Life of a Pastor From the Inside - Joshua Gordon

the life of a pastor from the inside like it was very lonely like I don't remember my dad having friends like I think I was probably 21 before I hurt like heard my dad say oh this is my friend like I'd never heard that and so I didn't really see pastors having friends and some having having good connections and I also saw some like really painful examples of like pastors being lightning rots for people and this is I've come to see like this is actually part of what it means to be a pastor as well as like people sometimes they take out their frustration with God on on you as a path sometimes and man that really sucks hey my name is Joshua Gordon and I am editor at the lead pastor.com I am also a lay pastor I'm a dad got so many children well it feels like a lot for me I'm an author and I just love Jesus a whole lot and this is my faithfully story. Welcome to Faithly Stories the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life join us as we delve into their challenges moments of encouragement and answered prayers the Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly an online community committed to empowering church leaders pastors staff and volunteers learn more at Faithly.com get ready to be uplifted and inspired as we unveil the heart of faith through stories from the front lines of ministry on the Faithly Stories podcast. Tell me how your face turned me started okay so I grew up in the church so my grandfather founded a church and then my dad married my mom so and then he became the lead pastor and I'm the oldest son of in our family and so you can kind of imagine the types of things I heard my whole life I'm like oh I'm gonna be a pastor someday and when I was younger I thought that was awesome and then I actually went to Bible College and I don't know exactly why but I burned out pretty hard I got really frustrated with the kind of training I was getting and I mean everyone's stories got tons and twists and twists and turns but eventually I kind of hit a spot where I kind of swore to myself like I I will never work for church I I'm done like I never walked away from Jesus I always loved Jesus but in terms of like what you know practically speaking the body of Christ is gonna look like on earth I was just I'm like I don't think we're doing church right and you know reflecting back on that I think that there's a ton of personal damage that I'd taken that I didn't really recognize it all and so I would say that I I experienced a lot of collateral damage at the hands of church so going through college and then interning at a bunch of different churches I I had a lot of wounds and Jesus took really good care of me really good care of my heart you know over over the span of probably four or five years he brought some like really special people into my life I got some counseling and processed a lot of the difficult stuff that I'd experienced and I'm kind of be in to see and realize that I my calling to be a pastor was something I didn't have to work hard towards in a way there's a moment where I felt like Jesus really kind of whispered into my heart and he's like you know Josh you're gonna be a pastor someday but don't worry about it because when the time comes you'll want it and that was like so freeing to me like okay when it comes along I'll want it like great it's like took so much pressure off of off of me and so I would say that you know I've been a believer in my whole life and but I think my faith really again began to sink kind of deep into the you know the bedrock of who I am probably in my mid-twenties give or take and that's kind of what I would say I began to see like all right my relationship with Jesus intimacy that I experienced some on a daily basis really kind of began to me also began to show fruit I guess because I know that you know God I love Psalm 23 it says goodness and mercy will follow us all the days of our life you know I just imagine that you know God's got two big I love Irish wolf hounds and so there's two big wolf hounds of ones called goodness and one called mercy and kind of been chasing me my whole life and and so yeah that's what I began to experience that a lot more in my mid-twenties and so now I'm 39 today and so I was part of a plant church planting team five years ago and worked on planting a church and then I joined their pastoral staff I'm a lay pastor about three years ago and I started working at the lead pastor.com which is a website specifically devoted to helping pastors and church leaders to streamline and make their day-to-day ministry more efficient so they can spend more money and more energy and more of their time doing the things that pastors get into the ministry to do and yeah so I've been there started early in early this year and so it's been really really cool just to see how God says hand in my life the whole time opening doors closing doors and so yeah it's been it's been quite a journey quite a journey yeah I would say like I love Jews but it's brides a little messy 100% 100% there's a there's a moment in my in my counseling experience where the council I was talking to council but we were talking like parenting and stuff and I was like I just struggled so much with the thought that you know in the same way that I got a lot of damage I think all of us do like in our family of origin and and I was like I just don't want to cause pain for my kids and the council was like you know Josh like think like who's the best parent in the whole universe just like well God is he's like how are his kids doing and I was like that's a great point you know like I I don't have to be the perfect dad like I could be the perfect dad and my kids still can be screwed up messed up and so I have another great mentor of mine is a guy named Frank Freemies if he was a pastor for a bunch of years in Louisiana and I'm remember he he said to me one time was like you know I love the church I love the church enough like that I'll fight for the church even that means sometimes I have to fight the church and I've kind of seen that even in my time as as a as a lay pastor to there's times when loving someone requires being willing to step into conflict with them and that's not really an easy thing to do ever especially for me like I thrive on positive reinforcement I love it when people like me and so being willing to step into a place where someone might feel criticized I just hate it but sometimes that's you know love requires that sometimes so it can be tough yeah the strongest family's fight and that's why forgiveness and reconciliation such a amazing principle right yeah I think so for sure for sure so where was all this where did your grandfather settle and your parents meet yeah so my grandfather was born in the Netherlands and then he emigrated when he was 19 and so he planted a church right around little town well times little town called Gualfontario in Canada and so it was about an hour and a half from Toronto and my dad grew up in that same area and then my mom so my grandfather's daughter so they met I think my dad was like 14 or 15 and so my grandfather actually led my dad to Jesus and then was a big part of his own his faith journey as well and so that's where my mom and dad met and that's that was a church that I grew up in and then when I was 19 I wanted it away from home experience real bad so I kind of I felt like a kind of a call to ministry and so I made a list of all the Bible this is a terrible way to make decisions by the way but like I made a list of all the Bible colleges in Canada and like picked the most interesting names and then it's like okay which ones are out of province and so I narrowed it down to Rocky Mountain College in Calgary and then I think there's like Bethany Bible College I think is what if I remember correctly it's a long time ago now but that in on the east coast and so I ended up flying out to Calgary Alberta and to check the school out and there are some super cute girls there and so that made my decision for me and again it's like not like the the holiest or most spiritual way of making decisions but at the same time like God worked in my life you worked my heart as a great school that I I really enjoyed my time at Rocky and ironically I did meet my wife there and so she my parents were delighted when they found out she's actually from Ontario where I from as well and so yeah so it's it was pretty pretty awesome so yeah isn't it funny that God uses all of our foolish decisions they were like so sure but like oh this is the way and then yeah if you said if you never went there you wouldn't have met your wife so there's all these contingencies that like kind of magically work out you know yeah a hundred percent and I think that's one of the things for me too that's like one of those factors in my life that has brought me a ton of peace is knowing that like even if I'm afraid of making the wrong choice like God will still use it and he still can use it right and so that's one of those things where like I think there's so much more safety in our relationship with Jesus than most of us give it credit for the sense that like God knows us and he loves us and he accepts us like so much like he's not surprised by anything that we you know anything we do he's not surprised by it and I think that he's totally happy very happy to work with the foibles of how Josh Gordon's brain works or how Danny's brain works or whatever even though silly little things like so I I think that Romans 828 the all things work together for the good of those who love God and are called the Kundras were like that's like a great safety net for my life like every every once in a while I'm like okay I don't know what to do with this about this decision and I'm like well if I just sort of kind of take the pressure off myself and know that God will use anything to you know for my good for my benefit that just takes pressure off makes my life a little little simpler you know if that makes sense I don't what do you think about that yeah I mean as long as it's not like a defined sin and some people take it too far with the logical conclusion of that's why to say no it's like in the Bible there's there's clear things of like yeah the intent of the heart yes if you're just like out of all the good and gray options just pick one cuz yeah those actions lead to more action and I'm just kind of like how life works it's like yeah like a venn diagram of events yeah life is just a venn diagram man like we're saying like a hundred percent so what is some of the struggles that you're feeling in Bible college cuz for me like when I was in undergrad I like joined like a Christian club in one not and then that first year I was like man these are just hypocrites and like looking back like we're all 18 and 19 so like who knows anything right but like as a freshman like seniors like all four-year difference yeah but that's why like the following year I was like okay I'm gonna abandon the Christian club and just party with my roommates and that was a lot of fun yeah but I realize that they're all the same ones just saying they're like I'm trusting Jesus and the ones not but you know for you what was the struggle in Bible college that's a great question I've thought about this a bit um I think if I'm really not myself I think part of it was sort of like what you were kind of alluding to that sort of a sense of you know I'm like you know 19 or 20 and so I don't know like 19 or 20 year olds just have this perfectly clear understanding of how the world works and so like I had that for sure and like and so seeing such a disparity between what I thought had should happen and then just the realities of what was actually out there like it just kind of graded on me too I think that something else that I really wrestled with as well was I think it didn't quite understand I think there's probably two things I don't think I quite had a clear understanding of what it meant to be a pastor and because all the examples of pastors that I've had somebody dad was a pastor for you know from my 14 14 or 15 he became the lead pastor of the church I was at and then my grandfather's pastor for my whole life before that and I just saw it you know seeing the life of a pastor from the inside like it was very lonely like I don't remember my dad having friends like I think I was probably 21 before I heard like heard my dad say oh this is my friend like I'd never heard that and so I didn't really see pastors having friends and seeing having having good connections and I also saw some like really painful examples of like pastors being lightning rods for people and this is I've succumbed to see like this is actually part of what it means to be a pastor as well like people sometimes they take out their frustration with God on on you as a path sometimes and man that really sucks especially when you know like seeing my dad like I don't want to go into many specific but seeing some of the stuff that my dads had to experience and I actually when I was in my Bible college years my my mom and dad both went through like incredibly difficult time because of like a deep betrayal that happened and a large part it was because just who like they were just the like the leaders of the church and so watching that you know like like I don't want to like I don't want to experience that at all and I don't think at the time I realized how big of an impact that had on me in the moment but yeah there was a I experienced a real frustration also through some of the church like there were two churches specifically that I interned at and in both of those I I can see now I really experienced mismanagement that's what it was and just in terms of like just a lack of understanding of what I needed like as an intern I felt like it kind of given a task and kind of put in the corner and I didn't feel like I had support and you know some of that's probably due to my own you know lack of ability to communicate my needs my lack of understanding of my needs and that type of thing but I think that I was kind of immersed into the yeah I think mismanagement keeps coming back to my mind is like I think I was mismanaged and so that's really formed my heart now in the sense that I think God's God's used that he's redeemed that to help me to see the importance of importance and the value of each person you know at New Life Fellowship that's a church that I'm pastoring at and each individual is they have a special sacred you know value and worth you know I was just actually chatting with my dad earlier today and just reminded of this great truth like God's most precious resource is most sacred resource is people you know it's not money it's not time all those things you know that as pastors you always feel like you don't have enough of like no it's people that's God's most sacred resource and so think that lessons really burned into me you know in college and so I would say like probably the other thing is I in college I looked at the world and I saw you know I think I'd read some stats the time it said you know you know the next 20 or 30 years like 70 to 80% of people in the world will live in an urban center a major urban center and I looked at the training I was receiving and I felt like I was just being trained to be a pastor at some tiny little rural church and that didn't seem cool to me that didn't seem flashly enough wasn't sexy enough and so I think there's some discord there as well and you know now looking back I feel a little bit ashamed or not shame I feel like okay I just see my lack of understanding in that kind of perspective and realizing there's there's a real special honor that comes with you know walking with somebody over the long term you know for 10 15 years and seeing somebody helping them you know with their understanding of who Jesus is and helping them to you know just kind of walking them with them along that journey there's a real special honor to that that is way more important than you know as fun as church metrics are as great as to see our numbers are growing and you know they're monies and like all that's really wonderful but the point is like we're as pastors our number one job is making disciples right and so there's a whole bunch of other stuff that comes along with that but I think I didn't quite understand that in my in my college years which led to a lot of the you know as I'm saying this Mike I'm realizing you know my my my burnout was probably my own fault there's something about the mind and how we construct like a version of reality based on our perception and a lot of that is just expectations and you know the construction is like a dirty word sometimes in the church but actually I don't think people are deconstructing their faith I think they're deconstructing the expectations they had about their faith and so like that's the beauty of God is like oh all the little stuff that you think the life you want it's like poof and then he gives you the life and that's why what I've learned this year actually after 41 years so I'm a late bloomer too is a late bloopers love it be faithful where you are yeah to the day you know and God moves us you know also like I lived in Atlanta I was in Philly and like when I was in college I went to Binghamton but I realized like like he will make my life situations great or terrible so that I'll have to leave and go somewhere else but wherever I am as long as I'm around his people and witnessing like why I do what I do according to like who he is in his word but that's enough and I leave the rest of him so my life has been simplified in that way you know oh yeah 100% it gets and I think that's one of the things that the that the world around us doesn't get like and that's like a huge disconnect I think where you know it's there's a there's this cool factor to being busy or to having like oh I've got all these different things going on like I've had like a biohacking and like all this and like sounds like is legitimately kind of interesting stuff and kind of cool stuff but at the end of the day like I don't think that we as humans were designed to thrive well in that kind of a scenario in that kind of situation now the reality is we're kind of plunked into that culture and like I wish I could change culture but I can't I have control over my own mind and my own thoughts you know I definitely don't have control of my own I'm a fieldings I'm a big feel my feelings are big so being able to like sort through my own emotions and like okay what's going on here and like and but it always comes back to simplicity right I was thinking about you know God took the profit of Elijah or Lysha I was going to make stuff but and saying you know I'm gonna show you myself right and it was it wasn't in the huge impressive fire that blew through it wasn't really like the massive all-encompassing storm like it was like the still small voice and that's what I'm realizing is like God speaks in a still small voice I wish it was you know like I don't know if you grew up watching the Hannah Barbarra movies right and it's like every time somebody prayed and God spoke there's always a beam of light that came down I was like why is I need a beam of light come on like like that's not how it happens right like it's it's just in the still small voice and that's one thing I'm realizing too as a fellow late bloomer is that God's leading I think sometimes I think it's just me because like God speaks in my mind through our minds right and so and he speaks through a lot of different ways but I think that a lot of times he's he leads through my own like desires and you know I caveat that in the sense like what you're saying there's like the obviously like if we've been made one with Christ like like I think it's in Roman says what we have we like you know our hearts have been made new then we can trust our our own hearts and but being able to sense God's leading like that's a skill takes time it takes practice to risk getting it wrong you know and that's what we are with at Romans 828 such a wonderful safety net right the other thing is too is God where God leads there's peace and so for me following God's peace in my life and again it's it's it's there's simple things right and I think that our lives can be simple and not easy simple and easy not the same thing I wish they were they're not and so I think that's the kind of the life that God wants for me is one where I'm able to relax in him regardless of the circumstances I'm able to you know experience peace and joy and you know the the fruits of the spirit regardless of the types of circumstances I find myself in and that's you know if you really think about that like you know how many people do you know who you could say oh yeah that's a really peaceful person a really joyful person like like but that's that's what a life that's the results of a life live trusting Jesus and risking risking with Jesus you know that's that makes sense or yeah perfectly like one thing from the previous things you said is I no longer say like be perfect like I'm not perfect and people say I'm not perfect I'm not Jesus but like my counter argument is that you have the spirit you have the same spirit so you want right I don't think the Christian life is by being perfect like I think it's accepting the fact that we're special right because people are not perfect he's perfecting us but yeah we are special and throughout all the mess it's this life of constantly like getting hurt because when you love something it's you're you're you're citing out for getting a heart destroy right and saying like okay it's okay I'm gonna get through this but yeah it's also realizing without the mistakes and like startup life teaches you this like like real fast like you have to make so many little mistakes not big mistakes little mistakes and it'll teach you and guide you and I think that's what I've been learning that like God really only cares about faith like he's teaching us how to trust him yeah and trust ourselves in the way we try to obey right so even if we obey imperfectly it's like okay let me go back to the word because one thing that's simplified my life is understanding everything in scripture and language their patterns like God is teaching us the pattern of his character the pattern of our relationship to him and so when we see that reflected in the world and with each other that's when I'm like my emotions aren't conforming or like it feels wrong but he's telling me to do it so one example is like like I've shared on this podcast like living with my mom has been the best and worst thing like she's an amazing she was an amazing mom right and I got older and she keeps treating me like I'm 12 and that doesn't work for me and you work like it but he worked out a lot of anger issues or triggered because in my mind if you cross my personal boundary I have the reason or justification to lash out me anger at you and God's like no the only boundary you have is your body so as long as they don't touch me whatever they say or do like change all my stuff that's fine I'm like okay and especially because she's my mom so I can't like you talked about you know feeling ashamed like I feel ashamed about that and I got over that shame like thank you for the cross yeah yeah yeah a lot of it I think it really is like understanding okay everything in my life I kind of have to be selfish in that way like it's about me to learn how to trust the Lord with my thoughts and my emotions and do what he says because some way somehow doing it the way he wrote out right living full abundant life because I think that's another thing we don't talk about in church is that like Jesus talks about being fully alive right and in the beginning like of my Christian walk like you think Jesus is crazy because you're like give up everything is like what seeking for the kingdom like what yeah and I realized once you understand everything Jesus talking about and how everything is just relational and like all the success and all the wealth and all the kingdom is built by people yeah and people love you and trust you they'll do anything you want in an evil way it can be manipulative but in a loving way it's like oh let's do this together kind of unity yeah it makes so much sense of like oh okay like everything I want to accomplish it involves people and you know what people takes trust in yeah yeah so yeah yeah I think you're really on something there and I mean I think it goes back to something you said so so well which is like the Christian life is about perfection right it's about trust and it's interesting because if you look at the old testament like the old agreement the old covenant that God made with humanity is like hey here here are the conditions in which you and I can be okay with each other and it was all about obedience like first and foremost per performance your behavior and then you have the system of sacrifice which kind of covers up your screw ups right and then what the awesome thing about Jesus he's like no no no I'm gonna take care of that so that way you know when you are in Christ you've accepted the gift of salvation like not only are you like freed from freed from sin passed in future sin but you've also are made new right and so that means that the connection between me and Jesus can be is like solidified and and so that means that I no longer have to judge my behavior by do you know I hit this standard of perfection or performance or behavior it's like no like the conditions of success now are did I trust Jesus and and that interesting thing with that is like trust is just so dependent on relationship like I it's interesting like you know you and I we've known each other now for like I don't 30 minutes or so give or take right and so trusting you is like okay he says gonna email me so is it gonna email me right whereas like the type of conversations I have with my wife who I've known for like 20 issues like that what like what trust looks like for Josh and Sarah Gordon is actually it looks way different and like like what trust looks like is me different for each individual person and so the relationship of trust that I have with Jesus and that we you have with Jesus is going to look a little bit different for each person and so why one of the things I believe and have come to observe myself is that I think that as humans all of us have we kind of like a similar operating system similar drives that kind of like within us like big I kind of think it was like okay big questions that we look for answers to like am I valuable right like am I am I worthy of love you know and there's tons of those those types of questions I think that drive us a lot and I think that shame is often a byproduct of having that answer inside being like dependent on my behavior not on my standing with Jesus and so what I've seen is that you know if like shame is measured it turns like the amount of shame that I experienced like the more that I'm learning what it looks like for me to trust Jesus the more I actually am risking that trust with Jesus like the less and less shame I'm experiencing on a day-to-day basis now again I'm a very I'm 10 to be an emotional person and so I feel a lot of feelings and so shame is something that I do battle with consistently and put the answer to my shame is not just you know like for okay for here's a here's an example maybe it's TMI if it's TMI you just scrub this recording right but I love TMI perfect perfect it's like I've struggled with body image issues for much of my life right and so but what I can say is that over time as like Jesus has led me through various healing experiences and the weird thing is is that very often healing experiences are on the are on the heels are like just come out come after like a really painful thing where something somebody says something that just like oh boy like it just hurts and it cuts deep for whatever reason and I'm like I'm just like suddenly rock the shame out of nowhere and I I mean we all know what shame feels like we all know the headspace it can put you in and I'm like left like Jesus is this like I don't even know what to say right now like I'm just like feeling horrible and and often like what he what he prompts me to do what he invites me to do is like okay face the actual pain like what's the actual shame I'm feeling with like okay like I'm gonna be rejected like close friends are gonna reject me because I'm too fat or because or or I don't look good enough or because whatever right and and like it's one thing to say that out loud but like it's nothing like actually want like feel like you might believe that and then so facing that pain and facing the source of that shame and then allowing Jesus to come in and meet that lie with truth like that is the thing that begins to actually knit that wound back together and so that's the thing like people the other things like the word trust like it's it's almost a Christian buzzword almost like like for me the word gamble or the word risk is like sort of what trust means to me like Jesus is saying hey like this is what's true about you actually right like it'll kind of on the body image thing like I will like spend a lot of time like making sure that my clothes match and that I look cool or whatever whatever cool means in my mind anyway but like and but Jesus like trusting Jesus for me means what if people don't like what you look like like are you okay with yourself then right and then choosing to go out into the world even if I don't feel like I look great like it's a it's also like gambling on the fact that Jesus will be enough for me in the moment and words like I don't know for sure right it's like is he gonna be there is it gonna be like and let yeah anyway so that's a whole I mean we could talk for I could talk for a long time about my struggles in that area but that's one of those things man where like the Christian life is so much easier I think than a lot of people experience from the same time it's so much harder because we love to be in control of ourselves and then to just kind of bring that in submission and align with who Jesus says we are I could be really hard sometimes yeah it's simple but hard right not easy right absolutely did you watch inside out to you know I have it yet I haven't you should because someone needs to do or like a seminary needs to do like an entire theology of it because at the core it's about the self-belief the identity that she built up and how that gets reconstructed yeah right and I was like that movie convinced me I don't need to do a book I don't need to do pie cat I don't need to do anything if you're just paying attention to the climate of the human condition yeah and like God is saying like guys hey everything you believe about yourself is here yeah and let me tell you something yeah everything we see like I joke all the time like we're in the matrix because like everything we see as a man made yeah you really think about it we're constantly surrounded by the things like we create it and we construct it to keep us safe and yada yada like that's what civilization is right but I think it like this sensitizes us from like nature and like like what God is doing in the universe right and so like whenever you see those like videos on Instagram where they zoom out to the universe yeah zoom in to the quantum level yeah you feel insignificant and I feel like we've lost a sense of like I see I need to reconstruct a reality that like what God is and what he's doing yeah and then see okay what everyone else is doing so long story short I think everyone is whoever's watching the podcast watch inside out to I think it'll make so much more sense to you at the core what Jesus is saying it's a belief yeah we are believing creatures and we need someone to say this is the belief you need in reality so that you are sure of yourself and honest with yourself and comfortable with yourself 100 percent I think I think that what Christianity is all about is the recognition that you know you can build your self-concept around whatever you want and ultimately the only thing that won't fail you is Jesus at the end of the day right and you think about there I mean that's all through the New Testament at all through it you know I think about the you know the house in the rock versus the house in the sand you know you might find sand that's a little more sturdy than other sand you know but at the end of the day like Jesus is the only one that won't ever let you down and that doesn't mean you won't think you might let you do sometimes I think one of the hardest things for me has been admitting myself where God didn't meet my expectations of how he should act I think that's what you get come comes down to the idea of like this zooming out and the zooming in and feeling insignificant and like it's like reminds me like I have this so like one of my favorite animals is the humpback whale and it's just like I can't really talk like describe really why I just love the humpback whale I just do like but and like my bucket list is to swim with the whale someday like I really want to do that and the I think one of the reasons though is just like the huge the enormous power that those creatures have and just like the amount of speed that you have to have to move through the ocean and then to just come up out of like to breach then to slam down in the water like like those really really power like there's so much power that you have to have and I think one of the things I love about it is like it dwarfs me and I think that's what you know if I was to point out I think a weakness of in the current Christian climate is that it's so much focused on what Jesus can do for me on a personal level and it's beautiful it's wonderful it's special it's sacred but the thing that we forget is like God's power and his majesty it's so huge and I think that's I think it's like part of us as humans we need to be dwarfed to need to be reminded of like the real scale of things right like I was thinking about oh I just read this really recently like you know if you if you slam your thumb with your hammer your whole world becomes your thumb like in that moment right and like and so so much was lived with so much pain and so our whole world becomes a pain we experienced and Jesus wants to come and heal that and it's like I like what you said like life is about like finding everything I need in Christ but then that's not even the end of it the next step is is like so that way I can love others and I can actually partake with Jesus in the healing and loving of people around me and becoming like and finding a beautiful fulfillment in being a threat in the tapestry right it's like the like the reality is like God loves me so it's all about me in a way for the purpose of becoming all about everyone else right and I think that we have to follow that progression though because if you don't really understand deeply on a cellular level how how loved you are by Jesus and you try to skip over that and just try to make it all about loving other people then you're operating out of a deficit like you're operating out of a place you know it's like trying to start a car using a double a battery it's like no like you've got to make sure you've got a healthy battery you know it's like everything we need is in guy and I think in Peter first Peter I think it talks about we've been given everything we need for life and godliness like there's nothing that's missing but we have to kind of understand how like Jesus heals us at our heart level and fills us in like fill with his love that way he can overflow with other people we're not supposed to try and manufacture it right and so anyway I feel like you talk forever about that but I have a spicy take of pain now okay bring it on let's do this I think pain is contextual I think for me I've learned yeah pain and suffering sucked but now I no longer avoid the pain it's not like I go looking for pain either so don't get me wrong but that's good I embrace it because I no longer or I'm trying no longer to react in a negative sense and it just let it happen and the thing for me is that when I feel pain or like when I feel like someone is like hurting me like my default is to cry I realize crying is actually the superpower because after you cry you get cathartic because I can quickly come out of that cryer and then like it's like tears of joy of like oh I get to taste some of Christ's suffering I know it's like this reverse psychology but I realize pain needs a context and too often we put it in a negative context but when you put it in a really positive context of like oh I no longer afraid of pain and when it comes it quickly reminds me of the the the shared pain and suffering of Christ and it needs to be closer to him and like this is a joke I tell my friends like oh I'm gonna be in heaven and ask him oh what did you do about this and like that or like if I got lashes like oh remember when they hit you here like yeah talk about like your shared experience yeah and I was like okay it's not too bad yeah honestly there's so there's two things that comes to my mind right away so the first one is that there's only one person that has the actual right to invite me to redeem the pain only one person that's Jesus because he is experienced he has experienced the full breadth of humanity like as a for me as a pastor I have a bit of a background counseling as well and so I do a good amount of like counseling work walking with people through their pain and I've experienced my own pain right but like but I've experienced it just like this tiny narrow slice of the whole pain horizon about this understand one slice and I'll be overlapping with yours or someone else's but it's still my own but Jesus is the only one who truly understands like the breadth of of human pain and suffering and so he's the only one who has the right to say will you face the pain with me right he's the only one who does so that's so to me that's a really powerful thing so that's the that's the first thing the other kind of thing going back to what you're saying like I think there's this kind of dark underbelly like heresy thing of like Christian it like Christians shouldn't suffer or suffering isn't from God and I would say that there's probably an ask there's definitely an asterisk on that I I wouldn't want to claim myself to understand human suffering because that's just like that's I don't know if any person really can but what I do believe is that there is an honor and a nobility to suffering well and I think what you're saying about like suffering well was like understand okay what I'm going through it's part of the human condition and it's okay to cry it's okay to have that pain it's okay to live in that pain and it's hard it's horrible but understand like like Jesus is with me and there's a special I think there's a special experience with Christ that you can't get any other way right like I think it's an Isaiah talk God talks about how he's like he hides treasures for us in the darkness you know he hides his treasures in the darkness and I think like there's some things like some realities spiritual realities that we can't really get on the other way except through suffering well and I would make that distinction because I think there's a ton of people that don't suffer well and they become bitter and they become resentful and all in all of those things I think for those who suffer well there's like a softness to them you know that you experienced and like the side of that is like Hebrews 11 right like people call it like the Hall of Faith like the Hall of Fame or whatever and it's wonderful to read if you stop like halfway through like I think it's like verse 34 or 35 somewhere in there stop halfway through because it gets really bad after that where it's like you know it talks about you know Moses and Abraham Samson like all these people who like by faith did this and that the other thing and then it keeps going on it talks about there are those who like wandered the earth without a home like living in the wilderness you know there are some who were eaten killed by wild animals there's some who were saw in half like and like those who did not see the fulfillment of the promise in this life and this is those of whom this earth is not worthy and I think about that and I kind of start feeling emotional because I think there's such there's such a beautiful truth that our God is the one who redeems but we also don't always have a guarantee that we're gonna see that redemption in this life but it will be made right it might be made right when we step into eternity but man that's where like I just I feel so out of my depth sometimes you know like meeting with people and talking them through what they're going through and like working to understand and praying for them it's like God I don't know like I can't imagine you know like and like I've been through some hard things and my my family has been sort of hearts them hard things and like I just yeah like yeah someone really really close to me was was abused as a child like sexually abused and my own my own struggles to like make sense of that and like like is this like my God will allow that like and I mean I think one of most uncutful verses in the Bible for me is in excess talking when Moses is talking to God you know God should live in the burning bush and then God says to Moses he says like or Moses is saying oh I'm not like I'm not good speaking like don't send me like I kind of stutter or whatever and then God says to Moses like am I not the one who makes the lame lame like and the dumb dumb like ever reading that and I was like God is like taking responsibility for that for like birth defects and like that's really uncomfortable to me and I think that's kind of like ties in a little bit the idea of like God is so much bigger and more power he sees the big picture in way that I just can't right and his plan for somebody else is different than his plan for me and it's some of the hardest questions are like God how do you how can you be okay with what's happening there and I don't know like the things that God's whisper to me are like like I know the pain they're experiencing and like it kind of goes back like he's the only one who actually has the right to ask someone will you face his pain like he's only because he did it right and so and he promises to be with us and to provide all that we need it but it's deep it's like it's like a deep deep question hard hard questions and I think for me as a pastor my life got a whole lot easier when I realized like I don't necessarily have to have the answers to those questions for people because like I think a lot of times we as pastors or men and people in church ministry we we have this pressure that we have to be able to make it better for somebody but again coming back to where we're talking before like trusting in Jesus means it's in my intimacy with him and like these are questions that I can offer some thoughts to for somebody if they're going through but the end of the day it's like Jesus is going to speak to them in their heart and the way that they need to hear and so it's like how can I help other people to hear God's voice how can I point God's voice out a little more clearly and that kind of thing so yeah deep stuff man yeah the only reason I brought it up is because I think there's this misunderstanding at least in my perspective that you know being healed from trauma and pain means you're gonna be pain-free yeah that's not the case you know it might take years for you to emotionally detach but I realized that's also a superpower when I'm able to tap into those painful memories and cry with those people who went through similar experiences you know yeah because now we have this shared pain you know and so I just want like everyone to know like pain is actually good if used for the right purpose and I think that's where God is wise yeah hundred percent I love the thought of God being like a physiotherapist like I dislocated my shoulder like a bunch of years ago and boy that hurt and then what hurt almost as much was a physiotherapy after and it was like you know for people who've gone through physics if you had a surgery or something like that like you don't want to move your arm the way that fits the therapist is telling you to move your arm like it hurts but like we also like in the recovery process like you know if we've had our hearts heart deep heart surgery as believers and like discipleship is sort of like spiritual physio where it's like okay sometimes God's gonna lead into things that really hurt and are really painful but like when you choose to embrace that as as as much as we can like honestly embrace it then the pain is not a waste right and like I do think that there is that people do suffer needlessly sometimes because they're like I know I for sure have in a sense that like before my current job like I had my I had my own business for 13 years and the last I my clients were speakers so COVID came and just kicked a crap out of my business bed like and so I really struggled after things started opening up again I kind of struggled to like rebuild back where it's from because my clients weren't spending like they used like the world changed for me and I really held on to my sense of identity of I'm a business owner I'm an entrepreneur like it's like I'm not gonna quit like I'm not gonna like any thought that I should maybe stop or reevaluate like I just rejected out of hand and as a result of that I went through probably a year and a half extra of significant financial pressure and financial stress and deep like like deep personal challenges and struggles and but again like we were saying at the top of the top of our interview like God worked with me on that he's like you ran a little you ran into that wall really hard a bunch of times like you didn't have to but I'm gonna use that and like and so now I'm a little the I'm a little softer inside and like I have a more understanding for people and a bit more compassion and and he's provided like I mean I like I feel I'm so fulfilled with my job like like my my employers like a black white zebra their media company and they they're all the sites like they they're only portfolio of like a 17 or 18 different websites and they're all about helping people to win at work and so I was hired to be the editor of the lead pastor dot com and like and I like I didn't know that that existed like my job before I did like book editing and stuff like that and like obviously I have a huge heart for the church and the heart for pastoring and like like there's like again the overlapping then diagram like I like God promised to provide and he did and he made it way better than he had to didn't like and that's the day like you move for my day I'm like man like like God didn't have to give me a life that's so wonderful and fulfilling as it is but he did you know like and so I like I just live in gratefulness you know and especially looking at the decisions that I've made like I don't feel like I deserve any of the things that you know that I get to enjoy today and but it's a gift from him and so I'm just super thankful and super grateful and yeah yeah I'm in a simple spot like I have zero reason to ever complain about anything that's my life is like I can usually find reasons to complain no no but compare again I'm relative compared to how my life has been like I'm in the best place in my life and I know 10 years from now I'm gonna be like that wasn't that great because it'll be better you know yeah 100% internally it's I'm not seeing my external circumstances so yeah I'm just saying internally yeah I've just yeah I have so much peace of joy so what can you tell us a little bit about the pastor what was it the lead pastor dot com the lead pastor dot com like how do you connect with them what's that about yeah so yeah so lead pastor dot com as I said it's it's it's part of a portfolio of websites it's owned by black and white zebra which is a media company based out of Vancouver and so each of the different sites is kind of based around a specific career and so it's resources like web you know web page articles you know ebooks you know communities you know reason all sorts of reasons to kind of really help a person really thrive and flourish to do work really well and do enjoy their work really well in a specific career so lead pastor dot com was started in 2019 and I was hired in end of February of this year 2024 to kind of take it and move bring it up to the next level so the site specific like the vision that I have for it my real heart for it is obviously for pastors and for church leaders because at the end of the day I mean I don't know of any pastors that got into ministry because they love generating church finance reports you know or like setting up volunteer schedules like that's like the bang for a lot of the pastor I know like that's the bang of their existence like those admin managerial type things now thing is it's so you can't really separate that from the role of being a pastor like it's part of it it's just it just for me at least and for pastors like me it can be just draining right and so the lead pastor dot com the vision I have for it is to make doing that stuff as simple and straightforward as possible you know so with software information all that stuff you know so that way you've got the energy and you've got the vision and the space in your mind and in your you know more funds etc to be able to put towards the reasons that we got into ministry in the first place like discipleship and like study and then preaching and prayer all that stuff and so my goal is is that everything on the lead pastor dot com every article that's that we post and published is gonna be it's gonna help pastors to do that do that well you know to advance the kingdom and so hard at work like evaluating all the articles that are on the site and like upgrading them improving them and working on developing the network of you know pastors and contributors to the lead pastor dot com and like making like you know identifying you know season veteran pastors who've been through it you know kind of the saying hey like give me your wisdom like give me your like help me to see how to do things better you know and wanted to make sure that every article on the site is something that's gonna be you know interesting and you know fun to read I'm I'll say I'm a fun person I don't know I feel like I'm fun maybe I'm not I don't know but like I kind of you know I have a you know certain sense of humor and like I love writing and so I wanted to make sure that that personality kind of comes through on the site so it's not super dry and super boring even though honestly like articles about you know how to structure your church financial calendar like that's not necessarily a super exciting content but I want to make it as interesting and like you know engaging as as I possibly can right to make it easier for pastors to do that well and so yeah so that's kind of the the guts of of the lead pastor dot com and I I feel honored and privileged that I get get to do that and I take it super seriously in the sense that hey like there's a lot there's a lot of pastors and a lot of churches that can really use help you know and so the fact that I get to do that and I get to be in a position to make that happen for for pastors and churches all over the US and Canada like to me that's I I'm humbled and I love it you know it's a good yeah I was I make that make sense that clear yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so two questions what are you hoping for a faithly okay so faithly one of the things I really like about faithly is that is a great way to see how many other people are out there where their faith is a big part of their career and so I mean so I met God to me at Alicia and so she's actually contributed an article to lead pastor dot com I hope she's able to contribute more and one of the things that you know that article talked about is how you know for pastors like LinkedIn is something that sort of the default like that's that that's the place to connect with other people on a professional level but LinkedIn hasn't worked for me at all and on that on that space and so when I set up my faithly profile in the discover tab like man there's like so many other people here who love Jesus and that's that's a big part of how they're they operate and I didn't really realize how this is gonna sound a little dramatic like I didn't realize how kind of like alone I felt as you know as a Christian professional until I saw faithfully and I was like like I'm not the only Christian professional I knew that mentally of course right but I felt like I kind of was and you know and realizing oh man there's tons of other people here and they're here because they're looking for connections to people like me and you know that's one of the things I think with pastoring that is like unnecessarily difficult is that as pastors the expectation basically is that you're sort of like above people and so rightly or wrongly you end up kind of being at you know people that's lonely at the top and it's like it's not supposed to be that way in churches but it kind of is like and so a lot of pastors don't feel like I myself like I struggle with this like I don't feel like I can be open and vulnerable with the people in my church because suddenly my my pay they're they have control of my pay to an extent and so like oh if I'm struggling be you know with an addiction or I'm struggling with this unhealthy habit or whatever it is like I the tendency to keep that closed right and so it's it's very hard to develop a sense of having peers right as pastors and so that's one of the things with faithfully I think is awesome is wonderful and so that's I think that's one of faithfully I think there's a ton of opportunity there for myself like start connecting with other people to develop relationships you know yeah you can create a secret group and complain about your congregants that's what I tell pastors yeah you could do that you could do that I don't know if I think here's I think it's important to have safe places of course right like and and that's one of the things that so the way that our church like new life fellowship is structures it's it's different than a lot of other churches are in the sense we have four pastors so maybe we have maybe like we're coming up on 200 people in the church so we have a one full-time pastor and then a part time than two of us are lay pastors and one of the things that I'm so grateful for is that I do have a place in that group of four of us where I can go and I can complain and I like I know it's not like I know it's the flesh right but it's like I just need to get stuff off my chest with people who love me and they're committed to seeing the real Josh and they're not afraid of me sinning if that makes sense right like they're not afraid of that and they're committed to me beyond that anyway like when we have that safe place like man like when you can speak truthfully about how you feel and what you're thinking in a safe spot like that or there's so much value there I think and so I think that's what a lot of pastors and a lot of churches are missing as I'm so grateful for it with the new life fellowships like that hey like number one our church culture is very open it's very transparent and it's okay for pastors to struggle and have a hard time with stuff like I don't know how many other pastors will be comfortable talking to body image issues you know but I am and I have right and so yeah so it's like it's one of those things again that's like what faithfully has to offer I think is something that is desperately needed in yeah Christian church culture and community even then you still need outside counsel because yeah you can be best friends with your wife but when you get into a conflict with your wife you need someone else to talk to you so yeah 100% yeah and I swear like my perspective now is that God just sees all of us as like little toddlers that can tell so anytime someone is like boasting I'm like oh you're two year old like showing up yeah yeah totally there's a great quote by my friend Frank I mentioned earlier in the he said you know when we're willing to be toddlers like we really be like with childlike with God then we end up acting like adults to other people but if we try to be adults with God and try to be all polished and come across the right way with God then we end up being childish to other people as like man there's just a real hard earned wisdom in there like and so I think I think that God yeah it's weird like I think he does I think he sees me as I am right and like and he's okay with me as I am and he's not he loves me enough not to leave me where I am like he's constantly wooing me and inviting me deeper you know but yeah I think sometimes you just like oh Josh you're just you know like and not in a bad way but like just in the way you see like you know like a toddler like a little kid like man I love you like and I love that you're trying really hard but like there's such an easy way to do it but I also respect and that's the thing too God respects me like that's wild like to think about that like he respects me and he's not gonna force it force anything on me like he'll move at the pace that I allow him to move right and yeah yeah there's just so much more there because it's about like parenting and like if you tell your kid everything they're never gonna learn and yeah yeah yeah yeah absolutely man I'm not gonna go to that I do want to tap into what was I gonna say oh I complete forgot that's right one last thing is like how can we be praying for you you know it's it's interesting it's an interesting experience to be working in an industry dominated by Google in the sense that Google jobs a new algorithm it everything changes you know like Google Gives and Google can take away and so I think for myself like praying for me I I think that the lead pastor comm has so much potential to really make a tangible difference in the lives of just pastors you know and that's my heart for it and that's what I really want and so my heart like my desires that I learn the things I need to learn I learn to do it well and that I can grow the site and like every article is like good like well done you know and so that's that's a I feel I feel a real sense of a gosh to say a sense of destiny feels like way too grandiose responsibility you know like it's a sense of timeliness like like the timing of me coming on to take over the site like yeah I just feel like God could do some really wonderful things there and I just want to hear his voice well so that makes sense like yeah perfect yeah yeah thanks for coming on Josh this is great oh Danny I loved it man anytime happy to talk through this you know just the small things like human suffering and trusting Jesus we'll make a secret group so that we can put 100% all right that's it for the podcast by guys see you guys thank you for tuning in to the faith leaf stories podcast we pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey the faith leaf stories podcast is brought to you by faith leaf an online community committed to empowering church leaders pastors staff and volunteers the faith leaf digital platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection foster collaboration and promote growth within the church and ministry space remember to subscribe rate and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you stay tuned for more uplifting tales from the front lines of ministry on the faith leaf podcast stay bold stay faithful and never underestimate the power of your own story