When the Lord Clearly Speaks - Ann Bayliss

When I reached out to his wife for another area, she answered the phone, and as we started talking, she knew that she had not returned my phone call, so she was apologetic, and I had a choice. I could just accept that and keep my mouth shut, or I could say no, I know where you've been because the Lord told me. And so I said to her, it's okay, the Lord told me Matt was in the wilderness, and as soon as I said that she burst into tears, and she said, how did you know? I'm Ann Bayless, I live in Houston, Texas, and I've been a member at a church that was dying that has been revived, and I was the spiritual life minister there. So it's been an interesting journey these past ten years, and this is my faithfully story. Welcome to Faithfully Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders, as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life. Join us as we delve into their challenges, moments of encouragement, and answered prayers. The Faithfully Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithfully, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff, and volunteers. Learn more at Faithfully.co. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired, as we unveil the heart of faith through stories from the frontlines of ministry on the Faithfully Stories podcast. I'd like to just start by asking you how do you know Alicia? It was very blessed to share an Uber by the grace of God. I thought it was our Uber and it wasn't Alicia said, well you can take it with us. And as we were in the car together, we started talking about what the Lord can do. And encouragement between Christians is so important. And to tell one another our stories like we're doing right now, that's how I met Alicia. It was in the backseat of an Uber, and it was a God moment. Oh, this was at Orange Conference, right? It was. We were at the Orange Conference, which was interesting because I'm not a children's minister. And I had never really taught kids. So to be there, it was all new to me. And then to me, Alicia, and to hear about what she and you were putting together was very exciting to me because it's fast forward thinking. It is so important that Christians keep connected. And I'm an outgoing person. I don't have a problem talking to anybody, but I think today using the internet to get people to get their stories out is brilliant. What were you doing in Orange? I was there to learn how to minister to two year olds. I, as our church that I go to has been on the rebound. It died out and there were no children. And we prayed for children. We prayed. We hired nursery workers. We prayed. We had nursery workers and of children. We prayed. And then when the children started coming in, those of us who were praying said, well, we have to step up. It's not just enough to pray. You have to show up. And so I've been used to working with adults. I do spiritual direction and teach spiritual disciplines. And I don't know how to do two year olds, even though my children are in their 30s. That's what I was doing at Orange. And that's, that was a blessing for me. What was it like to be in the new ministry context? Oh my goodness. Being in a new ministry context where you're used to having intellectual conversations with adults where the feedback is immediate and you're with two year olds who are bilingual. But even when they speak English, I can't understand. And we're singing and we're doing little stories. And it's wonderful because I still have to trust God as much for the two year olds as I do for the adults. And so that's the same. The difference is the delivery. Yeah. I was a preschool director at our church. And I had to do like the sermons because we had service like three times a week. And then it's kind of weird that when you have to condense like a sermon into like five minutes at one point, it actually gets a lot harder. You know, because when you're older, you can like over-explain things. And so that's kind of like what I learned a valuable lesson about keeping things simple. But for you, like what have you been learning in children's ministry? I have learned that all ministry, regardless of what it is, is about whoever is right in front of you. And the lesson that I learned yesterday thinking about working with babies is that I'm almost 70 and I will probably never see the fruits of what I'm doing today. But there will be fruits from it. There are children that will take away some kind of feeling that God loves them. And Jesus wants to be their friend. And I don't know who that person was. I don't know what we were doing, but I remember singing this song. And that was kind of a profound thought to me. Is that whoever is in front of you, whether it's in the back seat of an Uber? And you're talking to a really wonderful brilliant adult. Are you looking at a two-year-old? It's the same. We are we are planting seeds for the fruit of the kingdom. Let's exciting. So one of the things I had to navigate through with such young children were dealing with parents. Anyone who's watching this, most of you were amazing, but there were some challenges. I'm just curious as to what kind of challenges you faced with parents and like how did you navigate those? We have a very small children's group and I know all the parents they've known me since before their children were born. Most of them. Oh wow. There's a lot of trust built up between us. And the trust that that you have between parents has to be spent. If you can, anytime you can. Whether it's before church, just touch and base or having coffee with them. Being real and authentic as a Christian so that they read your life from a distance, I think that's really important. And the love of Christ should always lead. And you know, I've made mistakes. I've done things that were quite frankly just dumb. You know, we all do those things, but that's where a grace comes in. I'm glad you said. Great. I love the parents. I'm so glad you said that. I realized early on the fear most parents had was will you take care of my child? Because they're like handing them off, right? And so yeah, in the beginning, I had to really, really put my money where my mouth was, right? And luckily, like I had some reputation because I did like the VBS because I also did children's. So they gave me the benefit of that and communication with the parents was always important to let them know like, hey, I'm really here for you and your kids. Yeah. So trust it. All right. Trust is everything. I just want to backtrack a little bit and talk about the church you were talking about. You said there were no children. What happened? It was an old church in an urban area in Houston that had died really. I mean, I had to say it. It's it died out. Could you elaborate on what you mean by died? Oh, wow. It was it's a hundred year old building and the people aged in place with it. And so as people got older, they refused to adapt in many ways and people moved away from that area of town for many reasons. And so the attendance in this church went down to almost nobody. And it's it's a hundred years old. It takes a lot to maintain a building like that. So if you're 90, you're not going to be having little kids, right? And so as they moved away, there were several people that said, this is the Lord's house. Let's let's get together. And I came in part time because that's all that church could afford. I was never in ministry professionally before. I've always been in ministry, not professionally. And when I came in, I remember saying to the leadership there, there's 20 of us. There's 20 people, maybe 25, and a third of the people in our congregation are from the street. They were homeless or fresh out of prison. And I said, I don't know what we can do, but we need to pray. And one of our brilliant leaders said, well, let's start right now. So every Wednesday night for the past 10 years, we've had an intercessory prayer meeting and we've literally prayed for everything. So for five years, we didn't have children. We had mostly people who were dedicated college students and young adults. And then there were people like my husband and I who were older who came to the church to hold space for the Holy Spirit to say, we are going to hold this ground for the Lord. And we didn't have any money and we did not have any hope except in Christ. And that's a wonderful place to be. We would do things like paint the hallway and then our, but our elevator was broken. And we would say, well, Lord, we painted the hallway. What are you going to do? Literally, if we had $400 in the bank, we were really lucky. And while we were praying, it really felt like the Lord was saying to me, there was, and I was the minister at the time. I was the pulpit minister in the last two years. And I felt like the Lord was saying there was a man that he was calling to be the pulpit minister at this church. So we started praying for him and his wife. He had recently left a mega church, a thousand member church. And we started praying for him. And the more we prayed for them because we just had a compassion for them, we found out they moved into our neighborhood. So as we were praying for them and I'm feeling like the Lord wants to call him. I shared this with a minister friend of mine that knew him. And I remember him saying to me, oh, well, can you afford him? And I first got laughing and went, no, no, no, no. But here's what I know. And I know this when the Lord calls and the Lord orders he pays. And he will do that every time. He didn't expect me to do it. And so I continued to pray. We reached out to this brother. And he just would never call us back. His wife would never call us back. And I did that. I had imposter syndrome. He's a mega preacher. I'm kind of not anybody, right? I'm in this little tiny rundown church. And so one day I was on the freeway praying for him. And I really got mad at the Lord. And I said to him, because I knew Matt was selling cars. And I didn't know they were hiring cars. But I said, Lord, he wasn't born and called to be a car salesman. He was called to be a minister. And I heard the Lord very, very, very clearly. And he said to me, he's in the wilderness. Okay. We will pray a different way. So we just started praying for him. And a little bit later on when I reached out to his wife for another area, she answered the phone. And as we started talking, she knew that she had not returned my phone call. So she was apologetic. And I had a choice. I could just accept that and keep my mouth shut. Or I could say, no, I know where you've been because the Lord told me. And so I said to her, it's okay. The Lord told me Matt was in the wilderness. And as soon as I said that, she burst into tears. And she said, how did you know? And the Lord had told them they were in the wilderness. The Lord told me that they were in the wilderness. And that's how the Lord built this bridge. And so before Matt came, we had people out of prison who were sex offenders. So we had people who should never have been around children in my first place. But they needed a place to come. And we loved them. We loved every single one of them. When Matt came, the time for the church at that time was we're going to build the church for the neighborhood now. And it didn't mean those guys couldn't come. It just meant we're building for the neighborhood, which was different. And then as people came, they either had babies or people came with their children. And we're at a crossroads again. So it's exciting to me that the Lord calls all of us. He calls us all to just be faithful. And so my encouragement is to anybody who is feeling like, you know, here's my, here's my ministry. I've got 20 people in the pews and then another 12 who all are asking me if I have a dollar, you know, really literally. And it's like, no, we don't have any money. And the Lord blesses. So that's why we didn't have children. And so we prayed for children. And we fixed a nursery. We hired the people. We had no children. We prayed for those babies. We didn't have any babies. We prayed for the staff. And guess what? It was me, which is the most in-up person in the world to do this. Except the Lord says, plant those seeds. Just be faithful. That's all I'm asking you. Just be faithful. And so now we have about 12 kids in our, in our children's ministry. And it's growing and thriving. Oh, and can I tell you another story? Because I want people to know how good God is. There is, we went from having nobody able to pay to, and I'm not saying this is a mark of God. We were as faithful to God before when we didn't have any money. But our, in our, our weekly offering now is well over $7,000 a week. Where did that come from? And we've had a, well, we know who it came from. We've had an angel come into the children's ministry. He doesn't go to our church. He believes what God is doing there. And he has given us thousands of dollars, sight unseen. He said, I know what you're doing is of the Lord. So I look at the Lord and I know he is faithful in when we have it and when we don't. And when there's no children, you still pray and you act as though they were because when they are, that are better, better be ready to follow. So I know I just mixed a whole bunch of metaphors and Bible verses in that. But I, I love how the Lord shows up. And he will, no matter who you are, that's all. Man, there's just so many questions in that. I love the fact that you are honest and mentioning how you're frustrated with God. Because yes, last night, I was just in a rabbit hole in the Bible. By the way, this is a new thing where I'm consistently reading the Bible. So don't think anyone like, Oh, no, he's so holy, no, I'm not. But there's an interesting thing in Job where he gets frustrated, but he's wrestling with God. And it says, Job didn't sin. But even though he was like angry at God. And I love the fact that because of faith, because you're still fighting with God, right, at God and not anyone else, you're in that wrestling God loves that because after that, you know, we know what happened. Job God's like, I'm gone. Hello. And Job's like, Oh, yeah, my bad. Yeah. So and like the thing with prayer is I'm learning recently, the length matters a lot because when you finally receive the promise, it's so much sweeter. We live in a culture where everything has to be instant. And there's like no appreciation. But when you like wait and wait and wait, even off the top of my head, you're laughing like, Oh, we're 90. We're not going to get kids. Abraham had to wait, you know, and he was 90, right? And so that's it. So there's this thing about God is so good. He knows we would appreciate it so much more when we wake. One of the fun things that's happening in my life as well is seeing people who you would I knew as Christians and then they've walked away from the Lord. And if I did not know my own story, I would have thought, Oh, it's it's over and done with. And seeing those Christians, some of them are young, some of them are older, they're coming back to the Lord because he's doing it. It's not because of anything, but the prayers of the people around them. And so waiting in our time and waiting in God's time, it's very, very different. He's not in a hurry. And he knows he just knows it's like stick with me and wait and see. Oh, watch for it. Just wait. And that's the faithfulness of Abraham, I think. And Abraham messed up too, right? Oh, yeah. We all look so. So, you know, he's not faithful every single second. Yeah, he makes a beautiful story out of messy sinners. So it is one of them. Oh, we all are. I'm actually very curious because you mentioned that like people off the street from prison and sex offenders were part of the congregation. And I'm assuming they still are. How do you navigate that with parents and with yeah? Well, we did not have any children in the day when the first man walked in. And there's hardly anybody in our church. And he asked me if he could attend our church because he just got out of prison. And he was a sex offender. And I said to him, it's not my church. It's the Lord's church. So let's look at your papers. You have to start there. And one of the things I've learned and I say this to those of you who might be watching that want to know, how do you minister to both? I would suggest not at the same time. We had a group that would meet at our church on Friday nights. They had their own ministry. They named themselves the forgotten sinners. And there was a meal and guys out of prison or in halfway houses would come to our church on Friday nights and they would have a church service. The idea was that as we got to know them and their story, they would either come into our church or they would continue to use the Friday night group as the church. The Lord changed the ministry direction for them. That group moved to another church, which is interesting because usually it's people who move away from the sex offenders. The sex offenders all moved away to another place. They knew they would be very welcome. And I think that was the Lord. Children are first and foremost because their safety is prime. It's the first thing. So if there are sex offenders in your church, they are supposed to have a trained buddy, at least in Texas. They're supposed to have a trained buddy that stays with them all the time. And that's key. And unfortunately, most people won't know who the sex offenders are in their church. So it's very important that every church, no matter how small, does the trainings to recognize what it looks like, how to report it, and how to protect children. Safety is foremost with kids. Yeah. So part of this podcast is sharing people's experiences and helping people realize, oh, you can navigate interesting situations, you know, in a very godly way. Do you know how they're doing now? They're doing fine. They move to a ministry that specializes in outreach groups and sobriety. And so it was a good fit for them. Yeah. I have mixed feelings because I think churches should be a mix of everybody. I really feel like that I've neglected to tell you that the church that was abandoned 20, 30 years ago is now in one of the hottest, highest price neighborhoods in the city. So it's been highly gentrified. And so the people who are coming, well, they're highly educated and have high standards. And I think you have to look at your church. Where is it located? Who do you minister to? Not everything has to be done at one time. Sometimes you could do kids at a whole another day. That's something I think might be helpful to parents as instead of a Sunday morning. Maybe parents should have kids church on Saturday night, one hour long. Just let the kids learn how to worship Jesus break. I think we sometimes get caught into a one way. We do it. At least at our church. We're pretty traditional. So like what you said about fit, I think that's the correct word. Because like I think compromise is a really good indicator of where the heart is, where people want to make a decision that's best for all parties. Not one party. And it is hard. But like you said, like part of the thing I love about the startup journey is you get to the experiment. And obviously the experiment isn't in public because we're just like figuring it out slowly, putting it out there. But I think there's a way for churches to say, you know what? Let's test pilot some things, you know, to see what works and what doesn't work. And again, at the end, we all know the Lord, he does his thing and it always comes to his conclusion if we are just faithful. So yeah, I love that. I love that you said test pilot because I felt like for many years that we were building the plane as we were flying it. You learn, you learn as you go. Yeah. And you still have to fly the plane. And it's okay just make sure you've got a good crew. People who have different tasks and let them do what they do and support them in that. And if it's different from the way that you have always done it or you think is right, pray, talk, just argue if you must. Just work it out. It's okay. The Lord is in going to love all of it. I want to tell you a quick story about that, how I got formed in that thinking. Was this group of people that were coming to our church in the day were people who were schizophrenic and a lot of times they land in jail. They lived in this halfway house and some of them had never been to church. We would pick them up in a van, an old van we had been gifted. And I was driving them home when a woman who had never been in church before started having a theological discussion with a man who had a brain damage. And so this discussion was whether Satan and Jesus were brother and sister. You can imagine how this went. I mean, it's dark under even home. And there's this discussion going back and forth. Is he no? Yeah. And then somebody, well, he didn't have brothers and sisters and was like, I'm just listening. And someone from the back very quietly says, well, Anne, didn't you say Jesus has assisted brothers? And I just tried to affirm all of them, right? You're just trying to say, yeah, but and as I'm driving home, thinking, I'm driving them home in the dark. I thought, Lord, you know what? I bet we all sound just like this to you. All our theology, it all, it sounds like this, but you know what you would say to me, I've got this I'll get you home. I'm driving the van. And I love that picture because I love these guys, but there was no way they were going to have a theological discussion, but they were, they were, they had heard the word, they were questioning it, they were arguing, they were clarifying at their level. And it didn't really matter because they were talking about Jesus. So I, everything's a learning opportunity. Yeah, I love that. We need to give people spaces to just figure things out, you know, and it's funny because you know, you're doing young children now and oftentimes adults act like children, right? Because we have this thing in our heart, but you know, we want to be right and we're afraid of being wrong. But sometimes you need to be wrong a lot to get to the right thing. You know, again, this comes back to my start of journey of it's it's a journey of failure because the only success is at the end, honestly. And I would remind all of us that Jeremiah had a 41 year ministry of complete failure. Nobody listened to Jeremiah except for everybody after Jeremiah. And that to me was such an encouragement. It's you hear from God, you do what he says, even if it doesn't make sense when he said, go buy a plot of land. And the, you know, the conquerors are climbing over the fence. There is hope with the word. And I, I think that's the message that I love about who we believe in. There's always a door of hope that opens with him. It doesn't matter. He's he looks at our resources and our gifts and talents and theology and said, I got this. Yeah, I guess the world calls it a failure, but I've been learning like you learned the most when you fail. Right. So in God's view, it's like, yes, you're failing and learning. You know, yeah, that's the preparation. It's so funny. We know that when we succeed, there's this propensity to boast, take credit, say I did that. And I was like, no, you, you, you helped. It's like the picture someone said to me of the five-year-old with her hand on Daddy's briefcase, right? I'm I'm carrying Daddy's business like, no, no, you're not really. But when you think about little kids, what you realize is you may be thinking you're teaching them one thing. And they're hearing something else. And is that a failure when when the two-year-old hands the baby Bible to the new leader? And instead of saying, this is a Bible, which is what it is. Instead, she goes, it's the B-I-B-L-E from now on, we're going to do a B-I-B-L-E study, you know. Nice. I'm going, that's what it's called, because we always sing when they're little, right? That's what you do. It got in there. You wrote on the email, God has led me to understand and love the LGBTQ Christian community. And to be a witness for them, could you share a little about that? Yes, I have come with a lot of prayer study, Bible study, actually listening to the LGBTQ community of Christians. How much they love God, have a high view of Scripture, and there are things that we may all have a different viewpoint depending on where we are. But that LGBTQ Christians are Christians nonetheless, and they are not a problem to be solved. They're brothers and sisters to learn from, love with, serve God beside, and it's been a wonderful place. About in 2017, I don't know of the math, but in 2017, I ran across in my journal, my prayer journal. What at the time I didn't understand, it said, I feel like the Lord is calling me away from my ministry at my church, and I somehow vaguely think it's to work with the gay community. At that time, I had no idea what God would do. And he started bringing moms to me that had gay children. My daughter is gay, my adult child is gay. And as they started coming and talking with me, I was kind of a smart alike, and I went, just to myself, I went, I think I'm going to start a group and call it mothers of others, and I'm just going to call it moo. And that's ingenious. I'm standing right behind me like, well, that, that, so I started to throw up in the Zoom door and said, if you want, we had parents from all over the United States show up once a month. And the sad part of that is that none of them except the people who were on the other side that were there to minister. None of them could talk about their kids at their church, some were heartbroken, some were trying to figure this out, and some had already accepted. But for two years, this was the part where the Lord had had me being mom and ministry and spiritual director all on once. And then that ended in the spring. And I thought, I don't know what God has for me. And I retired from my ministry. And the Lord kept saying to me, don't worry, don't worry, I'll bring them to you. So imagine how it felt to me when the first person was a transgender male, who I did not know and we have coffee, and now he's like my, I'd like to say my brother, I'm sure he would say like spiritual mom, because I'm a lot older than he is. Then another young woman who had been walking in a very dark place, the Lord wouldn't give her respite from me in her brain. So she reached out to me after several years and we've been meeting every week online doing spiritual direction, soul sister talking, and she's in her 30s. And it is a place where, oh, what needless pain we bear, because we label and categorize, and I go back to what the Lord has called clean, let nobody call, I'm clean. And so I feel like, well, here in my Lord, you know, I'm with two year olds in the gay community, if they want me, and and praying, and that will be done as my favorite prayer, right? I will be done. imagery I got with me is the cow and how the mother cow is offering milk and how Paul says, oh, you guys aren't even ready for the real stuff. So I'm giving you spiritual milk and I feel you're what you're offering, because in this confusing time where they feel basically like lepers, right? You're bringing them in and be like, oh, no, let's, let's reestablish trust in relationship and love. And then we'll figure out all the other stuff later. And I love that. Have you been getting pushed back? The people who would push back don't push very hard, because they, first of all, most people know that, you know, I have a loved one that is gay. And they also know that I love the Lord. And for 10 years after she came out and told us that she was gay, I had a really hard time with that. I loved her. Always, always loved my kids. But I also thought I, I don't give up my faith or my theology when it's convenient. And the Lord blessed me with a woman named Karen Keen. I highly recommend who wrote a book. And I should have that written down for you. I don't. And she did an online class. And Karen is a Bible scholar. And she's brilliantly broke this down for me. And through her, I'm, I already knew of centerpiece is out of Texas, which is a wonderful resource center. And then Matthew Vines, who is in Nashville, Tennessee, there are Christians who are writing from their personal experience. And they love Jesus. And I highly urge all Christians to pick up a book and just read it. You don't have to change your mind. That's the thing people don't understand. If you don't have to change your mind, you just have to love people. And that's, that's the difference. It's like, do we put theology first? Or do we put our sons and daughters first? And my daughter is your daughter. She's your sister, right? And I, I've been so blessed. Oh, I've been so blessed by, and I want you to know that when it broke through to me, I wept and cried for kind of repentance. Like, what have we done to people? What have we done? And so the, the scales fell off of my eyes. I didn't just one day go, I think I'll, I'll be an ally because I'll be cool. I don't consider myself cool, but I am an ally. What I've been learning recently is like perspective is really everything for the individual. And if you don't hear at least or willing to have the heart to listen to other people and their perspective, you're always going to have a narrow perspective because even if I disagree with like most people about a lot of things, I'm able to understand where they're coming from and how they got to that conclusion. And then even just support them because the world is not being shaped in my image. It's going to be shaping God's image. And so God, you're going to do what he's going to do. But I am called to be responsible for my heart and my mind and my soul. And if I'm reflecting Jesus and modeling Jesus rightly, then people will know my experience has to be genuine. Even talking to you, I feel this like ooze of warmth and light. And man, that journey of navigating that must have been really hard, but also really good. I never stopped. This is the thing I want people to remember. Don't stop. Don't stop and say, I've got everything figured out. And just because I think I know what I know now, my journey isn't over. There's all sorts of things to learn about everybody. And how to pray and how to wait, how to read scripture in different ways, how to sit with the Lord. When you don't know how to pray, maybe somebody's listening that has a sibling or a child that's LGBTQ AI plus something. And I think my recommendation is when you don't know how to have a conversation with somebody, you're probably not going to know how to have a conversation with God about it. And so it's okay to step back and take a swap it out as what I call it. We're instead of me doing all the talking in prayer, I ask questions. And the question might be, God, I don't understand. What needs your attention, Lord? And what needs my attention? Well, I think I learned that from my good friend, Chris Althrock, who is a wonderful minister. And to be able to ask God just one question, it's for your ministry too. Like when you've done all you know how to do. And it's not working. You're paid to take a long walk somewhere in a park or on the beach. What needs your attention, Lord? Because we have blind spots, right? I have this vision. It's like, but that's, that's not where we're going. And you can't see where we're going because you're over here. So I love that. My faith journey has completely changed. Once I let go of, I know the answers. I know enough to get to tomorrow, right? Or to the next thing. But then there's a name Tim Ross. I don't know if you know him. He's like popular in the social media space right now. But he says, some people have the faith of Gideon where you need a fleece. You need tangible proof. And I was, you know what? I'm going to take that. Lord, you know how weak and forgetful. And how thou filled I am. So I am unashamedly say, you better show up. I know you showed up before. But no, I want to keep seeing you because it helps my heart to believe and move forward. Yeah. So that's, that's great. So what is the thing that kind of came together to the point where like you need your repent and like let go? Oh, yes. It was the work of Karen Keane because she loves God with all her heart. And she is a Bible scholar. And she took the word of God as it is. And she looked at how do we fit in this as a gay community? And can you, can you find in your heart to find that scripture is for the unique as well as for the married people? Units weren't allowed in this, you know, they're not there. They weren't allowed. And we get in this mindset of there's one way instead of that way being Jesus, it's the one way to practice the one way to achieve holiness. And when she just kind of took scripture for me, it was all about the scripture, right? And I didn't know what I didn't know. I had to have a teacher. How will they learn if they do not hear it? And it was up to me to be open to hear it. I was motivated. I, you know, I was motivated. And unfortunately, if you don't have a family member, a lot of people are like, I already know the answer. Nope, you're wrong. No, God says it's wrong right there. And for people who have been highly motivated, they've done the Bible work. They've been on their face in prayer. So that's really what did it for me was going to people who were scholars and love God and were in the community. I learned to listen to them. Well, I'm so happy. I did. They're great people. They're wonderful Christians. So so my, my spicy take is yes, there's only one way to God, the Father, but there's many ways to Jesus. And that understanding took blew my mind. Jesus is the only way to the Father. But how do we get to Jesus? I realize it's so dynamic and like the multiverse, all of these strings connect to this singularity of Jesus reveals himself to respond to that in X 10 where Paul already knew and Paul was a hidden back down. And I truly believe that Paul was killing Christians because they said that anybody who was crucified on a tree was could possibly be Messiah. How insulting to him. Otherwise, he would have just ignored them. I think. And so as he's knocked off his high horse, and he's so well educated and he's not afraid of a con, you know, he's he's not afraid of a con conflict. The Lord has to knock him off his high horse and send him to a Gentile. And in in X 10, Paul says, I now, or I think it's Paul, I now know that God does not show favoritism. If you put a period right there, Peter, Peter is a Peter, Peter, with the, with the, with the back of his mouth. Yeah. You know, can they be part of this? And Peter is convinced. And he says, I now know that God does not show favoritism and that he has shown his spirit to the Gentiles. So what if we just took that scripture seriously? God doesn't show favoritism. So the gay community, if they love God and they are walking a holy life, I better keep my mouth shut, right? And if there are homeless people who have been in prison and you don't want them in your church, that's not your church, just God doesn't show favoritism. If you have parents in your ministry that are getting on your last nerve, you know, God doesn't show favoritism. So that for me is a, it's like, oh, don't be like Peter. Don't be like Peter, the young Peter, you know, be like the old Peter that says, so it's an embracing mindset that also finishes with Jesus, that the end of that sentence is with through Jesus Christ, our Lord and fully, fullyness. Yeah. I honestly also think that part of the problem is churches are too big, you know, and when you have so many people in that space, they're not gonna agree, you know, think about families. How many families are like in consensus all the time and like families are like like two to five to maybe seven. And so it really is like creating these smaller spaces where people can work stuff out, right? Because life is such a long journey. And like if you told me like even after 40 years, I feel like I'm just starting on this like obedience kick of like actually just being still and listening and waiting and not being so confident in what I know, but like like verifying like I need to make sure that was the Lord. So like I do it like three times. I'm like, okay, you said it three times. I'm gonna do it. Stuff like that. So. Yes. And Richard Roar, I believe I don't want to misquote him, but I believe he says the first 50 years of your life, you're working hard to get over, you know, but then the next half of your life, you step back and look back and go, oh, I don't need to do that again. I need to read real line with God. I need a real line. And alignment isn't something that means that everybody just matches up. And one thing that we've all probably learned through COVID and politics in the past five or six years is that it should never be about everyone agreeing. Or at least for me, it's like, how do you get everybody to agree? I totally agree. It's about how do we love one another? Yeah. And how do we use our gifts to serve one another, especially the people we don't like? And if you don't like them, you don't have to like them. But if you can't watch their feet, you can also not say bad things about them. You can do that. If that's all you can do, do that. I think about the church in Seoul, Korea. That is huge. And they manage it because of small groups and Jesus Christ at the center of their faith. And I think that out of that church also came the small group movement. Not they didn't come out of that, but small groups are important. In my life, I've got a group of women in ministry that we call ourselves the tribe. I've got another group of people around me at my church that I love and we encourage each other. Create a small group. Don't wait to be invited into one. Don't have a formal small group. Look around to see who God gives you. And be encouraged. Yeah. But that's one reason why we're shifting and focused on faithfully to do groups. We're hoping that people can gather together and have a place where, you know, not necessarily like-minded. I'm sure it's going to start off that way, but my moral hope is, again, when you have a pool of different opinions and perspectives, it really broadens your perspective. And it really, again, I keep coming back to this understanding thing. I think understanding, like if I was in your shoes going through everything you did, I would probably think the things you did. That kind of attitude, I think, is still important. Yeah, empathy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When you get the fruits of the spirit, you know, love, peace, joy, gentleness, self-control, all of those, those are actually best grown in adversarial times. Sometimes love, you can love your family and your family's going to get on your last nerve, right? They are going to touch every button, especially if you have children. And you will always love them, but they will teach you. They will teach you how not to rage or how not to, you know, over and out. So that's what your small groups and my small groups, we do. We love one another through our differences and try and support each other. It's really kind of fun, actually, to me. On the Enneagram, though, just for you, Enneagram people out there, I'm an eight. So I kind of thrive on conflict a little bit. Just saying I'm not a nine. So anyway, I'm going to end with the three questions. When was the last time you changed your mind about something? Oh my goodness. Well, personally, where I've changed my mind, just about on a very personal level, is that when I retired in May, and when somebody goes into a retirement phase, everything stops. You don't have much of an identity. And I thought, well, I guess that's that. And people came to me from many places and said, oh, I don't think God's done yet. I don't think God is done with you. And I've watched him bring people to me in the past six, seven months. And we are ever bit as much walking in the spirit of God. So I've changed my mind about the difference between ministry employed and ministry not employed. And there's it's a false reality. I don't know what if you are ministering, that's what's going to happen. Because Jesus doesn't say, oh, I'll talk to you later. I can't use you anymore. It's like, well, what do I do? It just does just wake up, go do the next thing. And I'll show you what we're going to do today. Yeah. What you just described is perfectly what I've been living out recently and understanding about myself, which is there's a difference between wearing different hats, understanding different roles, you're going to play in your life, and understanding who you are. And when you show up authentically as you are, yeah, what you're doing will be different, but how you do things will be the same, right? And it will resonate with people. Yes, they do. And to help people recognize that just because you took the hat off, it was just a hat. You're still there. You're still there. Yeah. And I think parents struggle with that. You know, I have a lot of mom friends and like, I'm a mom, I'm a wife, I'm a teacher. It's all these things. I'm relaxed. You know, God knows who you are. At the end of the day, you're a daughter of God. Yeah. And He will work everything out. Yes. Yeah. He does. What are you hoping for, faithfully? I want to see faithfully grow and to be a powerful place. That's what I like. Right? That's my power for good. When ministers are out looking for work or even doing their work, it's lonely. And oftentimes, people are expected to be holy and they're expected to be perfect. They're expected to never have a bad day. And you can't confide in anybody else if you don't have your people. So for faithfully, the idea that you are creating space for small groups that are safe for people who love the Lord and are looking for ministry is so needed. It's a lonely place. It's isolating. And you often don't have the power that people think you do, but you often have an unseen power that people may not realize that they have sometimes as a minister. So my hope is that you will be blessed in the spirit of Jesus Christ with the power of the Holy Spirit to provide a safe place for ministers, to connect churches and ministers to one another, sort of like introducing people to a dance. Like they walk up and they take each other's hand and they have a safe space to take a stroll around the floor together and say, are we a good match for each other for a while? And besides, I just love you guys. So I hope I hope you thrive. I really do. Yeah, when I started listening to a lot of podcasts, it really opened my mind. Like because I stopped listening to what's right and wrong and be like, huh, I didn't see it that way before, but that's an interesting take. And the more interesting the take, I'm like, huh. And then I would again, ask questions of like running my own logic of like and challenging myself to be like, hmm, if that's true, what does that mean for me? And then I like unpack it and it's, yeah, it really helped me shed a lot of my systematic theology, even though again, I am grateful for my education. But if you get just to the core and keep things simple, then from that seed, you can grow out a lot of different things because maybe one of the issues is we're trying to over prepare for every situation. Yeah, yeah, rather than like, oh, I just know these simple things and I need to get back to you because I need to ask the Lord like, I have no idea, you know, yeah, and that like chow. So disciplines, right? Yeah. Yeah. And the disciplines are not hard. They're just disciplines. And I loved what you said about I need to step away from my systematic theology because it's never going to go anywhere. It is a wonderful platform. But if you're learning to grow, I love how you said, I step back into something that's not as developed and much more uncomfortable. And I just appreciate how you were able to lean into that and not resist it. But to say, okay, now I'm going to strengthen this over here. I'm going to feel about things for a little bit because I have this, this down. I know how to do this, but I need to strengthen this over here. I love that about you, Danny. That's just great. If I have systematic theology at the back pocket, I'd be so proud. I just think I were all that, you know, a petunia in the base. I don't know. But you are, you are doing so well. And I recognize that you're an IT person in ministry. So for me, your IT and children's minister, I just think that's marvelous. We all have questions like I would like to know more of your story too. It's honestly been a wild ride. And honestly, all of these new revelations is just this year. So don't think like it's like an amazing thing because yeah, like something my mentor always said and I never really, really understood it. No, like when you're younger, you think you know, but like God kills your ego and that was so hard. Once your ego dies and you're just, okay, humble, whatever, okay. Then it's just, oh, so like getting back to my mentor, what he said was, it's our relationships. It's about love. It's about winning people. And I was like, you know, you'll see this in a lot of young people, they're like, now I'm like, oh, relationships are all about trust. And I need to operate in a way where they know they are safe. And they trust me. And anything I do, it really is to help them, but not in a way where I tell them what to do because honestly, I have no idea. But what I can do is help you find your answers by asking you a lot of questions. And so when I share my experience, it's like, okay, what part of that was helpful resonance? Because if you believe that I have a relationship to the Lord, then this is what my relationship looks like. And again, my transformation this year was just because of Jesus. And so like, I want that to be like, I hope I've occurred to you. I'm like, oh, you used to be like yourself. Oh, you're like, oh, well, I want to say I'm Paul. I'm more like Peter because I make the left hand sticks. But like, yeah, I'm like, okay, establish a trust first. And then you can get to the theological stuff later because at the end of the day, it's not about what you know, it's at the heart level. Are you trusting the Lord with all your heart, mind, and soul, right? And yeah, for me, it was such a brutal, brutal journey, mainly because a lot of self-inflicted wounds. And even just like this past, like last week, God kind of like put the final nail in the coffin of my ego and be like, you know, there's a Greek, I'm going to get a little nerdy here. There's a Greek term like ego, Amy is I am. But then the eye is the, again, the ego. And I had to ask myself, okay, when I say, I, is it Danny, or is it Jesus, I? And I was like, oh, I've been operating with Danny, I for so long that all of my frustrations came out because I wasn't getting what I wanted or what I liked. But now like, I'm trying to operate on first, okay, what does Jesus want here, right? And it's so hard for like some of these lawyers been independent and just like on my own. And it's like, it really is being a relationship, a marriage relationship where, okay, I need to stop thinking about me first. And I got to constantly ask, okay, what do you want? What do you like to so that I can get to a point where, okay, I know this person. So I'm going to operate in a way where like, it's pleasing to them because I love them, you know? And like, I'm pretty sure many people who hear that, they're like, oh, that's obvious, but like, no, it sounds obvious, but until you go through it, you're like, man, I don't know why I was operating in the other way. It's, it's human nature. And, and young people have no other choice. I mean, really, you have to develop your skills and talents. And, and if you didn't think you were doing a good job, then you might quit and go the other way, right? But as far as one of the things I love is when we come face to face where we're not Christlike, he gives us ways to become more Christlike. And one of mine was, they not like, well, I was young and I didn't like this other woman I worked with. But the Lord wanted me in her life. She didn't know the Lord. And I didn't water in my life because of myself, my ego. And the way the Lord had me do that was said, well, instead of saying her, you need to pretend she's me. And it flipped everything, right? And that's how we should do with our ministries, with the people. What if I were in front of Jesus? Whoa, I would be treating her so much different. And I did into the state she's a dear friend. And when she did come up with that funny, yes, the blessing to me. And she also became a believer. And it wasn't because of me, in particular, it was a Bible study she did actually. But we each play a part, right? And if we're always the hero of our own story, Jesus is like, I'll get over, you know, get out of the way. So it's in our stories all are that all the time. Who's the hero of the story? Well, kind of me. Okay. Even if I'm trying to make it about somebody else, it's always about Jesus. And that's what joins us together. Yeah. I remember someone saying once, I forgot who, but like, if you're not willing to pray for them, you don't know them. So don't speak ill of them. And I'm not saying like we got to pray for everybody. But yeah, if you're having conflict with somebody, like just start with prayer. And if you're not willing to pray for them, then you already know there's something wrong in your heart. And you need to take that to the Lord. And I think we don't ever talk about repentance. We don't talk about how to repent and relinquish. And it's such a joy. You know, if you're kind of stubborn like me and brash at times, and when I was younger, really, really brash, you learn how to repent and say, I'm sorry, right? It's kind of second at the second language for me now. But you recognize that being able to repent from something is the God's way to get you untangled from it. And so it's just so easy. It's just so easy to say, oh, Lord, I'm sorry, don't want to do this. I don't want to pray for them. Could you pray for them for me and I'll listen to you because I don't want to. And I don't want to, I don't want to quit. And if anything working with a two-year-old in nursery is a good way to watch them just be who they are and you love them anyway, you know, just let the Lord do the praying if you can't. But repentance and relinquishments are really important. And this friend of mine, this young friend of mine who's reached out recently, I'm telling you, the Lord God himself has been teaching her, you need to confess. Would you like to confess your sin? Oh, would you like, you need to relinquish this? Oh, and there's nobody telling her to do these things. And to see her, just she's so much lighter. Her dizziness is open. She's shining. And it's a blessing that God called me back into her life. So he could say, see, I don't really need your help. But you need to know that there are people out there who I'm working with. Do you want to play? You want to get on board with me? I have nothing to do with it except to go, oh my goodness, God is really good. God is really good at this. So I would just love to encourage anybody who, if anybody's listening and you need to know that God is for you and not against you, we're telling you God is for you and not against you. And he will bless whatever you set your hand to as long as you your other hands and his you will follow him all the days of your life. And he will leave. I love that. I love that. One last thing is how can we be praying for you in your ministry? I would love to have courage and confidence in see when you when you get this and you won't say the next thing, that's where I need to say Lord, what am I not telling myself I already know? And part of it for me is that at my age, I'm starting to judge myself by the world standard in thinking, you know, nobody's going to want this. And I think that's a sin. You know, I think that's sinful. So I just confess that. So I need prayer to keep remembering that all of God's lessons are all life long that he leads us. He works through us. He works with us. He will work behind us and around us when we are unwilling so much. My request for prayers is for graciousness to be an encourager to all and to just love people where they are and to receive love and return. That's great. Well, we'll end it there. That's it for the podcast guys, but Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories podcast. 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