Replenish - Lance Witt | Faithly Stories

I was on a flight, going to Singapore, was middle of the night, everybody on the plane is asleep. I'm just wrestling with God like one of my supposed to do. Here I am 46, like I should know, should all be clear, I should be well on my path, right? And I feel like I'm starting over at Ground Zero, and I just said, God, what do you want me to do in this season? And I wasn't really expecting an answer, but so clearly, I just heard in my spirit these words. I want you to help leaders be healthy, holy, and humble. Welcome to Faithly Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders, as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life, brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, learn more at Faithly.co. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired on the Faithly Stories podcast. Once we're welcome to the Faithly Stories podcast. Thank you so much, Alicia, it is such a pleasure to be with you and to get acquainted with you. Well, so we have had a couple of conversations now, Lance, and it has been great fun to get to know you. So, Lance, you have had the rare experience of serving as lead pastor at three different churches, and then pastoring at one of the largest churches in the world, Saddleback, and not a lot of pastors have had that breath of experience. Can you walk us through like a little bit of what that arch of that journey looked like for you? Well, probably first I would say I actually became a lead pastor at the ripe age of 23, and I feel like I should go back and hunt down all of those church members and apologize to them, because I had a lot of zeal and enthusiasm, but not a lot of wisdom to bring to the table in those days, but they were very gracious with me. That was a, it was a rural church. We never felt like we fit very well culturally, but when I look back over those years, the people loved us, and they were so kind to us, and they gave me lots of time, and I think when I would kind of put one headline over that church was that it was really a season where I dug into God's Word. I mean, I was prepping, preaching all the time. We did Sunday morning, Sunday nights. I taught women's Bible studies, men's Bible studies, camps. So I was immersed in Scripture for five years. And even though I had a Bible college degree and a seminary degree, just the sort of daily discipline of that was a huge foundation in my ministry. And then I went to a church in North Texas. Again, pretty rural. In fact, they had had a consultant, Kamenai had read his report, and he said, this is the worst location for a church I've ever seen. And that's not very encouraging when you're the new pastor, but the Lord just did such a great work. And growing up is sort of a more traditional Southern Baptist environment. It was the first place where we began to experiment with doing church differently, but still biblically. And I attended my first Rick Warren purpose driven church conference when I was the pastor during those days. And I remember coming home back then, didn't have an iPad or a laptop. I had a yellow pad, a paper, a legal pad. And I remember just making a list on the airplane like, what are some of the ideas I could implement that wouldn't blow up my church? And so that was sort of the criteria for what we might try. And it was a great season for our family, our church quadripled in the few years that we were there, and became sort of a presence in that region. And again, I just looked back on a lot of those great memories as we just saw a lot of people come to Christ. I was really growing as a leader, and our family just really flourished during those years. And then, and it wasn't always easy, of course, but it was still a rich season. And I went to New Mexico, where I'm from, and a couple of my friends were on staff at a church that was kind of known in those days for being pretty innovative. They were one of the first churches to move to, you know, Saturday night services. They were doing quite a few things different. And so I was very drawn to go there when they invited me to come and be the pastor, but when I got there, man, it was really hard. Like they were in the middle of a capital campaign project that had been very divisive in the church, about a third of the church left because the previous pastor left. And they just loved him, and he wasn't there anymore. So why come to the church if Sam's not the pastor anymore? And then one of the guys on our staff, his marriage had blown up, and there was an affair involved. I had to let a close friend go from the staff, and it was so hard, Alicia. But again, the Lord redeemed it. We really made a strong transition to small groups, and it was probably when I look at that church, one of the headlines would be probably the closest staff camaraderie I've ever had in my life. And still I look back on that season with a lot of richness. We went through some real fires together, but it was really a great season. And then like you said, in 1999, I joined the staff at Saddleback Church, and wow, what a change. I mean, I felt very much like I had the imposter syndrome like if they really find out that I'm not who they think I am, I am really in trouble. And originally went there as the pastor of discipleship, then took on small groups, then took on these spiritual growth campaigns, and then a couple years in, they asked me to be the executive pastor over all the ministry side of the church. And you know, it was an amazing experience being in a church that was growing so fast, having such influence, but, and I'm sure we'll get into this, but much of the backstory of that season was that I wasn't leading myself very well. And so I say about that season, it was both the most intoxicating and toxic all at the same time. And so I have profound gratitude for the years I was there, what I learned about leadership and what God allowed us to be a part of, but it was also one of the most challenging and hard seasons of my life. So again, there's a lot of stories underneath each of those chapters of my ministry life, but hopefully that gives you a bit of an overview. Thank you. I appreciate that so much, Land. I think for those of us who haven't had decades, decades of ministry experience, the chapter that we're currently in can feel like everything. It can be really hard to see that there's a future in front of it, but I think to hear someone like you who's led at multiple churches, led in different ways, and you're sitting you're having a conversation and you speak about it with joy and gratitude. And I think that's really encouraging. Yeah, it's pretty surreal to say, I've been in ministry for half a century and the church has changed so much in those decades, certainly in North America. And yeah, so it's been some really hard times, but gosh, I still try to wake up most days and go, Lord, thank you for tapping me on the shoulder and giving me the opportunity to give my life in ministry. And I can't imagine doing anything else with my life, you know, there were a few days when I would have loved to do anything else, but most days I can't really imagine doing anything other than what I get to do. Wow, it's important and it's important to say that, you know, it's not all roses. Okay, so there are a few things you mentioned that I'd love to dig into. The first is, I love how you talked about your first pastor and experience with so much humility and, you know, talking about how, well, you went to Bible college, but like this is where you really built a foundation for your ministry. I have heard, I've heard warnings to pastors that go something like this. If your only experience with the scripture is with your Sunday sermon prep, then you're doing something wrong. As a leader in my church, I have found that it's actually the preparation for a sermon or for a small group that I'm reading can really feed me and really less me. And it gives me a really great rhythm. So anyway, if I would love to hear what you think about that. Yeah, I think, again, I would just like you, I think a lot of my sermon preparation through the years has been part of my own sanctification because God is speaking to me. I'm wrestling with the text. I'm wrestling with the application of it in my own life before I ever get, you know, to speak it or share it in front of a congregation. But I think the danger is that you can sort of let that become the replacement of your own John 15 abiding in Jesus just as a person. And I do feel like there's a temptation when you're in vocational ministry that you're constantly going to scripture and seeing it not through the lens of, hey, I'm a disciple of Jesus and I need this for myself. But oh, here's a great passage I can teach honor. This would make a great illustration and a sermon. And so I think it, you know, for me, it should be a both end where part of my walk with Jesus is in the delivery and prep and my journey with my congregation. But then there's the, okay, Lance, how about if you just be a Christian today, not a leader and read the Bible for what you need as a human, not what you need as a pastor. Yeah. So to me, I think it's a, a, a both end. Yeah. That's good. It's a great saying. I've used many times. It goes like this that if you're not careful, you can relate, let your work for God replace your being with God. Yeah. And so I just think it's something to have on our radar as people who speak and teach in the ministry. Yeah. And I love the way that you put that. It's full of wisdom. So Lance, how did you discern that it was time to start the next chapter of your ministry, you know, going from, from church to church, you know, role to role? How did that, how did you go about that process? Well, if I can just be really honest, I'd love to be able to sit here with you, Alicia, and say, well, I, you know, it's just clearly I got a word from God and had this sort of in my prayer moment, this Holy Spirit sort of revelation that let me know. To me, it's always been messier than that. And I would tell you in my first church, I left more out of discouragement and frustration because I left Bible college. I think that in seminary, like a lot of young leaders think, man, I am going to grow. And I, we were in a town of 3,000 and I was like going to grow a mega church in this town of 3,000. And pretty soon, all of my vision disintegrated in the hard work of pastoring a rural congregation. And the truth is I wanted out. I thought God had something much bigger in mind for me. And he left me there in those years and the, I would say the last years were just about being faithful. And so I wish I could tell you that it wasn't until I got fully content and I was willing to stay there the rest of my life. I think God opened the next opportunity. I, I wanted to leave. And again, I think I had some unhealthy ambition that was driving some of that. And so I don't know that I would even say I went through a lot of spiritual discerning, kind of process as much as I just wanted a different, like a different ministry, a different place. Like I said, we didn't really fit great culturally. And God in His grace opened the door and we went to a new place. And again, as we, you know, we're in a healthy season at the end there, I think it was one of those where God just began to tap us on the shoulder and go, here's an environment where I think you could thrive and flourish. It was a little, it was a college town. And so there was some opportunity around that that, that was really a draw. And so I felt like God really was drawing us to something. And that's was kind of the, the cause of us leaving. And then when I went from my church in New Mexico to Saddleback, again, it's a very long story. But I remember we were kind of, I was on their website and I was looking for some materials and my mother-in-law and my wife were looking over my shoulder because we were searching for something. And we saw this ad pop up for this pastor of discipleship with a focus on decentralized small groups. And they said, man, that sounds like you. And I thought, this is Saddleback church. It's so much bigger and like, so anyway, but through a long story and about 30 days later, we actually ended up there. It just became so clear in the process that this was something God was doing because there's no way I could have in my humanity orchestrated that. I wasn't, due to just looked at it on paper, I wasn't qualified. And so, you know, again, it just seemed like God was confirming through circumstances that this was the next place he was leading us to. It wasn't something that we had sought out really. It just supernaturally sort of popped on the radar screen. And then, I'll just tell you quickly, when we were leaving Saddleback, that was much more a journey about the health of my soul. And it wasn't so much that God was calling me to something else in that moment, but calling me out of something that I had to step away from. Because I think Alicia, in my deepest soul, I was unhealthy. I wasn't leading myself well. There was a lot of chaos. And I wasn't longing for a different way to do ministry or a different kind of ministry because I love Saddleback. I was really looking for a different way to do life. And I knew that I wasn't healthy enough to find that new way of doing life if I stayed in that environment. And so all of those situations are quite different in terms of discerning. What would I look back on though? And I could never write a book about discerning how to leave a church. But I would say I'm profoundly grateful that God has been so good and gracious. Even when maybe I wasn't doing it for all the right reasons, he still made a way forward. And use those circumstances and us in those churches in some fun and beautiful ways. That is quite a tapestry lens. Yes. But it's a beautiful one. And I just have to say thank you for sharing it so vulnerably. I think when you can share about things so honestly, like motivations that maybe aren't quite right, I think it helps younger leaders to spot that in themselves. And for the leaders who've made those mistakes and they're in their rear view mirror to know that it can all be redeemed and you can see the tapestry and see the story over time. So I want to ask about, well first I want to point out the dichotomy and something that you've said. When you talk about going a saddle back and the circumstances and you said you may be perhaps weren't qualified. And God sort of orchestrating that and opening that door for you. And yet it being the place where you said my soul is unhealthy, I just want to point out that dichotomy, that that was the journey that the Lord brought you to, like that place of difficulty that you then had to leave. I just think that's so interesting. Yeah. Like to me, what sits in the middle of that dichotomy is the phrase self leadership. And I feel like I have no doubt God brought us there. It was an amazing season. But I also was not doing a great job of leading myself. And a lot of times getting swept along and almost even being the victim. I remember my wife and I would have these hard conversations where she would go, you're never home, you work all the time, the kids don't get time with you. And I remember saying things like, hey, that's just the way it is in ministry or it's just for a season. It's going to get better. And sometimes she would stop me and go, it never gets better. Like it's always the same. And I think when I finally left, I was able to kind of come to this place where I realized like, hey, no one was putting a gun to my head. I was who I was in that unhealthy spot because of choices I was making. And I love this great quote I used from Henry Cloudway says, you are ridiculously in charge of your life. And I had to come to the place where I would own that I was ridiculously in charge of my life. And part of that was what caused me honestly to step away when I didn't have another job or another church to go to, but I knew we had to make a change. Right. Well, so I do want to talk about that time. But right before we get there, I don't know that I've talked to a lot of guys who have gone from lead pastor to executive pastor. Yeah. That's not a typical move. Did you, did you approach that with trepidation or were you excited? I had just I'm curious what that was like for you. Yeah. I really was. I remember when the executive pastor, who ultimately was going to be my boss at Saddleback, he called me at one point in the journey and he said, how are you feeling? And I said, well, first off, I'm not 100% clear what the job is that I'm interviewing for. I mean, it was a lot of different pieces. And I said, secondly, it doesn't feel like a great time to leave my church. And thirdly, I've never done any role as, you know, but a lead pastor is an adult. And so I shouldn't know how that's going to feel now. I don't feel like I have the personality where I have to be at the, you know, at the chair at the head of the table. I feel like I'm wired that I can, you know, serve in a more supporting role. And what I would say in a church like Saddleback at its size and influence, the leadership opportunities as the executive pastor were still enormous and had such a high lid to it that there was still lots of room for me to grow. What I do think is if you're going to make a move from lead pastor to executive pastor, you have to wrestle with, do I have to speak all the time? And do I have to be the one who is casting vision for where we're going? If the answer to those is yes, then you probably wouldn't consider making that change. But I'm wired in such a way that I think I could say I don't have to. So yeah, that's a whole other topic that would be an interesting one to dive into. Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you for sharing some of your wisdom and your experience on that. Okay. So now I want to go to you realize that your soul was unhealthy, that you needed to get healthy and you stepped away from your role at Saddleback. You said you didn't have another job. You didn't have another role. So what did you do? Yeah. Well, so let me back up and just kind of share one piece of sort of the journey of this. I think, Alicia, I have an internal script that I picked up from my family of origin that goes like this work card, be responsible, achieve. And that's how you succeed and that's how you get loved. Well, when that's the driving internal narrative of your life, you're only as good as your race accomplishment and you, you strive and you work hard and so I've struggled with workahalism, all my life and and in many ways that serve me well, right? Because I, I feel like I'm fairly high-capacity and get a lot done. I will work at it until I get it done. But then when I get to Saddleback, this thing is way bigger like no matter how much energy, effort, whatever I threw at it, it was never enough and I, I didn't know how to deal with that. And so at least the feelings of inadequacy, like you're not enough and you just continue to work harder and harder until your, your soul begins to shrivel and you move from what I often call good-hard to destructive hard. And now I can look back with some clear perspective, but I know in those years I was moving and crossing that line from good-hard to destructive hard and I was losing my way. Things were not good with, you know, family life. I had no sense of fun or recreation or hobby in my life. All I did was work and and so I began to sense this in my own soul. My wife and I talked so much, pray, we went through about a six-month process. I had four pretty lengthy conversations with myself and Pastor Rick and they were honest and hard, but I feel like both of us really tried to honor each other in that. And I just remember having this really clear moment we were sitting at a retreat and the reasons I had written down that I might consider leaving, I felt like they were almost played out in slow motion during that retreat and I had this realization like, yeah, these are probably not going to be any different right now and I need to make a step away. And I remember just I went out to this, we were at a golf course and I went out to the banister overlooking the golf courses, middle of the afternoon, I just burst into tears. And even now I can kind of feel the emotion of that moment and I just remember getting on the phone with my wife and just saying, okay, we're done. And I remember letting Rick know that we were going to be stepping away and honestly when I stepped away, I was in this moment, I was, I think I was 46, I just began to scramble like I had, I didn't have an income so I would speak for people who wanted me to speak, I would consult, I would write curriculum, you know, I would have been, I would have owed yards, I, I sort of, and then I traveled in insane amount, which is also part of our story because my wife ended up in a pretty deep depression. Both of our kids got married that first year out of Saddleback. A lot of our friendships changed kind of went away because they sort of moved on with their lives. They're still in ministry at the church and we're not. I'm on the road all the time and I think we didn't realize how much her identity was wrapped up in being a part of the ministry. And so she went in this dark depression and, gosh, I remember coming home a couple of times when she hadn't gotten dressed all day, still just sitting on the couch and us just having some honest conversation like, man, if I need to come off the road and just go find a secular job just so you can be the best version of yourself, then I'm willing to do that. That season became one of the statements I have in my life manifesto, which will conny will be my best friend and I'll be her biggest cheerleader. And that season really anchored that value in me. And so anyway, I didn't end up getting out of ministry, but it was during that season a few months after we left Saddleback that through a pretty, I've had very few moments with Salisha where I just like had mystical experiences where God spoke to me, but I was on a flight going to Singapore and it was middle of the night, everybody on the plane is asleep. I'm just wrestling with God like what am I supposed to do? Here I am 46 like I should know it should all be clear. I should be well on my path, right? And I feel like I'm starting over at ground zero and I just said, God, what do you want me to do in this season? And I wasn't really expecting an answer, but so clearly I just heard in my spirit these words, I want you to help leaders be healthy, holy and humble. And I remember thinking to myself, I don't have any idea what that would look like practically, but I thought I could give my life to that. And yet I knew I had to get healthy first. And so I feel like that put me on this trajectory to start to focus on the soul of a leader and my own soul. And so replenish was birth out of that sense of call. Wow. Thank you for sharing that. That is, well, so I think it was, it was Pastor Rick who said this, that out of your deepest pain will become your greatest ministry. And it sounds like that happened to you out of your ministry burn out, out of your unhealthy soul replenish was birthed. Yeah, the way I'll say it sometimes is out of my mess came my message and the message that God now has given me to share with other leaders. And it really does 100% it flows out of my own story and out of my own struggle and pain. And now I feel like I can authentically come alongside and be a friend to a leader and go, hey, I get it. And yeah. And don't show up with any judgment. Because I, I mean, the moment we're living in right now, it maybe is the most complex moment to lead in the church I've ever seen in my lifetime. And so when people are tempted or want or do walk away, I get it like I can see how you get there. And some of them it's the right decision and some of them they'll be back in ministry. But maybe for now, they need a break. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So I'm really struck by how the Lord knew he could trust you with this assignment even before you got healthy, right? So you got the assignment, then you had to embark on your journey. How did you do that? What was the first thing you did? Well, I'm just so grateful he gave me such a clear call because there were moments when I, I mean, Alicia, I'm a local church pastor all this time up to that moment. So I have no idea how to be a consultant, how to start a nonprofit, how to do any of that. And so when I felt lost, I could always go back to that really clear call. And I would say at first, while I was figuring out what replenish look like, I'm doing a lot of other things, just speaking, consulting, talking to churches about small groups. And probably in those early days, 5% was replenish. But I just began to write and develop tools and they would invite me to come do staff retreats or come and speak to a team or I would do some life coaching with, you know, with a pastor. And then I got trained in life planning 15 years ago. And so I just little by little began to put these tools and little processes into place and, you know, look for opportunities to share those or to have a, you know, six month contract with a church and, and then I wrote my first book, replenish and replenish was still early on in my journey where I feel like I had way more questions than I had answers. But it was an honest sort of dialogue, if you will, about like, how do you do ministry for my healthy place? And it's been finishing. It's been out now, like, I don't know, 14 years, still of pastors all the time who go, man, like your journey and that, I so much resonate with, you know, some of those same questions and struggles that you are having. And so over time, just began to build sort of strategies and processes that I could utilize in helping pastors and in serving their teams. Wow. Okay. So replenish was your first book, you've now written three. If someone is looking to dive into your writing, would you recommend they start with replenish or where would you have them go? Yeah. I think they're kind of written to three different audiences, if you will. I think replenish really is written to someone who's in full time ministry and would love to explore more like, how do I do this in a healthy way? What are some of the landmines and what are some of the pitfalls of modern ministry and how do I do it in a way that still keeps my soul flourishing and thriving? So I think that's where replenish with land. And then high impact teams, the tagline is really where health meets high performance. And so it's the synergy between, yeah, health really matters and but high performance also matters. It's a stewardship. We have a responsibility to be productive and effective and, you know, I, part, I'll tell you a quick backstory on that one. So I was doing a retreat with some younger mega church pastors up in Breckenridge, Colorado. And we're about 10 of us sitting around a table and I did a, a talk on Sabbath. And I got done and I said, Hey, anybody have any comments, any questions? There's a little bit of a pause in this one guy says, well, I'll just be honest with you. He said, this talk is why I try to keep guys like you away from my staff. He said, some of my younger staff, the last thing they need is another Sabbath or another reason not to work hard. And I had felt that in other environments, but no one had ever said it to me so directly. But I was, I was prepared. And so what I said to him is, how about if you deal with the underperforming staff member rather than ignore a biblical command? And so we have a very engaging conversation on the heels of that. But when I walked away from that experience and just reminding me like, yeah, a lot of people like their issue isn't just on the health side, they actually need to learn how to work hard and be productive and effective. And that actually I think the best teams really chase hard after both sides of that. And so it's a really practical book coming out of my own learnings and things I've done well and things I feel like I've done miserably in being on a team and leading teams. And then my last, the last book, your one life that I wrote just most recently, flows out of what I would call six decades of just living on the planet. And if I could sit down with my kids or my four granddaughters and talk to them about, what does it look like to do life well and steward the one and only life you're ever going to have? What would I share with them? And so it's really more of a, here's what I feel like I'm learning about life that I would want to pass on to someone. Thank you for taking us on a little tour of your book's lands. I'm going to read all three of them, but I started as I told you before we hit record, I started with your one life, which I actually have here in front of me. And I shared with you that my plan was to speed read it because I speed read everything and that's podcast prep, but you gave us very explicit instructions in the book, not to do that. So I read enough wisdom in here to know that I should follow that wise advice. And but even in the first few chapters that I've sort of slowly read through, I was really, I'm so glad you shared what was behind the book because it's, it's exactly what I thought. It's, I think that getting through this book will help to bring clarity in the chaos that is life. I love how you started by talking about death quite frankly. I read in a newspaper article once many years ago that our only way of dealing with death is really to pretend that it does not exist. So therefore when we reach these moments, you know, like the death of a family member, which you and I have both recently experienced, they can be so startling in search for dramatic because we spend most of our lives pretending that that death is not a thing. So I really appreciated how you open the book with a very frank discussion about death. We did not choose to be born, we could write it like there and we, and we will die. Like these were, these are, these are truths about life that we don't often confront. Yeah, I always, I think about when St. Benedict wrote the, his rule of life about how the monks were to live in unity together and live in harmony in the monastery and all that, you know, and there's some very practical things, but one of his rules was keep death daily before your eyes. And I think there's just something healthy about all of us remembering like we're not going to be here forever. And we don't get a second go round, you know, and you know, the kind of the signature verse of the book is Psalm 912, which says in the new living translation, teach us to realize the brevity of life that we may live from a heart of wisdom. And I just think for all of us, there's that sense that the clock is ticking. And so I want to be so wise and live for the things that I say are most important to me. And so that's really kind of like, if I would say what's the theme of the book, it's how do you steward well the one and only life you're ever going to get? Yeah, yeah. No, the theme comes through loud and clear from the earliest pages. And as I shared with you, I stopped reading it as I got to the part where we put together our life mission statement because I want to do it with my husband. And maybe maybe we'll have to have you back, Lance, and we'll do a workshop live on the podcast. But so that is, yeah, you're one life. I can't wait to read it. I'm going to read it slowly and deliberately and with my husband. Okay. So I want to go back to church leadership for a second. Okay. What changes do you think churches and maybe just Christian organizations more broadly need to make to better care for and to sustain their leaders? Well, I think actually the good is is I feel like that is coming. I think coming out of COVID and all the focus on mental health and burnout that it's finally on the radar that we have to pay attention to people's souls and their internal health and their families. I grew up in a time, Alicia, where in ministry, we didn't talk about leadership. I studied Greek and Hebrew and systematic theology and church history. And then guys like Rick Warren and Bill Hybles and John Maxwell came on the scene and they began to talk about leadership. And in my first church, most of my issues weren't around Greek or Hebrew. Most of the issues were around leadership and recruiting volunteers and resolving conflict and, you know, discipling people like those were the issues I was facing. And so I feel like what happened is because it was such a desert when we started to get guys talking about leadership, we all of us migrated to that so much. So that that became everything it became about growing your church, getting bigger, expanding your ministry, right? And what inadvertently happened I think is we lost the focus on the soul and who I am internally. And by the way, I think this is very consistent with what Jesus taught that the Christian life moves from the inside to the outside, from the invisible to the visible, from the root. And then there's the fruit. It's why Solomon in Proverbs 4.23 says above everything else, guard your heart because everything you do flows from it. And so we should pay much attention to our soul. And there's a guy named Parker Palmer and he says a leader has a responsibility to pay attention to what it's happening inside himself or herself. Less the active leadership do more harm than good. And I think unfortunately we've witnessed that over and over in the last 30 years as very gifted high profile charismatic leaders stop paying attention to their soul, lived in isolation and sort of blew up their lives in their ministries. And so I do think churches and organizations are coming around and I think they're starting to pay attention to like things like sabbatical, healthy rhythms, counseling for marriages, helping people, you know, more resources around self-awareness and paying attention to your inner life and, you know, soul-cared days that are put on the calendar so that you get, you know, I've got a church in California that once a quarter, you get a day just to go and be with Jesus. It's not a day to be productive, it's not a day to have a bunch of meetings. It's a day not to goof off, but a day just for you to go in journal, read scripture, pray, walk, be alone with Jesus. And I just go, man, those kinds of investments are going to help churches be healthier. And one of the things I would say to churches and organizations is look at your systems and processes, your HR process and ask, are we perpetuating hell through the processes that we have as an organization? And if they're not there and they're not front and center, maybe start putting, dripping some of those best practices into your organization. Yeah. Well, so what I'm really struck by in your response, Lance, is that this is, there's not like an easy fix or an easy solution. There's not one book you can have your staff read or one workshop you attend and poof, you're healthy and you've set up properly. No, it's a constellation of things that I think as a church or an organization, you have to be really mindful of to encourage soul health. And I think senior pastors, executive pastors have to really take a step back and go, okay, do I really believe this is important? And if it is that I'm going to create space in our staff meetings, in our culture, not just for driving for performance and expanding and getting bigger and reaching more people, but for like, hey, team and the health of our team. And one of the illustrations I use is when you're standing on a platform and you're speaking, the easiest people to look are the people on the front row. Because your eyes kind of look past them to the rest of the crowd. And I think for a lot of us as leaders, the easiest people for us to overlook are the team that serves right around us. And we're looking to the congregation, leaders in the community and high capacity donors. But what's the health of our team? And I just think man, paying attention to that pays huge dividends. I want to talk about the next generation of leaders. The leaders who are coming up, yes, maybe they're in their 20s and they're in that first church and they're building the foundation. What encouragement or advice would you have for those young leaders today? And first off, I would say thank you for saying yes to Jesus, saying yes to the calling, for giving your life and sacrificing to do ministry. It's not easy. It's messy. People are hard to deal with. So thank you for jumping in, being on the front lines down in the trenches of local church ministry. I would also say take advantage of all the amazing resources that are available to you now as a young leader to sharpen the axe and to sharpen your skills and to get better. I would say become a student of your own soul. Pay attention to your inner life. Take time to reflect and ask questions like, why was I triggered by that? Or why did I react that way in that meeting? What's going on at a deeper level that maybe I should take note of and pay attention to? I would also say open your life to real accountability. You need a couple of people that you grab by the call, you look them in the eye and go, hey, I need you to tell me when I get off track. If you see me mistreat my spouse or I'm dishonest in a conversation, I don't want you to feel permission. I want you to feel responsibility because there's too much at stake in my life to blow myself up. One of the questions I often ask leaders is, who in your life can rebuke you? Because Proverbs always talks about rebuke and correction as a gift. The follow-up question I would ask you is, do they ever actually rebuke you? Or are you stiff-arming them in some way so that that never happens? If I could just throw one more thing in a leash and it's probably the biggest one I would say to a young leader, you got to learn how to deal with ambition. ambition in your life, ambition when it is governed by the Holy Spirit and is directed to the glory of God, it is a powerful thing. But when it gets hijacked by your ego and when your ambition now becomes your need to be known or to have so many followers on social media, and sometimes we can wrap it in God talk and God speak and we can put it in language of spiritual vision. But if I'm honest, a lot of my ambition was driven by a need to be known, to be seen as successful, to be acknowledged by other people. And I just think we need a lot more robust theology of ambition and dealing with that. Because, you know, and the ender obviously is just authentic humility and humility just looks good on everybody. And so I would say manage your ambition. So can I ask a couple of follow-up questions? So you, you threw out the idea of having people who hold you accountable, who not just hold you accountable but can rip you. Who should those people be? Because when I think about most ministry leaders and the people they're surrounded by, a lot of times it's like colleagues, like people they work with or there are other people in the church, like, do you, does one need to find people outside of your circle, outside of your church? I'm curious. I think it is outside of my most immediate, like, circle. Now obviously, we have concentric circles, right? Those people that we know, those people who are acquaintances, those people who are friends, but almost need a couple of three people where we're fully known. And I think that takes time. And I would say, you know, like one criteria is if they're volunteering to have that role in your life, they're probably not the right person. Like, hey, I'd love to keep you accountable and, you know, I'd love to review you. So and another thing for me, Alicia, is like, do I have good chemistry with this person? Because if I'm going to let you inside the veil, like into the inner recesses of my life and my soul, I want to know like one, we have a deep connection and we have great chemistry together and that I can trust you with that. And so I think it takes time, sometimes years, to build that. And I feel like for a lot of us, especially as leaders in ministry, we have a lot of sort of surface acquaintances and casual friendships. Like, who's that person or two where you're actually pursuing that relationship and creating time to go deeper? And this is awkward, I think, more for guys, typically, but even articulating, go, hey, I really feel like we have the potential to have a really deep friendship. And I just want you know, I want to commit to taking that friendship deeper. And so I want to challenge us to make time to be authentic and honest when we're getting together like, let's go to some of those deeper places and just put it out there on the table. And it won't work with everyone. But if you get a couple of those people like I think about my best friend in ministry, who we've now walked for 35 years as best friends, like that is such a rich treasure. If you have one of those, you are blessed. And if you have two, you are doubly blessed and have like, you know, an incredible gift from God in that. Thank you for sharing that, Lance. I think that's important for ministry leaders to hear, right? So that they don't grab like the next guy who they happen to see on a Sunday or I think and also so that they don't think, well, what's wrong with me? If I don't have someone like that in my life right now, as you said, it can take years to build and you have to do it with intentionality. Yeah. And there are seasons when you're raising kids and your, you know, your schedule is maxed that you can't maybe invest the time that you will later. But I can tell you that I'm so grateful like with this guy that's my best friend that we did make it a priority, even in those busiest of seasons, that built a foundation so that now when we have more time and we're empty nesters, we're building out what we really built 30 years ago and we're not starting today. So as hard as it is, give it some energy and time, even in the busiest of seasons. That's good advice. All right. Maybe we could wrap it on this final question, Lance. As you look at the church today, what fills you with hope for the future? The number of gifted, passionate, dedicated young leaders that are emerging, what, you know, just recently listening to a podcast that Carrie Newhoff did with Andy Wood and Luke LeFevere out at Saddleback about a kind of almost a revival that they're experiencing where they just chose to like, hey, we're not going to do church the same. We're going to do like, and I think they went to like two or three in the morning, a couple of nights where there was worship and teaching, but also repentance and confession and people on their face before God and the gatherings of young adults around the country, even in the UK, there's a real movement of young adults coming to Christ. I was listening to some guys, Nikki Gumball, who started the program Alpha from Holy Trinity Brompton. They said in the last five years, the stats on atheism have been cut in half. So there is something really fresh happening that God is doing. So that gives me incredible hope. And I think also I'm seeing 20, 23, 25 year olds, they are so far ahead of where I was in my early years of leadership. There's so much better equipped and trained that, you know, where I was at 45, they might be at 25 or 27 and I just go, man, that gives me incredible hope. And I think the Holy Spirit's up to something. Again, we don't manufacture that, but we're in a moment where I think if there was ever a time for us to bring our A game and really be courageous and loving, like it's now and be bold with the gospel. So I am encouraged and hopeful at what I see emerging in the next generation of leaders. I couldn't agree more, Lance. I listened to that whole revival series from Kerry Newhoff with Zach Mirkriebs and John Tyson and Andy Wood. Actually my husband went to Asbury. He felt so drawn to see what God was up to there. So then to hear Zach talk about it on that podcast for us was really special. So I agree. Thank you for bringing that up and thank you Lance for this amazing conversation. I feel like I learned a lot. I've been taking notes as even writing. I can't wait to finish reading your book, your one life. And I look forward to meeting you the next time you're in New York City, Lance. Thank you, Alicia. It's been such a delight to get to know you. You have such a warm and gracious personality and just very endearing. So I do look forward to it and we can sit down, love to, I can't told you I'll take you and your husband out to dinner somewhere that you like to go and in Manhattan and we'll hang out. That'll be fun. I'll take you up on it. I love it. Thank you, Lance. All right. Thanks, Alicia. Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff, and volunteers. The Faithly Digital Platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection, foster collaboration, and promote growth within the church and ministry space. Remember to subscribe, rate, and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you. Stay tuned for more uplifting tales from the Frontlines of Ministry on the Faithly podcast. Stay bold, stay faithful, and never underestimate the power of your own story.