I Was Angry at God - Karl Chan

I was angry. I was angry at God partially because why? Why did this need to happen? And how could it have happened? And his parents got up, you know, amazing believers as well. They said, you know, he fought the good fight, he finished his race, he did on Earth, all that God had wanted and intended him to do. I grumbled at church, I heard that. That just felt like a cop-out. That felt like, really? Hi, my name is Carl Chan and I work at the Barry Mission helping lead all about external engagement. We recognize that we cannot make a difference in the city together and so I love building connections with people, with organizations, with communities to drive this change. I'm excited to be able to share with you my faithfully story. Welcome to Faithfully Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life. Join us as we delve into their challenges, moments of encouragement and answered prayers. The Faithfully Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithfully, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff, and volunteers. Learn more at Faithfully.co. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired as we unveil the heart of faith through stories from the front lines of ministry on the Faithfully Stories podcast. My first question is, where did you grow up? So where did I grow up? I spent time in Malaysia and Australia. And this is foundational to me because I am a middle child, born in Malaysia. But I have an elder sister and a younger brother, born in Australia. So it's fascinating to live in these two worlds and recognize that we don't choose many things in life. From the same family, we don't even choose where we're born. But somehow that shapes how the world sees us, but doesn't define us. I think this is wrapped into my story of we don't get to choose where we're born, what time or place and history we're born into, what family we're born into. And so a lot of things that we have, we need to recognize that they are gifts, blessings, and we need to figure out how do we stew with that in a way that honors God, rather than be complacent and just believe that we had deserved all these things that we have. What did your parents do? My parents were bivocational, they were in ministry, but they also worked senior corporate roles, executive roles, all throughout. They are pastors now, they planted a church in Australia, they have always been involved in ministry. I guess the reason why I'm asking is it's unusual that the middle child would be born under different state. I mean, in a different country than the first and the third. So I'm just curious as to what made them travel back and forth. There was a lot of back and forth. I think so my dad studied in the UK, my mom studied in Australia, they got married in Australia, but I think work, opportunities, life, family, a myriad of things, I think they were trying to see what it would look like to live in Australia full-time, but that there was a financial crisis in 88 as well. And so that almost solidified that fact. But I definitely feel, and now being in New York City, drawn into these three different worlds and these three different cultures, right? They don't define us, but they shape us, and we bring all that and more to conversations. I totally agree with you with the whole, you don't realize how much of your life is externally influenced. So like COVID was a big thing that I realized that, oh, like if God wants you to move, He'll make you move. She's such an external circumstances, and it's more about like how you would just do those exogenous events. Yeah, they're kind of like God, you know, direct your steps. So true, so true. So that was all set up because I'm fascinated by what you said. You are an eighth generation Christian. I don't even know what that means, because a lot of the people I know, they're usually third generation. So do you know the history of your family's faithful? I know, I know part of it. And that's on my dad's side. On my mom's side, she was the first to ever, you know, find Christ, you know, went to a Christian school in Malaysia. And yeah, it was, it was interesting growing up because I think like any child going to church was a chore, right? You didn't, you didn't want to. I mean, the stories are probably a little bit true. Like you, you can pick out the pastor's kids because they, they, they present well on the outside, but probably staring up trouble on the, the backside as well. So I remember, you know, growing up as a kid, recognizing, right? All right, church was a part of our rhythm. We always did it as a family no matter what. I knew I could probably only lie to get myself out of two a year, right? I would be sick. And, you know, how could I, how could I stay at home? So to me, that was, you know, that was part of that heritage of the faith. It was like, there's, there's no way of getting out of church services. But the, what my dad used to tell me, and my grandparents used to tell me as well. So eight generations ago, great, great, great, however many great grandfather was fighting with his brother in China and was thrown into jail. And it was in jail that he met Christ through a missionary. And from that point on, he decided to leave and went to Malaysia to sell bibles. Yeah, that, I mean, yeah, it's just intriguing to think as well. And like you said, when God wants you to move, you move in that same way. I don't think anybody woke up thinking, you know what, I'm going to leave my hometown and go somewhere else and do this to help spread the gospel. Wait, so he went to Malaysia and then he made your like his wife and then that's when the generations of faith happened. And also, is there like documentation of your family? Because I know for me, like we have this like historical record in Chinese of all of our generations. And I can't reach Chinese. So I have no idea what I mean. But like my dad would say, like, oh, this is like one page of our family history. So in the future, I planned to kind of like decode it, but I'm just curious as to you because I'm just so fascinated because for me, I'm like second gen Christian, like my parents were the first to believe it. And you're lucky that you got two, because I was definitely stuck once. And then like my mom dragged me to church. And I was just like sleeping in the back room. That's a dedicated to you. And I was like, this is not yeah. So for you, yeah, I'm just fascinated with you. The longevity of your history. Yeah. And I think, you know, as a family, there are some records. There is, you know, every family has that resident historian, but it was also this balance of, right? We we saw some of the great harms of colonialization to different countries. And on the same ships, you know, you had the colonizers trying to oppress people and the missionaries get off as well. And so it was this tension of if that didn't happen, would that have been a part of the story? But how many lives were also really damaged, hurt, ruined, big hos of it? And so I mean, that aspect of history has always fascinated me. And there are some records. They they don't sit with with with me personally, but there is there is an old anti there being through treasure troids and information trying to make sure that it isn't lost in that these stories can be told. And so the the path I'm trying to get toward that is you have this long history and you felt this overwhelming, I guess, maybe a burden or just expectation, you know, from your family, because I understand expectation. I was the first born in the United States. That's a male. So I was the first, you're a citizen and like I was just I don't know, like expected to like succeed more than my families, but like I didn't want to go to college at first. And like my parents throw a hissy fit like how they're like, you know, and I just didn't say these things, but I just felt the expectations of not just my parents, but like the generations that it took to come to America. And I felt like I'm squandering it. And I'm like ruining the family name. And I just couldn't deal with it. You know, so like I did not deal with it the best way possible. But for you, like I'm just curious as to like how did that shape you and then how did you wrestle with that to make you who you are today and like have a thriving faith? Yeah, so I think that's, you know, it's it's so much more complex, right? You know, here I am, you know, decades later, really more assured in what I believe, but it wasn't that growing up as well, right? I think when you grow up in the church, you're around people who are radical testimonies of how, you know, they saw God show up at the moment where they were passed out teedering between life and death on some club floor after almost overdosing. You're like, I didn't get to experience that. And so, you know, on the flip side, you know, whatever I did wrong and I did lots wrong, I would always rationalize, but at least I'm not as bad as so-and-so. Or, you know, I didn't do that, right? So people may be partying, doing substances all on that side. I'm definitely deep involved in that, but I'm like, oh, but I I have more, you know, I just, I don't go the full way and, you know, trying to understand that and be like, well, is my testimony even valid because I didn't have such a radical conversion. So to speak, right? Because I think in every way, shape or form, there comes a moment where the Holy Spirit just grips you in a radical way that life does not continue on its same path and its same trajectory. And for me, that happened, you know, later on in life after I had graduated, started working, helping lead and run a biochemical company in Australia. You know, I was still involved in the church. I love Jesus. I was involved in missions. In fact, I was leading missions trips across the country as well. But on a mission trip, oh, I don't know how many years going to spend in 15 plus years ago now. I got word that my cousin passed away from leukemia. My cousin was about the same age as me, and he had been battling it, you know, on and off for about 10 years. And I was just stunned and shocked, you know, in and out of remission. It was, you know, looking good, okay, not looking so good, but in the span of a week, it fled up and he passed away. And so I was at this, yeah, I was, I was commissioned to young school leavers up on the goal coast in Australia and try to reconcile with what am I doing here? I didn't even get to say goodbye. You know, these kids, you know, 17-year-olds that I was trying to minister to present this gospel of hope, love, and that God is with them, for them, that their decisions don't to find them at this point in time. That just became hollow. I was like, they don't even care that I'm here. I don't even care that I'm here, right? That's it. You know, I saw that out for the next three days, went back, and I was just in a little bit of a fog, right? You know, the funeral was that weekend, we went by and I was angry. I was angry at God, partially because like, why? Why did this need to happen? And how could it have happened? And his parents got up, you know, amazing believers as well. They said, you know, he fought the good fight, he finished his race, he did on earth all that God had wanted and intended him to do. You know, I grubbed the church, I heard that. That just felt like a cop out. That felt like, really? If he, if he didn't live a year longer, he couldn't have impacted another life. He couldn't have done something else to benefit the kingdom, let alone just the people around him. So I was like, you know, I'm just here, I'm just, you know, supporting the family, but not wanting to be here anywhere, or just dealing with God. And his sisters got up, he had younger sisters and they, they got up and they said, you know, no matter how much we love Bono, we know God loves Bono more. And that broke, like just those moments, like in their grief, they were able to declare it in between their tears, they said that and it wasn't just a statement, it was a pure simple revelation of God's love. And for me, that is something I hold so dear, to recognize that the amount of pain that I was feeling, the grief, I mean, God feels, God hears, God understands, God knows. And in that way, shape and form, I couldn't outlove God. You know, God's grief was there as well, with me. And you know, I was a mess. I was crying. I, you know, I could not even, I don't even know what happened next, but all I know is I resigned from work and four weeks later, I was working with an NGO compassion, really helping to address the lives of children in poverty, right? I think it's been my mission ever since that point in time to really make sure that no matter who you are, what life throws at you, that you get the chance to experience this tangible love of God. So the irony is on your statement, like really, he couldn't live another year, but like based on everything said, like your life pivoted because of his doubt. And the reason why I bring that up is because I feel like my life pivoted too and my best friend died and he died at like 33. And I remember the exact day and year, like, when I got older than him, because he was like three years older than me. Yeah. And I'm like thoroughly convinced now. And this is something that I just learned this week is that like when, when we love people and we deeply care about them, even though like I had a lot of fights with what? Like, yeah, we were like brothers, like we were like fighting cats and dogs, but like we would always be there together. Be there for each other. I realized like, oh, it hurts to love because the loss of that love inflicts so much pain on your heart, but I feel like that's God's way of like waking me up and waking other people up. And so like I'm thoroughly convinced now, like God determines our life and death. And that, you know, that cliche is actually very true that no life is wasted, even if it's cut short, because in God's eyes, there was a plan behind it. Yeah, 100%. And you know, I think that is one of the beauty of our faith that, you know, with sorrow may last for a night, but joy comes in the morning, right? Through God, through Christ, everything is redeemable in some way, shape or form. You know, it doesn't mean that there are no consequences, but it means somehow God can make every breath that we take redemptive. Yeah. Yeah, and it's interesting, right? I think how death shapes and effects those that continue to go on, right? You have a decision to make, will it affect you for the negative? And you know, at the Barry Mission, if you're not really familiar, we aim to address issues of homelessness, poverty, and all other those, all other of those crises. I mean, we've been doing that for 150 years. And, you know, while there's no real, direct path that leads to homelessness, you know, it's a combination of so many things, a lot of it is because of a loss of community. And for many people that I've met, I know it has been a traumatic incident that has almost started that slide downwards. And they haven't had any support around them to deal with, to reconcile, to make sense of what they're feeling and how they're grieving and how to move through and move through well. Before we get to Bowery, I just wanted to know what your experience was like at compassion because to me, it sounds like you were still in a grieving process. And I'm just curious as to like, were you grieving through it while you were at compassion and did compassion help or like, what were you learning through your time at compassion? Oh yeah, I think it was incredible. I think it was, you know, so I think from that moment on, one of my lives verse has been Jeremiah 9, 23 and 24. And it says, let not in the wise band both in his wisdom, or the strong in his strength, or the rich in his riches, but let he who boasts in this, that they have the understanding to know me, but I am the Lord, their God that excised peace, justice, righteousness, kindness on this earth, for in those I delight. And so that helped ground me as I, you know, it's not about who I am, what I do, how much money I can make, the power and influence that I could wield, but I got to know who God is. And that drove me into that same way with compassion. This, this is what children and every individual needs to know that it's not in who we are, what we can do, but is in who God is and to have that understand. And so it was so wonderful for me to see that in action, right, to go visit a lot of these kids. And to see them experience a tangible aspect of God's love in the gospel, dealing with critical needs right now and in the process being exposed to a spiritual nurturing and a feeding that will transcend all of our physical limitations. You know, that's on that side, but then there's also another side of, you know, the journey that I was on, it became imperative that it's not a journey that I take by myself as well, right? How do I help develop, create advocates who understand that they need to care about something so dear to God's heart and involve and engage their world around it? So, you know, it was a form of me going on my journey and involving and getting other people alongside as well. And I say this, you know, our lives are not meant to be lived in isolation. Our lives are not meant to be lived alone. If we're willing to open up, we can go on this journey together. You know, I didn't have everything figured out, but I knew a little bit more than someone else. And that person has a little bit more than someone else as well. And so we're in it altogether. God was working on my heart, right? You know, when I joined Compassion, I remembered someone who was, you know, who lived breathe eight slept Compassion said, don't worry, you'll be sponsoring your kids soon. Or more than more than one, you'll probably sponsor, you know, a great multitude because you will understand what this is about. And I thought inwardly, like I smiled and nodded outward inwardly, I was like, you know, God, I took the biggest pay cut to work here for this organization. Like, do I need to sponsor a child? Like, isn't that a sacrifice enough? Is that not all I was giving? If I just worked on my other job, I could have sponsored 50, 60 more, not blinked. But that was God working on me as well. Like, I don't stop my resource specifically. Everything that I have still had more so many other people, right? One of the best definitions of poverty was through my time at Compassion. And it says, you know, the opposite of poverty is not wealth. The opposite of poverty is enough. And for me, I had more than enough. You know, I wasn't even just scraping by still. I had more than enough. And that was something that's, you know, once again, foundational. Guides me today. It's how we need to live our lives. We have way more than enough. I mean, right now in New York City, it's probably one of the biggest cities in the world where we over consume because we don't believe we have enough. We're never satisfied with what's around. But we just take a step back. We have way more than we need. Yeah, that's amazing. Um, I realized like, I was struggling with because a lot of times in New York, you can't not pass by a homeless person, right? So I'm always struggling like, do I give every person home like money or not money? And I realized it wasn't about the money that I was trying to greenwash my guilt. And I needed to stop that. And like, you are saying like, oh, yeah, if I made more money, I can give more. But I think what God wants most, and this is something like, maybe I'm projecting out of my own personal sense, but what I see in myself is that like, oh, when I invest my time and energy, that's me like giving my life force into something. And that's something far greater than money that like not only like I got wants, but like helps other people. And like you said, that like is a relational service, you know, rather than just like like giving stuff away. Yeah. And I think even to expound on that further as well, you know, even time energy effort is still just one compartment and component of who we are, right? I think God wants all of us and to decompartmentalize our lives. And we don't, you know, it's very easy to look at things in in lines like money, resource, network, you know, my personal being my time. God doesn't just want pockets of it. He wants us. And I think we need to look at that as well. And you know, it's that same question of, you know, someone on the street, if you see many people, do you give to everyone if you feel compelled to? But if you don't, what are you doing behind the scenes to address structural change as well? I think there's there's many ways to look at it, right? I think the problem is so complex, homelessness, especially in New York City and around our country, that yeah, we can help now because that is the compassionate thing to do. But we must also invest time, resource, if we care about it into shifting structurally, what will happen. So it doesn't continue to cycle, to repeat itself. I feel eight generations of Godly wisdom. It's kind of like, wow, it works. You know, I have such a blessing of having wise parents who ground you in that, right? What is that that that problem teacher child in the ways of the Lord? He will not depart from it. And you know, there are things that are woven into the fabric of who we are from a shaping of our world view, right? We can't abdicate that to anybody else. When was the moment for you? And I'm really asking because of my personal experience of like, oh, my parents are actually like, why is there then I give them credit for it? And I should listen to them more and stuff, I'd even get started. Look, I think that that old adage of, you know, Asian parents just drive you to, you know, almost to a point of breaking and defeat. It was, it was funny because while I can understand aspects of that, I think my parents are always very gracious and loving. And I mean, when they were wrong, they apologized, you know, Asian parents apologizing to their kids. And I'm not talking like now, you know, millennial Gen Z parents doing soft parenting. I'm talking like, baby brewers. I can't, that doesn't happen. And so, you know, yes, are they human? Yes. Are they flawed? Yes. You know, are we all yes? But also, I think it took me a while growing up and seeing how much they just invested into people and families, right? You know, I've seen a lot of families in ministry where parents point to others that the home life is challenging or it suffers. And you know, I really want to shout out and give credit to my parents like they made sure to invest in the family as well because that was a priority. No matter how much they did externally, as well. So how did you go from compassion to worry? Well, once again, I feel it was ordered once again by our Lord who, my wife and I, we definitely wanted to do a stint overseas. You know, I filled that call and filled that tug. And we ended up winning the green card lottery. And so decided, why not? Let's make it happen. We had a few months to make that decision after, you know, going through the interview, getting accepted. And so we resigned from work. My wife's a journalist. I am in this aid and development nonprofit space and we thought, okay, where can we, where can we land? And many people said, why not, why not go to the West Coast? It's very similar to Australia. And we said, why are we leaving all of our networks, all of our community, all of our family friends, just to go to something similar, but not experience what we're experiencing now. And so we were humming and ironing and thought about DC or New York. And we thought, why not, land in New York, book some tickets to see Hamilton and have not left. I mean, this is home now for over how long God has called us to New York. And so connection with the battery is there was one other Australian that worked at the battery mission before me. And we have a mutual friend in Australia. As all Australians do, I think, you know, at six degrees of separation from Kevin Bacon, I think Australians in America maybe one or two degrees. Someone will know someone who knows someone. And, you know, the first month that my wife Ty and I were here, we were just tourists. We were enjoying it. And finally was like, all right, let's see what we can do. Let's try to get some jobs. If we're meant to be here, we'll be here. Otherwise, we'll travel around for a bit and then head back home. And I hadn't reached out to this mutual friend yet. And he actually chased me up and said, have you met with our friends? I said, no. So he goes, I'm going to put you in touch right now. So we, we organized something we're about to catch up. She found out what I did. And I said, look, over here, things are done very differently, right? My whole CV that was four pages now has to be one page. Does this make sense? If I send it, how can you get your eyes through it? And she said, Carl, I think we need you at the Barry Mish. And within a month, I had a job at the Barry Mish and it was created for me to help lead how we engage with all about certain engagement, primarily focused with churches and corporates. And so through the years, it's that's grown. My role is increased. You know, I get to lead the team that does this. And it's interesting for such a legacy historical organization rooted in New York City, they have an immigrant running that aspect to build these ecosystems of partnerships that drive change. And I think it's, it almost is sort of the New York City story, right? It's a diverse world coming together, recognizing that how it is right now is not good enough. What can we do to make it a better place that we want to call home? And rooted in our faith, rooted in a home as Christ would have us develop a home. Yeah, the, I mean, the history of New York is we are a city of immigrants. So even up until the 90s. And I realized like when God does something, it's very quick and swift. It's just in between the, the that happening is like T unknown and like the extended time. So yeah, that's amazing. So what do you do exactly at the boundary? So I'm our chief development officer here at the Barry Mission. So anything externally related, fundraising, our, you know, broader, you know, branding, PR strategy, how we work with individuals, organizations, agency, government. So anyway, that we can partner together, you know, we get to dream up how that is possible. So I don't really know much about the battery mission, except that if you tell me this people and that's the only thing I knew for a long time and also because it's right by some like House in Street. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is the mission for the Barry just to provide or to somehow help them reassembly and like get a job or like find homes and stuff like that? Yeah, I think that's great. I think so. How mission is really twofold, right? So I think we spoke a little bit earlier meeting those critical needs, right? I think there is so much injustice in this world as a believer, as a follow up with Christ, we cannot just sit idly by. And so we have two downtown locations where we are doing that meeting issues of food insecurity, emergency shelter, showers, basic medical clothing. But we want to make sure that that's all done in a way that is not just welcoming, not just inviting, that is dignifying, that is empowering, that provides agency and choice back into your life where you may have felt no voice and choice around what you're doing as well. And it is in those moments of, you know, safety, welcome, where if you're going through anything, you're able to start to believe again, to hope again. And so we have clinical teams, you know, placed all around our services, helping to get to know you, your story, what does it look like? And are there any external supports we can connect you with or are there any internal supports? And to follow on that, we have residential programs where many women are making strides to regain the independence. And for some, it's not even about getting a job, it's about we need to stabilize, you need to find your worth identity and understand that God has a plan and a purpose for you before you can start even thinking about a job, right? And so some people may find us with jobs, may have lost their house in a fire, may be under employed or just, you know, laid off or something happened and maybe you only need to stay with us for a month, three months. And we are that community, we are that opportunity for you to stabilize, so you don't fall any further. But some people find us after years of chronic homelessness, dealing with addiction, substance abuse issues, escaping domestic violence situations, right? Those things, it isn't about now, well, getting you a job, find you housing and you can be on your way. No, we, there's some deep healing and trauma work that needs to be tackled. So you are better when you leave, you know, and then you're connected to a community of alumni, you know, you're no longer isolated and alone. And you know, that's how our mission and dream and everybody, regardless of your current circumstance, that with us through the mission, we can help write what that next chapter is together. That's amazing. I never knew that it seemed like it's a holistic care for the person. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have a, oh, I was going to say, and part of that is the work that we do with adults. We've been running a summer camp for 135 years as well because children eventually grow into adults and around, say, just over a decade ago, we started a children's program out working with households living below the poverty line here in New York City. So we're connected to about, you know, just under 300 families. And we do after school enrichment programs, we, you know, do mentoring leadership development. We still have a summer camp every year out in the polka nose. But the idea and design behind that is once again, children don't choose where they're born into. But if we help children get the first go at life right, we're not going to need to work with them as an adult, right? What we can change is how these children see the circumstances that they're born into. And we can raise up change makers and change agents for their community to bring the change that is needed. How? So like, tell me if I'm wrong. I always had this like imagination that like people volunteered to bow around like Thanksgiving and Christmas, but like the rest of the year, people don't show up, or at least the good ones do. So is your, the people that come and volunteer, is that very consistent throughout the year? Or is there some months you need more? How does that work of volunteers? We are really blessed to be able to get lots of volunteers. I, you know, I would definitely agree with you that around the holiday season, everybody is reaching out to volunteer. But throughout a year, we get about 12,000 unique volunteers through our tours. I mean, we're serving multiple meals every day. We, we serve over a thousand meals a day. We have services going on from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. And we're not, we don't need 50 people to come at once, right? But every two hours a group of 10 will be present, help us do what we need to do. And I'm biased because I work for the mission. But I think it's one of the most beautiful volunteer opportunities because you're not just serving. You are actually now in proximate community with people that you also have a desire to help, but may not have known how. And it's in this proximation being in close community with someone as we interact, we, we see the humanity through the issues, through the circumstance, and we recognize that we're all created in the image of God. We're all not so different. There's just a series of supports that we may have had in our lives that have enabled us not to be in that same situation right now. I mean, we saw, we saw a global pandemic hit and instantly there were people on our lines, in our lines, who would have never dreamed in their lifetime to need to come down to the mission, right? That's how quickly it can change. And I think as a community, as a city, as a society, we understood that more at that time because it affected us as well. But when it does it affect us, we're more easily able to point fingers and say, well, they did something new. It was on there. How do people find out to volunteer just on the website? On the website, barry.org forward slash volunteer, you know, you'll probably see 20 or 30 options over the next few days. Don't be overwhelmed. We have a volunteer team. You know, you can always reach out to as well. You can come in with your church, your corporate, your group, and you know, a lot of people also want to find ways that they can give back and then support through the volunteering and putting some funds and finances behind it as well. They're like, hey, instead of spending all this money going bowling as a team, let's donate that money and go to the mission and serve. I'm like, yes, you know, this is, this is what helps your time, your impact, continue to live beyond just your service as well. I have a couple of more questions. I might edit this part out, but like, yeah, yeah, bluntly, like outside looking is, there's this cognitive dissonance of these wealthy people doing this gala, raising money. And then it's like for homeless people. And so like visually, they're just to start has them. I just want to get your thoughts on that. And no judgment. I'm just saying like it just, it's just, it's just this dichotomy that I see. Absolutely, right? I think there's many ways to look at that. And, you know, here's where we don't know as well, but what is the heart behind the gala as well? I think I could speak for the Barry. In all that we do, we want to make sure that our clients and the community that we serve, we put them at the forefront, right? So even in our language, right, it may not be the best marketing, but we don't say homeless person. We say people experiencing homelessness or our neighbors in need, right? That's the circumstance of it all. And in that same way, is the gala there to serve the needs of the donors? Or is it there because it's going to be creating a community where our donors can gather and be inspired about the work that needs to be done and their role in it? And it's, it's also, you know, if we look at it, right? You know, do we enjoy ourselves? Yes. Does any Christian enjoy themselves? Yes. Do we, do we waste money on things that we know we shouldn't? Yes. You know, sometimes we like to look at charities and point fingers and say, well, you know, that's not done in the right way. You're wasting that in that same way that if someone is asking for money on the street, they're like, oh, I'm going to give this to you, but only spend it on good things. It's like, I don't spend my money on only good things and my role, my salary is funded by donations, right? You know, we don't hold ourselves in the same standard that we hold other people to and those that are sometimes less fortunate. And the harsh reality is when you are experiencing trauma, you don't make logical decisions, like you don't know how to connect the dots that maybe you and I can see externally on as well. And so there needs to be that element of grace there as well. But back to the gala's because I think if done well, they're also a great place to gather people, right? I mean, we're for some people, you know, their life is to, you know, take a vow of poverty and join a monastery. But that is some people and they have been called to that and they will be empowered for that. Some people are supposed to be business leaders and, you know, it's two ways, right? We need to meet business leaders where they are at in a world that they are familiar with and then show them how that part, that world is not enough if our worlds don't combine and merge together. And in that same way, as you calm and present and be present, you know, I've had some senior people who have never cleaned their house, sweep our floors, right? You know, so, you know, but in that same way, right? They're comfortable with that now because they've gotten to know us. You don't just start with that and expect people to be involved and engaged. But look at the Gala. If you're spending more the Gala than you're raising, then I think you need to look at it. We run some Gala's and we raise 10 to 13 times more than we spend. And so it's a great investment as well. No, that was really helpful. I think what I'm getting away is you guys are acting as mediators between those in need and those who have plenty. And sometimes those plenty are fancy people with nice dresses and tuxes and, you know, I think because you guys are so mission oriented and like, like Gala oriented toward like what you're trying to do, I think that's just an amazing thing to bring anywhere and whatever you do. Yeah. And yeah, I love what you said. You know, mediators, yeah, we see ourselves at that bridge, you know, between communities, helping people take the next step to cross over. Some people don't cross completely. They just want to check if the bridge is safe, you know, to extend that metaphor. But so many people, especially in New York, you understand the issue, but you don't know what to do. We want to be that bridge, but to also help empower you to make a difference, right? I think one of the challenges that we face as we're, and this is broader, as more issues and crises come to life, education is a big part. If you don't know the issue or you don't know why this is an issue that we should be involved in, and this is an injustice that we should be addressing, you don't want to get involved. But then if you tell people that there's an issue, but don't provide pathways for people to help, you've created apathy, and now the problem is too complex, and ah, well, it's fatalistic. It is what it is life will go on. And so to really help move people forward, you need to empower them with baby steps and, you know, different things that they can do. So that they get on their journey by themselves and they discover what else can I do, you know, it's so it's not just all driven from art so you and me, but it's an impetus for people to start learning and delving deeper. You know, it's funny, and I'm going to end on this. Well, I have too many questions, but like, I realize life is very simple and easy. People are complicated. Yeah, it's the people on our life. And I think more than it's people, I think we choose to complicate things, right? If there's a decision of simplicity and complexity, let's say, you know, my friend didn't text me back and, you know, you know what, he probably hates me. He's angry at me. It's how insecurities are, whatever it is that complexes, ah, life, right? Have you ever got an email saying, oh, man, they mean like, no, it was a functional email that had a task. It was no emotion into it, but we're also unique. We all have a worldview that has been shaped from birth that a lot of times there isn't a lot of grace in how we respond and react to other people. What are you hoping for, I faithfully? Yeah, I think the beauty of faithfully in doing this is we all need community. And a lot of times like we were joking, people make these complicated, people like to isolate themselves or people like to present a form of themselves that is good for the public. You know, I think we need to strip those layers behind and, you know, if it can create and promote just that raw connection, I think that's important. I think the world means more of it, let alone just people in ministry, but I think in ministry specifically, we don't need that. Oh yeah, tell all your family members. I feel like you have like hundreds of cousins. But you know, it's, it's, it's, it's fascinating. That's, that's my dad's. I don't want my mom's side. You know, there are, you know, uncles and aunties that don't have a faith. I mean, you know, my mom was cut out from her family for a while because she chose to serve God, right? At the wedding, at their wedding, my dad and my mom, they were giving thanks to God. My, my grandfather on my mom's side said, what do you mean, give thanks to God? You should be giving thanks to me and like cut us off from that side of the family for a decade, right? So yes, I think, you know, both sides to draw. I need to get you back on the podcast, because I feel like your family stories are like amazing. Happy to do whatever is needed if, if it helps at all. Last question is, how can we be praying for you and your family? I think, well, topical right now, all of my side of the family is coming over to spend Christmas here. So pray for safety and that we can beat the crowds. We can enjoy all that New York has to offer. And, you know, in, in really beautiful form, they, they're here for vacation, but I've got them serving at the mission as well, just to see my world over here. I think one of the biggest things to pray for is, you know, just that, that distance, a lot of my family is, actually all of my family is back in Australia, right? And so we've had to build family here, you know, friends who are like family, that community, I think community is important to me. But it's, it's not, it's not easy at all times, right? I think there's just that certain element with family family, you know, like no questions asked, you can just collapse and be present. And so thankful that we have such deep friendships here to be able to do that, but that, that is always a prayer, distance is hard. Thanks for all this was great. I learned so much, but, but, but like, I'm fascinated by your family. I kind of want to meet them. Well, look, and you are in the neighborhood, the 23rd of December, we're serving at the mission. You can casually come by. All right, that's it for the YCAS guys, bye. Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories podcast. 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