especially during COVID, it was a painting that was really meaningful for me. There was, it was a hard time. And I think I just leave it up there to remind me that we may have this Han that God's grace and love is also there too. And so that is what heals, you know, because Han is just like that stuffed in unrequited, like it's like you're bearing it all on your own, but actually not necessarily to bear that with him. You can share that with him. So yeah. It's good. It's a good way to end the podcast. Yeah. Well, thanks for coming on. Yeah. Thanks so much, Danny. I really appreciate it. Yeah. That's it for the podcast. Bye guys. Bye. Great and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you. Stay tuned for more uplifting tales from the frontlines of ministry on the faithly podcast. Stay bold, stay faithful, and never underestimate the power of your own story.