You Love First - Jason Min

But he says, oh, this is the easiest decision you're ever going to have to make. And he was like, he's like, Jason, you should go. And he said, you know, part of what leadership actually looks like is you go first. You know, you love first. Hi, my name is Jason. I'm the lead pastor of Citizens L.A. And this is my faithfully story. Welcome to Faithfully Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life. Join us as we delve into their challenges, moments of encouragement, and answered prayers. The Faithfully Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithfully, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff, and volunteers. Learn more at Faithfully.co. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired as we unveil the heart of faith through stories from the front lines of ministry on the Faithfully Stories podcast. Could you tell me how your faith journey started? Yeah, I grew up in the church. My parents, for as long as I can remember, have been believers. Are they immigrated here? 1984, and I was baptized as an infant. And so, you know, church was just a regular part of my life. I would say if there was a moment when I felt like my faith became real, it would be, it was my first youth retreat and it's your classic story. You know, I was, yeah, I was in sixth grade. My first youth retreat. I still remember the song. The song was widest snow. It's an oldie. And I don't know why, like, even at that young age, I just felt so aware of my brokenness. And, you know, I didn't have like theological concepts or categories. But I just felt like this overwhelming sense of the love of God. And, but, you know, since then, I think the journey has taken me to different places. But I think faith has just been a part of my upbringing, part of my story since childhood. So I've been talking to a lot of people through this podcast. And I realized like that experience, because I also had the same experience of just being in the church, all my life. And I thought it was normal. But it's actually quite not normal, unless you're a Korean American. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm curious as to, like, what do you remember about church before that retreat of, like, like, your childhood memories? Yeah. I mean, for me, church was life, you know? Like, now I think in hindsight, I understand what the church meant to my parents. It wasn't just a place to go for an hour and a half a week. For my parents who were immigrants, they literally saw it as their lifeline. You know, the community was, it was friendship. Well, it was resources. Yeah. I mean, it was like a church was like a community center for them. And so I was at church minimum three to four nights a week. You know, on Sunday, it was an all day or deal. All my, you know, like friends from church were my closest friends. And yeah, I mean, I have a lot of sweet memories from that time. I mean, looking back, I'm like shocked that our parents would just... They would just leave us in the children's ministry room sometimes for eight hours at a time. You know, and we would just figure it out. But yeah, I mean, like... So for me, like, having that rhythm, though, was really had a profound impact. I think on me from a young age. And actually, I know for a lot of people that was traumatizing for them. And maybe they needed to kind of unlearn that. I would say for me, maybe by God's grace, like, I have just only fond memories of that. And I actually, I would say that developed a very positive association with church. Yeah, I feel the same way because my family life at home was chaotic. So like, church felt like a second home, but it really felt like a first home. Because all my friends were there and we spent so much time there. And I feel like even as an adult, internally, emotionally, I'm always trying to go back to those golden years. But like you said, like, for me, the struggle was always... Okay, but it feels like a community center and being churches this thing. So for you, like, how do you deal with the tension of what you feel, like, churches, theologically, and like, what the Bible says? But also, like, understanding. But wait, the way I grew up was so fruitful, you know? Like, how do you meld those things together? Yeah, like, I guess for me, I don't even really sense too much of attention. And in some ways, there are aspects of that kind of iteration of my church experience that feels, in fact, more... It feels closer to, I think, how the Bible talks about church. You know, when I think about the Acts 2 church, like, you know, people breaking bread, sharing possessions, like, that was my life. My parents, they knew very little about American culture, even, like, paperwork. You know, church was a time when they actually learned how to raise us, you know, where to live, what schools to send us to, where to buy a home, you know, getting help to buy a home, you know? And then, like, I just, the fondest memories for me are watching, you know, my parents, like, eat with, you know, us eating with them, whether it was at, like, Wednesday night service, Friday night service, Sunday, there was always food. And that's something that I feel like is very lacking in maybe the second generation church or the churches that I've been a part of. It's like service ends and everyone just kind of goes their separate ways. But that really felt like people were doing life together. For me, like, you know, obviously there are a lot of things that were very cultural and huge departures from maybe how the Bible defines church. But I guess there are a lot of things I think that we've lost that actually really showcased the beauty of what the church could be. Yeah, I totally agree. I think now at my age at 40, I'm like appreciating all the things that has happened. And I think that comes with, like, when you miss it, you're like, oh, wait, actually, those things were good things. So you had this youth to retreat. How did your faith progress? Yeah, I guess for me, like, that just really thrust me deeper into the life of the church. You know, that's when I started serving, you know, as I started leading worship. You know, and this is why, like, for me, when people say, you know, they love, they love Jesus, but they can't do the church. Like, it's sad for me to hear that. And I understand that sometimes there are reasons for why they feel that way. For me, like, I could not have progressed in my faith without the church. The two were like, absolutely intertwined. And so it was just a deeper engagement, you know, with the body. You know, I got really close to my youth pastor who taught me everything I know about guitar. And as you know, like, how much that had an impact on my life. That's where I learned how to be a worship leader. And then like, you know, in Korean American youth groups, you start at six grade, you're at the bottom. But as you progress up into high school, then you start leading different things. You know, you start leading small groups. And then you, you know, like the crown jewel is you get to be a part of the retreat planning committee. By the time you're senior in high school. And so like, for me, like, I think, yeah, like after that moment, it just, I think my whole life already pretty much revolved around church. But I think there was just a deeper joy, deeper engagement with the community of God. And so, yeah, I would say, yeah, I'm just more involvement with the church. So for me, every time I had those experiences, they were great. And it did like add something to me. But, you know, like you come back home and you're nice for two weeks and then you kind of revert. So for you, that was for me. How did your relationship to like your family change or did it? Yeah. You know, to be honest, like for me, like, I mean, same way. In the sense of, you know, retreat every year, that retreat was like a adrenaline shot to the system. You know, huge highs. I would say my family life at home was pretty stable in the sense that like I wasn't really coming back to a chaotic home. You know, and you know, thankfully, like both my parents were pretty consistent, devout believers. And so, yeah, if anything like maybe I missed the emotional high, but it wasn't like a complete reverting, you know, of like, you know, or kind of like entering back into the chaos. So thankfully, there were systems and structures in place that allowed me to continue to cultivate my faith even at home. So after your youth years, would you go to college? The University of Pennsylvania, go Quakers. What was your major? I went as a communications major. I ended up double majoring in communications and history, but yeah, I started as a communication major. So how did like your faith look in college? Yeah. College was interesting because now is the first time I think I took full ownership of my faith, you know, got involved with the campus ministry. You know, that was connected to a church out in Philadelphia. And again, thankfully, like all throughout my life, like I can point to very specific people who had a huge impact on my like understanding of Jesus and who modeled like Jesus for me so well. And so, you know, thankfully, like I had so many older brothers and sisters who mentored me in college, nurtured me into a deeper understanding of the faith. And so yeah, like so much of my college career again, I think it was in many ways like a continuation of my childhood, but now like I was doing it fully out of my own volition, you know. And so yeah, started serving pretty quickly in college. You know, I think music and worship, it was very clear from early on that that was going to be like a thread that was going to move through my life. And so yeah, started serving in that capacity, met a lot of amazing people. I would say college was when like I got grounded in a very specific theology, like reform theology. Before that, you know, I had the, you know, Korean churches, it doesn't matter if you're Presbyterian, charismatic. They all look very similar, but I think in college was when I really was turned on to like reform theology when I like really got connected to the grace of God preaching Christ and the gospel. Like in its most like undiluted form, so that's when I got really into Tim Keller, John Piper, those guys really I think started to shape my faith. This was renewal. Yeah. Pastor Dwight, you know, he's one of the big reasons why I went to Westman. He visited at Binghamton and I had to talk with him and he's like, why would you go anywhere else? Is that right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Or to something that I don't want to put words in as well. Um, wait, so like you're, I feel like you're like super blast because you have so many people like pouring into you. Were you looking for these relationships? So they kind of like was there and you just kind of immersed in it. Yeah, I mean, this is going to sound like so I don't think I was necessarily looking for them. And this is why my whole life, you know, is I just especially now as I'm, you know, in my 40s to so I look back and see the hand of God. Like I just feel so blessed and I just have so much gratitude because yeah, a lot of the, I know that a lot of the relationships that I have that I had and not all my friends had relationships like that. You know, the kinds of people who poured into my life who invested in me, I just see that as purely the grace of God. And so yeah, I was really fortunate in that sense. So what advice would you give to young people who are looking for mentorship? Like if someone feels like really alone, like what would you tell them? Yeah, I mean, one thing I will say and this is where like I do see the beauty of the church. You know, for example, the church that I'm pastoring right now, I started in a community group. Carolyn, I started a community group. We were newly married and in that group, there were singles. There were newly dating couples and it was amazing for us to journey with them and we became parents. The dating couple got married. Some of the singles started dating and because we had those relationships across life stages, we benefited great, like all parties benefited so greatly from it. Like, you know, the singles learned from us, you know, what married life was going to look like, what parenthood was going to look like. But then once we became parents, a lot of these brothers and sisters, they became our kids, baby sitters, you know, they kept us youthful. They became a part of our village and I would say a lot of times, I think we're constantly looking for people who are exactly like us in the same life stage, same interests kind of to be our community. But I think if you are intentional about looking for people in other life stages to connect with, it's pretty amazing, the kinds of community you can forge through those relationships. So for me, I think even at a young age, maybe because there were certain things that I was trying to develop and let's say as a worship leader or as a small group leader where I was really, I wanted to learn and I was hungry to learn from older people and people who I've been doing it for a while. I think I took intentional steps to like connect to those people, pick their brain, you know, I mean, it takes a little bit of courage to ask someone older than you or someone in a different life stage for coffee or things like that. But though it's also pretty, I think now being on the other side, being the older person that maybe younger people come to, it's actually there's nothing more life giving than the opportunity to pour into someone younger, you know, and I think people, a lot of times underestimate, you know, how impactful it is for the person that you're asking as well. And so I would encourage, you know, people to just go out and seek them, not all relationships are going to turn into mentorship relationships, but I think being intentional about the types of people where you say, like, I would love to just learn from you or I would love to hear your story. It just, it like one thing leads to another and it just opens more doors, you know, you know, when you're talking about the community group, I never realized until you started talking about it that a community group is really just an incubator. Because like, I'm constantly thinking about the start of world and like, oh, that's why I like it works and you're sharing experiences. So, I'm very curious as to like, okay, you're in college, you're doing this thing, you graduate. When did Miss Vinci happen? Yeah, so I graduated. So essentially, to back up a little bit, when I went into college and declared as a communications major, it was because I wanted to be an anchor man. Yeah, I know. It's a way to expand on that. Yeah, you know, like public speaking was always a big part of my life, did a whole bunch of speech competitions model you went. And so when I went to college, that was the, you know, one of the reasons I chose Penn was because of their renowned communications program. And interestingly enough, my, the summer after my junior year, I landed my dream internship at ABC 7 news. It was like the road was starting, you know, I could see like this, you know, this is the first kind of stepping stone to this career. And it was a great internship. I learned so much, but that exact summer. So half the summer, I interned at ABC 7. And the other half of the summer, I went on a mission trip to Russia, where we were there teaching youth and serving that like an underserved community on the border of Russia and North Korea. And I got back and I had an existential crisis because you had like in that summer, it was basically my dream job juxtaposed with this experience that was a thousand times more fulfilling than my dream job, you know, and I was like, oh my goodness. Do I really want to do this for the rest of my life because I've never felt more alive than I did when I was in Russia. And so I panicked my senior year, I come back and I'm like, oh my goodness, I need to figure something different out. So that's when I started applying to master's programs in education. And it wasn't necessarily because I knew I wanted to be a teacher. But they knew that whatever I did next, I wanted it to involve like young people investing pouring into the next generation. So I was like, okay, I need to apply to ed schools. And so I started taking a few education classes just so that I would have the pre-rex. And then I applied to grad programs. And then literally the next year, I did a one year master's in education program at Harvard. So I went to Boston and lived there for a year, loved my time there. But then the thing is is when I went there, because I didn't really have, I didn't know what the end goal was after that master's, you know, was I going to go into teaching, was I going to higher ed? That I want to pursue a doctorate, I'm not sure. And so I was, you know, I mean, this is classic. If anyone who knows me knows, so this is just classic Jason never can figure out what he wants to do always asking for clarity and wisdom. So, you know, I, near the end of my, as I got closer to graduation, I was like, what am I going to do? You know, the only things I knew at the time that I loved were probably music, people, and God, you know. And, and so I said, I'm going to do my new music, you know, and to the horror of my parents who were like, we sent you to two Ivy leagues and you're going to tell us you want to be a full time musician, you know, it was like an Asian parents worst nightmare. So there were a few guys that I had played music with back in Philly. So I moved back down to Philadelphia to start this band misventage and I was working full time at Penn, like in their urban education program. So I was still kind of scratching that itch, but ultimately I was there because I was pursuing music. A few years into that, we decided to take the plunge and go all in with music. And so we went full time with music for a couple of years. You know, and we did kind of like the way that that season started was we did this tour with Liberty in North Korea, where we did, we played maybe like, I think it was like 30 shows in 34 days across the country. So, you know, that kind of launched us into full time music. And then after a couple of years, you know, a man's got to eat. So, you know, I think I started tutoring people to get by. I had, I had amassed so many students in the greater Philadelphia area. A lot of these parents were started saying, hey, if you ever started an education center, we would just send our kids there, rather than having you drive to all these different places. And so that was kind of like right around 25. So I always joke with people that every five years I have a massive existential crisis. 25, I was like, you know what? Yeah, like I don't think music is paying the bills. It's always going to be a part of my life. And so I started this learning center, you know, college consulting business in Philly at 25. And so that's kind of like how my life went from music back into the kind of educational space. I want to stick with the music thing a little more because like you're one of the rare quote unquote passers that I know like had this like church experience and that was like your life. And then in the middle, you did this non kind of Christian thing, but then you went back to the church. And I was like, I want to know what your perspective on like the whole music touring thing because once it wasn't a Christian band, right? It was just a band. Yeah, just a band. So like, yeah, looking back on those experiences, what was it like touring with a band and being a Christian? At that time, a lot of people were actually starting to talk about this. You had bands like Switchfoot where people, they were kind of getting some mainstream attention, you know, that they started out as a Christian band. And you weren't sure, are they still Christian? Are they writing Christian music? Or is this, you know, are they writing for the mainstream? And so there was a lot of talk and blog posts being written about like, what does it really mean to be a Christian and to be a musician, not making explicitly Christian music, you know, and like, I think maybe we were, we were a little bit too early in the sense that, you know, I think now I would have, if I were to have become, you know, pursued music now. I think I would have a much better handle on, you know, the type of musician I would want to be, but we were at that time, I was really trying to figure it out, you know, anytime I wasn't doing something explicitly Christian, I felt like shame even because I grew up in a church context where culture and the church were two separate things. You know, I was at a youth retreat when they made us bring all of our secular CDs and we had to burn them in the fire to this day, I really am upset about that because I lost some of my favorite CDs. And I think yeah, like I think I had such a shallow theology around what it means to be a Christian and culture at that time, you know, I thought that if the music, if you didn't explicitly present the gospel or if you didn't explicitly say Jesus name in the songs, I thought I was diluting the gospel or I was selling out or I was being ashamed of my faith. And that was like a lot of unlearning that I had to do over time, whereas I think now I feel like, you know, one of our kind of values as a church actually is holistic faith. And so, you know, at our church we have ceramics workshops, you know, we have swing dancing workshops, we have happy hours and we're constantly actually seeing, it's not Christ against culture, you know, it's Christ in culture, you know, and seeing Christ and everything, you know, and seeing, you know, I say often that our church that discipleship is not the process of becoming more Christian, it's the process of becoming more human. And the idea is that yeah, like, you know, Jesus wasn't the most fully Christian person to ever walk the earth, you know, he was the most fully human person to ever walk the earth. And now I love when musicians talk about the whole spectrum of life, you know, I think that all of that belongs to God, you know. And so I think I have a much more robust theology around that, but at that time in my early 20s, I really struggled and a lot of people asked that question to me, you know, are you a Christian band? What does it mean to be a Christian, you know, in this secular space? And so I wrestled with that a lot during that season. You're making me cry. And now people know why I'm so obsessed with citizens. So yeah, what would your advice be with people like, because you're in LA and like the Hollywood seems like everywhere, right? What would you tell people trying to pursue this career of fame, you know, not necessarily for themselves, but like they feel like it's like what they're called to, how to navigate that and not lose sight of your human being spreading the goodness of God wherever you are. Yeah, I think, you know, one thing I do, because yeah, we at our church, we do have a lot of people who come to LA specifically to, you know, pursue acting or music or something in the creative space to make a name for themselves. And so much, it's interesting, like I maybe 20 years ago, Jason might say, you know, fame is bad and don't have these worldly pursuits. Now I think when I see people like pursuing their dreams or wanting to, you know, be a musician or wanting to be an influencer. Like I see a really good desire. For me, it shows that everyone is searching for meaning everyone is searching for fulfillment. Everyone is trying to find out who they are. So, you know, one thing is like, I always want to affirm the desire, because like I see that it's, it's good and it's hardwired in us, you know. And I think the danger is when we try to fill that desire with things that weren't meant to fill that desire. And so what I try to do, at least when I preach to that specific congregation, is really trying to bring home being rooted in your identity and Christ look like where, you know, getting the thing isn't going to be what defines you. But how do you ground your identity in such a way that everything else is just a way for you not to, not to find an identity, but a way for you to live out that identity. So I'll give you a really practical example of how that plays out. And I'll use one of my friends as an example of this. I think that when, if you're an actor and you believe that making it an acting or becoming a famous actor is going to satisfy your deepest desires, then when you go for an audition, it basically turns everyone in the room into like either someone that's going to potentially stand in the way of you solidifying that. Of you solidifying that identity, send in the way of your worthiness or significance, or you'll see them as a tool that you can use to get ahead in the industry, you know. But I think one way that actors can really live out their faith and live into their identity and crisis. You truly believe and truly grasp that, hey, you have everything you could ever want in Christ that, you know, your identity is rooted in him, your significance and worth is found in him. Then you can go into an audition room and really genuinely like root for the people other people in the audition room. You know, you don't see them as competition and you can actually audition like free from the belief that if you don't get this audition, your life is over. And that's like a really free, liberating way to live. You know, so people ask me all the time, like how do I, how am I, do I practice my faith in the secular space? And it's not always evangelism, you know, and sometimes it, you know, I think there are times that call for that. But a lot of times it's living your life in such a way that you're free from, from the need to prove yourself, to protect your image, to validate yourself. And I think when people see that, it's so counter-cultural, it's so obvious that something is going on. The hope is that, you know, that would lead then to a relationship in which you can share the gospel and say like, hey, this is why I live the way that I do. And so, yeah, I think in every space, but maybe in an LA specifically that creative space, I think you're constantly wrestling with questions of identity. And so I would say that's a, that's a big piece of how I at least preach to that particular crowd in our church. Yeah, the words I'm getting is, if you can't evangelize, at least be an example. Yeah. It's pretty good, yeah. So, how did you go from this haguan or educational academy, all the cranes now, to being a senior pastor? You know, we started, we were kind of a pandemic baby, you know, in that sense, that was an interesting time to kind of launch a new church. But maybe the best possible time as well, because I think so to give you a little bit more of the story from the educational center, I did that for about five years. And then 30 is creeping up. And again, another existential crisis. And at the time, the academy was doing really well, and we were starting to talk about potentially expanding it to multiple locations. And so, that was a huge kind of hinge point. And it was, I had to really ask myself, is this what you want to do for the rest of your life? Because the moment we expand, pretty much it was just going to be my life after that point. And the thing with, if any, you know, for those with experience in this space, it's so cyclical spring fall, spring, summer fall, everything just kind of repeats. You could literally close your eyes and wake up, and it's 20 years later, and you've been doing this work for 20 years. And so I knew either I was going to go full steam ahead, or I was going to have to really reevaluate what do I want to do for the rest of my life. Right around that time, Carolyn and I were visiting L.A. and basically visited a church and the pastor there, what felt like on a whim, you know, I met him for the first time. And he basically had heard about me from different people at the church and invited me to be the full-time worship director. And that was huge because Carolyn and I had only been married for a year, at that point less than a year. And two, it would have forced us to move, uproot our lives in Philadelphia and move to the west coast. There were so many different implications. Like it was going to be a huge pay cut, you know, it was going to be a huge move. And, you know, I'm from Southern California, but Carol knew nobody in SoCal. And so it was an enormous transition for her. But, you know, God works in mysterious ways, and basically six months later, I had gone through the process six months later. We were packing our star bags, and we had sold the Academy. Thankfully, the people who bought the Academy, I think, ended up actually expanding it to multiple locations. But, yeah, we moved over. And even then, I don't think I was thinking that I was going to be ever be a traditional teaching preaching pastor. The way the role was sold to me was almost perfect because it was, hey, Jason, you can come back to SoCal, your home, you know. Basically, you're going to be doing music, you're going to be taking care of the creatives in our church. We would love for you to do a little bit of teaching, and the church at the time was only five years old. So we would love for you to kind of put on an entrepreneur hat a little bit and try new things. And so in some ways, it was a convergence of everything I'd done in my twenties in one position. So it was almost like a perfect scenario. And so, you know, did that for five years. And, you know, what do you know? Five years later, I had another existential crisis. And that five years was such an important period of time for me, you know, and our family. During that time, both my kids were born. So during that time, my mother-in-law passed from lung cancer. And so like, our family was navigating a lot of different shifts. And we were like, life just punched us in the mouth during that time. During, I would say, the community that we were a part of was so important and sustained us really during that season of our lives. So, yeah, 35 rolls around and, you know, Carol asks me like, okay, what's the next thing? You know, do you want to really take this worship leading thing, you know, and go hard there? You know, do you want to pivot? And I felt like a pivot was necessary. And this is the part that was interesting because I was doing a little bit of teaching at the church. The thing is, even though I did music for a long time, I still had a lot of imposter syndrome and a lot of insecurities when it came to music. And it was a part of me that felt like I didn't have what it took to really go full on with music. You know, I think maybe on the East Coast and Philly, you know, you have these big dreams. If you come to LA, you're all of a sudden a small fish in a big pond. Everyone is pursuing music. And if there's something really liberating about that, I remember I cried the first day I was back in LA because the first like 10 people I met were aspiring musicians. I was like, this is my people, you know, but at the same time, it did breed a lot of insecurity in me to think like, what do I, what do I think I have that? You know, I'm going to be able to do what all these people have been trying to do and haven't been able to do it. But then like when it came to teaching preaching, I also was like, there's no way I could do this. Because here I am 35 years old, barely preaching like my first sermon, you know, that was like another realm. So I was feeling a lot of like, I was feeling stuck because I felt like I don't think I can succeed as a traditional teaching preaching pastor. And I don't think I could succeed as a musician. Like what do I do? And clearly, you know, I was seeking significance in these things. And so basically I took some time off from ministry to go back to school and Carol is a MVP for this because we had two kids and she became the primary breadwinner of the house. And she said, you know, I think you need to like be back with other people learning, you know, I think you need to like discern God's call on your life. And so I went back to finish seminary, which I had started when I when I start as a worship director and it was the best decision of my life. Because during that time, yeah, was like I reconnected with my faith, like apart from my position. And you know, I was healing from a lot of stuff that had happened in the past. And I was meeting so many different people who were really pursuing cool things in the church. And so basically what that yielded was right around 35, 36. Carol and I decided we wanted a church plan, you know, and so I, you know, I had a mentor in seminary who was helping me kind of like vision cast for this church plan. We had a very out of the box vision for what that church plan looked like. You're one of the actually the first people I talked to you about that idea. And it was really like a manifestation of a lot of the things I had wrestled with personally, you know, over the course of my life. And it was seeing how the marketplace and the church could kind of come together sacred and secular, you know, and it was this third space and a reimagining of the church. And we were super excited about it and you know, we had our launch team set and we basically were fully ready to start raising funds for it. And then in the 11th hour, the church that I was a part of where I was the worship director of the pastor, let me know that he was transitioning and that, you know, the leadership had decided they would like me to take over the church. And that was such a huge moment because I knew nothing about leading a church. I knew nothing about being what being a pastor even looked like, let alone being a lead pastor of a church that was losing its founding pastor. And so at first, you know, Carolyn, I respectfully decline because we just didn't feel like we were up for it. We felt very inadequate to do that. But after a lot of prayer, a lot of meetings with different mentors of ours, the quote that kept coming back to us was this quote in life together by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. And he says, people who love community destroy it, but people who love people create community everywhere they go. And for us, we realized that we had fallen so in love with this ideal of community, like this vision of this church that didn't exist, even exist yet. And there were all these people that were going to be without a shepherd, you know, and that there were all these people who were a part of our lives. They have been our community in this crazy season of our lives. And we just felt like Jesus is prodding like, do you love me feed my lambs, you know. And so after a lot of prayer and discernment, we decided to step into that role with the, we asked for made three requests and it was one, can we basically replant this church with like a new leadership. So we brought in our launch team. So it's basically starting over, can we change the name of the church to kind of mark this new season and then can we move the location of the church to be more in line with kind of our vision to be more rooted in the city. And thankfully the leadership at the time was all for it. And so in November, we launched November of 2019, we launched as citizens at this high school in the middle of downtown LA four months before the whole world shut down, you know, and why I say going back to why I say that that was such a gift to us in a way was that I think when we first stepped into the role. I was struggling with a lot of, yeah, again, a lot of imposter syndrome in terms of my mindset was how do I just sustain this church and keep this church from completely imploding under my leadership. So I wasn't, you know, making bold moves, I wasn't like doing the things that were on my heart because I was just so scared everyone was going to leave. Well, when the pandemic happened and the whole world shut down, it was basically this hard reset on the church. So you couldn't even do church the same way, even if you wanted to. So we basically had a clean slate to try so many of the things that God had put on our hearts. We basically like during that time, as you know, I mean, you had to as a church navigate so much grief. You had to navigate transition, you had to navigate racial justice, politics, all these things that I would say pastors maybe have to go through in a 20 year span of ministry, like pastors had to navigate in one year. And for us to kind of launch our church in that season was a gift because in some ways when we came back after the pandemic, like it felt like wow, okay, this is a new church and it really solidified our identity of around what kind of church do we want to be. How are we going to navigate these issues that are going to continue to be issues moving forward and so. And you know, I it was a time where I was allowed to experiment with my preaching, you know, discover my my own personal voice because again, you know, I mean, you couldn't even preach the same way because you had to preach to a camera. And so that whole season was so important for me and I really see it in a lot of ways as the grace of God who allowed us to go through that. Yeah, like when I first heard that you're going to be this lead pastor, I was like, that's hilarious because I knew it wasn't something you wanted, but it was kind of like put on your lap. But how did you convince your wife to uproot her life to a place where she didn't know anything like what convinced her. Yeah, I mean, definitely I think she trusts me, but I think it was really interesting because when we got married, she moved down from New York to be back in Philly. At the time, I was serving at renewal and I love that church. It was, it had been my community since college. Shout out to Pastor Dwight and Paula, like hugely impactful mentors in my life. I was serving. I was the worship leader there. So I was so integrated into that community. Carol came down and basically went back to her home church. And at the time she wasn't, that wasn't necessarily her community, but in the few months before marriage, that community really embraced Carol, like the women of that church really embraced her, loved on her and. And so a decision that I thought was going to be a no-brainer for both of us to now come to my church actually became a hotly contested topic before marriage where we were trying to figure out where, you know, where we were going to go together. And both of us wanted to stay at the communities that we were a part of. I remember talking to one of my mentors and I kind of shared with him the entire situation and, you know, it was interesting because I completely assumed that he would say, of course, Carol should go to your church, your super integrated there. I thought he was going to bring up Ephesians 5 and talk about wives submitting to their husbands and all this stuff, but he says, oh, this is the easiest decision you're ever going to have to make. He was like, he's like, Jason, you should go. And he said, you know, part of what leadership actually looks like is you go first, you know, you love first. And it's going to be a new community. He's like, you have two options. Either Carol comes into this community and everyone she meets is like, she's going to be Jason's wife. You know, it's like, oh, you're Jason's wife, you know, or you put yourself in an uncomfortable position. You lay down like these titles, like worship leader, things like that. And you go to a church as a no-namer and you be Carol's husband, you know. And so that's what I did. And that's how we started our marriage. And the irony of this all is that the sacrifice Carol made was exponentially greater than that sacrifice. You know, because it was crazy because I went there and and at that church, the people at that church became some of my closest friends who I still love and who love me to this day. So it was a, it was an amazing decision, even on that front. But one of the things Carol did say when we, when she said, let's go to LA, you doing that, what you thought was such a small act. Like for me, it made me trust you to say, Jason is not the type of husband. That is just going to make me follow him everywhere, you know, but he's willing to go first, you know. And so I mean, I always tell people I got the much sweeter end of the bargain there. Because now here she is never asked to be a lead pastor's wife, but here she is now doing that. And so, but I think, yeah, those moments, my encouragement maybe for husbands listening, you know, would be I think. That's what for me, like, that's what leadership looks like. That's what loving your wife as Christ loved the church looks like. And obviously I don't do that perfectly, but I would say when I look back, I think that advice was so important for me to hear early on. And it set the tone for our whole marriage. It's funny because like, it's the major moments in our lives that make the biggest impact. And so I'm realizing more and more, I need to stay consistent because I don't know when those major moments are on the last minute. And you look back. And when I heard that story, I was like, okay, I need to be more like Jason. Like, man, yeah, so what is your hope for not just citizens, but for LA because I know you truly have a heart for the city, not just your church, you know, that's part of the reason why I love your vision and what you're trying to do. So what is your hope like in the next maybe five years or 10 years? Yeah, I mean, you're right. Like I never saw myself leading a big church. And nor do I think I'm really good at it to be honest. I think that's been a huge learning curve for me as the church has grown. Learning how to be more of like an organizational leader that's just so out of my wheelhouse. I think my sweet spot is more like is being more of a relational leader. And so a smaller size is more conducive to that. Yeah, I mean, one thing that I would hope for is that citizens can birth more churches in LA. I think there can't be enough churches in LA. It's a city that man desperately needs the gospel where I think you can say this about all the major cities. But especially in LA, like celebrity culture, Hollywood, comfort, all of these things have such a chokehold on our city. And, you know, I really think if we could mobilize and empower believers, even at our church alone, like there are so many movers and shakers in different industries. And if we could mobilize and empower them to think differently about their life and about, you know, like why God has placed them in the industries that he's placed them. I really think the city could be one for the gospel. And so I think for me, I would love to see more churches, but more than that, I would love to see like just more believers, like really take ownership of their faith and be scattered in the different industry. So like it's never been about like building this like I don't want to build a battle, you know, build something beautiful for ourselves. And I would love to release people into the city and see them change their respective industries. Okay, last couple of questions. What are you hoping for at Feathley? I mean, when you first told me about Feathley, I think the thing that was most attractive to me was just the opportunity to connect with other pastors and leaders who are doing amazing things that we might never hear about if we weren't intentionally connected with them, you know. Like especially at a church like ours, you're so busy like running your own church and you're so in the weeds, like it's very rare that, you know, you have the time to build relationships with people outside of your community or, you know, like for example, like our children's director for her to be able to connect with other children's ministry directors. I mean, that's like so hard to do, like even relationships within the church are so hard to do. And I feel like the beauty of Feathley is that it bridges that gap, you know, and I think for a lot of ministry leaders, pastors, you can feel so alone and you can feel so isolated. And I feel like there really isn't a vehicle that kind of helps us to connect with, you know, people doing the same things where we feel less alone. We know that what we're grappling with is not like unique to us somewhere we can share resources and really do this thing together. Because I don't think it's, I don't think the work of the kingdom is something that one church can do. So I think I'm most excited about like the collaborative opportunities across churches. And how can we be a praying for you and your family? I would say first and foremost for my marriage, you know, I remember hearing, I remember reading about a pastor who was asked the question, like how's your ministry doing? And his answer was ask my wife. And yeah, I think like as the church has grown and as ministry responsibilities continue to kind of increase, I want to make sure that my marriage is a priority. My family is a priority. And so and I know that's kind of where the enemy will strike, you know, ministry leaders, their marriages, their families. So right now, thankfully, I feel like Carolyn and I are enough are finding a really good rhythm. And our kids are in a nice sweet spot. They're nine and six. So they're like just kind of self sufficient enough. But, you know, they haven't fully entered the pubescent stage. But yeah, I mean, I would say the biggest thing would be, you know, for for God to protect my marriage, my family. And I think that will be the most impactful thing for even my own ministry. Thanks Jason. This was a long time coming. This was fun. Alright, that's it for the podcast guys. Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories podcast. 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