Future of Christian Ed (Part 2) - Rupert A. Hayles, Jr. and Maryann L. Hayles

I really just have come to recognize over many years of whether it's being a minister you're being in court in paragraph. We all are working towards becoming like Jesus. It doesn't make me or you or anyone better. It helps us to live life according to the pattern and the way that God ultimately wanted us to live. People in your life, you know there should be in your life. If people are drawing you closer to Christ or further from Christ. Welcome to Faithly Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life brought to you by Faithly. An online community committed to empowering church leaders learn more at Faithly.co. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired on the Faithly Stories podcast. Dr. Hales, Mrs. Hales. Welcome to the Faithly Stories podcast on your host Alicia Lee. And I'm joined by guest host of Vandaline Kennedy. Hello. Hello. Hello. Well, Dr. Hales, we recently had you on the podcast where we dove deep on your journey, your ministry, how you found yourself in Christian education, leading Roberts Westland University. We talked about Roberts Westland's next chapter and something you said in that conversation really stuck with me. You talked about your better half and you talked about marrying up. Yes. And so I just knew we had to do a follow-up conversation with that mother half. So thank you for joining us today, Mrs. Hales. Let me hear. Yes. So let me start it off with this question. How did you two meet? Well, let's hope, at the end of this, we have the same story. I was at Christchurch. I was at that time experiencing some challenges. The person I was experiencing is a challenge with a mother of that person says, there's a church opening up. Can you not clear what I'm being called there? And I went there, I just go in, come out, come out, you know, on anybody know who you are. And I saw this young lady across the way. And I remember going up to her, it was enough courage. But that didn't work. She ignored me. She ignored me for probably about a year or so. But I kept on, you know, pursuing, but something changed. Pastor of the church knew that I had some administrative gift. And so they have annual conference every year. And yes, me to head up the conference. And so as I was heading up the conference, Mary Ann at that time was interested in the conference and wanted to be one of the long tours. And so I thought this was a great opportunity to get close to someone. So I would remember these meetings, but I had a special share right here, as far as the team, far the core team. And so after that, we started having four conversations, wanted light to another and we're here today. What was it about Mrs. Hales, Mary Ann at the time that got her attention? The number one thing was like, Billy did a care. I could really see from her that she cared. And you know, at that point in time, I'm getting the detail of this, but something had happened. And I remember she came up to me. Somehow she found out about it. And I was like, oh my goodness, I heard that this happened. I'm so sorry. I'd be trying to call on you. And it's just like, you know, she didn't have to do that. I just can't let know each other, but that alone kind of got me like, oh, first and not only smart, intelligent, all my stuff, NYU, all the good stuff, but also a caring woman, not only that, a solid follower of Christ. You might give you a talk at Mary Ann, not much gets said by Mary Ann without it, not pivoting back to Christ. And so I said, it's that conversation of that. I can say this, you know, I'm a conversation at that. Knowing her and being with her, someone said this, people in your life, you know, there should be in your life. If people are drawing you closer to Christ or for the front Christ, so with her, he's going to be closer to Christ. And so that's kind of the things that go up. And I was beginning. Not Mrs. Hales, during that one year period where he was climbing after you. Did you, was it intentional or were you focused on other things? Well, it unbeknownst to Rupert there, well, first of all, I should say unbeknownst to him. I knew that he was pursuing a degree at the time where you're not honey. And I can just like sort of discern that he was very engrossed in this degree. So what I chose to do was I wanted to be a, you know, his friend. Well, could I say that I was interested in him as a potential future me or someone to court no day? I wasn't thinking about that at the time. What I was looking at is, did we have anything in common? I saw him serving and he served and loved the Lord, but I needed to know a little bit more. So I would just randomly ask him questions about where he was in his life journey. Like there's one thing that you're God journey, then there is your God life journey. And I started to notice that he was really very much consumed if you will engrossed in this degree. And I just felt, hey, get to know him, help him out. And he did go through there was a little bit of a crisis that had arisen, a personal thing had arisen in his journey. And I remember having fallen asleep this one day. And the conference that he he alluded to earlier, I wanted to be a part of that conference. But I was in, I had fallen asleep on my C phone green couch and I'll never forget it. And I was shaken in my my sleep. Like call him like I have this impression that I needed to speak with him because something happened. And he didn't go into all the details, but that's I reached out to him. I'll go. Okay, so we've I think so, so that year was basically me just sitting back waiting to see how things would unfold getting to know him in a ministerial setting, but also as a friends. And then interacting with him at the conference was very important for me to see his integrity. I wanted to really see, because I was a lot older at the time too. And I it wasn't about me wanting to date, necessarily, you see, you see, Alicia, it was more about me wanting to meet someone who I knew could potentially be my mate, me for life. You know, I wasn't really into the quote unquote dating scene. So I waited, I took the back seat, and I waited, interacted, got to know him spiritually, and in through the conference. And then yeah, so that's how it evolved and how well have you become married and half? We are going to be celebrating our 25th. Why would you lie to me? Is that so, sir? Yes, it's a big deal. It's been 20 years, wait a second. I think it's, is it 24? When in 20, 2021? 2001, 2021, 2025. So it's 24, right? 24? I'm getting ready. It's okay. Terry was 50 years old. Oh, Terry Taylor. What? 50 and we're 25. That's what he said. I don't. We got the math wrongs. All right. So we got the math wrong. It seems like I'm jumping ahead, because the front row just like that. 50 and that is one half of that. You were aspiring for that 20th, that century month. I'm going to get into a big trouble. That's the best thing is all about that. That's what you're not going to get. 24. Grace, Grace, 25. Yeah. I love that. So, Dr. Hill, I've heard men say, men of faith, say that the two most important decisions are the decision for Christ and then who they're marrying. And so you said you like this woman who was intelligent in all of that. I want to know from you, Mrs. Mary Ann, what's your story? I'm close to the person that he met. Yeah. Hey, thank you so much, Vanslyn and Alicia for asking you these awesome questions. Yeah, sure. Let me elaborate. So essentially I grew up in Brooklyn, New York back in the 60s. And I was raised with my two siblings. My two brothers, one younger, one older. And we were, our home was, it was a wonderful Italian home. Albein, there was, as we often hear, this cliche used in society today, you know, prevalence of dysfunctional, I was raised in a dysfunctional family. I'd like to classify, qualify if you will, disc dysfunction without remove with with with with adding the dignity of of the individuals in the story of dysfunction, if you will. So one of my parents, one of my primary caregivers suffered and battled incredibly with the really debilitating mental illness. And unfortunately, wherever there's an environment where mental illness and all of that, those spirits are involved. It's going to have ramifications, going to have consequences on family numbers. And unfortunately with myself, it had immense consequences, if you will. And one of the things that it was impossible because of my age when I came to understand, like little by little, as I progressively began to live in this environment where it was fear-based, everything was fear. So because mental illness, it restricts, it binds, it represses. And it just really like took a hold of me. And as a young child, not a not able to process all these things because my executive function was there. The way I handled it was to survival. And because there was so much trauma involved in it, I at times needed to, I found ways to survive in that environment. I was very sheltered. I was essentially not able to go out and play like the normal child. I wasn't involved in any sports. I went to a fantastic Catholic school about a great education, but it took a toll on me. And so I was also involved in some really debilitating self-harming behaviors, which on years later, I came to understand more prevalent and very, very, very involved in today's generation. So I had that experience back in the early 70s, if you will. But I'm seeing it now in society, and it's very prevalent when we're sitting with our youths. And so I continued in Catholic school to middle school, went into high school, always maintaining my Catholic origins, like Catholic ordinances, my Italian, American family. And I went to college. I got accepted into NYU. I really loved the village and the environment there. And I came to know Jesus Christ at the age of 19 in the box library at NYU. And I was on fire for Jesus. I wanted to know who this king of peace was. That was going to give me the peace that I needed. And so I immediately found a church in Staten Island. I was losing it. Like I said, in Brooklyn at the time, went to church at Staten Island, got involved quickly in a discipleship program because I knew the importance of the significant subject. And I was individuating at the time. I was finding out two things, not only who I was, related to my family of origin and the consequences of the environment. But also I came to understand and know that there was this terminology that I was a daughter of God. And I was created in the image of God. And I could have his spirit inhabit my spirit. And he was the king of peace. And if he calmed the waters and calmed the storm, he could calm the raging waters in my soul. And so shortly thereafter, I had the intuition at a very young age that something wasn't right, because like I alluded to earlier, there was this self-harming behavior that kept repeated itself and repeated self-almost three, even four decades of my life. But it kept me very close to the cross. Jesus Christ, because I wanted answers. I want answers. And my lifelong journey, my life journey and my God life journey coincided at that point. And I began to realize there was more to the picture and that I could be healed. And I could individuate and become all that God wanted me to be while all he had placed aside in me, my passions were going to be realized in his life. And so yeah, that and I progressed later on in life. I went to a few different churches at the time. I also got very involved in inner healing and deliverance. I've been in so many different group settings when it comes to healing and deliverance and power the Holy Spirit. And so Jesus has done an incredible work in my life and my mind. He's given me a pure understanding, a sheer understanding that the veil has been removed. And you know, yeah. So I mean, I am my pain. Man, it's not things. So she kind of gave the context around her grown up and how much the Lord meant to her. While she's doing that, one of the things the most interesting point was she didn't should be in call about it, but she she she was an accounting major. And she spent time on Wall Street on the time there. And so when I met her when she was at the church, we started to kind of go out. And I think I used to drop her at the change station to come back. I figure out. But she called me one day and said, you know, the company's moving us to used to us. And I'm like, in my head, I didn't say that a lot. We just started this thing. What do you mean you got used to? So well, you know, we'll pray about it and we'll see how it goes. And they just had to go out there coming down to the packages. But it was coming to your office and telling them to tell her what's happening. Some people had to let go. And so by the time I took her off on the change station, she is ready to go to use it. As a man, God answers for our pre-quickly. I mean, that just stopped here right there. And now it's sudden, but it's time trying. And so Mary Ann was gone. Mary Ann lived for a year. She spent a year in Houston. That says, I would go there one month. She would come here another month. So we did that for a year. And then part of it is I decided that we decided we talked about it. Okay. That's that's getting there. And so I drove to Texas, attacked up everything, brought her back. Weeks over. I brought her back. And then part of the story that thanks. I mean, I honestly did not give my career, I can say this. I didn't give my career up for Robert. There was a little bit more to one of the, I mean, it was a significant time for us because we knew that God had put us together and that we were moving towards getting married. But the one thing that most people don't even know is that God gave me a promise. Okay. When I was in Texas. And he said, you're going to set this department up. But I'm also going to, I'm also going to deliver you in such a way that you will know it's me because one of the pieces of my journey was that I needed to be on a lot of different medications to function. And he said to me, I'm going to take you off every single medication. And I'm going to do it in seven days. You are going to be off of that. You're and he did. He did do that. Well, he just told me and I contacted my doctor. I insured, hey, can I do this? What's the shelf life of the long life or whatever life of the drug? And he just miraculously did it. He took me off of every single drug that I've ever was on. And all the antidepressants and so many different medications because you know, psychopharmacology is basically prescribing medication to treat symptoms. But my prayer to the Lord many years ago was, can you help me get to the roots of this? And he said, I'm going to do, if you're going to need this for a period of time, but it's going to happen. And so that's one piece, one another piece of significant piece of to my stories that I know what it's like to be on. Many different medications for many years of your life. And then all of a sudden, God doesn't, for everyone, it's different, something going to remain. But so that's another piece of the story. So yeah. And even to this day, I'm just getting her to take a time off right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, she said, I don't know if this, I don't mean for a while, I just think just Well, I think it was in the past, I'm like, Lauren, I said that your greatest pain, you will become your greatest minister. And I'm just sharing you to talk about your absolutely, you seem to really think that too much. Yes. And I'm very grateful. Yeah. Very grateful. Well, it hasn't so emotional healing and deliverance. That's not just your ministry. In a lot of ways, it's a shared ministry for you. How do you approach that as a married couple? Oh, man. This is so interesting. So if from my last time, I'll just see that one of the things I talked about, I'm a big left-brain guy. I call them out of a recovering pace. Yeah. He's a beautiful pace. I mean, there's a people run through walls, get things done, but they get it done. They get the top of mountain and their dead bodies all around. So here I am. I'll left a little to the right. And here is this young lady, maturity right definitely left, but more right. So she was just strictly on the emotional one. She goes into a room and likes at the room. I'm one of those guys. I'm in the room. I'm exhausted. I gotta get out of the room. She just loves that. And so here's what's so interesting is that I know for a long period of time that, you know, didn't really realize that this part needed to be taken care of. And so if I told the story last time, I had a 360 done at evaluation when I was in a church. And when I got the evaluation back, it said what I was. I wasn't the most loving, caring person. I just wanted to get stuff done for God, but in doing so, is she just getting hurt? And so that was a point in time where I got 13 people told me who I was. Some of them include pastors. That made it a little bit harder to date, but then I had a choice. One, I could say, and I found a limb. She'd have none of the thing about EQI. It's the way she does not have any hell if she's from Texas or New York. I could come up with all the kind of reasons, but when 13 people tell you something, and then you say, ultimately, God, this is this true? And he said, I've been trying to get your attention for so long. And so for that day, that was a liberation day from Mary Ann's day. It's from above us. And so that part, I worked it a lot of work on Gento, mother, detailed questions about it, but it'll work on that. What at the same time, recognizing that her background was, and where she came out of, that the emotional part means something to me. I mean, yes, we might focus strictly on the intellectual side. When you were growing up, and you come on a year report card, no one of us said, how did you get along with Billy today? I gave him into January. I was like, what did he get in chemistry? What did he get in that? And so now for us, we realize it's not just about the left side of the brain. It's the right side. When I was going through this process of trying to understand why I did what I did, we live out of our trauma. And I realized that I had stuff in my past that even today, even at that time, I was not dealing with it. Pair myself with a young lady now with all that history. And we come together and I was like, whoa, look here, you just talked about, as somebody always says, you're whatever you go through, it's not for you, it's for somebody who God's going to send to you. And so when we go through this stuff, understanding, learning about this part of her, going through a burst of learning that, and then we see people, God send people our way to have these challenges and issues. And we can see them from a mile away. And from an inner healing perspective, where she gets into the deep stuff, into what happened to you in your three? How did you process that? What did you do with it? Why is it that you're three now? And you're 55 and you're behaving with some behaviors, you're three and help people try to understand that. On my end, it's more on the emotional side of things, how it relates to leading people, and they think people better. So for both of us coming together, it just kind of made sense that God would lead us this way. I'm going to mention one thing that we're working on. Yes. To tell you how crazy it is, we're driving along on a road. And it's me, I was driving some air in, was here, Steven is in the back, Solana is in the back left, and I hit something. Yes. And the car just started to go crazy. And it duped. So I said, everybody, everything is okay. She said, my goodness, what is happening? Is there something that we Savannah started to cry? Steven, oh, Steven, Steven had another reaction. He was he was attempting to calm Savannah. He was trying to find some dynamics. It dawned on me and I was like, we're operating out of what happened historically. And we created this thing called a podcast five traumatized people in a car because every person has a different reaction to an event. And you're reacting out of the event based on what happened. The triggers seeing a patch or some triggers. And so for us, it's like, okay, every person we see, we always are trying to figure out, not figure out, but what's happening. When she talks to people and she's coaching people and it's always, okay, tell me what's going on. But then what's happening around there? Because nine times out of ten, it always comes back to them. And there's a critical part. If you don't address that, yes, you will never get to where you need to. I mean, but God is always kind of pointing to you. And it's sometimes it's up to us to kind of listen to it. And there and she's just been it's an avenue. So I think thank you, honey. And well said on I think that at the end of the day, it's none of our places to ever judge. It's our place to reach out with courage and compassion as in trying to understand because you know, today we see so many even, let's say, leaders falling from grace. And my thing is does anyone take the time to assess where have they been, what how, what has happened in their journey that that and it's not my place. It's not our place to judge. It's our place to understand and assess so that we can see the grace of God and the compassion of Jesus. We made manifest in that particularly. And it's beautiful. Now nowadays I work with people and this is what I'm teaching. I'm facilitating, I should say. I'm teaching myself. I'm facilitating for myself as well because it's always it starts with with us first is so many people struggling because they're stuck. They don't know how to move out of that place of being stuck. The fact and the matter is the Lord has shown me really clearly from my own journey. Have compassion on you first. Jesus said he looked out and he saw and he said he looked out and he was moved with compassion because he saw them go the sheep were all, you know, a stray and the same thing with us helped me Lord and help others to help facilitate a sense of compassion towards yourself so that once you have that compassion, it's much easier to do the assessment on oneself to see how the factors all playing apart in the product, how we see ourselves functioning today. And then grace can be poured out and redemption and restoration and all forms of reconciliation. Yeah. That's really powerful. It's hard. It's hard for them. This is interesting. You have a definition of a true power couple. We think of that sometimes in other ways, but the way that you come together to answer the need in the world. So how has it been the journey of you have your own life, your own education? So does Dr. Ruth and how has it been walking alongside and journeying together just in motion? I would say I'll start now and go backwards. I would say being first lady at Rapper's Buzz University to see Mary Ann engage with the students, see her having a location where she can just go and just be herself and be in an environment where one of the number one things now young people is mental health issues. And so it's almost like she's in a triangle. She's in heaven. So she's just, you know, it's all these people that she's like, oh my goodness, God is sending them my way. Now going back to from from the start when I was at the church, I was a chief operating officer at the church and she was in New York doing a wall shooting, accounting and all that kind of stuff. And then I got called into ministry. We decided that you would, you know, you'd be at home and I would be working. But from a ministry perspective, we always felt, I'm not speaking myself, I mean, you can speak as well. We always felt like God had a bigger purpose for our lives. We couldn't couldn't figure it out. So in the past or at that time asked me to come join the church for an administrative executive pastor kind of role. We took it and Marianne was right next to me for 16 years when I was at Christchurch. At that same time I was at Christchurch when I got that revelation about what it was, we decided to start this non-trophical, the Center for Emotional and Spiritual Development because really believe in the emotional side of things. If I might just do a rapid trail later, we understand the brain well that the cortex is on top that just deal with facts. There's this thing called the amygdala that stores all the emotions from the moment you were born. And then there is the prefrontal area. You take your facts, it comes down here, you take the emotion, then that's where the decisions are made. We really believe that. What really key is in this part, every single emotion has been stored. So when you see somebody that looks like an uncle that hurts you, you're reacting to that person just like this, it's an uncle. And so we were just learning these things that were going on. I got into the different parts of things and understood that as well. And so as we're journeying through churches from Christchurch to live Christian Mary Ann is really engaging into this world that she has created based on her own experience, you know, from a child to now. And so she has a clean way of when people come into our myths to be able to see what's behind what's in front of her because she, because of her experience, she can just say, okay, yeah, this is what's going on. That's a good thing. And for disarmament, humility to discern is pretty, pretty high. And so the product progress has been that. And she's on her own, taken on some things that she said, okay, God has called me to do this while we're still moving along together. Yeah. And that I truly believe, if I may, when thank you, for that is the discernment I believe is given by God to not be judgmental because the fact of the matter is, if it wasn't for the mercy of God, where would we go? So grace says, I will show you whether it's to pray into seed or to come alongside and to bring about awareness. It's never to judge and to pull people away from Jesus is to push them towards the image of God. And so I appreciate how Rupert expanded on that if I may also add is that, you know, Alicia and Van Lin and Rupert even ministry involves brokenness. I say that to say that, you know, coming alongside my husband in the years that he was in ministry, while I was on my journey of healing, I would say he was on his journey of healing. And together, we were on our journey of healing. And then the fact is, is the common denominator is brokenness. We all have a form of governance, whether you're raising a home with mental illness, you're raising a home with theirs, divorce, or you're raising a home with theirs under any form of meditation, whatever may be the case, perfectionism, performance, orientation, whatever may be the case. But the thing is that Jesus comes to need us in our brokenness and King David below it, anyone can blow it. And at the end of the day, we still carry the image of God. And so what can we do to push even ministerial environments towards an understanding that help people, encourage people, develop compassion to push them spiritually form them, which I'm going back from my master's beginning in September at my teenage of, no, I'm not going to say anything. Okay, continuation at region university, I started my degree a long, long back, and I, you know, I'm starting to great region university, and I'm continuing it because the inspirational formation because I want to become, it's my heart to see people truly formed spiritually because that discipleship is such an important piece and it incorporates the whole being, the spirit, the soul, you know, the spirit, the soul and the body. So I say that all to say, and in regards to how do I function and vent when alongside my husband, I really just have come to recognize over many years of whether it's being a minister, you're being in court and paragraph that like I said earlier, we all all working towards becoming like Jesus. If we're in the sanctification process, which we all should be right as Christians, if we profess to be Christ follows, we should be moving in that direction. It doesn't make me or you or anyone better, it helps us to live life according to the pattern and the way that God ultimately wanted us to win. So however, what environment, whether he's at the university, whether he's been at the church, in the church setting, whether he's been in corporate America, I've always taken this few, three pillars, look at everything in life, do the eyes and ears of redemption, restoration and reconciliation because at some point in any of those arenas, you're going to have to face those three components. That's so good. I love good olderation. Yeah, redemption, restoration, and reconciliation, that's right, the three pillars. You mentioned Savannah and Stephen, those are your teenage children. Yes, tell us a little bit more about that. Okay, well, they're 14 going on. They are wonderful twins. Stephen is the most caring and official, but it was the other soft heart for people, but he's also extremely outgoing. Savannah is the more serious one that would come into a room and just sit back and check out everybody to try to first see if what's coming on. She and Mary Anna like this from a discernment perspective because they're always checking things out. Stephen, yeah, so outgoing, or we sometimes call it the mayor, if you go anywhere. We're at, I think we're at no work airport and, you know, so we're at the first place. And we look over there. He's having, I mean, tense conversation about messenger that we've never met before. What could he be talking about? Yes, yes, very easy. And I'm like, what could he possibly talk about? She's buddies that outgoing. They're based on software, might end up with the travel theme and stuff. And you can say something. Yeah, I'm sure. So they're very, very precious and randomly shared rubric. This is fascinating to me because even in their journeys, you know, Savannah has been going to a Christian school since, since, since kindergarten, where Stephen has been in a public school in a charter setting. And if I may say, and, and her, their situation does ultimately prove this whole need for us to have this redemptive reconciliation and restorative components in our hearts. This, this, this, this way of thinking and discerning is that even though Savannah has been at a Christian school and she's been so Bible like a memorized scripture every week, they're memorizing the get tested on the memorization. She'll quote you with scripture, she'll quote us with scripture. Stephen doesn't isn't fond, very fond, even though we have a little Bible studies at home at times and all that. He moves away from the Bible. He was, so we're always trying to input that dimension. I will say that they each carry their own need for understanding and embracing the fact that they've been created in the image of God. And I see it even in their, I call them shenanigans at 14, you know, it's shenanigans like it's just shenanigans like why are you talking like that? Why are you like, we're all we're humans. We're, we're in the flesh, but we all need Jesus. And so, so as it relates them, we love them deeply. They got two new guinea pigs in the past few weeks. They're taking care of these guinea pigs like you would never leave a specialty Stephen. But this they're they're working, we're working on their things too. We're having fun, we're disciplining, but we're also really aware in in line with five traumatized people in a card that we all are working on. I'm so you didn't talk about the farm. Yes. So we held out, he said, no phone. Yeah. In this modern 2025, no phone, 2023, no phone, 2024, no phone. Wow. We were the worst parent in the history of human kind. Everyone knows how everybody has a boy, can we have a, how he's decided. Yes. So you're going to have, we said, okay, we're going to get your phone, but just in a limited hours, you can't just be on it all the time. And they got the phone. And the things that we see on TV here and to hear about phones and teenagers, we literally are seeing it in front of us, where I might tell my daughter to put the phone down and she as does not have the ability to get off instantly. Yeah, it's just like, it's just to hope. So we have to create, we have to sign on to some programs to make a plug for Questelio, because on Questelio, you can monitor everything there. I wanted a beautiful thing that Questelio has. It has the ability to express the one button and it shuts off the internet for them. So when they're doing stuff, and they said, okay, go do this. Yeah. Oh, shut up. There you go. For all of us, like, go up. So until I'm back here, it's supposed to be for teenage years or so. And they just want to do it. And that's what I'm saying at this age, you know, Mary mentioned it. They're in, individually, I mean, they're being there on self-cognitive. And at that time, it's, it's, it's usually where the rough things start to happen. We're going through it now. We're in the midst of it, but we're having fun because the good thing is, someone uses term, what man has done, men will do, meaning what somebody has gone through. You can go through too. And so tons of people have gone through this, to munch for us, to munch for us. There are some of the four's guests, the year old, about 15. Yeah. So we're looking forward to 16. I know those are coming, they're learning. It's insane. It's insane. Well, you speak of them with such joy, but with smiles. The phone is certainly as a challenge. Yeah. But what has been your greatest challenge, raising them? And what is your greatest wish for them? As past, sure, sure. So the greatest, the greatest wish for them. So if I may, because I drive Savannah to school in the morning, if I use this as an example, as how I could qualify one of the greatest wishes I have for, let's say Savannah, as I'm with her, a lot in the next video going, we have these intense conversations is, is asking God, what are gifts are? And then praying into that, with, I have what we talked about it, the rippages referenced it earlier, that is this cohesion, dance with her, not, I recognize an award. Really, it's, it's manifesting that she's very prophetic and has very strong discernment. So my greatest and outrageous, I would say, remember, you can speak for yourself after, but is to see her become all that God has for her. And, and so I'm already taking the cubes from the Holy Spirit. And then I'm, so I'm training her, so she'll tell me incident in school and I'll say, peace of mind. Let's pause. Let's pause a second. Do you hear anything? She says, what do you mean? I say, well, first of all, you know, the Bible, you know, it talks of gossip, right? You heard that. And then she'll say, yeah, mommy, it is gossip. And then I'll say, okay, let's just pause another few minutes. So I'm facilitating an environment for her where she can hear God for herself. And I'm doing it intentionally. It's my way because I have that quality time in the car with her to foster that. So the answer is we want to see them. If she's going to be a soccer player, that's fantastic. If Steven's going to be a tradesman, he's a STEM boy. We want to see that because that's who God STEM boy, right? What was that boy? It's like that is where, you know, the joy of their existence will come because not everyone is cut out to be going to an Ivy League school or a charter school or a Christian school. It is what God hit this identity for that. So that is, would you? Yeah. And what's the greatest you want? I'm talking about parenting. We want to be like you. And sometimes you see things different. And as parents, we have to accept that the first thing. You know, I might go up here and did all these things, but maybe Steven is not out for that. Steven, if you meet Steven, as I told him, he's in the air. And I always thought, Steven will mark you anything. No matter what it is, you say the sun is shining. And he says, well, it might be shining, but if you look this way, it's not shining. You're like, so Steven, it's just shining. It's leaving us. And so every single thing, each house where convinced, he conquered it. That he'll be a tire or something. Every single thing is a discussion. And I want to know. And so we just seeing that and realizing that God is speaking something that we might just say, oh, you're going to say, oh, you just like to debate things all the time, but his gift might be in that debate. You just got to foster that. I know that's okay. God's you give us this gift. Let's just see what you want to do with it. And I'm not imposed on ourselves. And it's not easy to trust me. It's not easy. When you use, yeah, there's something you just don't know what God is doing. Yeah. But he's doing something. You got to be, okay, I'm not necessarily doing, but okay, let me just trust that you're doing it. Because we know you're going to do it right. But at the same time, we just want to control. That's really important. Yeah. It's like, it's like, I can't help it. I said, it's very comical. You know, especially when we lived in New Jersey, Savannah would go to a store. Okay. She'd be shopping with dad. And she would come home and I'd find flowers on the kitchen. I wouldn't. And she comes into the room and she would outright play and we say, I'm happy. I told daddy to get to those farms. I got out of the shop. And she has an ability at a very young age there. She cares very, very deeply. There's many stories behind her life story, but suffice the same. This is not the form for you. But I will say that is a depiction of a level of, I would even say discernment. She has an ability to see mommy needs that. She has that ability already at a very young age of empathy. She does it, but then she's very challenging. So honey, Vandalin asked, what about the most challenging thing you said, Vandalin? Most challenging thing. Is to not, and I said it before, can I like for a little bit more, not impose on them what it is, you want them to do or to be. That's been challenging because, you know, you want, somebody said that fear is lack of control. And we're always trying to control things. And then if we can control it, we get fearful because we just don't know what the outcomes are going to be. And so for us, as parents, we want to control exactly what they're going to to be and what they're going to do. But at the same time as you're trying to control it, let's put it aside. Here's another dimension where they're individuating, and they're becoming their own person. And yet at the same time you want to do this, and yet at the same time you're thinking about their future, but every parent wanted the best for their future. So the challenging part is trying to understand all of what's happening at the same time from a Christlike perspective, like, God, I just don't understand what you're doing toward, but I got to trust that you don't. And the thing is with Robert and I, one of the challenges, and I think it's important in this space to be able to say this is sort of like a holy space to be insane. Because I think all of us parents experienced it at some point in time is the parenting styles and the friction of one child gravitating to one parent, and knowing that at this, you know, these these manipulatives, and deception too. Because you know, remember, they're all broken. We're all broken. Look at for the redemption and the restoration, the reconciliation, but the fact of the matter is we now talk about it. And that's that's overcoming the challenge because they know how to push and pull when it works for them. And for us, it's the it's getting to the nitty-gritty or saying, but we need to both be in a line. Like, you know, I grew, are we in alignment? Yes. Because they'll re, real, don't read it so quickly, and they will come. And yeah, so that's, that's an opening. They've got some right for us. They're not a little little. Yes. This has been such a fascinating conversation through through marriage, through ministry in marriage, um, parenthood. Maybe we could wrap that up with a couple of questions. Before we started recording, Vandal Lin and I were talking about singles and the church. As a couple about to sell a bigger silver anniversary, do you, do you think it's harder to meet people in the church now than it was for you 25 years ago? I may introduce to you the NLA you oversaw or a cold leader or the single. And so they see you did say, what is it easier? Can you keep it on mind? Do you think it's harder these things? Because as Vandal and I were chatting before the show, you know, she has some ideas about how to, how to address the she thinks technology can be part of it. I'm just curious for your perspective, do you think it's harder now than for us to be, to meet someone to get married? Wow. That's such a profound and there's so many different dynamics that I can go from. But so if I say I think the one that I would like to just expound on is I do believe with all of the different distractions and, you know, social media being a very huge distraction to the way the brain is even functioning. They're there and then communication because now the thoughts are coming through in small of freezes and the connections and the eye activity, the eye gate is not being used. I believe as God would want it to be you. So I'm talking to you and I'm choosing to look at you in the eye. But if I know and my condition is my phone's right in my pocket, okay, look real quickly and look down or you go into a store and unfortunately you see this all the time they're in the aisle that that will source and they'll look at that. And the boss is like probably down three miles later, but hey, you know, I can do this. And so are they as attentive to the customer and the consumer? Let's use that as an example. So it's a distraction and if I may also add to that what we see in man, my number is that the distraction is more paramount and it is more it speaks to disintegration and disconnection which when it's obviously compounded with emotional dysregulation. We have a greater disparity and hence in answer to your question, I do think it's more difficult today because the connection and the substance upon which healthy relationships are built are not even given a given a chance. If I could equate it to what's going on in many different ministerial settings is formation is not is is so significant, but discipleship is significant, but but there's so many distractions. So so yeah, no, I think it's and my addition to that it is absolutely yes. Narian just kind of tied the bullet to it then. 20, 30 years ago, the level of technology, the level of distractions were not as prevalent of the day and there are so many different ways actually the technology has helped right in that it connects the world closer, but by connecting the world closer it created so many distractions in the connection that it creates disintegration where people are just they're just all over the place. There's no centering crisis, the center of everything and so you know, somebody can meet somebody they can jump on whatever happened they need somebody, but that's just the beginning. You have to get to know them, get out of the stand and is this person, you know, what was this person history? I was out of the background. Do they seem like they're here? Are they here with me? But Matthew, I mean all those things because I think the difficulty is there's a lot more distraction and I think what helps the process is one, knowing what distractions are, but to be able to discern that they're distraction and I think that's very something that difficulty applies especially for people nowadays because, you know, my daughter on Instagram will click. I got to see click who who relies who likes. I got what he said, can he? Big picture of things, yes. I just like, well, cares, well, thanks, but sometimes people use that as the measure so that and you might not really care about it. I'm like, then we have to get together and then this becomes a distraction from me getting to understanding them. Right, true. Yeah, in my sense. Okay, last question. And I think this will bring us full circles to conversation that we have with you, Dr. Hayles. Mrs. Hayles, you are from Brooklyn. You came to faith at a new, NYU, no less, right? What is your heart envision for New York City? You know, as you look into this next chapter for for Roberts, like what do you see, like what you want for New York, and for Christian education? Oh, thank you. Very asking that. I mean, see, um, it's a loaded packed question, but I'm going to just try my best. So, so what I would desire is to see because ultimately the end of the day, I do believe the answer to everything is anyone and every young man, young woman of any age, adults do, right, is coming to know Jesus Christ, but but even another step further is truly coming into the knowledge and the experience, the authentic experience of knowing you've been created in the image of the creator of the universe. And there is nothing that can change that fact, but just a growing experience. A God-like journey that progressively moves young people, moves people at any age, closer and closer, that understanding. And it takes, here it is, it takes intentional, slowing down to move forward with a healthy, because we want to see people become glory, glory carriers, meaning they're carrying a dimension of the heart of God that can bring about transformation just because he is embedded in that space in that person's life. And they carry that. They are carriers, they're ministers, and you don't have to be using scripture all the time. They can be walking in the power of the Holy Spirit and changing and changing lives and changing environments and changing institutions and organizations, you know, and and not having to be on their phones all the time for stimulating, but they can be stimulated inwardly by that intimacy with God. Yes, that's beautiful. Well, thank you to my guest host, Vandalin. It was great to have you here with me today. And thank you both, you're both glory carriers. And it's just such a pleasure to be with you in the same space, so sure, a conversation with you. And I'm looking forward to our next conversation. It's our pleasure. Thank you so much. Yes, to both, thank you. Appreciate and I want for you. Thank you. Thank you for tuning in to the Faithless Stories podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey. The Faithless Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithless, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff, and volunteers. The Faithless Digital Platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection, foster collaboration, and promote growth within the church and ministry space. Remember to subscribe, rate, and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you. Stay tuned for more uplifting tales from the frontlines of ministry on the Faithless podcast. Stay bold, stay faithful, and never underestimate the power of your own story.