Three Generations of Pastors - Alex Williams

I also had to be careful not to be so judgmental on my grandparents because I also understood that it was a different time and also it was also a different time socioeconomically. So whereas in the 60s and 70s people in the African-American context weren't really influential, didn't really have many opportunities. So when they gave all their time and they tied and they gave their best to the church to give their time, their effort, their resources to the church to pass the really felt, the ownership of ensuring that people are progressing, people are moving forward, people are healthy, people have a provision. And so whatever we need to do, let's just make it happen. But I'm aware in a much different time. Hey, welcome. My name is Alex Williams. I am a pastor of the Institutional International Ministries Church. AKA, Institutional Church, I've got a Christ downtown Brooklyn, New York. I'm a community leader faithfully is on. And also, this is my faithfully story. Welcome to Faithly Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life. Join us as we delve into their challenges, moments of encouragement, and answered prayers. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff, and volunteers. Learn more at Faithly.co. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired as we unveil the heart of faith through stories from the front lines of ministry on the Faithly Stories podcast. Could you tell me how your faith journey started? Yes, so I'm a third generation pastor on both sides of my family. So both of my grandfathers, my maternal and paternal grandfathers were both like bishops, pastors in the Pentecostal context. And my dad was a pastor. My mom is a pastor. My brothers were pastors. My uncles were pastors. So literally, I had no escape. I tried, but no scared, but I didn't clearly didn't fail too well. Well, that's what we call failing forward. Wait, so did you know your maternal grandfather was a pastor when you were dating your wife? So yeah, so well, let me clarify. My mom's father was a bishop, and then my dad's father was a bishop. So when my parents met, they were both PKs, pastors, kids, and they met, had me, and I grew up in my grandfathers church in Jersey. And then when I turned about 12 or 13, I joined institutional, which was my grandfather, my dad's church. Okay, thanks for the clarification. Yes, so I feel like you're in a unique situation to answer this question. What was it like being a grandchild of a pastor and then growing up realizing, oh, wait, my parents also pastors, you know, because a lot of times people have that PK experience, but not like the grand PK experience. Yes, it's actually a pretty unique question and a unique context in that because my parents were pastor's kids and the type of context, church context that they grew up in. There was also a huge awareness of what they carried, the weight of their family name, the weight of their responsibilities. And so inadvertently, it was kind of impressed upon us as well. But then also there also were some awarenesses that they had or some experiences that they had that they didn't want to repeat with me. So there were some pros and cons in that respect. So they understood what I went through, but because of their sacrifice that they had to make as PKs, the same expectation was kind of placed on myself, you know what I mean? So what were some of the differences between your grandparents and your parents like expectations and pros and cons? Sure, my grandparents were highly traditional. Many of them, they were first generation believers, first generation pastors and leaders. So the expectation was very high and although they're attempt and their sincerity was there in terms of their faith, obviously if you're in the Pentecostal context in those early years, kind of dogmatic in a sense. I'm highly dogmatic and really dedicated to the context in which they were raised. My parents were a bit more liberal. They listened to music outside of gospel music. So I got a little bit of that. You know, they weren't as dogmatic. We were able to go to the movies. My grandparents didn't allow my parents to go to the movies. Just certain things that we just kind of out of outside of the traditional context that my parents gave me the leeway to do. They're a bit more exposed to the world. So I allowed my father to travel a lot. The choir that my church came out of. They traveled internationally all around the world. So my dad's been to Japan and Russia and Paris and Brazil and all over the world. And so because of that, I was able when I was going to travel a lot to Greece, Switzerland and just different places at the choir travel. So it was a great experience in that respect. So what are some of the things that you do differently than your parents or like your understanding of parenting? Yeah, I've taken it several degrees further. The first thing that I did when becoming a pastor was changing the name of our ministry. And we left the Kojik tradition. Celebrate all of its roots and all of the things that I learned and some of the principles that I still carry with me. But I knew that the context that the Lord called me to was much broader than just a denomination. And I really kind of find when you see a Baptist name or a church or AME or Pentecostal, whatever the context of the church is, it kind of isolates some people. So I knew that the Lord was calling me to something broader that my community that I was taking on and pastoring in was ever changing and growing, expanding and becoming more diverse. And so I knew that the Lord wanted to expand the ministry in terms of me personally. I'm in Pasadah as earrings. I think that would have been controversial. My grandparents would be rolling over in their green. Yeah, we have all different people that kind of attend our churches. Just the culture is as people come as you are. They dress as you are. And I kind of apply that also to our household. We have some, of course, we have order in our household. But one of the things that I want to be very clear is not to impose any of my... I wanted to say principles. I think that principles and values should transfer down and transfer forward. But I don't want to say, okay, because I'm a pastor, my son has to be a pastor. You know, don't want to place those heavy expectations on him. Because in that regard, he would be fourth generation and that stuff. It's to carry the weight of that. Yeah, I always say there's a difference between principles and preferences. Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah, indeed. I mean, I think that all of us are going to have our preferences. One of the things, even with my calling, I wanted to make sure that just because my dad was a cop, I was in a cop where he, a chef, me be a chef. You know, when it came down to my vocation, wanted to be make sure that it was really something that the Lord called me to. Because I've seen everything, Danny. Like, I've witnessed everything. My parents, my grandparents, were the type of people who, when people would get saved in their church. If they had a rough pass, like they would have quarters for them. They would live with them. You know, under the context with a pastor was, you know, everything, not just your pastor, but your doctor, your co-signer, your financial advisor, your psychiatrist. You know, your pastor was everything back then. And so my grandparents would house people. They would support people financially. And I'm not saying that we shouldn't still do that, but in a way that there were no boundaries between house and church, church and state, right? So like a boundaries and that respect. And so, yeah, I want to make sure that we keep a healthy balance between the two with my wife and I, versus to the traditions that I came from. Yeah, I think like something that I forget all the time is that people are doing the best within their context, because just because someone did it, like a certain way back in the day, we're living literally in a different time and different technology and different understandings of people and like more people, you know? So like I think healthy boundaries are their thing. And one thing like I think I repeated on the podcast is there are differences between boundaries, like borders and walls, right? Like borders are good things, but walls is like, oh, I want to keep you out. But borders is like, Kenny, like this is so that we stay safe. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, and I've seen in my experience, either certain aspects of my family or just outside of my family, I've seen how the church has become the fastest mistress at times, how the church, if not governed correctly, could take priority over the family. And you can't, it's hard to distinguish where one begins and where the other ends. And so, you know, the healthy boundary allows us to place alignment in terms of God's order and it also helps us to have a healthy relationship with God's church, you know? And I think that if we're not having those boundaries as you're establishing those boundaries, we have an unhealthy relationship with the church where it becomes toxic. Yeah, my hot take is, I think it comes out of ego of what that inside of complex. And I say that because I had it. So I think, you know, we all go through it, but you realize like, oh, I need to be faithful to the small little circle that God is placing my life. And these people are an extension to that, but they're not like within my circle, you know? Sure. And it's pretty interesting that you say that. I also had to be careful not to be so judgmental on my grandparents because I also understood that it was a different time and also, it was also a different time socio-economically. So, whereas in, you know, the 60s and 70s, you know, people in the African-American context weren't really affluent, you know? Didn't really have many opportunities. So, when they gave all their time and they tied and they gave their best to the church, they gave their time and their effort, their resources to the church, the pastor really felt the ownership of ensuring that people are progressing, people are moving forward, people are healthy, people have a provision. And so, whatever we need to do, let's just make it happen, but aware in a much different time, in that they're definitely much more resources outside of the church context. And we understood some of the damaging effects of operating in that way. Yeah, so like my parents, like they came from Korea, like in the early 80s and like they got saved here, like they want the church, but I always say like the Korean church is more like a community center, right? And I don't say that in a bad way. I think we should like understand the heart and follow the heart because again, they just really wanted to care for their people because they were being oppressed or like put down on social economically, but I think it's okay to push back on the methodology, right? It's like, oh yeah, we can do the same thing, but in a different way. No, definitely, it's important. We grow older, we learn better, and we try to be much more efficient, and we try to become a wiser without decisions and understand the damaging effect of some of the great intention at the end. So this is like the longest I went without like starting from the beginning, which is great, this is great context, you know? So like growing up in a household where like your grandparents are like pastors, like your parents are pastors and I get the whole, like I don't want to be a pastor because I don't want to be the family business. Like how did you come to faith? Like was it at a young age, at a older age, and then like what was the rebelliousness? Sure, sure, it's pretty funny to just say that. So yeah, most of my life, especially adolescent teenage years, early young adult years have been the fight against my last name, the fight for identity, you know? That's really kind of where the fight was. And so, you know, I got saved when I was 12. Never forget it was actually Thanksgiving service. So coming up on an anniversary, it just finished, you know, celebrating an anniversary there. But of course, when I went into high school, more so college, my rebellion was not in me kind of operating in a way that was outlandish or brought any shame to my parents name. I understood the weight of the assignment to be a pastor's kid in terms of a model somewhat. But intellectually, I would just, I would be all over the place. I would study everything, I would ask questions, but theologically, you know, there were some aspects that I was going into. I'm studying outside of the Christian context, new age, you know, belief systems, different things outside of the Christian context. And to be honest, my parents really didn't have an answer for it because I understood their context, I understood the Bible very well. But I also had all of this new information that was coming to me. And you know, that compiled with a lot of deaths in my family when we prayed for healing. I had three aunts that passed away from cancer in the minimum of five years apart, grandparents, you know, those foundational pillars passed away. And so I really struggled with my faith, really struggled to, you know, if a God that we pray to, doesn't answer our prayers, then what's the point? You know, if his will is going to be done either way, then what's the point of being committed to prayer or to the faith if it really merits very little. But I actually came to a place where, I had just a revelation and accounted with the Lord, I'm through my own prayer time. And the Lord really had a visitation of my bedroom. And it was great because it was outside of the church context because when you're a PK or a pastor's kid, you struggle to make, you know, distinguish between the spiritual aspect and community aspect or, you know, if my father's preaching or giving me a prophetic word or however he's used in part into me, I don't know if that's dad or pastor, you know, it's hard to kind of distinguish it too. So it was great that the Lord had to have his own encounter with me. And every time the Lord has, I've had a great encounter with the Lord where he has spoken to me and gave me vision for the future or given me instruction or what to do or even pastoring. Even after I gave my life to the Lord, recommitted, served for a while when my dad said, you know, I believe the Lord called you to this, the Lord had to show me himself. And so every encounter, every major encounter that I've had with the Lord has been personal and outside of the influence specifically of my father because the Lord knew that I needed to hear his voice and not confuse that with the voice of my dad or my mom. Yeah, that's something like I'm also realizing this year. So I was a pastor for 10 years and then I'm coming out more of like a reform tradition, which is like the polar opposite of your childhood experience. But I grew up quasi charismatic, but like, I realized like indoctrination, there's just like this double-ledged sword. We call it education or like teaching, but actually it's just indoctrination. And I'm not saying it's like literally a bad thing. I think it becomes a bad thing when like for me, it was like, oh, this is the truth and you better believe this. And there's no way to like test it. Or like their tests are like self-fulfilling prophecies, you know, of their own doctrine. And then I realized like, like two years ago, like I was like put in a corner just personally and so I was like, okay, I'm gonna start over. I don't know anything, right? So let's just start with Jesus. And then I went to like quantum physics and like history and like new things stuff and like any, like I went all over the place and I realized when you're on this journey and you like understand Jesus in a personal way through the scriptures, there is a voice, right? There is a language of like, right? And this sounds kind of like new agey, but like for me, it is an experience of like, this feels right to me, right? And the confidence for me for the feeling was like, it feels right because I feel more connected to Jesus. You know, and whenever he descriptors, it's like my life. Yeah, and the reason why I bring this up is because I have another hot take and I actually wanna get your thoughts on this, is that like for the longest time, like I grew up in church thinking like, oh, there's a pastor, he's preaching, he's teaching this like the truth and like all this stuff. But when I read the gospels, like I like listen to the gospels a lot, Jesus is like, you have one father, you have one teacher, Holy Spirit will teach you. And I feel like we've lost this connection, sometimes out of fear of like, oh, I'll teach you this, and this is what I'm experiencing. But you need to go to Lord and find out what you're hearing and that we'll come and test it with each other. And I feel like we don't have that kind of model of discipleship, it's always just this authoritarian, I'm here to tell you what the truth is, and you better follow it. So what are your thoughts on that? So it's Danny, it's so funny that you asked me that I was on a podcast, I mean on a panel last week, podcast style, panel last week. And one of the things that kind of invoked when I mentioned this during that telecast is that I think that most, a lot of church people are malnourished because they only eat on Sundays. And whether it is ego, whether it is lack of self awareness, I think that many pastors don't really empower people to do discipleship to know the Lord for themselves. And whether that keeps their churches full, the tithing buckets full, I don't know people still use tithing buckets, but it keeps the church back or full, or whether it's just ignorance, right? So properly disciples somebody means to draw them closer to the Lord. And whether the voice that the pastor, the shepherd, should yield, should be the voice of guidance. I mean Ephesians 4 says that he calls some apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers for the building of the body so that we're mature, we're not confused by every window doctrine. And so there is that guiding light, that guiding voice, and those anchors, right? The anchors and the insure that we don't go too far. So that's exactly correct. And I believe that the importance of the 5-0 ministry gives imperative to the maturing of the body of Christ. But I do believe that if our people are not really empowered to know the Lord for themselves, or really empowered to study the word for themselves, then we haven't positioned them well enough to really succeed in their Christian walk. The pandemic was literally a moment of revelation where many people were so lost. Many Christians were so lost because the churches closed down. Some pastors were great at streaming, some didn't. And some people were, many Christians were so lost because they had no direction. They had nowhere to go. Many pastors passed away. And just like my dad, my pastor in the pandemic, a lot of people were just solely the lost. And I was indicative of the lack of training and preparation that pastors and shepherds are giving to the sheep. Yeah, I completely agree with you. My theory, I'm more like a pessimistic figure. So you can push back. But my thought is like, again, I think it was more of this fear of like, oh, I don't want to lose my kids to the world. So I'm going to create these constraints. But it was like a method of control. And that's something I'm realizing more and more is that how can we create a safe space where we can foster trust over control, right? And even like guidance, I see more guidance as a direction of like, hey, you're going the wrong way. But like the prodigal son, I tell people, if they're on the wrong way, tell them to go faster, because it's a dead end anyway. And hopefully they'll run back. So what are your thoughts? So I actually have something I think is pretty cool to also assess. I think from a psychological sociological perspective, it is also the thinking that you have. I think it's apropos, and I think you're on part. I don't think that you're far reaching or even new age. But I also think it is a product, the thinking and the ideology is a product of the time. You think about in the 70s or 60s, you would believe a president. If a presidential candidate got up and said something to you and said that these are the numbers, or this is what's trending, or this is what's happening abroad, you would just believe them. You would just follow the day of law and order. What the authority states with authority figures state. And today we're not, we're not, we're very much a pessimistic society. We don't trust our government. We don't trust educational institutions. We don't trust colleges. We don't trust many people don't trust churches. And we have so much information at our fingertips that we need to adjust our model to lead people to the truth, not to force the truth. Because if you lead people to the truth, then people will have the realization that I came to this to myself. I've come to know God for myself, and I've had assistance kind of creating the foundation for me. But forcing the truth, it will not be sustainable. We're just not that generation anymore. I have something that's just human nature for us to rebel against any authority, right? There's good or bad. So I think that always needs to be in the backs of the mind. So that's a good transition to like, so you encounter the Lord. And at this point, are you still like being like, nah, I don't, I'm never gonna be a pastor or like, what happened? So it was the worst thing in the world that I told my father that I hadn't encountered with the Lord because things like, okay, minister. I was like, great, great. I was happy behind the drums, playing the drums and just being a musician. You know, every pastor's kid plays this some type of instrument or you're giving something to do. So like, it was the worst thing in the world. I told my father really fully dedicated. There was like minister elder. I was like, what did these titles come from? All of a sudden, I'm more dain than I'm wearing a collar and it was like, what's happening? But in terms of pastoring, so transparently, my other siblings are pastors as well. My dad, I'm the child of my dad's second marriage, but in his first marriage, all of his kids, well, out of three, two of them are pastors and you know, in the gospel community. And so for the youngest to be the pastor, that wasn't expected. It was expected. Maybe the others would take the church and my father said, like, for two years, three years, he was dealing with this. That, no, it's the youngest guy who's gonna succeed me. And I just didn't sit well with me. It didn't sit well with me with how he did it. It didn't sit well with me with kind of just the process of it all, right? And then also, the Lord didn't tell me. So, you know, in classic Alex fashion, I just went on a fast and said, hey, I can't accept this assignment unless the Lord tells me. Like, this is a lifelong assignment and I've seen it close up. Like, it's not like I have some dream and passion of pastoring and I see the seeds and I see the pulpit. I'm just like, let's go and I'm super excited to do this because I see all the sacrifice I see. You know, my parents and grandparents have given to people who walk away from them, who kind of mistreat them. I've experienced it all. Church hurt is, you know, a lot of people in the pew talk about this concept of church hurt. There's no church hurt like a pastor being hurt, you know, when they give their all. When they're sincere, like really good leaders and they give their all, they're kind of burnt by those same people they give to. And so, I had a really jaded view of pastoring. And so, I went in prayer. I had like this crazy, Danny, like I had this crazy Ezekiel-like experience. I was taken from my room and shown a new vision of the church. I showed the church with diverse, diverse faces. I was on a pulpit, so a diverse faces. So, the church reconstructed and then saw these initials that said, I came up out of the vision. I said, what is this? Maybe I need to eat something. I've been fasting too a long time, whatever. Whatever is happening to me. But the Lord revealed to me like the initials institutional international ministry has matched what I saw in the vision. So, I just waited a little bit and then I let my father know I said, okay, the Lord showed me this vision. But there's something I'm gonna have to do. That's controversial. Two things I'm gonna have to, if I'm gonna accept this calling, I'm gonna have to change the name of the church. I'm gonna have to leave our denomination. And our church is a legacy church. So, there's like 50 churches that were groomed. So, one of our mentors, Reverend A. Auburnard, CCC, A. Auburnard was groomed by my grandfather. He came out of our church. And so, like, he kinda speaks to the weight of that place. So, to leave, Kojik changed the name was blasphemy. But I had the audacity, a little bit of ignorance and just obedience to do so. And my father said, you know, if that's what the Lord gave you. So, in 2017, we officially, you know, changed everything under his leadership and that he transitioned me to pastoring in 2019. So, it's been a rollercoaster to say the least, to be kind. There's a saying, courage is when you know the hard and painful thing and you do it anyway. Yeah. But that's also the same definition for foolish. And that's why life is hard. It doesn't seem like it was a little bit ignorance, faith, you know, however you wanna call it. Depending on who you're speaking to, they'll give it one of those labels. No, but that's why, like, I love the fact that, like, you've fast said and you literally, like, wanted to hear from the Lord, right? Because, like, I now, like, I'm a foreign believer, like, hearing God's voice. At this point, I've never heard it audibly, but just like, this assurance, you know? There's no way I'm gonna do this unless he's gonna bless it. And that's like the only incentive I have, I'm like, I've read Jonah way too much. I'm like, nope, I have to do this. Okay, let's go. So, yeah, I totally get it. Yeah, Mark Batterson has a really good book on hearing the voice of the Lord really impacted me and really finding a still place outside. And for me, most people, their context, I need to find my way to the church. For me, it's, I need to be in solitude away from the context because the church context represents not only spirituality, but also community and also family. So, there's a whole bunch of, there's this element of family legacy that is kind of tied into all of this. And so, that was also another thing, you know, do I wanna take on this family legacy and leading this historic church, you know? And also, the church is popular because in its Pentecostal charismatic context, the church, I had a huge popular choir, the institutional radio choir, you can Google them, they had 28 albums, gold records, all this stuff, really popular choir. But where I was taking the church was slightly different. So, didn't also didn't wanna feel like I was disrespecting the legacy and moving away. But I knew that eventually we'll record again and do all that great stuff, but I knew that we needed to strike out on what the Lord was saying. And yeah, I got a lot of heat. I mean, and that's being kind. And I mean, people were hurt. They were angry at my dad that I would, they would allow me to do it, you know. There was a lot of controversy with changing it, but again, foolishness, courage, regardless of the two, I know that it was with the Lord. I'd strike the beauty of it. The church is thriving and doing well. Yeah, I consider that like the furnace moment. I'm like, all right, I'm gonna burn, but hopefully I'll burn to a crisp, not come back, okay? But it's like the Hebrew boys that are like, if we die, we die. Yeah, yeah, and Daniel was like, it is what it is. Yeah, and like you're mentioning, like I realized that's also why you need voices inside your bubble and outside your bubble. Again, I'm going through the gospels a lot. And like Jesus was like, you guys are too needy. I need to go to a desolate place where no one knows what I'm doing. And only this year I'm coming to terms that there's a difference and it's more of a perception that like one man's loneliness is another man's solitude. Yeah, this is what I like. This is where I like the whole imagery of like the Superman and the fortress solitude where like he's talking to its father and we are talking to our father. It's just like, oh, there's this like beautiful thing where like being on a loan actually is like a saving grace. Yeah, I mean, Jesus clearly in a text, he knew the capacity of those who were following him. He knew the capacity of the crowd. So after he would do and feed and teach it in part, he would leave the crowd. He knew the capacity of the 12th. He knew the capacity of the three. You know, Peter James John, when he was crucified, there was only one there. You know, the beloved John, okay, look after my mom. But you know, when he's in the garden, he's by himself, just him and his father. And so he knew the capacity of each group. And so he had the even place boundaries there. So what was that process like? So you tell your dad, okay, we're gonna change the name and like, get out of the damn nomination. Like, what were the steps? Because I think that's a really good story or like a good like case study of like, how to transition out of this traditional mindset into a new thing. So like the one last thing is like, the theme of like new wine is coming up a lot. And I feel like that's what happened to you guys. You guys created a new wine scheme. Yeah, it was a lot of, it's a case study of what to do and what not to do. So my dad is a classic charismatic pastor, makes announcements over the pulpit. Does that have like crazy board meeting? He makes a decision, the Intel is the board. So yeah, it's like case study of what not to do with the meat undoing and having to redo and having to do over a lot of the things that he did from, you know, the churches, when you have a non-profit status and you have things that need to be governed in a certain way, you have to reduce certain things. And so it's, my story is a case study of what not to do with my dad was like kind of like didn't do, didn't communicate this the right way. So you know, you also have other people who feel like they're in position to be the next leader. And so it caused controversy there. It caused the church split. It was bad. My dad's last four years just through decisions and just different things he had about four church splits. And so at my grandfather's height, the church had thousands of members. And my dad's height, the church had hundreds of members. When I took the church, I had 15 people there, 10, 10, 15 people. And so it was literally building and starting over. But now I realize that it was necessary in what we were charting now. And it had to literally, we really, literally needed to hit the reset button. And so it is literally a case study of my dad saying, okay, you're called to do this. You know, kind of makes an announcement, but there's a church split that happens right before that. And it becomes a whole big thing. And I take the church. And he, my dad at the time also is dealing with sickness, kidney failure, renal failure. So he's also sick, frail. And so my mom is trying to help the navigate. She is one of the pastors in the church, trying to help navigate me. And so for two years between 2017 and 2019, I put a five point revitalization plan in the church. So we were revitalizing the church to goal in those next two years, because my installation was gonna be in 2019, was to revitalize the church legally, administratively, legally administratively, financially, from a cultural standpoint, and then also spiritually changing the culture. So it's like turning the soil over. And we saw certain people who were there, trying to linger, figuring out what it was gonna be, then most of the people left. And so we had a good base of 15 people. And then when I took the church 2019, the church grew 162 members of first year, which was great. I was like, all right, we're doing well. We're growing 162 members of first year, hyper growth. Great. And next year, pandemic hits, my father passes, all this stuff happens. So it becomes haywire. And now the church is like really rebuilding, getting back to where the same momentum that we had in 2019. So, but yeah, my story is a case study of what not to do in terms of succession, and some key areas of what to undo or what to look out for. Or for a person like me who's going to come into this seat, you know, for me to tell somebody, make sure these things are in place before you get there. Make sure, you know, the board is all apart. And on the same page, make sure the board is assembled, having regular meetings. Make sure that there is an actual plan that is ironed up before the congregation as what this, this succession look like. What are the timing, what's the timing of this? What does this mean? And actually having meetings outside of just having church and making announcements. And so, yeah, I could definitely design and build a case study on this exactly. In most lessons, you learn based on the failures not on the successes. So, yeah. Yes, that's true. However, I feel like no one documents it because it's not a glorified thing. It's like writing down all your failures, but like it's so useful. So like, if you ever like wrote an article, I'm like, how you would do it differently. I think it would be amazing. Yeah, it's so funny. I need to. I need to just do an op-in on it, just like kind of posted somewhere and kind of figure out exactly how we can make succession something that is not painful. I mean, whether the context is the charismatic church, evangelical church, the Pentecostal context, we're seeing kind of this, the baton being dropped in every context. You know, you see ego there, jealousy there, you see feuding there, family squabbles there, financial issues there, not really preparing the congregation. When you have a church, like my church, where you have, it's three generations of churches and you have somebody who's been there, their entire family's been there for years. You have to prepare them to hear a new voice. You have to prepare them to go into a new direction. And then ensure that every change is not happening all at the same time. You know, you may want to change to board around one year and then change the service style a different year. And then if you want to, if you're one of those churches that add lights and that you may change it, like doing it all at once is, I have this concept that when you are shepherding on any aspect, you need to lead them, not leave them. And I think that many times with changes and certain things that we do and certain changes that we make in churches, we leave people, we don't leave them. Yeah, it's funny because I'm reading through first kings and I'm like, oh, it's not a church problem, it's a session. It's a human problem because everyone wants to play the game of thrones. Right? And they're not like, they're not literally killing each other by killing reputation and dividing. And yeah, now it's real. First of all, shout out to House of Dragon, my wife and I are finishing the second season right now. So we have, I'm catching her up a little bit. But yeah, it's the same concept, but who's going to bend the knee? Who's going to kiss the ring? When we actually understand it, we're not building empires, we're building God's kingdom. Like, and I think that's a distinction. Like we're not called to build our own empires, we're called to build God's kingdom. And as soon as we get to that place, we'll realize, hey, if a member goes to another church, hey, we're on the same team, you know, maybe they need something different, maybe I was useful in a certain aspect in their life, or say if somebody wants to start their own ministry, or say if somebody just decides to, hey, I'm moving, or say, hey, this person mentions, hey, I can't come to the church every day or come every Sunday, because I also work and I also do these other things. I think that when we approach, you know, as kingdom, we're not so caught up in membership size and who belongs to us, we're not tagging and associating people with our churches, more so, or identifying people, branding people with our denominations or with our name, we're pushing the message of Jesus Christ when we're claiming the kingdom, rather than claiming our church. And I think that we really, our, this day and age, we're really, we're serving a generation that really seeks to serve the Lord. And they're really trying to find Jesus, not to find religion or your church. That's why you keep bringing up the whole ego thing, because when I heard sheep stealing, I'm like, they're not your sheep, but they can go wherever they want. What maybe they're just a bad shepherd. It's a real thing. I mean, the fact that they say sheep stealing is probably indicative of, you know, it's so funny, literally as we're speaking, I'm going through a process with another pastor where it's pretty interesting. One of my mentors has really kind of instilled in me the importance of celebrating people who's serving a church even when they decide to leave. So this one individuals, this could be a case study as well. This one individual, they just felt like their time's up in our church and we celebrated them the honor to him because of his years of service that he went to join the Ministry of Virginia and did well there, post pandemic, you know, he's got a raise on his job up here, decided to take on that role and that job and he's joining our church back again this month and had a conversation with his previous pastor and we just dialogue, it was amazing. And I don't think I've even had an experience like that where somebody comes from another church or, you know, or this and we have such a healthy dialogue. And I think it's important to kind of see this as a way kingdom should be. Like if somebody decides that, you know, this church meets their needs or this ministry meets their needs and maybe we don't meet their needs, you know, then we're okay with it. We're not, this is not a sheep stealing. This is, we're building God's kingdom. So whatever's going to help propel people to where they need to be, that's where they need to be, you know, and kind of being okay as a shepherd saying, hey, this church may not be for you and that's okay. You know, there's a, I know a church down the street that I think would be perfect for you. Doing that I think shows the true heart of today's pastor. Yeah, I'm a firm believer now that kingdom doesn't expand. It extends because it's the relationships, right? So like we keep thinking church is a building or a location, but it's like, no, it's the people gathering there. And one thing like, so like I always wanted to get a church planting. I don't know if that's going to happen because like I see a lot of crazy things, which is why I kept saying this like a Joe Rogan podcast. So I'm the internet is fine with church people, but I think it's an amazing story when people leave, right? And they work at another church and they're like, where did you learn that? Like you're so helpful. And then they refer back to your church. Yeah, right. And so yeah, and so you're like fostering, and that's what discipleship is. Like we're raising you up to go out, right? Not to hold you in. Yeah, I mean, there's too many lids placed on gifts in the kingdom. And yeah, I've heard a lot of horror stories when it comes to church planting. I think that there's too many, too much emphasis, and I'm just going to be really transparent. I think that there's too much emphasis placed on numbers rather than the quality of the ministry that you're presenting, the quality of discipleship, and the quality of the heart. The quality of the heart is something that's not really spoken about, where I've gone to a lot of pastoral conferences and there's a lot of models to growth and to grow your numbers, but not really a lot on, you know, your heart. I think that one is that one conference that I've attended that's been very unique in that. It's 30 for 30. I was invited by Reverend Bernard and Reverend Adam Dorso. Adam's a great friend of mine. And there's kind of like this really great dynamic of the season generation and the next generation and them colliding. And there's really great nuance and conversation between how to, you know, from the younger generation, how to be more efficient, innovative, but then from the older generation, the impartation to us is not just on how big your church is because the individuals who are at the elder statesmen have seen, they build large churches, they've been there, but it's really more so focused on the posture of your heart and how's your family? How's your wife? Your church is big, but how are your kids, you know? Church is great, but how's your character, you know? And I think that's a different approach and something that I've seen unique in that context rather than some of the others that I've been a part of. Yeah, another hot take is like, I'm like so confident now that the kingdom is just vibes. Like literally, and it's more of like, are you a vibesetter, or are you trying to create an environment with lights and sound and structures, but like, it's because you're cold, you know? Yeah, it's so crazy because like when you study, there's a concept that, hey, he added to the church daily, but, you know, that wasn't like every person who planting the church blew up, you know? He added to the church of Jesus Christ daily, right? God added to the church, his church, his body daily. And so when Paul goes to Asian Minerables, different places, modern day turkeys, establishes core wrath or filipier. Like they're all different cultures, they're all different expressions, which is probably why Paul writes to them all differently. He has hard headed church core wrath, and then he has such a lighthearted letter written to the church of filipine. And so you see like these different dynamics and different cultures, and he's two different places, but also still the leading to the same God and fostering great community within both of these contexts. And I think that is important for us to kind of realize where we are, church in New York City will not be like church in South Carolina, so why compare yourself? You know, will not be like the churches in Atlanta. And so how do you foster and steward the communities that you're in, right? What needs are you meeting there that are different from some of the Midwestern states, or the Southern states? And that's why it's important to, you know, in the whole church planting context that, you know, you take models, you see certain things that may be great, but also really praying and discerning, you know, where you are and what are the needs there? Because what's working in some other, forget what's working in terms of numbers, what's really supporting that community there may not support New York City. New York City is very unique. So to try to do in New York, what they do in Ohio is not going to be applicable, you know? I think one thing that I realized that like, I didn't realize until I got out of my letter conservative bubble is that understanding his tone, the letters, Paul's letters is actually really hard, because I only understood it one way, because that's how I was taught. Yeah, yeah. Because like Paul is like literally like the fourth person of like the Trinity's, the conservative side, but he literally says in cross, like, it's not about me or Paul is sort of like, what is going on just as long as it's about Jesus? And like, I don't know. So that's why I've just really simplified it of that need. Like there's something like you, like this whole podcast, you started off with a fight for identity, right? And a lot of times identity is just in a name, like what does that name mean? Like, and in a person like what, like what, like it's like a Pandora's box of like, oh, what's inside that name? There's like a history and personality and like baggage and all that. So yeah, I just come back to like, again, this is like my quantum physics rabbit hole of like the singularity is just in a name. And if the name is Jesus, like I find it funny all the time, because I listen to Joe Rogan a lot, he was like, Jesus Christ. And like, oh, hey, you're in the podcast. Just the fact that he's saying the name and someone might take offense to it, but for me, I'm like, oh, yeah, thanks for seeing my Lord's name in the end. The endorsement, you don't even realize this is an endorsement. Yeah. Yeah, I realize like, like God is literally using everything and I'm not the saviors, I need to relax and just enjoy this ride. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. And to that point, you know, because I, and it's, it's this fifth year of me pastoring the five official year, has fifth official years been such a freeing year. It's the first time, I'll be honest, that I've actually enjoyed pastoring. I've enjoyed seeing the growth of people. I've taken off the pressure of building, because sometimes like you go to other, these conferences, you go to these workshops and you see success stories, or you're, especially if you're a pastor on social media, it's like a death trap of comparison. Like you literally see what everybody's doing and secretly like, spirit of covenantness is like growing. It's already rooted there and it's growing in your heart. But this is the first year, like my wife and I come, we're having a great time. We're having a blast seeing the spiritual growth of people, you know, seeing where they start off here and it's seeing they're going here. Now they're stepping out doing this and now they're witnessing to their family members and now they're launching out, doing some things, launching nonprofits or just other things that's been a blast and taking that pressure off, like my ministry needs to look like this or needs to have this accelerated growth in this amount of time. Taking that pressure away has really purified my heart as well. And I don't think that many pastors are as, if we were to all be honest, like in transparent, like the desire for growth has like consumed us. And I think that we need to really get back to a pure place. I've just went into the loss. You know, one of the things that we've started doing in our ministry is literally going into the community. Like we're claustrophobic by now, right? There's our fourth and fifth time service outside of our church door just on the street. We did something two months ago called church and a court. We went to the housing community, Whitman Houses shut down the basketball court, did service there and then did a basketball tournament there, like right after we baptized in August outside, we just closed on our doors, did something called stooped errors, had our neighbors sit on the stoop, baptized in the street. Like it's like, let's get out. We're just indoctrinating people, preaching to the same people, but there's a whole world of people out there who are not saved. There's a whole world of Christians who don't know how to properly witness to somebody, the love of Christ, the compassion of Christ, you know, because it's many times seen as dogmatic, legalistic, but how have we really trained and, you know, tall people to be true disciples of Christ? You know, you don't have to have the title of evangelist. You know, everybody's not gonna be on the train with some way of preaching, you know, but how can you be a witness on your job? How can you give somebody hope who just had death in their family? How can you mentor a young person and plan to see that their life will be impacted because you took time? You know, and I think that's what's really about. And so this level of ministry going in this direction has been a joyful experience. You know, every ministry has its highs and lows, stressful days, longer days, but it's, this is this year I've been having a blast and I haven't been able to say that in the previous years, I mean, leading a church. Yeah, life principle I have now is like, I don't listen to people have less joy than me, right? Because the gospel is literally good news of great joy. Yeah. And I realize, wait, but like, I was in joyful as a Christian that fell something wrong. And I mean, I might edit this out, but so between you and me, like, there was a period where like, I started over, like, I got pissed off because I was like, you guys liked me, right? The version of Christianity that I was taught was so joyless and so indoctrinated and like, it's a ritual based, like, I was miserable and I always thought I was a problem. But now on the other side of like, just freedom and joy in Christ, like, I see like how everyone else is still in that like bubble of like, I have to do this because, and this is part I would add in is that, I think what's lost in discipleship is that it's not just training, right? It's practice. It's a way of life, right? And so everything you described is like, no, I'm being in a normal person in my job in my neighborhood. And when I see someone down, I'm giving them life, but not just in like a positivity way, but in like, hey, God will make this better. And if not, there is a better story after all of this, too. Yeah, I can't tell you. I don't know what it is about maybe the season of my life or just the community that I'm finding myself in. And the last two months, I've done three separate trainings and three different areas on discipleship, whether it be digital discipleship, whether it be just kind of like outreach initiatives and discipleship. And you realize how many people are just even nervous about spreading good news. I've never, you know, there's never been a time where there's good news in years afraid or have trepidation spreading it. It's because it's been presented to us in such a dogmatic way. But, you know, if you know that they're having a sale down at the store or there's a, you know, they're giving out free items that you're happy to tell people about this, you know, and salvation is a gift that's free. You know, like you should be thrilled to tell people about it. But I think that because we don't present it the right way, we don't identify those opportunities to really spread the gospel. Or maybe we put too much pressure on ourselves to be theologians. When in actuality, good news doesn't take much. It takes honesty, truth, transparency and boldness and most of all love and compassion. That length really makes you slow down into consumable chunks. At the end of the day, like, Jesus is hung out with like 12 dudes, you know, for three and a half years, you know? So like, I feel like that's also lost is that we forget discipleship isn't just like transferring this information. It's like, like, let's talk about this. What's going on? Like practical, yeah. Yeah, I mean, even like the story of the young man who was vexed with a demonic spirit and Jesus comes from them, comes down from the mountain of transfiguration. And, you know, they can't cast out the demon or the spirit and Jesus cast it out and they wait till they go to dinner later on and they're like, hey, man, like, why won't we be able to cast the spirit out? You know, he's able to say, hey, these things, I mean, embarrasses them a little bit. He says in faithless generation, embarrasses, he's like, you guys are making me look bad in front of him. But, you know, but taking that time that even with that moment of rebuke, there's a moment and opportunity for discipleship and learning and growth at the dinner table, right? When he has time to pour into them and spend time and sit with them. And he has time to use this as a teaching moment. And so even, whether it be, you know, Jesus walking on water or him being in the boat and the other context where the sees are raging and they know him as teacher, but then he, they learn him as savior protector. There's always opportunities for them to learn and Jesus is always pushing the disciples into positions where they have to learn. And so he empowers them to go out two by two, but he also empowers them in lessons and time. And I think the other thing for the big church model where we miss this is that Jesus disciples 12. He doesn't disciple the crowd, you know? He disciples 12 and the 12 go out and minister to others. And I think that we've kind of gotten that loss. We look at numbers, not look at the fact that, hey, Jesus spent time, intimate time with others. Because he knew that it would take that closeness and that time and that intimacy to really impact the life. A couple of the last questions, I'm super curious as to one, like how you made a wife, because I'm just always interested. And then two, her learning that your third generation, like your moms, like your parents or pastors, like was there any like, whoa, like do I want to date this guy? So the funniest thing I never ever, I literally swore off of it. After I became a pastor, I said, is no way I'm marrying another minister of the gospel. My wife is a pastor. She's a like a vice president of a company called Guidepost magazine. I don't know if you've ever heard of it. Norma Vinds' appeal has like this brand that he launched years ago. So she works in there. Her whole life is God. And I was like, literally, I don't want to marry a minister of the gospel, let alone pastor a church. I resolved that I was pastor, okay. But my wife and I met because we both had to minister at a conference and I had they separated the men and women. It was a huge, you know, huge organization. And I spoke to the men, she spoke to the women. Same conference and then they did a panel at the end and brought us both sitting at the table to answer questions. So that's how we met. And we just, honestly, hit it off. We hit it off as friends. At the time I was dating somebody. So yeah, there was no nothing going on there. And then, you know, we meet my girlfriend on the rocks kind of rocking. And then one day I kind of look at her and I was like, man, what about this person? But then, you know, the constant reminded that she's a preacher and yeah, this is not going to work. And so we fought, fought on it for years. Went back and forth for a little bit, went through some marital counseling finally and resolved that we belong together. And the pressure coming into this context because even though my wife is a minister of the gospel, she comes from every, you know, she also like has this nickname called sneaker preacher. So she's like this girl, she's a real petite girl that's like radical, but at the same time, where sneakers, not into the traditional kind of church model in that sense, right? In terms of how she views ministry. And then she comes into mind and sees that, like, I come from this lineage of church, right? This church has all this profound history. She doesn't really know much about it. And so everybody says, wow, you're coming into this church. Wow, you're going to be, and she's like, she has no awareness of where I come from really. The weight, the weight of it. But what I love about it is that my wife didn't allow it to impress her and she didn't take on that weight to say, okay, I'm coming as the dirt generation of what's in her. She didn't, none of that stuff really mattered to her. She loved me. And we both just so happened to be ministers of the gospel. And we now work together in ministry, which is great. But on top of that, she just didn't allow that pressure or she's not, number one, my wife is not easily impressed by anything, just great. She was an easily impressed by me or even when I thought I was somebody, she was kind of like, okay, that's so great. So I had to really work to get her affection. But what's really great is that we became friends and we became best friends and then started dating. And then, you know, worked for years towards this process. We met in 2018, dated in 2019, married in 2023, shout out to Reverend A. Auburnard and some of our other mentors who helped to counsel us and walk through this. There was an interesting process. But we would, and also like these church influences and what a pastor should be and what a first lady should be, quote, unquote, false lady, what this process should be. I would get advice to say, don't marry a preacher. You're going to be fighting over the mic. It's that advice here and there. So it was all over the place. But it was great that we had sound guidance and a lot of that religiosity was still pouring in. And so her and I both fight even in our day in our ministry now and in our personal lives, distinguishing between legalism, dogmatic practices, really trying to find the fruitfulness of the gospel and what he's calling for his church. And so it's always a fight, especially when you've been indoctrinating. She grew up, she grew up the first church she grew up and it was heavily, it was a denomination called Apostolic, right? She grew up Apostolic. So heavy, you know, they didn't affirm women preachers. And so she went through all of that, you know, so that tradition as well. So undoing has been a lot of both of our journeys together undoing and unlearning and finding a happy medium and a balance. It's kind of crazy, like even for my home timeline, like all the stuff that's been happening, like post pandemic, because you know, like the big thing on the liberal app that's like being woke, but I'm like, we're not woke, we're like waking up, you know? Yeah, yeah. And I feel like God is really waking up people who grew up in an older, like more, like the tradition of the fathers, that's what Jesus says all the time, I'm like, that's so legit. And it's refreshing because like, yeah, there was a period where I thought I'm gonna be a prophet and like, like condemn, you know, both sides, because I understand like bad in the both sides. But I'm like, no, Danny, just chill out. See what God's doing, he just love people and like have good vibes because like, yeah, I think one thing that social media and like just media in general just pollutes my mind is that things are so bad, but that's in the world, right? In the church, we're being renewed day by day. Yeah. Like me, like hearing your story and meeting us like you, yeah, it's just a refreshing reminder that like, no matter how bad things get, inflammation-wise and news-wise, like, God is doing something amazing with his people. Yeah, there's always a remnant, you know? Like even when your church started with remnant and like a mustard seed and a grueling. So like, yeah. I have more. I think it was always important to remember that and then also understand like, you give yourself grace that we're still figuring it out. I'll say this in true transparency as a like African American pastor, I love the Lord with all of my heart. There's certain values and principles that I will never deny and never get rid of, but also I'm an African-American gentleman. So election time was a time where we really had to like, sit back. There were some agendas on both sides that I just didn't agree with. Not to go politically, but they were just certain things on both sides. They didn't agree with. So where do I land? Where do I? And it's important to really have to, you know, settle yourself having true conversation with yourself and then be responsible with what you say across that open. Because you're literally, you know, influencing the sit to decisions of people who sit under your teaching and giving yourself grace and time to say, I don't know until you're sure. I think it's great, you know. Realizing like you are an authority figure, but you're not the authority. And so giving yourself grace, I think it's really vital as well as we're growing, waking up, right? So to say evolving, growing, but also still knowing where those anchors are, but things move beyond principle value and those things that will sustain you. What are you hoping for, Faithly? Yeah, I'm looking forward to connecting with people who are just, who are similar to me and within the same context and different. In terms of, like, just like LinkedIn, right? You want to find people in your field who you can relate with, you can share stories, you can share information, but also people outside of your context that can stretch you and expand you, right? So for Faithly, just looking for some leaders who are maybe in the New York area that I don't know, you know, some of the things that you're doing, some of the things that are working. And just how you're balancing life, I know that I'm bivocational, I still work in corporate America, plus past or plus husband and father. So how do you balance this, right? How do you live? So finding some other people, share those stories and share those experiences with, then also some people outside of my context that I can kind of just connect with and also learn about and, you know, connect. I think I'm a person that just lives off connection. So Faithly is the perfect platform for me. And how can we be praying for you and your family? Yeah, I think that 2025 is going to be a very interesting year. My wife and I are working under the child. So yeah, you can pray there, pray for my strength. But just also pray for our community. We're into Fort Green, our church is in a Fort Green Clinton Hill community. Just praying that there's a bit more unity there with a lot of different elements, whether it be the concept of gentrification, the migrant population in our communities, a lot of dynamics within that Fort Green Clinton Hill Brooklyn community, a lot of different socioeconomic representations within the same community, like it's beyond crazily. Down the street, you have NYCHA and then right up the street in our block, we don't have a house worth less than $2.2 million. So like the nuances are there, which causes a bit of friction and tension. And so we're trying to find the best way of meeting the needs of both, you know, of all communities in that area and our goal is to really foster our grace and to community there. So prayers for that, how we can expanding further, unify our community. And then for my family, it just, you know, prayers for the health of our family and for a balance. I think for us, we kind of feel a little stretched, definitely prayers for more balance. Okay, thanks for coming to the podcast. Subscribe. Thank you, Danny. Appreciate it. Bye, guys. Bye. Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement. You needed to continue on your journey. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff, and volunteers. The Faithly Digital Platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection, foster collaboration, and promote growth within the church and ministry space. Remember to subscribe, rate, and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you. 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