Finding Your True Center - Tim Yee

Back now is God's way of being funny, like he's like the ultimate jokester of like you think you're so rational and logical. I'm going to say throw you something that's always going to be part of your story that you just really can't explain. Like there's no logic to it, there's no reason why you get to experience it, someone else doesn't get to experience this. It just, it always fascinates me and then confounds me and God is confounding, you know. He's not going to give me easy answers. It just, it just is. And so there is for me being such a rational logical person. I have this thing that is such a powerful moment in my life that I just, I can't completely put it to logic, it just happened. And God decided that's what He wanted to do and I don't have a great reason why me, why then, why that way, why not someone else? It just is. And I live in that tension. Hey, my name is Tim Yeh. I was a pastor for 27 years. And now I work with a great group called True Center. And I do some executive coaching and consulting on the side through catalyst, coaching and consulting. And this is my faithfully story. Welcome to Faithfully Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life. Join us as we delve into their challenges, moments of encouragement and answered prayers. The Faithfully Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithfully, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. Learn more at Faithfully.co. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired as we unveil the heart of faith through stories from the front lines of ministry on the Faithfully Stories podcast. Do you tell me how your faith journey started? Yes. Yeah, I grew up in Santa Barbara, California, mom and dad, older brother, older sister. And kind of out of the blue, I remember my dad saying, hey, it's time for us to start going to church. And back in those days, we weren't going to church. I remember one time my dad asked me if I believed in God. I was probably in the second grade or third grade. I was like, yeah, sure. I think there's probably a God. And then in the fourth grade, we started going to church, went to this conservative Baptist church in Santa Barbara and enjoyed it because every Sunday I got cookies and I got orange juice and I got to memorize Bible characters and books of the Bible. And I got prizes. I got to get my first LA Dodgers game with the church. So very kind of social, you know, things like that. And then as you get older in this church, you may get a little more serious. And so I remember I went to junior high. So this was probably in my eighth grade year. I'd never gone on a church or treat before. They kept asking me to go and I finally said, yes, I didn't have a lot of friends at that church. I knew people, but it wasn't like best friends and stuff. I went to this church or treat. And it was in a beautiful place called Catalina Island. And there's a wonderful retreat center there. But it was miserable. It was like spring. Water was freezing. They're going to teach us how to water ski in the ocean and freezing water. It was just a terrible, terrible time I had. But I did pray with the youth pastor that week to receive Christ as my Lord and Savior. And as a typical good conservative Baptist church would do, they kind of scared me into heaven by telling me what hell was like. And so I remember talking to this pastor and he was like, so do you know Jesus as your Lord and Savior, if you die tonight, where would you be? Would you be eternity in hell or eternity in heaven? I'm like, I don't know where I'm going. So he asked someone to be sure about it. So I said some kind of prayer to receive Christ. I didn't feel very transformed. I know some people do, but I didn't. This is as an eighth grader. And so I spent actually the next two years going to church, being a good church kid, but never feeling like peace, you know, never feeling the love of God. Not that it's all about a feeling, but just I didn't have really a lot of like maybe positive emotions or experiences. From it, except I was seen as like a good church kid. I went to Bible studies, enjoyed that. But I remember talking to a church leader on a different church trip, maybe my sometime early in my high school year or something like that. And she was like explaining to me like the grace of God, like Tim, you don't have to worry about, you know, your salvation, you know, every night. And I was because I didn't have a peace. And I remember I just thinking like some things not clicking for me, you know, with this whole Jesus thing as I was going to church, I was going to Bible studies, but I didn't have this peace. And what had happened right before I started high school, and this is an important part of my journey, was that I was at kind of one of my first like parties, you know, as an eighth grade kid going into high school, invited by a friend, another eighth grade kid, and we're hanging out with the big kids, you know, and there was alcohol there, and it was my first time, and I wanted to look cool. And back then I had an older brother who was like a star athlete and an older sister who was like the star cheerleader. And so I was kind of known because there wasn't a lot of Chinese kids at our school, and my brothers well-known, my sisters well-known, and so oh, you're the little brother basically. So I was kind of led into those circles because of my older siblings. And remember at this party, the star running back of the football team who knew my brother was at this party, and he was drinking and like taking shots. I didn't even know what that was. And so he like one and me, like take a shot with him, and saw like I was trying to look cool, he sits off this little glass, there was something with salt and lime, there was something going on with that, and I drink this thing and gasoline in my throat pretending like not to cough, et cetera. But he was like, you know, partly drunk whenever B starts talking with me. And he's like, hey, I know you, you know, you're Darren's little brother, right? And I'm like, yeah, I am. And he was like, man, he starts going off just about how great my brother is. Your brother's so fast, your brother's the best, like our brother was a star athlete, you know, known in the school and the region. And then he turns in me and very almost innocently, like he wasn't being a jerk at all. He was like, hey, so what do you do? And at that time, I didn't do any sports, you know, my brother was a lot bigger than me. I was an ominous, you know, 85 pounds and four foot eight, you know, and my brother was much bigger and stronger than me. And here's the star running back looking at me saying, hey, what do you do? And I said, I don't do anything. And he kind of just like, I don't know, awkwardly left the conversation and went on to to keep partying. But I remember that stuck with me and I left that party just thinking like, I got to make a name for myself, like my brother, my sister, they are killing it in high school, like I better do something fast because high school starting and I don't do anything, you know, I get good grades. I have, you know, a few friends here or there, but I need to make a name for myself. I remember that deeply resonated within me. And so I entered into high school, kind of in the shadow of my brother and sister. And academically, they're all at that time, there's only 4.0 was the highest you can get. And so there were 4.0 students, star athletes, super popular. And I was just nobody, you know, with some nice friends, et cetera. And I wanted to make a name for myself. So I remember just thinking like, I got to do something to do that. So I spent time the first two years of high school trying to make a name in the sports world at our at our school. I was too small for football. I wasn't pretty enough to be a cheerleader. And so I opted for the wrestling team. And I didn't know it, but we had one of the best wrestling teams in the state. And I actually did well. And so I found my groove did really well. One awards, one different things. I wasn't the best in the region, but I was good enough to get notoriety, et cetera. But I remember this, Danny, was that I spent this first two years every time looking for something else to just fill me up. And so I thought like, once I like make the varsity team, then I'll finally be happy. And I'm still going to church. I'm still going to Bible study band is empty inside. And then like that thing would happen, that goal, I would accomplish it. Okay, once I win this tournament, then I'll know I've made it. And so whether you're 16 year olds or 36 or 86, where it seems like everyone's always searching for that like next thing. If I get that thing, then I'll finally be happy. And so I spent this first years of high school just chasing after the next thing, the good grades. I want, you know, a girl to like me. I want to win this championship whatever it would be. And every time I would achieve that thing, I would find myself very empty. And I actually spent two years freshman year, sophomore year, high school depressed. Now, I didn't know as clinically depressed. What I did know is I woke up every morning, not wanting to live for two years straight. And I just wanted to make a name for myself. And I went to church and I probably did some prayers and I read the Bible, but I just was so empty. So I spent two years of that. And I ended up at this Christian camp at age 16. I'd gone to it the last three years prior. And at age 16, I went to humelight Christian camps. I heard another great speaker that had great music with great games. I'm the good Christian kid. Of course, you remember, but no one knows I'm depressed. No one knows I'm actually suicidal. Like I'm just thinking about like, how can I end my life? Maybe I take some sleeping pills. I'll never shoot myself, you know, because I just, I don't have enough courage to do that. So maybe I could find some way just to kind of end it, you know, easily. And at this Christian camp, they speak of hope like they always do every year. I like the speakers and stuff. You know, I was moved by it, but when he did, when they did this every year, they said, once you go away by yourself for an hour and just pray. So I'm going to think, okay, you know, all other, all other 800 kids are going to go and pray. I guess I'll pray too. It wasn't, it wasn't rebellious. I wasn't expecting anything. And so I remember outside our boys cabin, there is this rock. Like all over this place, humelake has tons of rocks. I'm sitting on this rock. And I don't remember exactly what happened, Danny. I remember I did some kind of prayer because like I was instructed to do. And I encountered God. I don't know how to explain it. I don't know how I know I encountered God. But I experienced a joy like I'd never experienced before. I don't remember exactly what I said. I just remember feeling light. I remember it was almost like I'm talking to God with my thoughts without saying it. But it was just like I knew what he was saying to me. So it was something like this. You know, this is again a long time ago, but at age 16, I remember something like Tim, I love you. I made you. So you should love yourself. You should stop hating yourself. And I have a purpose for you. And I remember saying back to God something like like I believe you, like you, like you could take my whole life. Like I was just feeling so light. I was feeling so joyful at the time. I felt like a darkness left from me. Like I felt the heaviness leave me as well. And I was just so joyful because I made some kind of commitment. Like I'll just I'll live for you. Whatever you want from me. I'll do it. You know, I'll give up athletics. I'll give up chasing after girls. I'll give up good grades. Whatever you want. I'll do because I just want this. Whatever this is. I want it. And then I don't know. They bring some bell that hours up. And I didn't tell anyone what happened. I just went on with the retreat that the camp was had a good time. But people started noticing something was different about me. I was always a good kid. But months later, I remember like one of the leaders said like I just see like you're different. Like there's something in you that has changed. And it took me a while to tell people what happened maybe even a year before I told anyone what happened. But I just was different inside. And I started reading the Bible on my own. And God was speaking to me and I started telling other people that Jesus is real. And he loves you. He helped me get over this depression. He can help you whatever problem you're going through. I didn't know what I was doing. But I was just sharing the story and I ended up becoming kind of like a leader in my youth group and started telling other people about it. So I start off with that because I had this radical experience that I've never really had since. And I've tried to maybe recreate it. And I just don't know how to. But God's real. He changed the trajectory of my life. And I've just been serving him in various ways ever since. And I'll just say this one last caveat. As I'm always careful when I share that story, especially if some listeners are struggling with depression, anxiety, I'm not saying to don't go to your doctor. All I'm telling you is what I experienced. And I know not everyone experiences. I had my own family members who are struggling with depression and they didn't get healed like I did. But I'm telling you, I got healed from a deep depression. Something left me whether that was depression itself. My brain changed or something spiritual. Something dramatically happened. And I've never been the same since. So that is a very important part of my spiritual journey that I've lived into for into my adulthood and even to today. Yeah, the only thing I can share about my own journey of depression and suicidal ideation is that like what helped me? It's just the disciplines of like prayer. Like you said, you prayed this prayer not even believing. And then somehow I made you believe that I think God uses all things to position us so that we want to believe, but it takes time. But so like what I would tell the audience is like just place yourself even though it's hard around community of people that you trust that will pray for you. Because even if you don't feel it on the inside, you kind of have to wait. Because it's all about his timing. And I think that timing he uses to like, oh, I get why you maybe wait so long. Right. So yeah, I like like it's funny that you experienced that at 16 because I kind of like experienced all that like at 40. And so it's just as fascinating. Because there's always this like I shared with someone else like this vent diagram of like how we're all different. But when it comes to like faith in Christ, we all have these similar experiences. And that's how we know like the spread is like moving in us and speaking to us. Because at the end of the day, it really is an internal feeling. Like it's this inexplainable experience because we are like feeling creatures. We have creatures that have emotions and different from animals. And so like I no longer like hesitate to tap into the emotional stuff because I think for too long, we've been trying to like rationalize our faith. And it's been good because it gives us a logical foundation. But like, I think what the church is awakening to now is this like emotive expression, right? Which is why what you're doing with true centers, fascinating. And we'll get to that about like emotives and stuff and about the heart. So yeah, so like you went through that and you were figuring out what you want to do for the Lord. What helped you kind of construct? Oh, I should go into being a pastor. Yeah. I think part of it was just being given opportunities, you know, even at that age as a youth, there were opportunities to start serving and leading. And so that came under, I'll call it supervision, but just you know, friends, older friends, you know, volunteer staff, paid staff, who started noticing kind of a difference in me. And so little things like the number one of the leaders, adult leaders who knew me this whole time, who didn't know my story. Exactly. She just saw a change in me. She asked like, Hey, for tonight's youth group, would you be willing to pray at the end? I had never done that before. All the years had been at church. I never like prayed out loud like in a group. And so I'm like, that was like a big deal. That was like the first time like I spoke out in front of a group. And then it was other things, you know, they asked me, Hey, would you, you know, share something from the Bible next week and said, prepare something. And so I ended up like teaching the youth group. By my senior year, I was like leading the youth group and teaching, you know, and kind of preaching, you know, basically so I was preparing messages and stuff for my peers and things like that. So it was a lot of just that kind of in high school. And then when I went to college, I ended up going to UCLA and end up standing mathematics, got a bachelor's in mathematics, end up staying for a master's education. So very kind of logical, rational background. I have a natural proclivity, you know, for that. And I think the experience I had at age 16 in some ways as I look back now is God's way of being funny. Like he's like the ultimate jokester of like, you think you're so rational and logical. I'm going to say throw you something that's always going to be part of your story that you just really can't explain. Like there's no logic to it. There's no reason why you get to experience as someone else doesn't get to experience this. It just, it always fascinates me and then confounds me and God is confounding, you know, he's not going to give me easy answers. It's just, it just is. And so there is for me being such a rational logical person, I have this thing that is such a powerful moment in my life that I just, I can't completely put it to logic. It just happened. And God decided that's what he wanted to do. And I don't have a great reason why me, why then, why that way? Why not someone else? It just is. And I live in that tension, you know, you know, of that. So I kept getting more opportunities as I headed into the college at UCLA. I taught myself how to play guitar and I was like a worship leader for many, many years. Just self-taught as a volunteer. And I ended up being on paid staff at the church in Los Angeles called Bella Presbyterian Church, a pretty well known church back in the day at least there. And so I became a worship leader, self-taught, started a worship band, started writing songs. And this is back in the 90s. And so we were part of this new movement of new music in the church. And I became fairly well known for that time on the West Coast for worship leading, a songwriting, worship songs. And these songs being played in different camps, being picked up by different paratroch groups and playing at a place called Forest Home, which is where Billy Graham, prior to him launching his LA Crusades, who was at Forest Home that he had a God experience where he became convinced of the validity and of the Bible and his crisis of faith. So that's that same camp called College Briefing that I became a worship leader for about 10 years as leading worship for college briefing and leading thousands of college students in song and worship. And eventually you just got different roles of churches, teaching pastor, missions pastor, finally senior pastor. And I have all kinds of fun stories related to that. But so worship leading, college pastor, missions pastor, teaching pastor, senior pastor, done a little bit of executive pastor stuff as well. And then after 27 years, now working with true center and worked with a group called Barna Group, as well, related to that. And the executive coaching, coaching, and consulting on the side is something I get to do with Christians and non-Christians, depending on kind of where they're coming from. And all of its ministry, but I really enjoyed my 27 years in a look for different local churches that I did. And it's a wild ride to be a pastor of a church, especially in these days. What would you say for people who have hesitations about like allowing young people to preach and teach? Because there are some, and I've been part of that circle where you need formal training, you need supervision and like you need to follow all the steps to be ready. But then I know other camps that like they just throw you in the fire and be like, hey, like whatever the spirit moves, like we'll correct you afterwards, but like we trust the spirit working. Yeah. Well, I think context matters. And I think sometimes the spirit is nudging a certain movement to do things differently. Right. And so I think that particular church back in the day, it was a Baptist church. It was a little bit more throw you in the fire, but with some guardrails. And so I think that worked out well. And then I served four different Presbyterian churches, which has a lot of guardrails, the Presbyterians. And I think the spirit is nudging the Presbyterians to be open to some more experimentation. So I would encourage, particularly if you come for a more rigid guardrail environment to, you know, to definitely be in relationship, you know, with the youth and understand where they're coming from, understand where maybe they aren't ready in many ways and give them appropriate things to try, you know. And so I think preaching and teaching could be an appropriate thing to try, you know, within their own system of, again, guardrails, oversight, et cetera. But people are just going to be figuring things out as they go and stay in relationship and correct when needed and encourage as you can. And so I would encourage ministries to do something different than they normally would do in their context. And so they're going to be some who probably throw to the fire too much and do not do any training and do not do any support. And so I would challenge them to look at some training, look at some for use, use some great tools that are out there to help the youth prepare. Like preparing is an anti-holy spirit. You know, the Holy Spirit can be in your preparation, right? That's a very presbyterian approach, you know, right? It's not just on the moment. It's like, no, that 20-page manuscript I prepared, the Holy Spirit helped me prepare that manuscript. And then, but I appreciate my Pentecostal charismatic friends as well because I'll throw up my manuscript in the middle of my sermon too, like, okay, the Lord led me to this, but I don't need to read it. I'll just kind of go for it and see, and I'll utilize all that study and preparation in the preaching moment as well. So I combine the two very often, I would say. So it's an old term that the Presbymatic, they kind of joke around about the presbyterian charismatic and that's true. There's a handful of us who operate a little bit more like that. And I think everyone should stretch themselves to see the Spirit is nudging them to do things a little differently for their particular culture and system. You know what's funny? As soon as you're saying that, this might sound blasphemous, but there's this documentary on Netflix about Vince McMahon. He's like the WWE CEO, but the whole idea of wrestling is that it's scripted, right? But then in the moment, these wrestlers have to like vibe with the audience and like, sometimes change the script and like throw it out and like, so it's like, okay, you can prepare for what you think might happen. But in the moment, like, yeah, the Spirit and the people move differently and you just got to like, yeah. So I guess that comes with a lot of experience. It does. And you know, sometimes the Spirit just works in people even without a lot of experience. So, you know, I have tried to stop trying to micromanage the Lord in that way. But I do operate out of this kind of orderly environment. I make lots of plans. And then I also just kind of let let my awareness pay attention to what the Lord might be doing in the moment in it as well. So I don't overly prepare, but I like to know some, you know, where's some guardrails kind of where we're going. And then if the Lord is nudging to go beyond the guardrails, and I'll, I'll know at least at least I know I'm breaking some guardrail. Like, I just want to be aware what the norm would be. And then say, well, I think Lord wants us to do something a little different. And that's fine. It's really good. So how did you go from ending your tenure as pastor and then going into cruise center? Yeah. Well, I was finishing my doctoral dissertation. And what I wanted to do was something that would impact my current congregation at that time. It was in Carmo by the sea, where I still live in that region. And I was using an assessment tool. And I decided to do my dissertation based on the assessment tool and the unique thing about the assessment tools that is based on people stories. And so it's the only I've ever experienced and found that uses your own stories, which I love because as a pastor, I'm always listening to people stories, I always looking and counseling people related to stories. And so I said, this makes sense. This is what I do every day. And here I was now studying this tool, looking at its approach to listing your stories and looking for patterns in people's stories. And then leveraging that tool to make decisions about future stories. And so if you look at the best stories on the past, assume God is in those good stories, then you can look into the future, believing and praying into God being part of your future stories. And so wrote my paper based on that saying, hey, using the story based assessment tool and the Bible to help Christians discover their personal call. And I named it the dissertation finding your true center. And when I did that, simultaneously, there was a group called Barna, Barna Group, was falling in love with the assessment tool as well. And they're looking for discipleship applications for it. And so the assessment company put me in touch with Barna and I end up doing a six week curriculum with Barna, basically called based after my dissertation, like finding your true center. And it was using the story based assessment tool and then my curriculum letter to do that. And eventually, this is time went on. I'm still passionate in the church, but that got the attention. The new owners of the assessment tool were these wonderful Christian philanthropists who themselves took the assessment tool found it amazing. And they wanted to apply it more specifically to faith communities and churches. And so my friend, the one who introduced me to Barna, introduced me to the new owners as well of the assessment. And we just started working together. And eventually, as we work together, they said, Tim, we want to launch the assessment as the true center assessment. And we want to bring the churches and ministries and mission organizations around the world. And we're looking for someone to lead that. We know you're pastoring full time. We know you feel called to that. It's been 27 years, but would you be willing to pray about working with us now full time, not a part time thing. And so my wife had to go through the kind of agonizing prayer of like, Lord, are you in this? Right? And so after much prayer and discussion, we surprised our church with saying we're taking a new call to work with this Christian organization and bring true center to the world. And so that was, I finished up my time in January of 2023 at my church. I stayed in the areas, live in the same house that I did back then as well, and the still in friends with many people at the church. But now I serve multiple churches, multiple pastors around the world and in the United States, and in Canada, using true center. And having a great time just telling people about this great tool that people are just beginning to hear about more and more. So that was, that was it. It was the Barna curriculum that I wrote. The great interest in that and then the new owners who really wanted to take this to be a kingdom tool that would bless a lot of people. And so we're having a great response and we're just looking forward to getting the word out in the months ahead. So more and more people can experience it like you experienced it, Danny. Yeah, it's by far the best assessment tool I've ever experienced, because it gave such clarity to my internal motivations that like I think what you were sharing about your own journey. Like I think at the end of the day, this whole thing in life is just about us understanding ourselves. But in the natural universe, everything we know is always in relations to other things, right? So that's why we like our understanding of ourselves comes from relating to others, but also in Christ, right? So there's this like tricotomy. That's why I'm so fascinated about it because as soon as I got my results and the way I got it, like you said, I just shared three stories. I just naturally thought up and like there's no way to like gimmick it because you're just being honest about your story. And so like when I met you, I was like, I want to know what the algorithm is and like crazy. So setting that aside, what did you like what, what was your thesis going into your PhD and then what did you learn and the conclusions? Like in the short digest for very short form. I won't worry with 125 pages of my research, but it was making the case that the idea of intentional living has been something that's been around for a long time, intentional living communities, people gathering around a certain way of life. And I showed some examples from the secular world and I showed some examples from the Christian world and I just said intentional living is simply being purposeful and purposeful is usually around clarity. Like these are these are our core values that we want to live into. And I just said that here's a tool that's based off your stories that can help you live intentionally for the Lord. You're going to learn about patterns of joy. You're going to learn about innate giftedness and we're calling that your core motivations, your intrinsic motivations. And it's going to reveal these patterns that God has put in you from a very young age. We'll even say hard-wired it within you that you'll see as you get older, you'll see them more clearly, but they've been in there from a very young age. And so the theory was that by focusing a church community on the Bible with the curriculum that I wrote in using this story-based assessment tool, it's going to help Christians discover their giftedness, discover how they're hard-wired for good things, and to help them see themselves not only in a positive life but in a true life, in that way they can start thinking of the future, how they can serve and be in relationships in a very thriving life-giving way based on how they're naturally wired. And so it was fun to see that bear out, as I did, finished my dissertation, turned it in, and that turned into, after I turned into the dissertation, that's when the new owners called me up and said, hey, we'd love to work with you and take this tool to a broader audience and just your one church. Let's bring it to tens of thousands of churches in the US. Let's bring it to hundreds of thousands of churches throughout the world, Christian organizations, mission organizations, individual leaders. So it's been fun, as we're just getting the word out, even, that I'm working with pastors in Uganda, and some of them maybe make two dollars a day, and they're using true center, and working with some of the top leaders in North America. And they're experiencing what you're experiencing, Danny, saying, like, I've never experienced a tool like this. It's amazing. It's built off my stories. It's so accurate. And there's usually something surprising in there too. Like, I was surprised by this. It told me something I'd never gotten before from another assessment. And that surprise intrigues them of like, wow, this is an important insight for me to understand about myself and how God has made me. This is going to affect the rest of my life. And we see that as we talk with leaders who take the true center assessment. And so we're excited to get that out to everyone at faithfully, of course, at some point, but also we're really hoping the whole world gets to experience it and see the power of the tool, the power of their own stories, God's behind and God's writing a story in you and through you. It's amazing how the human mind is made to connect with stories. And that's, we're just unlocking the natural way that God has made us. Yeah, I think that's the most exciting thing for me is that this is just another tool, but it's been the best tool to get clarity and insight of my internals. And to put words and things like, again, I was feeling, but I didn't know like how to like, and I think that's the fuzziness that we walked through of like, I'm feeling this thing. And sometimes it feels right and sometimes it feels wrong. So I got to deconstruct all my situation and whatnot, but then when I just tell a story of all of my joys, because that's basically what the test asks. And then it's like, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, oh, okay, thank you. So, yeah, I'm excited about what can happen with true center. Yeah, I had an executive leader take true center. He was reluctant at first. He eventually took it. And then without me knowing he stood up in front of a group of pastors and he said, I just finished true center, took me 30 minutes. He says, many of you know that I've been on this journey the last two years to grow in self awareness and growth. He's all honest. It's really been 20 years. He's on telling you something, true center did in 30 minutes, what took me years to discover through all the other things I did. He's like, you guys got to take this and try it. And that was unsolicited and asked him to do that. And just what he experienced. And so he he's letting us know that there's something about the story based process. And of course, our 60 years of research, we bring that as well where we just have a powerful, simple, accurate, insightful, actionable tool that we now have made super affordable to that we just love to get it out to the world. And so it's fun to see a dissertation turn into a real thing that's helping people around the world. And so super excited about the word getting out about true center. We have several thousand young people who are going to be taking it at Urbana 2025. That's going to be about, you know, in 2025, thousands of young people and we have a lot of other partnerships that are starting the forum and we're excited about the faithfully community we know is growing and growing and getting to leaders and ministry workers through faithfully for them to experience the power of true center for themselves and for their ministries. And also, so we love hearing leaders like you say like, this was super helpful, accurate, actionable, fun, even, different, unique. We love hearing all of that. It's all true. So how did you get into the consulting side after? Well, I guess you're doing both, right? Yeah, you know what? I think as a passion of always done, like a tiny bit of coaching and consulting as well. And this has seemed to be a great fit now that I'm working, which your center has continued that on. And it's been fun for the little bit that I get to do because I work full time right now with true center. And so there's not a lot of time to be able to help some of the coaching clients. They come from all different walks of life, but a lot of them are executives, executive leaders looking for insights. And often as I meet with some of them, you know, they have their own assessments they want to use. And I'm pretty well versed in most of the other assessments. And so they'll bring in those other assessments. And that's great because that's what I do. I work with each client along what he or she wants. And sometimes they found like the any gram is super insightful. I've used any gram for a number of years. I understand how that tool works or though you strengths finders or Myers Briggs, right? You name it. I've used a lot of them. And so it's great working with them. And so but eventually I'll say, hey, by the way, I work for this company called True Center. I'd love you to take the assessment. And I think it's going to be a great compliment to these other assessments you're taking. And 100% of the time, they're like, wow, this was super helpful. Very accurate. It does have some overlap with some of the tools, but it kind of coalesces them all to a center of like, this is what I was made for. You're right. This is what brings that clarity. And so I love being able to do that for organizations and for individuals. And it's fun. I get to bring in True Center into some of that work, you know, as well. And again, I don't have time for a lot of clients like that, but it's fun to see the power of the tool working across all different kind of organizations and for individuals. But that's how I got into it, just helping church members, right? And so often for it was pastoring, I was coaching consulting for free. You know, church member calls me up, pastor Tim, can I get six sessions with you? Sure. You know, so we're meeting and it's about his business or it's about, you know, her trying to find her groove again, like in terms of, you know, feeling alive and just feels a little lost. And so most pastors are doing coaching and consulting, you know, we're pretty much for free for their car against all the time. And that was some of my favorite parts of pastoring beyond the Sunday sermon, which I really enjoyed as well. I really enjoyed, because I realized after taking True Center, because I love to make an impact and love to meet needs. That's in my top five. And so that's why I love so much of that one-on-one coaching and consulting and counseling church members for free, because it just tied into what makes my heart come alive. I love seeing impact, God impacting people's lives. I love using some of my influence and persuasion abilities, natural abilities to say, hey, have you considered looking at this? Have you thought about this? Asking them questions like any good coach would do. What's what are you sensing the Lord saying to you in this? You know, I heard you, I heard you really come alive. Your voice and flexion really perked up when you started talking about this one book of the Bible. Tell me more about that. Like I have a blast doing that kind of stuff, but as a pastor, and now I get to do that with True Center and with the coaching and consulting as well. So really ties into how God has wired me for sure whether I get paid or not paid to do. I do it for free often for a lot of different like mission organizations that need some help. I just was was with a young man from Uganda who found me through this great organization called Switchboard. I told Switchboard to join faithless another part of it. And so I volunteer for Switchboard and I volunteer for some other pastors network as well as like some free coaching consulting. And why do I do that? Why do you do the things you do sometimes for free? It's like, I just love doing it. So I would do it even if I wasn't paid. But of course you do it also, you know, when you need to make ends meet as well and build a business. But it just was kind of in me, Danny. And I love helping people grow, get closer to Lord and use their gifts to bless others. It's fun. Yeah, I appreciate your story because I feel like I resonate a lot because I'm still in a place of like, I'm still trying to figure out what the Lord wants me to do. But I had to first shed this identity I was carrying of like, if I don't do anything, I feel useless. But my identity is in Christ, right? So like I can't work. Like you said, chase something so that it fulfills some part of me. But like, I need to be solid in who I am first so that anything I do, it really is just like giving more than taking, you know? Yeah. And I think it is also it's like we're talking about the youth. It also is just experimenting with some things. And I think we, like you and I, let's say might hesitate to experiment because we are too worried about will we succeed or will we fail? And that's the, I'll call it the carnal self, right? The natural, the natural man, the flesh, like, but what if you fail? And you know, what if we, I think listen to the invitation of the spirit to just try some things and be willing to fail? Because that's how we going to, that's how you're going to learn, right? To make mistakes. And even we fail and realize it's not something we're maybe called to do or meant to do. Like what a good experience, experience. Now we, now we appreciate the people who do that flawlessly. You know, the thing I failed, that like I just have appreciation for them now, right? Whatever that is, you know, that area of life. So I appreciate other people more. But I do think, you know, God's an imaginative God. He's creative. And he's inviting us into whether you call yourself a creative or not. We're all human. Well, creative, but it's in different ways. And that's I love about true center uses your stories to reveal, well, what kind of creative are you? You know, what, you know, what kind of gifted person are you? And we have different categories that we've learned over 60 years, 60 years, 32 motivations. And then we have eight dimensions, which are almost like a, a broader overview of the 32 different motivations. And it really helps you see how you're naturally wired to bring some great things to the world. And so that's fun for me. Whether we use true center or not with, with people I'm coaching, consulting to show them like, here's your unique way that you show up. And this is, it has the most likelyness to keep giving you energy. And you're going to keep wanting to do this and keep doing this well. And so this has a good chance of something for you to be stepping into and experiment with. Well, for me, I'm a little different because I'm not really afraid of stuff. Like I'm used to failure. So that's not the hesitation. My problem is I have like a million ideas. And even if I grab onto one, I'm like Zuckerberg. Like I move fast and I break things. And then there's collateral damage. So I think the Lord in his wisdom, again, funny, is teaching me how to like be unsure of myself so that I'm constantly asking the Lord, is this you, is this you, right? And that's something new in my life of like, yeah, like when I know it's the Lord and I do something, like when I code something and in the future, I'm like, I just do it, right? Because like I have the experience of what not. But like, yeah, it's like, okay, for the rest of my life, what am I going to do? I don't know yet. So it's like, it's like, it's like traffic jam. It's like, you move up, you stop, you move up, you stop. So that's kind of like what's happening in my life. Yeah, you know, when I work with clients like you, I have a few like this very gifted, very smart lots of ideas. You can't help to write down the 20 different things you're working on. You start writing them down. And I've worked with clients to over a period of a few weeks. We start, we start sorting them, you know, as we start talking about and praying through them, you'll start seeing some float to the top, you know, and it's amazing what happens when you kind of put them in front of you. And I'll have the client, I'll say, okay, number 20 right there, why don't you do something this week that she starts pursuing that a little bit more. And what happens as the client starts working on these things, and natural sorting starts to happen, a closed door, right? A lack of energy, a lack of a resource, you know, because what happens, there's so many things that are on the potential page, I'm asking the client to, well, why don't she start pursuing them to see if there's still something there? And what happens is you start bringing that into your conscious mind a bit more, even in little focused ways, you'll start seeing some things fall off. Like, oh, there isn't energy there. Oh, the resources are gone. Oh, that door, like they didn't know the door is closed, but the door has been closed for months, because it's been sitting in their mind as a potential. And so as I've worked with a few different clients, we've seen like a clear number one, right? So the top, a clear number two, like a, we've gone from 20 things to three things. And that's been very life-giving for people I work with like you, very life-giving, not because the other 17 things don't matter, but it's okay to say, you know what, the Lord gave me that to enjoy for a season. And it's just not right now that I'm going to pursue it. You don't have to kill it. You don't have to throw rocks at it. You don't have to disparage it. It's just not the time. But there's these two things that it's the time for me to lean into a bit more and have a piece about that. You know, so that's what I'd say when I work with great leaders like you, Danny, who have all these wonderful things that could do is let's let's work on that to let some things float to the top. And let's see what of those two, three, four things out of the 20 that might be the next best faithful thing that the Lord is inviting you into. I see how valuable your coaching business is. You're really good at dissecting and reconstructing. I appreciate that. Thank you. Absolutely. You know what, in life takes different turns every day. And so as I work with leaders, you know, I have this agenda planned, right, based on what the client wants. And then it just takes a turn, you know, that a hurting friend. And what do I do? And so I say, well, let's let's let's let me ask you, you know, sort of ask some questions about the relationship. And I would say to you, Danny, any leader, it's really worth putting on a piece of paper your relationships. I'll give credit to what credits you got him, Dr. Bobby Clinton, Dr. Robert Clinton from the the fuller days in the 90s when the top leadership experts in the world. He took a very simple concept and I've passed us on to every single person or I'm happy to send you the PDF of this document. And all it is is take a piece of paper, you put it on its side in landscape mode, you put an X on it. And at the top, you write upward at the bottom, you write downward. And on the two sides, you write lateral. And then the upward section ends up making like a V like a triangle, right? And upward is who are the people that mentor me that pour into me? And he started listing names of real people, some who I've met, right? Some people who I actively talk with. And other people are real, but I've never met them, or other people maybe not only haven't met them, but they're ancient people. But these are the people right now, they're mentoring me. And then down below, who are the people I'm pouring into right now? And I can put my kids, I can put a few different people that maybe I oversee, right? Like these are people coaching clients where I'm pouring into them, different pastors that have asked me because of true center to work with them, right? I mean, they're peers, but I'm kind of pouring into them. And then on the sides are these two options of lateral or like peers that we pour into each other. You start putting down these different names. And then as I work with a client, I'll have them put down, we start with names. And that's a fun, that's a fun activity because Danny, what you might see is you got a bunch of people are pouring into you, all these podcasts you listen to, these authors, and you realize, oh man, I'm not directly pouring into many people right now. I have a lot of input and not a lot of output. And I'll just ask the question of, so tell me what you're thinking. And most people will realize that that's an imbalance. And I think the imbalance is, I don't think we were meant to take in that much influence and content without it having some kind of positive outflow, going into someone, something, even an organization. And it's not just perfectly finding balance, it's just people being aware of like, wow, I have a lot of noise up here. Like, this might not be healthy, you know, let me get that list of 20 inputs down to five. If you only get out five, what are the five like essential things pouring into you? Some people have way too many people they're pouring into way imbalanced. I mean, a list of a hundred and I'll just say, so tell me how, tell me how are you feeling about that? What's the Lord saying to you and that? And then sometimes it's the side ones they realize and usually do, Dr. Clinton puts it, internal and external, just to try to give some division between like, maybe someone internal like in your tech faith world, Danny, and then someone external's appear who's like, has nothing to do with faith in tech, right? But you kind of speak into each other's lives. So I'll just offer that and again, I'll send you the PDF if you want it. And happy to give anyone a, you know, a free coaching session on how to use it as well. That's not a problem. It's really helpful exercise even on your own. Just to look at who's pouring into you, who you're pouring into, who are you mutually pouring into each other? And some people have like no names, right? That's a different kind of problem, like a total lack of relationship. And so we start talking about, how can we start building some names to put into these sections? It could be life giving, right? You receiving and you giving right into it. In the end, Danny, I think in this next life, we'll have God and we'll have relationships, you know? And, you know, whatever this next heavenly earth looks like, relationships centered around God's perfect love is going to be part of it, you know? And so I think, and these stories, what I love about story-based tools like true center is like, it's so humanizing. It's such a part, I think, of the Amago Day. And that's my theory that these core motivations are actually part of God's making us in his image. And we just get to uncover the treasure chest, right? It's like, oh, we found a treasure. This is what God has put in us. These these motivations, these desires, these good desires, right? And keep asking God to keep teaching us. And these relationships are going to point at them too. So there you go. I need to invite you to like a longer podcast because I have so many theories that I want to show you. Let's have a whole series we can do one a month for all 2025 or so. Anyways, any time I'd love to come back, Danny, for this podcast, for a different one you're doing, however I could help you and the faithly team. I love what you guys are doing with faithly. I've been telling a ton of people about it, connecting with people and can't wait to get true center to every single faithly subscriber. I would love for them to take it. You answered my last two questions. Could you usually ask what are you hoping for? I'll ask you the last question. How can we be praying for you? Yeah, you know, you you could be praying for true center as we're in many ways since I started working with them. We've been refining, you know, we've been doing tests. We have 60 years of data research. We just had a recent 2024 kind of white paper, scientific paper to update our science. And so we take all of that very seriously. And so the rolling out on the marketing side is really been very word of mouth. And so as that's starting to build and build this pray for us that it's just it's just the the right kinds of things pick up some momentum. We just want to serve local pastors. We want to serve local churches. And we'd love to serve whole movements that serve pastors and churches as well like faithly. And so we have opportunities with faithly with other great organizations. But it's also like I love talking to the solo pastor, right? As well. So just be praying for me as obviously I have only so much time to do certain things. And I love helping individual leaders and pastors love helping individual executives. But just the Lord to make it clear like what the next stage is for me and true center. How to put my time to help really just do what the Lord wants me to do the best, which we think is trying to get true center out to the world. Yeah, we'll put all the links and resources in the description. Oh, that's good. Can you repeat that? Because I accidentally put stuff. No, I do. Yes. So my friend Stan Jans from the Cummins C Foundation, which raises the 50 million a year or so for the chosen TV series. He says what the chosen TV does is invite a holy imagination. And I love I love that term. And I think God invites all of us into this holy imagination. Around his word is written word scriptures. I mean, I'm still a Presbyterian pastor. I mean, it's God's God's holy word. But the Holy Spirit is wild. The Holy Spirit is kind. The Holy Spirit is surprising. The Holy Spirit also is consistent. And I think going back to age 16 and I didn't expect it was surprise of the Holy Spirit to open almost like this this like portal into this other realm, which is Jesus and his love and in the Father's the Father's heart. And that holy imagination to be open to the idea that God has planted some great things in each human being. And he wants each human being to realize it's God who gave it to them and once acknowledged Jesus at the center. And then just to set us loose to bring little glimpses of God's goodness on planet earth until he comes back. Little appetizers of the great feast that is to come. And that could be poverty alleviation. That could be water for those who don't have access to clean water. That could be those fighting against child human trafficking. That could be those in the tech industry, right? Little glimpses of God's goodness until Jesus comes back. That's our job. Holy imagination. How could we leverage technology for good? Because technology is often used for bad. How can we leverage it for good? I think faith is leaning into it, true center is shining lean into it. But it's all comes down to human beings and it's the human experience. And I want to help humans made in God image to understand their giftedness. So that's what I'm excited and use a holy imagination every time I talk and listen to someone like, Lord, what do you want? These next 60 minutes with this person, it's up to you and see where the conversation goes. It's tons of fun. That was great. Thank you. Thank you for the podcast. Bye guys. Awesome. Thanks. Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff, and volunteers. The Faithly Digital Platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection, foster collaboration, and promote growth within the church and ministry space. Remember to subscribe, rate and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you. Stay tuned for more uplifting tales from the front lines of ministry on the Faithly podcast. Stay bold, stay faithful, and never underestimate the power of your own story.