Faith for the Curious - Mark Matlock | Faithly Stories

So is it the chicken and the egg thing? Is it Christianity that makes us that way or are we drawn to Christianity because of that way? I'm like, I wish I knew, but there is something there and I think it's really important for us to know because what I find is that curiosity calls to the curious. So I'm curious, other people are curious back. We have to as a church learn to be more curious about other people, about their experiences, about how they're interpreting and viewing the world and then they will likewise do that. Welcome to Faithly Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders. Learn more at Faithly.co. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired on the Faithly Stories podcast. Hey Mark, it is so great to have you on the podcast. I've followed your work for a while from your time in student ministry to your work at Barna and I think a lot of our audience has as well. You've helped so many of us see ministry and discipleship in fresh ways and now with your new book Faith for the Curious, I think you're tapping into something really important. People are curious and so I'm really excited to talk about how the church can meet that curiosity. Yeah, Alicia, I'm really excited to be with you today too. I've been able to talk about this in so many different contexts and it's been really exciting to see how the insights from the book are really helping people have a new imagination, see their neighborhoods, their opportunities for sharing their faith in new ways. So I'm excited to talk to your listeners today about that. Awesome, awesome. Well, let's jump right in. So you've done many things over the years Mark. You've done youth ministry, research, writing, consulting. Can you tell us a little bit about how that journey unfolded for you? Yeah, I'm obviously a person who craves variety. So everything that I've done is involved travel, extensive travel. When I was first dating my wife, I was traveling to a ministry in the youth space. 288 days a year we counted. We don't even know how we fell in love because in those days we didn't have cell phones and things. We had to make appointments to actually talk. So we're like, how did that even happen? Looking back on it, I have a little plastic baggy of calling cards, little Ziploc bag that I carried around with me everywhere to try and call. Actually, Urbano was a really critical time for me and I'm now leading Urbano for intervarsity for this coming event in December 2025. And I was planning on being an anthropological consultant for Wycliffe Bible Translators. That's what I thought the path was for me and what I'd kind of surrendered to. And Urbana, God actually kind of like got in my face a little bit. It was like, have you planned your future or are you letting me plan your future? And, you know, I'm thinking, I want to be a missionary. Like, what could be more like where else could you? Why would God take me anywhere different than that? And He actually led me into working with teenagers. And it was so unexpected staying and moving to Texas, which was kind of for me as a California was like going to a mission field. And it was a whole new world for me, but it was a real interesting act of surrender to say, Lord, what do you want for my life? What do you want me to be involved in? And things started opening up all around me and I just started following it. And I kind of, you know, I started realizing that I had a lot of people coming to me saying, Hey, Mark, how did you get into ministry? And I'm thinking about that. How did you break in? How did you do that? And I go, you know, you literally just say, Lord, am I where you want me to be today? And if I'm not, I need to get there as soon as possible. And the next day kind of takes care of itself. So there can be some, sometimes the headlights just don't go out very far in terms of how much God reveals to us about where we're going. And I actually actually think that's a little bit of a mercy that he doesn't show us what he's got for us because we might not want to go there. It's literally embracing every day. And so for me, when people go, how did you figure out this path that you're on? It was like, when day I woke up, I was like, I think I want to do some research on teenagers and really understand, you know, with some quantitative numbers, what they're thinking and what they're experiencing. So I'm like, who can help me do that? Oh, Barna can help me do that. So I call Barna. David Kinneman answers the phone. Turns out to be my best friend, you know, after, you know, gosh, we've been almost together for 30 years working on research on the next generation and other projects. And so, you know, he'd just graduated from college at that time. It was working for, for George Barna. And now he runs the company. So, you know, owns it. And so very interesting just to see how time goes by. But it's literally just saying, Lord, what do you have for me today? And then letting tomorrow unfold. Like, I don't know what's going to happen after a banner in December. January 1 is coming around. We'll finish our banner and then it's like, okay, what's next? If I do another banner in three years has got to have something else for me. And my family might, we just don't stress about it because we know the Lord's going to open up that next thing. And I think that's put us into a place of just trust that's been really, really sweet to get to know the Lord in that way. Where we're really leaning on him and not on our own feet. Wow, that's really cool. Thank you so much for sharing that. And we've recorded almost a hundred episodes of this podcast now. Congratulations. That's amazing. Thank you. And it is no small thing and you were maybe the fifth person who has told us that you heard about your calling at our banner that, like, the Lord spoke to you really personally there. So I hope that's an encouragement for you as you head into the next one. It is, you know, Billy Graham used to say that 55% of North American missionaries received their call at our banner. And somebody who was a graduate project actually did a little research to see if that was even close to true. And it pretty much held up. Banner has been a pilgrimage experience for people to find the, it's not about being a missionary. I didn't end up being a missionary, but I did find my calling. And sometimes I think people think about her band as only being a mission's conference. That's really about when being a global Christian, becoming a global Christian and being aware of being connected to the church, but also just to understand what is my place in this. And I was rise coming out of her band, that got opened up a door out of the path that I was on, which was not what I was expecting at all. Wow, that's so good. When you think back to those early ministry days, how has your understanding of how people come to faith changed since that time? Yeah, it has been, it used to be that you could invite people to things where they would hear a message and that would be enough, right? And I think what's happened is the culture has really shifted and the faith of the Curious Lakes, the research we did really explores that, that people actually need many more steps of progress before they get there. So where maybe they could go from, you could click on a dial from one to level two really fast. Now there's like 1.5, 1.6, 1.7. So there's more clicks involved in people going from not being a follower of Jesus to being a follower of Jesus. I don't know that I don't know that it's ever been different because I can't objectively go back and do research in the past, but that's what it feels like to me. And the research seems to indicate that we're kind of in this simultaneous post and pre-Christian kind of, sure, where some parts of the country, it's more post-Christian and in some areas it's pre-Christian. It's more like it was when after Pentecost where the pagans were getting the gospel for the very first time, and you had this pagan religion that was being transformed by Christianity is kind of what we see happening today in a lot of places. And in other parts of the world, it's more like, hey, religion, we're beyond that or we've said goodbye to that, and now they're rediscovering faith in a different way, but through a lot of other baggage. So you have both of those things happening. So a really important part that we discovered in the research is we have to assume a spiritual backstory of some kind. And when we talk to people try to find out like, what is your backstory? What has your experience been? You and I met when I was sharing some research on New York and one of the surprising, these 55% of the unchurched population across the five boroughs told us that at one time in their life, they'd attended church in a regular basis. So there is some spiritual connection to, you know, if I sit down and talk to somebody in New York that doesn't go to church, I got a 50-50 chance, a little bit better than that actually, that they have some experience in their background with going to church. And that's a pretty amazing thing, but if I don't start from that curious place, I try to find that out. I may miss where God is already at work in their life. Taking a step back. I love that word curious, and I love the title for the book, Faith for the Curious. Can you talk about what that means to you? Like what made you want to write this book now? So what was happening was I was looking at all this research that we were doing at Barna for a lot of different organizations, and I was noticing that there was like this group of people that seemed to be about 80 to 90 million. Turns out it's a little bit more than that, quite a bit more than that. But, you know, a little over a third of Americans that seemed to be behaving in ways that probably most of us in the church don't think non-Christians are thinking or acting or behaving. And I was like, I want to understand what's going on here. And through doing some testing and some qualitative interviews. And to be honest, a lot of it was just I was visiting New York a lot for work. I was working with an organization there, and my my daughter lived there, and I was meeting so many people and going, there's something going on here that I wasn't necessarily seeing in the Bible belt as much, because that was having contact as much. And so the fuse my personal experience with what we were doing research wise, and I realized, yeah, there is something happening here. And what I, the hypothesis that I made was that people are more curious about spirituality than they have been in the past, and are more open to it. And we asked a few like simple questions, but I wanted to come up with some more complex measures for really measuring that. And so we started exploring that. And over the course of three cycles of research, we were able to really tease out some really interesting segmentation of the population that showed us that yeah, you know, 75% of Americans in fact tell us that they would like to grow spiritually. Now, it doesn't mean they want to grow as a Christian, but they want to grow spiritually that there's something inside of them that they recognize that is more than just molecules and matter that there is a meta nature inside of them. And they would like to grow in that dimension. And you think about that's phenomenal. 75% of Americans tell us that. Well, now that changes maybe the way that I approach my Christianity. I'm not coming to just to share something with you that you don't know or to tell you something, but I'm here to actually help you find what you're looking for. But I've changed my approach, my way of entering into that conversation with you so that you see it as a growth opportunity as opposed to, hey, I'm trying to convert you or I'm trying to change you. Does that make sense? Absolutely. You have talked about creating a church culture of curiosity. Yeah. Right. So what does that actually look like? How can churches make room for people's questions? Well, one of the really interesting things we use something called a need for closure scale, which basically measures how comfortable are we with ambiguity, uncertainty, mystery. And what we found is that on average, people in the church have a higher need for closure, meaning we like certainty and less mystery and unknown ambiguity than the general population in America. And quite a bit more than those that are spiritually curious. Those that are spiritually curious, they make up about 67% of the unchurched population. So just give you an idea of what kind of quantities we're talking about. And we were like almost 30 percentage points different in our comfort with the ambiguity. So if we're, you know, I was actually like coming out of American utopia, David Burns, Broadway performance, and it was so engaging and so interesting. And I was sitting and going, I think I understand it, but I probably don't understand half of what just happened. But I walked out and I just go, why don't I feel the way that I'm feeling right now when I leave church? Like there's something that's happening here that was engaging to people that would make them spend, you know, a lot of money to come and watch this. Some people I talk to, this is their third or four times seeing it. And I was like, so what's going on here? You know, and how, why is the church like this? And if you think about art, right? Like if I have a high need for closure, I'm going to create art. It's very concrete that when you look at it, you know exactly what it is as close to a photograph as we could possibly make it. So there's no misunderstanding whereas somebody who has a lower need for closure is going to be okay with abstract art and things. So the question is, do we as a church is that good or bad? And it's not, it's not, it's not really a moral question because having a high need for closure, there's nothing wrong with that. But it is something that we need to look at and go, are we maybe not being appealing or even interesting as a place to explore because we have maybe a cognitive preference for certainty. And so we, you know, and somebody asked me last week, they said like, so is it the chicken and the egg thing? Is it Christianity that makes us that way? Or are we drawn to Christianity? Because of that way, I'm like, I wish I knew. I don't, our research didn't explore that. But there is something there. And I think it's really important for us to know because what I find is that curiosity calls to the curious. So I'm curious. Other people are curious back. And so we have to do as a church learn to be more curious about other people, about their experiences, about how they're interpreting and viewing the world. And then they will likewise do that if that makes sense. I mean, I've gone off the question that you want a little bit there. So let me know if I need to circle back on something. No, it makes sense to me. I love that question about like, you know, chicken and the egg like, I want to go back to the research that you did. So you went into your research with a hypothesis, which you confirmed through the data. Was there anything surprising you found in the data that you weren't expecting? There are a lot of things. One was that need for closure, you know, kind of the reality of that. The other was, was just how open people are to spiritual things with intensity. So, you know, I've kind of been shaped a little bit by the seeker sensitive kind of approach to doing church where what we're really doing with the seeker sensitive model of churches are trying to make the church more palatable to the outside of the church and more accessible, more comfortable, but not necessarily Christianity. And what I found is that people that are spiritually curious are doing really weird things to explore spirituality. They're going on really intense retreats. They're attending, you know, meditation studios. They're chanting. I mean, all kinds of interesting things that they're doing to try and connect. They're taking drugs like ayahuasca, you know, things like that. Try and like transcend into other planes. And yet in Christianity, we're almost like trying to like, like dial it back a little bit. And that was one of the things I thought was interesting is if, if people that are seeking or looking for more intensity, not less, are we as Christians, have we dialed back the intensity of the actual spiritual union with God? And I think it's interesting that we're kind of seeing a spiritual formation, kind of revolution in the church right now where we're like saying, hey, it's not just enough about what I believe, but how am I being formed and counterformed into the image of Jesus? And, you know, counterformed away from the world and formed into Jesus. And I think that's a really important thing. And I think a lot of churches are really exploring this, you know, emotionally healthy spirituality by Pete's Cazero and emotionally healthy discipleship and all that that move has done to help us think through that. I think people are realizing, wow, I have the right belief, but somehow I'm not experiencing Jesus in my life. And I think we have fallen, we've probably been affected more by the seeker sensitive models than maybe in the external world is also suffered as a result, because they're going, there's not really anything there. And I actually experienced with my youth group, which is not my youth group, but I was a volunteer youth worker. I've never actually been a youth pastor, but I was a volunteer youth worker in our church. And we would kind of like have, you know, typical Wednesday night, you know, come have some food, hang out, have fun. People were really bringing their friends. But then one night, I said, hey, what do you guys want to study next? You know, what could we do? And somebody said, you know, I'd really like to learn how to pray. And I said, what if we did like a lab, a prayer lab, where we experiment with different ways, the different traditions of Christianity prayed throughout history. And they were like, that sounds interesting. They started bringing their friends. They're non-Christian friends. And we were like doing centering prayers and electio divina, all these different practices that are, you know, the desert fathers practice things that, you know, were a little unusual maybe for somebody who's not used that. And the friends kept coming back. And I realized, oh, maybe we're not really helping people connect with Jesus like we think we are. And then I wrote before faith of the curious with David Keniman, faith for exiles, that was one really interesting thing that we found with those that were staying in church beyond high school was that they were having a real encounter with Jesus and talked about him in relational terms, not belief institutional terms. And so that was a real big finding that we that we had in that was going, wow, you know, less than 10% of all 18 to 23 year olds who said at one time of my life, I identified as a Christian or I currently do only 9% actually met that, you know, criteria of having had a real experience with Jesus. So that told me, wow, our churches, we may think we're doing more than we are by reading, misreading the cues. And that really was convicting to me as somebody who puts on experiences for people to say, how am I really connecting people to Jesus? How are we really living and walking in the spirit? And that's been a challenge for me. Yeah, wow. Thank you so much for sharing that. I love the prayer lab idea. I mean, that is a real concrete example of like when we can tap into our own curiosity and like genuinely find ways to connect with Jesus, I think that's really attractive to people. We were trying, we were trying these things. Yeah. And then we would talk about what was what it was like afterwards, right? And it was so interesting to Alicia because like, I mean, sometimes we just start laughing in the middle of it because it was so unusual for maybe our tradition to do things a certain way. And then we'd say, okay, well, what's going on? Why are we laughing right now? Like what, you know, and it was just, it was a great way to like take the serious, it was serious, but it was also play because we called it a lab. And that I think kind of gave it some, yeah. Well, I just think it's a fantastic example of how curiosity can meet curiosity. I think it's super cool. Okay. So one of the other things that you talk about and that you explore is how we often talk past people instead of with them. What are some of the common communication barriers you've seen between Christians and the spiritually curious? Yeah. That was, you know, a really interesting thing was we asked people that were spiritually curious like, what kind of spiritual conversations do you like to have? What are the qualities of them? And, you know, there were things like, they liked to have open-ended conversations that didn't have like a conclusion to them. There was a story for scene and so much of our evangelism training is designed to land the plane, right? It's kind of like that Glen Gary Glen Ross. They always be closing, you know, that Alex Baldwin scene where he goes, the ABCs of selling always be closing. And we're kind of train that because a lot of our evangelism methods came from people that were sales people in the business world and then became evangelists and started teaching us how to do this. And the spiritually curious really like a little more like open-ended follow-rabbit trails. Not necessarily assuming that at the end of this, I'm going to make a decision. And what I found as a result, sometimes I definitely need to say, hey, you know, how is this affecting you? You know, would you would you be interested in knowing how to put your trust in Jesus and how to follow him? But most of the time when I keep it open-ended and I don't assume conclusions. And I'm as much interested in what their experiences have been because a lot of times they've been wounded by the church or a religious practice or entity, they often ask me like, hey, so how if I wanted to follow Jesus, what would that look like? What would I need to do? Now I'm not saying that that's your goal is to always get them to ask you. We do sometimes need to like invite them, right? But that's a part of it. And then one of the filters that I just always ask is, is what I'm saying good news for this person? Because if Jesus, you know, Jesus, John 10, 10 says the thief comes a steal to kill and destroy, but I've come that they might have life and have it to the full. So is what I'm offering more life? Is it full life? Because that's what Jesus came to offer. He didn't say it was going to be easier. Didn't say it was going to be prosperous. He just said more life because sometimes in the struggle in the pain, that's where we experience more life, right? If you talk to an athlete, they're it's hard, you know, they're getting injections and they're wrapping their ankles together and they're playing through pain to experience that fullness, right? So it's not about an easier way, but but it is a lighter way to experience more. And I always ask myself that because sometimes I think I come into these spiritual conversations and I'm like a dark cloud that's like actually not bringing good news. I'm bringing bad news. And so and there are some bad news about our sin and all of those things that need to be addressed. But but I also want to make sure that what I'm really offering is good news. And so it makes me stop and go, what's good news for this person? You know, what what is the good news that Jesus has to offer this person? And I'm that I'm the ambassador now for Jesus. So how am I bringing that good news to them? And it's just been a that's just been one of those things. It's helped me ship paradigms in how I'm sharing my faith with people. Wait, that is so interesting. I love what you just asked in your conversation. Like what is good news for this person? Like how can I bring the good news to this person? Can you give us a little bit more? How do you decipher that? Like what's an example of how you might tell them the gospel in a way that's really personal? That's good news to them. Yeah. So you know, some of the things I always tried to do once again finding that spiritual backstory really. So you know, trying to find out did you ever go to church or was there ever a time in your life when you felt like you were more spiritual than you are now? You know, tell me your journey on that. Usually people it's amazing how you know, it's a kind of considered a party foul right to talk about work or religion, you know, and social settings. And what I have found is that people are starving to talk about these things. And it's not like I need to like initiate them. Thankfully when I'm with people and I tell them I'm a minister or that I do work in the faith-based nonprofit sector, that's usually enough to open the door a little bit. You know, so looking for a way where I can just drop that, usually is enough to like just crack the door enough that if they want to walk through it, they'll ask some questions about that. And then I'll ask questions about their history. Another thing is like, you know, when people put, you know, ink on their body, right? Like when they're tatting up, there's usually a really good story around that. And usually it has some spiritual or life significance to it. So if people have tattoos, I'll often ask them, tell me your story. You know, tell me, tell me about that. And if they don't have a story, that's usually even a better story like, I don't know how I got that Tweety Bird on my arm. But usually it will lead to something, you know, that takes us in a spiritual direction. But we also have to be prepared for what comes out because there are people that are experimenting with communication with the dead, with tarot cards, with astrology, things that we might consider like occult practices, well, they are occult practices. But we as Christians sometimes feel really uncomfortable with those things rather than seeing those as like, oh, tell me it, like, what are you looking for when you do that? You know, like, what is your hoping to find? What if I could tell you about somebody who actually knows the future and cares about your future? You know, and I try to like, and sometimes what I'll do is I'll talk about stories that Jesus taught, parables, things like that. And I'll just say, you know, it's interesting. There's a story that Jesus used to tell. And I'll use it. And so I'm always looking to connect the Jesus story or situation to like their situation. And my friend, Eric Swanson, he does this really well. And he uses the parable of the lost sheep. And he'll often say, you know, there's this, there's the story that Jesus tells about a shepherd who has a sheep that goes astray. And he leaves all the sheep to go after the one. Have you ever felt that way? Like, maybe God was looking for you. And then people, it's amazing to me how many people when I set that up like that will say, you know, they're, I do feel like God is, you know, is pursuing me. And, you know, in fact, this conversation that we're having right now, you know, I felt that or whatever. And so just opening up those doors, not being judgmental, is really critical. It's, you know, when Paul went to Mars Hill and he saw the altar to an unknown God, he started by kind of admiring how religious they are. I see that you're a very religious people. You know, you even have an altar to an unknown God. And then he says, I'm going to tell you about this, this, this God that you're ignorant of. And he goes on to then, you know, present the gospel. And, and but he starts by admiring how religious they are and how much they're, they're looking to have all their bases covered. They, in just the case, there's a God that we missed. You know, we're going to, we're going to build an altar to him too. And so I think that's an interesting approach is to really look for what you can admire in people. Yeah. Well, this has been an amazing like many masterclass and speaking to the curious folks, like there's so much like practical advice here from Mark. Hey, look for people with tattoos. Be like, maybe don't like point a finger and admonish them if they start talking about things like the occult and things you're uncomfortable with. Seriously, though, like what you just walked us through is so helpful and is so practical. Now, one of the things I've been surprised by Mark is you would think that pastors and others sort of vocational ministry leaders are already adept at this, that this comes completely naturally to them and they know what to do. But I actually found there's not always the case. I've had many pastors tell me I actually have a lot of trouble, like when just like interacting with everyday people knowing how to begin conversations, for pastors specifically, is there advice that you would give them? Is it the same advice? Is it different advice? Yeah, it is a little different. And it actually, I actually was shaped by the associate pastor of my church when I was a young teenager. I think I was in middle school maybe. And I went to the hospital. My grandmother was there. And she said, hey, Dr. Engel, who was when I was a kid, he was associate pastor of church. And I admired this guy. He was the most interesting guy. He raised orchids. And so he had at his house, these green houses. And he was like, grew his own strain of orchids named one after his wife. Wouldn't that be cool to have a flower that had never been bred before? That was named after you. I mean, it's like really cool. So he always had test tubes and things like that. And he would make orchids for like Mother's Day and for different special occasions or to honor people. They would present them at church. So this is a beautiful thing. And so I just was always dialed into him. So I hadn't seen him in years. So I went over to his hospital room sat next to his bed. He goes, Mark, what are you going to do with your life? And I said, actually, I think I might go into ministry, right? Now I'm like, you know, maybe a freshman in high school. I think I was actually younger. But um, and he said, you know, you always, and I always connected on the orchids that I used to do in my, my hobby. He goes, I always required every church that I was a part of to give me Thursdays off so that I could work with my orchids because I was a part of the orchid society because that was a place where I had relations with people beyond the church walls. And it kept me, you know, aware of what was going on. And and this was something that I had that was like a connection with people that wasn't purely me being a minister. It was a shared thing with people outside the church. And he said, and he goes, if you ever find yourself in that situation as a minister, find your orchid society. So when I went to Biola University in California, it was the first time my life. I'd been like 24, seven kind of around Christians where, you know, we're praying at the dining room at the table and the mess hall, you know, all that kind of stuff. And with the splitting theological atoms late at night, you know, there was almost no resistance or pushback. And I remembered, I wonder if I'm getting soft. I wonder if I'm losing my ability to connect with people of the world, you know, and we had a little saying called the Biola bubble that you could get caught and it was kind of like being at summer camp, you know, while you're at school there with all these other Christians. So I became a member of, I had a hobby of being a magician and a illusionist. And I became a member of the magic castles junior society because I wasn't 21 yet. And I became a member of that that society and kind of grew up around people that were in the mystery art, so to speak. And that was, so we had that as our relationship and then I was able to be light in that context. That's kind of where I think I kind of cut my teeth on how to navigate some of the space a little bit better. And so I would just encourage pastors as you're trying to figure out and put being a pastor is the hardest thing. Being a invocational ministry, so many demands already stretching your hours then and hours that you're required to work that other people are their time off. But try to find that place where you can connect with people outside of your vocation where you have something in common with them because it's a passion, it will give you so much life, it'll be good for your family, it'll be good for your marriage, it'll be good for ultimately your overall witness if you can carve out that space. And I've heard a lot of people, I think when I see people that fall, it's because they they didn't have that grounding because for me, it keeps me connected to the light of Jesus in my life. When I'm out there engaging the world, I'm connected. And it helps me understand, you know, if I was invocational ministry, which I am, it helps me remember where the congregants are every day in their work life too and who they're interacting with and the kind of things that they're experiencing. So it helps me actually relate and think more realistically about who is attending and participating in my church as well. Well, that's incredible advice. Thank you so much for that Mark, really appreciate it. One more question about the book. So I think you didn't just write the book for seekers, you wrote it for believers too. Yeah, actually, I really wrote the book to help the church understand how many people that are seeking. Right. Actually, I kind of the the mental model that I had as I was imagining who was reading the book. It was somebody at a church who was launching Alpha for the first time. Because I watched a church that was launching it for the first time and it was really hard for them to sit with the people's questions and ambiguity and trust the process that they were on and the journey that they were on. And so I was like, somehow I need to help them understand that this is actually really good and it's what these people need. And sometimes in the church, we have to detox ourselves from some of what we've been taught or trained or conditionably. And that's another thing for occasional ministers too. I'm taking this a little different direction. But we sometimes are so in this message of people are against Christianity. They're not open. They're not interested. And it is true that while they're open spiritually, that doesn't mean they're open to Christianity. But I'm finding a lot less hostility than you would think if we are approaching it the right way. I think we trigger that in people more than we realize we do. And we sometimes don't share more openly or curiously because we bought into a frame that these people are already against us. And that's just what we're not seeing in the United States right now. You know, that's the posture. So anyway, back to your original question. Yeah, even once we're believers, how can we be curious? How can we continue to be curious about our faith? Well, first, I think we need to be asking questions about where am I growing in God? One of the, I've started to realize a little bit of the challenge that we have when we put our trust in Jesus is that in the presence of God, we are saints, right? We are, we have the righteousness, we've been clothed in the righteousness of Christ. But that journey of sanctification, at some point, we just kind of stop. And we don't go maybe as deep as we can. And we just rely on the fact that his grace is sufficient. And it is, but we have to remember, he came to give us more life. And so what I, what I really encourage people that are in the church to ask, is am I experiencing more life? Where am I really getting life? And sometimes I don't think that it's always at church or in the work of the gospel. And that should be a red flag for us that maybe we're not experiencing what Jesus intended. And so I use that as a little bit of a litmus test for my own self. But I'm curious about my own knowledge with God. What, what do, what am I experiencing here? How, how am I pushing myself in my experience of the gospel? You know, I remember when I went through emotionally healthy spirituality the first time. You know, I described it as like having a box of eight crans and thinking, wow, I have eight crans to work with. And then all of a sudden getting a box of 32 crans and realizing, oh, there's even a box of 64 crans out there. And yes, it's still the basic colors, but there's so many shades and variation and nuance there. And I think that's what I've realized is that we've all settled for a box of eight crans for exploring our Christian life. And God's I going, I have so many more crans to show you. You know, so many more colors to draw with in the palette. If you'll just really trust me and keep going after more, keep exploring more. And we find that more in his personality. And God's attributes. It's in his justice. It's in his love. It's in his mercy. It's in his compassion. It's in his creativity. And I would also say that's an important thing to look for when we're talking to unbelievers too. What parts of God's image are they chasing after in their life? Are they dissatisfied with the state of the world? And so they're frustrated by the lack of justice. Hey, God is too. That's a connection point, right? They're real creative and they're wanting to become more creative. How do we connect them to the creativity of God as as creator? They're experiencing intimacy, but they want more intimacy. God is a relational being intimate in his very essence. Come know this God. So I think those are the things that we can connect other people about. But if we're experiencing in our own life, I think it makes people attracted to us as well. You know, some of my kids friends, they, my children's friends, they came to us. My wife and I, and they asked us if we would do, if I would officiate their wedding ceremony. And if we, and I told them, well, I only do that if we do premarital counseling. And he says, I was hoping you'd say that. He goes, when I was staying over your house, I saw you do that with another couple in the backyard. And I was trying to figure out how we could get something like that. Because we've always, I've always liked your, you know, your marriage. And, you know, it's not perfect by any means. But that was something that they saw that they wanted in their, their, their experience. Not sure what happened to my camera here. Well, I appreciate the tour of your space. Yeah. I like your collection. Awesome. Awesome. I've got an eight year old son so we can compare Legos. But thank you for all that Mark. I think where you landed in your response was so spot on about like when we want more, when we're curious for more, when we're experiencing more of what the Lord has to offer. That is really attractive to people. And it goes hand in hand with everything we've been talking about as it relates to having conversations about faith and how to draw the curious in. So in the interest of time, Mark, maybe I could leave it with one final question for you, which is when you look at that, when you look at the church today, right now, all the challenges, all the change, what gives you hope? What do you see that encourages you about the next generation of faith? Well, first of all, I love the church. The church is a frustrating, messy place, right? It's a bunch of us imperfect people who don't have that figured out. Sometimes believing we have more figured out than we do, but we're coming together and we work together. And I've only been a part of two real church families my whole life. And I guess three during the pandemic, I had a third one there. And so I've lived decades in church with church families and it's hard. And I always feel bad being critical of the church, but I think we sometimes have to be, but I always hate to put the burden on pastors and those who've given their lives to this work because it's tough. And we love, we love the sheep that God's given us to shepherd as pastors and it's really hard, but I think there is an opportunity for us right now to really rewrite the moment. And with God's leading, coming out of the pandemic, and we're still coming out of the pandemic, but I think some of us have tried to return things to normal too quickly rather than go, wait a minute, this is an opportunity to reset. This is an opportunity to keep it or curb it. And I think we really need to go, what do we want to keep? What do we want to curb? And one of the things that I found during the pandemic was our church stayed closer, closed for a lot longer than maybe it needed to, but it did. And what ended up happening was I started connecting with a lot more non-believers on a regular basis. And I realized how much space church was taking, relationally, and that I wasn't, I didn't have time to interact and really get to know the lost and have relationships with those that were outside. And I enjoyed my church family and preferred them in many ways. And so the looking at that imbalance and the opportunity, I think it's just something that we need to really look at right now and say, Lord, what, for this moment in time, how do we build the body and the rhythms so that we can really grow, but also be effective in our neighborhoods and the places, our workplaces, the schools that we attend, how to, the schools that our children attend, how do we be fully present in all of these things in a way that maybe we haven't been in the past. And I think it's just an opportunity for us that I think is really interesting. There may be new economic models. We need to think about around that. I don't know, but I just think we're in a really neat opportunity. I want to miss it. Wow. That is a great note to leave it on a great question. I'm really thought-provoking conversation work. Thank you so much. I know I've been blessed by it and I know our audience will be as well. Oh, thanks. It's been fun to talk. I could do it all day. You help me process things that I haven't thinking about too, so thank you for the questions. Yeah, thank you, Mark. Well, I look forward to the next conversation. Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks, Alicia. Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff, and volunteers. The Faithly Digital Platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection, foster collaboration, and promote growth within the church and ministry space. 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