God In The City - Adrian Tam

Hi everyone, my name is Adrian Tam. I'm the follower of Jesus and I've won wife and three kids. I'm also a pastor of a church here in Sydney, Australia. And I get to also alongside that lead a great ministry called Faith Tech, which is all about bridging the gap between the Christian faith and the tech industry. Welcome to Faith Lee Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders. As they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life, join us as we delve into their challenges, moments of encouragement and answered prayers. The Faith Lee Stories podcast is brought to you by Faith Lee, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. Learn more at Faith Lee.co. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired. As we unveil the heart of faith through stories from the front lines of ministry on the Faith Lee Stories podcast. Thank you so much Adrian. I am just so happy to be having this conversation with you. I feel like we've been planning to have it for several months now, but I've got three kids. You've got three kids. I wear multiple hats and multiple ministries and so do you. On top of that, we've got a 12, 13, 14, 15. We've had a 16 hour time difference. Yes. It's 8 p.m. here in York City. It is noon and Sydney. It really did take months for us to put it together, but I'm just so happy that we're chatting now. Thank you. I send greetings from the future because we are Monday and you're Sunday, the moment. We live ahead of your time. I always knew that time didn't mean to God, but it meant to us. This is really just perfect. Adrian, you've had this incredible journey where you started in the corporate world. You've worked in nonprofits. You've worked in Faith Tech companies. You've planted churches. You've been on staff at churches and you have these great ministries. It's easy for me to see how God's woven all that together to bring you to this place that it feels like you're really, it's a tradition to catalyze something where you are in Sydney and in your broader region, but I'd love to go on that journey a little bit with you. Can you talk about that time when you were at Deloitte? Not only were you in corporate, you were at a firm that was like, if you were an accountant or if you're a consulting person, that's like the pinnacle. That's like the dream job to work at Deloitte. Can you talk about what made you decide to go from that to full-time ministry? I still ask myself that question sometimes at different moments. I grew up in a very academic environment, similar to a lot of migrant kids in Western countries. My dad is from Hong Kong originally, was the first in his family to leave the country. Came to Australia in the late 70s. That classic story came with the clothes on his back in a small suitcase and just built a legacy from the ground up. I think that kind of work ethic, perform, succeed, provide. That was just always part of my family script growing up. I grew up in the church, grew up knowing God and loving Jesus, but the idea of having a life that was stable or lucrative was just not at all part of my thinking. It was, yeah, go to church, but pursue a great career so you can provide and build on the foundations that my parents have left for me. Probably during my late high school years, I had some great youth leaders, mentors, and also my older brother who started to see something. I guess you could say, call of God in my life towards vocational ministry. Look, I very much resisted that at first and I just thought, why would I do that? I can do something much better with my life, make more money, have more respect. I view at the time seeing the church leaders at the churches that I grew up in was, no, I don't want to be that person. I don't want to be everyone's boss and be the punching, but having everyone in the church and all that kind of thing. Over the years, I think that desire to serve God in that particular way just continued to grow and grow was I got involved into types of ministry and church life. It became really clear probably two years before I actually made that final decision. I already knew that that's what I needed to do. When it actually came time to pull the plug and had in my resignation at Deloitte, it actually wasn't a hard decision, but it took quite a few years to get there, for sure. Wow, I can't believe your brother saw that in you. He called it, right? We hear that so often from folks in pastoral ministries that they, someone sees the column, they sense the call, but they resist and it takes a while for them to begin their ministry journey. So for you, did you leave your job, then search for your role in ministry, or did you leave your job knowing what you were going to do next? Yeah, it was definitely the latter, but the way that it played out was, so I finished my, so I did a double degree at university, commerce and law, and then I've got a job at Deloitte straight out of university, also got married that first year out of university as well, or college, as you guys call it in the States. But by that time, I already knew, like I said, that I wanted to be in ministry, it was actually very reluctantly worked at Deloitte, which sounds weird, because like you said, for a lot of people, that is the pinnacle, that's the dream. But for me, it was just like, this is not what I want to be long term, but it was almost out of a sense of like obedience, because I think what God was really impressing my heart at the time was that I needed some level of exposure or experience in the corporate world before I was ready, actually for ministry, and he needed to kind of test my character in different ways. And so, yeah, those kind of close to two years that I spent at Deloitte, no shadow in Deloitte, but I didn't particularly enjoy it, and it wasn't anyone's fault other than I just knew that that's not what I needed to be long term. But actually, I haven't shared this in many years now, but I actually remember during those two years at Deloitte, I was really resting with God. I'm like, what am I doing here? I'm not using my gifts, I should be doing something else. And I felt like actually God posed a question to me, and the question went something like this. I think God was saying to me, he said, Adrian, if I asked you to do this, like to stay at Deloitte and work in corporate tax for the rest of your life, would you be content? And my answer was, of course not, like no way. And the moment I answered the question that I knew that that was actually the wrong answer, because obviously, which I now know, like obedience is success. Like that is the pinnacle of success as far as the Christian life is concerned. And so the important phrase was, if God asked me to do that, what do I do it? And the answer was no. And so I actually need to like surrender that dream and that sense of calling towards ministry. I totally lay that down again. And I think it was actually not long after I actually finally resubmitted myself to God's will after that happened, not long after, out of the blue, I was offered this role in ministry that was just so out of the blue that it was very clearly, you know, God's leading. So that's kind of the journey. Wow, that's amazing. And so powerful. So that first job that the Lord delivered to you, how did it feel? And did you feel like you were ready for it? Yeah, I think. What was it? What was that first ministry job? Yeah, yeah. And how did it feel stepping into it? Look, in many ways, it was a dream come true because it was what I'd been wanting, you know, for so long. It was a, so I was employed as a use in young adults pastor full time. And it was, it was amazing because, you know, the senior minister and I've been in contact with him recently. His name is Larry Galbraith. He's one of the heroes of the faith. And I just owe so much, you know, to him because he just gave me the best possible start, you know, to ministry and pastoral leadership. He was just empowering, releasing, you know, led brilliantly. Just led this uncomplicated church that was just full of life, generosity. And just gave me, I think he gave me more rope than he should have, you know, but just that's the way that you lead. It's just the way that, you know, just incredibly trusting and empowering. And yeah, in some ways, I felt really ready. But in other ways, I felt in, you know, in a fun way, undeserving of how much authority, you know, I was given. And it was, we had a blast, you know, I was there for three and a half years. And like I said, just had a lot of fun, learned a lot, but Larry just really backed me and covered me. And yeah, it was an awesome way to begin my journey ministry. Yeah, that's amazing. Like so often, that's not the story. So often or working whether it's in the church or in the corporate world for someone who may not be prepared to lead them in that season of their career. So to begin your ministry journey in that way, I think is really awesome. Now, not long after that, you planted a church, right? Yes, yeah, that's right. It's not how you went from starting your very first job in ministry as a youth and young adult leader to then planting a church. Yeah, that's great, great question. I think one of the things that I've learned or realized quite recently is just how God will often, I mean, God always, like you said at the beginning, the way that we see times like how God sees time and he sees the end from beginning and the beginning from the end. And so often there'll be little kind of like bread crumbs or clues in your story right from the beginning that you don't understand what it's about until much later on. And so that was the case for me and actually for me, my wife, like in the early days of our relationship, you know, I was in 18, she was, you know, 19 or whatever it was. We actually had a number of people prophesy over us and kind of share that, you know, they saw an image of or a picture or whatever it was of you guys planting a church in a suburb called Chatswood. So it's, you know, in the North Shore of Sydney, you know, very affluent area, very multi-cultural door, that kind of thing. And it was like three separate parties who all said the exact same thing. And so we thought, okay, there's something to this. There's no immediate next step for us, you know, we're teenagers, not married or like kind of thing, but we remember that we kind of like tucked that away in our hearts. And then obviously I got married and then I got this role as a youth and young adults pastor and I didn't have an exit strategy. I wasn't like, okay, this is going to be the stepping stone to the next thing because loving what we were doing and all that kind of thing. But probably after two, three years, like that those words just started to resurface in our minds. And at the same time, I started getting offered all these different roles and different churches. And I was like, what's going on here? Something seems to be stirring. And then in that whole process, you know, God really made it clear that actually the time is now, like those things that I spoke to you all those years ago, now is a time to actually step into it. So obviously I sat down with Larry, I was seeing him minister and I said, hey, I think, you know, God's beginning to lead us in that direction. And so we went on that journey together. And then long story short, this other church that we had some connection to, they approached me, you know, one day and they said, hey, we're thinking of planting a church out of our existing church, out of their church, there exists in church. And the location that we're thinking of was chats with the very specific place that God had spoken to us about many years ago. And they said, hey, we love you and your wife to come and born with us for a year, you know, get to know our church and then we'll send you out, you know, to plant. And so again, it was just one of those God aligning right people, right time, right place, and that's how it all kind of unfolded. Help me to like understand what that moment was like for you. You know, this was probably over you and your wife by multiple people. And then years later, it comes to pass like this to me as a fall down on your face moment. Like what was that like for your wife? Yeah, it is taking me back now a little bit, you know, and I'm glad you're asking these questions because it is so important to not forget when God does those kinds of things. I think again, what I've learned is that there is, there is often a time lag between the, I guess you call it the anointing and the appointing. Right the moment when actually you hear or you feel God baking something of your destiny or your calling or your future, whatever you have or whatever you call it. And I think in our limited thinking, we tend to think, okay, that means it's now like, okay, tomorrow I'm going to see that coming to pass and it's going to be the complete fulfillment of all of that. And there's often a time like saying with, you know, David being the most obvious example, like he, he, he, he was anointed with the authority and with, you know, with that future. But actually it was many years before he stepped into that, saying with people like Joseph and whatnot, and he was a dream. And he actually had those gifts in him from a very young age, but there was so much character that needed to be tested before he could step into that. So I think it was the same in a sense that it was obviously very surreal, you know, when, when, because actually just a rewind a little bit, what happened was, you know, I was two, two and a bit years since my role as a youth and young adults pastor. And again, I said there was no desire, I wasn't looking for the next thing or anything like that, but I just out of nowhere, thought of being approached and offered all these different jobs. And they were all kind of like, yeah, they sound kind of good in this elements that are liking that all of them, but none of them just had that kind of, you know, touch of God on it when you just know this is the thing. And then as I kind of turned down all this different opportunities, then when this last thing came, came, you know, across my table, so to speak, it was just so clear that it was almost like all the spotlights were shining on this one thing. And it was, yeah, it was surreal because it was God's reminder to us that, do you remember what I said to you all those years ago, that was real and I haven't forgotten about it, parent you about it, I've been preparing you for it. And so it was, yeah, it was a no brain, it was like, of course, like we have to step in and obviously we had to say goodbye and, you know, that was sad and difficult in many ways, but also really beautiful. You want it to be hard to leave, you know, a context, right? And that's what it was for us. Wow, thank you for sharing that. So I'd love to ask you some questions about faith tech. So you've been there for about a year and a half now, it's this global community of people who are in tech who are following Christ. Now I think when folks first hear about faith tech, they have questions, right, like are we talking about people who work at Google, who happen to be followers or are these people who want to work in tech? Yeah, faith tech, I guess one of our taglines is we are a global tech community for Christ. And the beautiful thing about it is that obviously these days, you know, tech is everything and everywhere. And so in some ways, the boundaries of who we are trying to connect with essentially don't exist. It's almost like an opt-in situation. If you feel like this is your community, if you have some level of affinity or interest in technology, we can be the place for you. And that's very much, I mean, my own story is the same. I mean, I work for faith tech, but I have no formal background in technology at all. I couldn't ride the line of code to save my life. I don't know if I'm so swift with that. That makes two of us. Yeah, but I mean, thankfully these days you've got plenty of great tools I can do that for you as well. But I don't have any background in tech, you know, formally. But what I do have is I've always been a like a futurist. I don't know if you ever done strength binders and those kinds of things, but I always come up with like futurist as number one. So I've always had an interest in what's next, emerging things, trends and all that kind of thing. So I feel an affinity, you know, with tech community and I can feel a part of it. And so, yeah, I mean, if you want to get into specifics, like let's say with the faith tech Australia community, you've got, yeah, certainly people who are working in Google, you know, meta or that kind of thing are people who are doing, you know, you know, entrepreneurs or kind of venturing into tech either as a side thing or what they've done a complete shift. I think you've also got people who are working for large corporates who are in a tech department or tech division and then everything in between it's a real, you know, it's a, it's a mixed bag. But I think the common ground is we love Jesus and we love technology and we want those two worlds to not be like all in water or even conflicting with one another, which often that's how they're pitted. Like these two things cannot go against this a pick one, but the people that we tend to connect with is no, we, we have a passion for both and how can we integrate the two, there must be a way. And that's kind of why why faith tech exists. That's that's really awesome. So you've also spent a couple years at Redeemer City to city Australia. Now Redeemer City to city. I think most people know grew out of the Redeemer churches grew out of Tim Keller's ministry here in New York. So it's a ministry that being based in New York that I'm really familiar with. I've spent a lot of time with the amazing leaders there. Tell me a little bit about your time there. You've, you've been the assistant director of church planting. What had that been like for you, especially as someone who has been a church planter. Yeah. Well, I was going to start there because my connection with city to city first began as a planter. So like I said, my wife and I we planted a church here in Sydney. And we, we actually spent a bit of time in New York before we planted. So we did a kind of four week international church plan is intensive at the Redeemer offices where we were trained as planters. And honestly, that was one of the most transformative experiences of my life being in a cohort was I think maybe 35 church planters from around the world. You know, all in really different contexts, but united by a shared, you know, love for obviously love Tim Keller, but, but a shared love how do we like contextualize the gospel into our city. And so, yeah, it was amazing time. And so I was a beneficiary of the ministry of city to city. And then yeah, fast forward a couple of years later than city to city. Yes, set up operations in Australia. And then a role, you know, became available to actually be a part of the church planting team. And I thought, I had what a great, you know, full circle moment in some ways to the beneficiary first of the great work that city to city does, but then now able to help other planters as well. So, yeah, I've been doing that for the last couple of years and it's been a lot of fun. That's awesome. So you spent some time in New York and you're a part of this really global network for church planting. How's that given you some insight into how church planting in the church in general might be a little different in Sydney than in other cities around the world? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, I, this is something I quote often and I've heard it third hand. So I hope it's not a miss quote, but some of some of your listeners might be familiar with a guy called Ed Stetsa. So it's very well on a missiologist. And apparently some years ago, I think quite a few years ago now, apparently he came to Sydney one time and his comment or his observation was he said that he said that the church in Sydney is the most divided out of anywhere he's seen in the world. Which is not a title that you want to have. So this is Sydney specifically. I know you asked about Australia, but I'll talk just about Sydney first. Sydney's where I've, you know, born and raised I've been in the church my whole life. And when I heard that it broke my heart because my experience of that has been exactly true. That's that's exactly what I've experienced. You know, we, the church in Sydney is extremely well resourced. Like we have some of the greatest, I would say, exports in the global church have come out of Sydney, you know, where you land in terms of denomination, whatever. You can probably find a hero, you know, in your stream of Christianity that originates in Sydney in some form. So we are extremely blessed in terms of resource and all that kind of thing. Certainly, you know, per capita and given the size of the population that we are. But the unfortunate side of that is that there has been a lot of infighting. I think there's, you know, because there's like almost, you know, giants in so many different streams. It's like, well, if you're with us, then you can't be with those people. And if you believe this, then you can't associate with these people over here. And so there has been a lot of that. And I think that makes Sydney unique, not in a good way. But what I would say is, and I was actually chatting to someone recently about this, who's from the States, but he's done a lot of ministry in Australia. And he observed this as well. And I said, I think that's spot on. What he observed was, I think in the last probably 10, 15 years, that is changing. And I think, I think Tim Keller actually wrote a lot about this in terms of what he saw in New York. And in terms of like seeing that tipping point of evangelism and real kind of shift happening in the, in the spiritual landscape. Well, a lot of actually can be traced to when the church becomes more united, you know, when when actually the body starts to operate properly in a city, that's when the church of the whole becomes more effective. And I think Sydney is that is now starting to go that similar journey where actually where there once was tribalism and silos and infighting. I think that is beginning to shift. Some of that is generational as well. But I think there are some really positive signs that that is starting to evolve. So that's, I would answer that question that way. But the other thing I would say as well is that I think because of, you know, globalization and just rapidly accelerating secularism. I would say that in some ways Australia is very similar to a lot of other Western nations as well where it's like you probably have more in common between the major cities of different countries. Then you would a city in Australia compared to a regional town in Australia, if you know what I mean. So I think say New York and Sydney will be a lot similar to lots more similar compared to Sydney. And I don't know, a place called Waga Waga, which you probably would have never heard of. But I think it's all becoming very similar, I would say. Well, I'm getting a geography lesson on Australia tonight. I've heard about Chad with. I've heard about Sydney. I've now heard about Waga Waga. So thank you, you know, divisiveness and conflict in the church. That's no surprise that any of us this side of heaven. But it's so encouraging to hear that there's been a tipping point and that you're in a season where that seems to be shifting. And what a beautiful season for you to be stepping back into ministry. So you've been in ministry. You haven't never stepped out of ministry since you stepped into it. But you've done these different things, right? Like being a city to city, being a faith tech, you're about to announce at the time of recording you're about to announce a new role in ministry. So maybe can you talk about that? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. Like I said earlier, I think God always takes a long view, you know, when he works in your life. And I think, yeah, I think from a very young age, you know, I've known that I've, you know, been called to past all ministry and to lead a church. But over the last few years, I've kind of done more adjacent things. Like you said, still in ministry, but not so much in the church space. Yeah, probably about two years ago, you know, God started to, you know, elbow me in the ribs again, if you live and say, actually don't forget about, you know, that call to lead or to plan the church. And it's probably a six months prior to when we're speaking now. Basically, yeah, God reminded me specifically of that call to the city, you know, to the city of Sydney and to the real kind of downtown urban core of Sydney is something that I've always really loved. And it says has had a really special place in my heart. And so I just, you know, both my wife and I started to discern that maybe God was calling us to plan the church in the city and ride the heart of city. I'd ride the heart of Sydney city. And then almost at exactly the same time, which now when I was on a coincidence, one of my mentors and kind of key contacts in Sydney, she spoke to me and she said, hey, like her pastor. So she, she goes to a church right in the middle of Sydney at her passes were actually wanting to transition out for the last like 18 months, but just couldn't find the right people to hand the church to. And so she said to me, I wonder whether you and, you know, you and your wife Jessus supposed to be the ones to take that on. So it was just a real providential set of circumstances. And it's a much longer story, you know, that I can't get into now, but it was just very clear that actually God was calling us back into the city. And not to plant a church from scratch, but actually to take on an existing church, which has had an amazing, you know, 25 years of history, but is now at a bit of a kind of hinge moment where looking to new leadership to take it to, you know, to a new place. So we're really excited. It's a great opportunity. Again, like I said, a church with really great bones and has had done amazing work in Sydney, the possible pioneering church, you know, with a great kind of creative spirit, just done lots of great things in the marketplace and all that kind of thing. And I kind of ready for that for that new chapter. So you were excited. And I'm looking forward to kind of having that dual, you know, have which which you would know very well. Yeah, pasta and certainly pasta first, you know, leading and loving a local congregation here in the city of Sydney, but also still doing the same tech stuff and having that kind of market place. I guess you can call it the kind of dual calling, which I've been really encouraged to see more and more people share that similar passion as well. Pioneering church, that is absolutely perfect for you, Adrian. You have the heart of the technologist, you have the heart of an innovator. So this seems just perfect for you. Now I've talked enough church leaders and enough church planters to know that of course there are challenges with starting a brand new church from scratch, but they're equally challenges to stepping into something that's already been and carrying that mantle forward. So can you talk a little bit about just your sense of it going into this new season things that you're excited about things that maybe you feel like will be a challenge. Yeah, for sure. That's a really great way to put it. I think. Yeah, it's you've got challenges either way, right? Like you said, I think and you know, having planted a church before and being having been part of lots of church plans, I think. You know, it takes a certain type of leader or certain type of team to really thrive in a church plan context, you know, to be really comfortable with a lot of ambiguity, you know, have that ability to kind of, you know, pull people together, a custom vision, all that kind of thing. And obviously, you know, what you don't have is resource, you know, credibility, all that kind of thing can be a real challenge. And then I think with 70 to an existing church, you know, you might have some of those resources, maybe there's a bit of cash in the bank, you've got an existing team, all that kind of thing. But then there's history, you know, and there could be, you know, land mines, you've got to navigate and you've got to steer an existing thing rather than getting and getting something new up and running. And so I think, yeah, there's lots, I mean, there's so many different variables, right? Like I think it depends on the type of leader who's leading and then the type of, you know, leadership team that they're inheriting and all that kind of thing. But I think one of the big things, you know, for for myself, my wife, as we kind of explored this opportunity, whether this was the right fit was, I know that there's something of a pioneer innovator that kind of got us called me to be. And so I had to be really upfront with the church and with the board about that. I said, look, that's this is who I am. And the way that I would love to lead this church is, yes, you want to honor the past and really, you know, preserve a lot of those kind of key values and DNA, which I really love about the church. But we want to bring the church into a whole new era. And, you know, that could mean, you know, that a lot of things actually end up changing, maybe not all at once, because I think as a pastor as well, there's wisdom required. And how do we graciously lead people through change and through the grieving that often has to take place, especially with people that have been a part of the church in many years gone by that have helped so into the church has a currently use. It can be very unkind, you know, to just go, hey, that's all dead now. We're now doing a new thing needed to pass the people through and careful them through that process. But nevertheless, you know, for the church, actually, these are our intentions. We want to move the church forward. We want to break new ground. We want to actually push boundaries. I think when we realize that the church was actually not just open to that, but actually really hungry for that and waiting for that. That's when my wife and I knew actually, yeah, this is a green light. We can lead here in the way that we feel is honoring to God's call in our lives and also honoring to the church and the people there. Yeah, so it's a dance, definitely a bit of a dance. A lot of discernment required. So when do you officially start? Yeah, so at the time of recording was Monday, my time said this, after this coming Sunday, it's when it will be fully and publicly announced to the church and to everyone. And then I'll be officially, my wife and I officially commissioned as the new senior pastors on the 23rd of March. And so that's all kind of officially step into that role. Obviously, I'm kind of on team and on staff ready to study to do some of the kind of background work and getting to know people and all that kind of thing. But 23rd of March is the kind of go live, go live. Well, that's so exciting. So I'm on the team of elders of my local church in Denton, New York City. And we brought on a new lead pastor in the fall of last year. So just a few months ago. So what you're describing from your side, I've experienced from like the church side, like welcoming a new lead pastor and being excited and full of anticipation for a new chapter. And hearing you talk about it from your perspective is, you know, it's just what you said I think is exactly right. I think this church is going to be so blessed to have you and your wife step into this new season. And I'm just so excited for you. I can't wait to follow you and your journey and to follow pioneering church. It sounds like really, really exciting things are ahead. God's doing a new thing in Sydney and in your life and in your church. No, it's very true. And thanks for saying all that as well. And I'm really happy to hear that you guys found it. Apostle because I think last time we spoke, he said, you were those that add out and you guys are looking for someone to set. Yeah. So we were without a lead pastor at our church for two years. Wow. And I mean, the Lord had something in it for all of us. You know, we had to wait for the right person, but for those of us who were in leadership at the church, we all stepped up and more fully into our ministry callings and we had previously in his timing. All things, the Lord was nothing, you know, even in the times of waiting, we can look back and see like like that. That's what he had for us. Yeah, actually, I can testify to that as well. Certainly when I was growing up, I grew up in a kind of Chinese church and probably similar in America where, you know, Chinese churches, often it's the older kind of demographic that they would have say Cantonese or a Mandarin service. And then the kids, we part of the English, you know, English ministry as often grew up in really small, low kind of English congregations. So we never had a paid full-time minister growing up. And, and although, you know, there was challenges associated with that. Like you said, it was just this kind of all-in, like everyone's pitching in. It's the body of Christ in action. And so I really saw that. And then more recently, one of the churches I was a part of, I'll pass this, they had always had this kind of sense from God that they were going to be in the US. And, and it actually won the green card lottery one year. And part of that process is when you win that green card lottery, you've actually got to like exit the country really quickly and then move in and all that kind of thing. So we, same with us, our church had no passes for not quite as long as you guys, but for long enough period. And it also coincided with one of the big lockdowns during the pandemic as well. And so in some ways it was always like, we had all the odds stacked against us. But it was actually one of the strongest and most beautiful seasons for us as a church because it just activated people in a way that would have never happened had the past domain or had we not been in lockdown. So I don't have really, I don't encourage someone today as a listening to this, like maybe your church is not as resource as you would like or your, you know, there's a gap or a vacancy, but actually that's an opportunity, a golden opportunity that God has given to perhaps you or people around you to go, hey, I wonder what's in me, like what are the gifts, what are the latent gifts that God's put in me that actually now as a time to actually dust it off and step into it. Well, that's a beautiful encouragement. Thank you. Can we leave it with one last question? One last question, born and raised in Sydney, it's the mission field for you and for your wife. But if you could be in any other city, which city would it be? You're asking this using the answer. Is that right? I think so. I hope I know the answer. Yeah, because we've spoken a bit about this. So it's your city, New York. So we have, yeah, we've just had this weird, you know, tight New York, where when we were engaged, so we had to friends us as we're here in Sydney and they were actually on their way to New York to plan a church in New York. And when we're engaged, they sat down with us and said, hey, would you guys consider coming along with us? And we were so thrilled by the opportunity to do that. We actually changed our honeymoon plan so that we would end up in New York for our honeymoon and almost double up as like a scouting trip. And we love New York, but it just didn't feel like we were supposed to move there. At that point in time, but then, you know, over the next couple of years, we kept we kept ending up in New York, like, like I said, we already we spent four weeks there doing the city to city intensive. And then we went there with my family and we've just like, my cousin lives in New York, all the moves just had this connection with New York. I would love to be back and who knows maybe one day it will happen. I don't know, but it's, it's an easy answer to your question. It's in New York, sure. Awesome. Awesome. Well, maybe I'll be interviewing you in the next season of your ministry live here in New York City. Who knows? Who knows? Well, yeah, watch this space. Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories Podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey. The Faithly Stories Podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff, and volunteers. The Faithly Digital Platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection, foster collaboration, and promote growth within the church and ministry space. Remember to subscribe, rate, and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you. Stay tuned for more uplifting tales from the Frontlines of Ministry on the Faithly Podcast. Stay bold, stay faithful, and never underestimate the power of your own story.