Hitting the Ball You Cannot See - Jurie Kriel | Faithly Podcast

100:00:00.440 --> 00:00:02.840If young people aren't coming to your Sunday200:00:02.840 --> 00:00:05.960morning services, then try doing something on a300:00:05.960 --> 00:00:06.380Sunday night.400:00:06.500 --> 00:00:07.560Try doing something on a Friday.500:00:07.720 --> 00:00:09.120Try decentralizing.600:00:09.500 --> 00:00:12.420Use the limitations you have and do something700:00:12.420 --> 00:00:14.000different and fail.800:00:14.480 --> 00:00:15.640Fail quickly.900:00:23.480 --> 00:00:25.340This is The Faithly Podcast.1000:00:26.880 --> 00:00:29.860Well, today on The Faithly Podcast, I am1100:00:29.860 --> 00:00:31.360joined by Jurie Kriel.1200:00:32.000 --> 00:00:34.060Jurie is based in Austin, Texas.1300:00:34.440 --> 00:00:36.080He leads Next Move.1400:00:36.520 --> 00:00:39.400He's on the executive leadership team of Shoreline1500:00:39.400 --> 00:00:42.340Church, and he serves with the Lausanne Movement.1600:00:43.220 --> 00:00:45.460He is also the author of a new1700:00:45.460 --> 00:00:48.140book, I believe your first book, Jurie, which1800:00:48.140 --> 00:00:50.460is called Hitting the Ball You Cannot See.1900:00:51.000 --> 00:00:51.640Welcome, Jurie.2000:00:52.180 --> 00:00:53.560Alicia, it's great to be here.2100:00:55.100 --> 00:00:57.660Before we dive into the new book, I'd2200:00:57.660 --> 00:00:59.300love for our listeners just to get to2300:00:59.300 --> 00:01:00.340know you a little bit.2400:01:00.340 --> 00:01:02.260Can you tell us a little bit about2500:01:02.260 --> 00:01:05.220your ministry journey, how you got to be2600:01:05.220 --> 00:01:07.700where you are, and ultimately, what made you2700:01:07.700 --> 00:01:08.220write the book?2800:01:09.240 --> 00:01:09.720Oh, wow.2900:01:09.980 --> 00:01:13.180Okay, that's three questions that might keep me3000:01:13.180 --> 00:01:13.920busy for a while.3100:01:14.020 --> 00:01:15.520So, a little bit about my ministry journey3200:01:15.520 --> 00:01:19.560is that I am evidence of the fact3300:01:19.560 --> 00:01:21.580that God can eat straight shots with crooked3400:01:21.580 --> 00:01:24.240sticks, because that's who God is, right?3500:01:24.320 --> 00:01:27.360So, if I reflect on my ministry journey,3600:01:27.460 --> 00:01:28.820it's just grace upon grace.3700:01:29.060 --> 00:01:30.960It's the power of God.3800:01:31.080 --> 00:01:32.200It's the ability of God.3900:01:32.620 --> 00:01:36.880The early days of my call was delivering4000:01:36.880 --> 00:01:40.480absolutely terrible messages or sermons and seeing the4100:01:40.480 --> 00:01:42.880Holy Spirit bring people to salvation, not because4200:01:42.880 --> 00:01:44.780of me, but absolutely regardless of me.4300:01:45.480 --> 00:01:48.140So, most of what I've seen in ministry4400:01:48.140 --> 00:01:49.940is not because of me, but in spite4500:01:49.940 --> 00:01:50.440of me.4600:01:51.580 --> 00:01:54.480So, having seen God do some great things.4700:01:54.560 --> 00:01:56.440I was born in apartheid South Africa.4800:01:57.240 --> 00:02:01.800So, I had the privilege of seeing a4900:02:01.800 --> 00:02:06.120nation transform into true democracy and seeing God5000:02:06.120 --> 00:02:08.919bring a nation from the brink of civil5100:02:08.919 --> 00:02:12.800war right back to reconciliation and love and5200:02:12.800 --> 00:02:13.760racial reconciliation.5300:02:14.220 --> 00:02:15.480So, I got to be a part of5400:02:15.480 --> 00:02:16.240a lot of that.5500:02:17.700 --> 00:02:22.260Then, I started and led a Bible college5600:02:22.260 --> 00:02:26.500in the Cape region, helped plant churches in5700:02:26.500 --> 00:02:31.900different places from Japan to London to different5800:02:31.900 --> 00:02:32.840places in Europe.5900:02:33.700 --> 00:02:36.740Then, I got involved with a church called6000:02:36.740 --> 00:02:40.480Doxodeo in South Africa, where I got to6100:02:40.480 --> 00:02:44.220initially just serve in a large church and6200:02:44.220 --> 00:02:47.840eventually lead a megachurch in that context and6300:02:47.840 --> 00:02:50.980ended up leading a multi-campus environment.6400:02:52.020 --> 00:02:53.840I got reminded of the call, ended up6500:02:53.840 --> 00:02:58.920in the U.S. to first be pastor6600:02:58.920 --> 00:03:01.540for preaching for a large church here in6700:03:01.540 --> 00:03:04.020Austin, Texas, and then planted a church in6800:03:04.020 --> 00:03:04.880downtown Austin.6900:03:05.080 --> 00:03:08.180If you know anything about downtown Austin, when7000:03:08.180 --> 00:03:10.440I announced it to the church where I7100:03:10.440 --> 00:03:11.800was preaching at the time, one of the7200:03:11.800 --> 00:03:13.800ladies came to me afterwards and said, but7300:03:13.800 --> 00:03:15.000that's Sodom and Gomorrah.7400:03:15.480 --> 00:03:18.580And so, we planted a high-tech, high7500:03:18.580 --> 00:03:20.940-touch church in one of the least-reached7600:03:20.940 --> 00:03:23.940urban cores in the USA, which was a7700:03:23.940 --> 00:03:26.920fantastic journey, ended up merging with Shoreline Church.7800:03:27.400 --> 00:03:30.800DJurieng that journey, I was really confronted by7900:03:30.800 --> 00:03:34.700the next generation in the U.S. context8000:03:34.700 --> 00:03:37.640stepping away from the faith and figJurieng out8100:03:37.640 --> 00:03:39.240what to do with regards to that.8200:03:40.220 --> 00:03:42.520So, that's where the next move was birthed8300:03:42.520 --> 00:03:43.000out of it.8400:03:43.760 --> 00:03:46.580A lot of my unity work in the8500:03:46.580 --> 00:03:48.780global church was in the city space, where8600:03:48.780 --> 00:03:51.580I helped start moving to Africa, where we8700:03:51.580 --> 00:03:53.760were able to minister into 50 African cities.8800:03:54.360 --> 00:03:56.780But in all of this, I think there8900:03:56.780 --> 00:03:59.540were two themes that were continually emerging.9000:04:00.320 --> 00:04:02.720The one theme is the theme of the9100:04:02.720 --> 00:04:05.360next generation and the importance that we have9200:04:05.360 --> 00:04:07.140a high level of relevance in the way9300:04:07.140 --> 00:04:10.320that we put down the church or the9400:04:10.320 --> 00:04:11.200message of the church.9500:04:11.400 --> 00:04:14.080And the second theme that kept on emerging9600:04:14.080 --> 00:04:16.579is this duplication in the church challenge.9700:04:16.660 --> 00:04:19.940So, there's no lack of resource, there's no9800:04:19.940 --> 00:04:21.840lack of idea, there's no lack of intent9900:04:21.840 --> 00:04:23.900from the heart of God to fulfill the10000:04:23.900 --> 00:04:27.540Great Commission, but there's an abundance of duplication10100:04:27.540 --> 00:04:29.160and competition within the church.10200:04:29.160 --> 00:04:32.820And whether it's intentional duplication, or I believe10300:04:32.820 --> 00:04:35.680I can do it better, or unintentional duplication,10400:04:35.720 --> 00:04:37.320I just didn't know anyone else was doing10500:04:37.320 --> 00:04:40.160this, if we could optimize what we're doing10600:04:40.160 --> 00:04:41.260in that way.10700:04:41.440 --> 00:04:44.100And so, all of that kind of mixed10800:04:44.100 --> 00:04:46.920in with just a conviction that technology is10900:04:46.920 --> 00:04:49.120neutral and should be used to the good.11000:04:49.300 --> 00:04:51.060It's not a bad thing, but it certainly11100:04:51.060 --> 00:04:54.740is changing our world, kind of culminated in11200:04:54.740 --> 00:04:56.700what ended up being a book about the11300:04:56.700 --> 00:04:57.400future of the faith.11400:04:57.960 --> 00:05:00.960So, I could tell you more, but that's11500:05:00.960 --> 00:05:02.880kind of touching on some of the mountain11600:05:02.880 --> 00:05:03.400peaks there.11700:05:04.000 --> 00:05:04.640I love it.11800:05:04.700 --> 00:05:07.840Well, with all that you've done, Jurie, you11900:05:07.840 --> 00:05:10.160look really good for being 150 years old.12000:05:12.000 --> 00:05:15.620I mean, you've done a lot of things12100:05:15.620 --> 00:05:17.780over a lot of different contexts.12200:05:20.020 --> 00:05:22.920Before we dive into the book, actually, can12300:05:22.920 --> 00:05:24.720you talk a little bit more about Next12400:05:24.720 --> 00:05:25.060Move?12500:05:25.700 --> 00:05:27.560It's all about the next generation, right?12600:05:27.600 --> 00:05:29.860It's all about the next generation knowing and12700:05:29.860 --> 00:05:30.760following Jesus.12800:05:31.300 --> 00:05:34.180So, what we do day-to-day is12900:05:34.180 --> 00:05:36.100we build relationships that change the world.13000:05:36.700 --> 00:05:39.920And it sounds so flaky, almost, right?13100:05:40.160 --> 00:05:43.360So, I always say, the Next Move, we13200:05:43.360 --> 00:05:44.860don't do anything, right?13300:05:44.980 --> 00:05:47.760We just accelerate what others are doing by13400:05:47.760 --> 00:05:49.480putting them into the right relationships.13500:05:49.480 --> 00:05:52.520You know, so if you study church history,13600:05:52.680 --> 00:05:55.820Alicia, I mean, everybody remembers Martin Luther, right?13700:05:55.880 --> 00:05:59.980Or everybody remembers Wesley, or, you know, there's13800:05:59.980 --> 00:06:01.380these key figures we remember.13900:06:01.820 --> 00:06:04.260But if you go study their stories, what's14000:06:04.260 --> 00:06:06.520true about each of their stories is they14100:06:06.520 --> 00:06:09.680had key relationships that brought about the change.14200:06:10.120 --> 00:06:12.320And I'm a firm believer that we can14300:06:12.320 --> 00:06:15.280stretch the sails of relationship and trust God14400:06:15.280 --> 00:06:17.220to blow the winds of revival into it.14500:06:17.720 --> 00:06:19.480And that's what Next Move is all about,14600:06:19.640 --> 00:06:22.180is we're trusting God for a next move,14700:06:22.260 --> 00:06:24.120and a next move, and a next move14800:06:24.120 --> 00:06:25.920of His Spirit on planet Earth.14900:06:27.100 --> 00:06:29.820But the part that we do is we15000:06:29.820 --> 00:06:34.880build meaningful, transformational relationships between the right leaders15100:06:34.880 --> 00:06:37.100around the world to accelerate the gospel.15200:06:37.280 --> 00:06:40.400That eliminates duplication, that reaches the next generation,15300:06:40.580 --> 00:06:42.720that moves the ball forward.15400:06:42.720 --> 00:06:47.140We do consulting with organizations, we help facilitate15500:06:47.140 --> 00:06:50.540conversations, and then we have these 10 regional15600:06:50.540 --> 00:06:52.920teams around the world, where each of these15700:06:52.920 --> 00:06:55.540regional teams does that on a regional basis15800:06:55.540 --> 00:06:57.560in their different contexts.15900:06:57.980 --> 00:07:01.460So Next Move is a very little, tiny16000:07:01.460 --> 00:07:02.620organization.16100:07:03.080 --> 00:07:04.720We're only in about 71 countries.16200:07:05.280 --> 00:07:07.960But the power of the Next Move is16300:07:07.960 --> 00:07:09.840the fruit growing on other people's trees.16400:07:09.840 --> 00:07:12.600It's the effect of the great leaders that's16500:07:12.600 --> 00:07:14.660a part of this, more than what it16600:07:14.660 --> 00:07:16.480is the work that we do.16700:07:16.620 --> 00:07:19.160It's the work that we accelerate that's really16800:07:19.160 --> 00:07:19.800significant.16900:07:20.220 --> 00:07:22.840Think of the Clapham sect in the fall17000:07:22.840 --> 00:07:23.380of slavery.17100:07:24.060 --> 00:07:26.880It was essentially this home group that met17200:07:26.880 --> 00:07:27.340together.17300:07:27.860 --> 00:07:31.220And it's these relationships that enabled William Wilberforce17400:07:31.220 --> 00:07:32.260to do what he did.17500:07:32.540 --> 00:07:34.620But without those relationships, he could never have17600:07:34.620 --> 00:07:35.040done it.17700:07:35.520 --> 00:07:38.560We, you know, none of us can cause17800:07:38.560 --> 00:07:41.900that, can make a William Wilberforce happen, right?17900:07:42.000 --> 00:07:42.860It's an act of God.18000:07:42.940 --> 00:07:44.420It's God that raises a leader at the18100:07:44.420 --> 00:07:45.380right time in the right place.18200:07:45.700 --> 00:07:47.780But what we can do is we can18300:07:47.780 --> 00:07:50.280build the net of relationships around those individuals18400:07:50.860 --> 00:07:51.920to set them up.18500:07:52.300 --> 00:07:55.380And that's different activities, but that's essentially what18600:07:55.380 --> 00:07:56.020Next Move is.18700:07:56.460 --> 00:07:57.040Yeah, wow.18800:07:57.180 --> 00:07:58.920And how long have you been leading Next18900:07:58.920 --> 00:07:59.200Move?19000:07:59.660 --> 00:08:01.580We started about five years ago.19100:08:01.960 --> 00:08:02.540Five years ago.19200:08:02.540 --> 00:08:04.880So, in some ways, I'd argue I've always19300:08:04.880 --> 00:08:07.620been leading Next Move because it's just been19400:08:07.620 --> 00:08:08.580relationships, right?19500:08:08.760 --> 00:08:10.520So, and leading is a very strong word19600:08:10.520 --> 00:08:11.280you're using here.19700:08:13.520 --> 00:08:15.740I'm not worthy to tie most of the19800:08:15.740 --> 00:08:17.480shoelaces of the people that's a part of19900:08:17.480 --> 00:08:18.000the Next Move.20000:08:18.120 --> 00:08:20.260There's some incredible leaders in this community.20100:08:21.420 --> 00:08:23.460But it's a privilege to set the table20200:08:23.460 --> 00:08:26.740and to see what's emerging from those conversations.20300:08:27.300 --> 00:08:27.600Great.20400:08:27.840 --> 00:08:30.240Well, thanks for explaining all of that.20500:08:30.240 --> 00:08:32.380I think it's important context, because it seems20600:08:32.380 --> 00:08:35.120to me that Next Move and all the20700:08:35.120 --> 00:08:38.320work that led to Next Move is a20800:08:38.320 --> 00:08:42.059lot of what has been poured into this20900:08:42.059 --> 00:08:42.679book.21000:08:42.960 --> 00:08:46.320Yeah, and the book is a collaborative work,21100:08:46.520 --> 00:08:46.720Alicia.21200:08:47.440 --> 00:08:49.640I'm not very smart, but I've got amazing21300:08:49.640 --> 00:08:50.220friends.21400:08:50.740 --> 00:08:52.640And, you know, it's listening to these people.21500:08:52.760 --> 00:08:54.100It's listening to some of these leaders.21600:08:54.400 --> 00:08:55.980And, you know, as I explained in the21700:08:55.980 --> 00:08:57.820beginning of the book, I was invited by21800:08:57.820 --> 00:09:00.740the World Evangelical Alliance to facilitate a conversation21900:09:00.740 --> 00:09:01.760on the future of the gospel.22000:09:02.440 --> 00:09:04.040And then, you know, we had the Next22100:09:04.040 --> 00:09:06.200Move community together for the Not On Our22200:09:06.200 --> 00:09:08.080Watch Now conversation in Dallas.22300:09:08.560 --> 00:09:11.120And then we had, you know, I got22400:09:11.120 --> 00:09:14.080to work with Luzon on this whole process22500:09:14.080 --> 00:09:16.880of the State of the Great Commission report22600:09:16.880 --> 00:09:17.840and the Fourth Congress.22700:09:18.380 --> 00:09:19.940And then I got to work with the22800:09:19.940 --> 00:09:23.600International Council for Evangelical Theological Education on the22900:09:23.600 --> 00:09:26.440future of the gospel, future of theological education23000:09:26.440 --> 00:09:27.060conversation.23100:09:27.240 --> 00:09:29.900So I had the privilege of facilitating all23200:09:29.900 --> 00:09:32.620these conversations and speaking to all these amazing23300:09:32.620 --> 00:09:33.000leaders.23400:09:33.000 --> 00:09:36.080And I just realized there's some themes emerging23500:09:36.080 --> 00:09:39.180from this process, and there's some learning about23600:09:39.180 --> 00:09:41.660how the world is changing and how we23700:09:41.660 --> 00:09:42.620can respond to it.23800:09:42.900 --> 00:09:44.380And that's kind of what brought it about,23900:09:44.540 --> 00:09:48.300was these conversations with, you know, people that—I24000:09:48.300 --> 00:09:50.940just curated the great things they said, right?24100:09:50.940 --> 00:09:53.720The creativity is forgetting where you got it24200:09:53.720 --> 00:09:54.000from.24300:09:54.460 --> 00:09:55.720And I'm very aware of that.24400:09:56.600 --> 00:09:59.220I'm excited to bring our listeners into it24500:09:59.220 --> 00:09:59.680as well.24600:10:00.280 --> 00:10:02.820So with that, I'd love to ask you24700:10:02.820 --> 00:10:07.200about the title, Hitting the Ball You Cannot24800:10:07.200 --> 00:10:07.520See.24900:10:07.620 --> 00:10:09.020I have an eight-year-old son, and25000:10:09.020 --> 00:10:11.920as a baseball mom, that totally resonated with25100:10:11.920 --> 00:10:12.180me.25200:10:12.920 --> 00:10:15.280What is it about that metaphor that you25300:10:15.280 --> 00:10:19.000think really reveals leadership in this changing world?25400:10:19.000 --> 00:10:21.860Well, Alicia, it's a metaphor that I came25500:10:21.860 --> 00:10:24.140across not in baseball, but in cricket growing25600:10:24.140 --> 00:10:24.540up.25700:10:25.180 --> 00:10:27.120And actually, in the book, you'll find it25800:10:27.120 --> 00:10:29.220in baseball and a couple of cricket references25900:10:29.220 --> 00:10:31.600just because of the global audience.26000:10:31.880 --> 00:10:34.740But it's this concept or this idea that26100:10:34.740 --> 00:10:37.600when a fastball comes your way, it comes26200:10:37.600 --> 00:10:39.680at you at a speed that you can't26300:10:39.680 --> 00:10:40.500hit it, right?26400:10:40.560 --> 00:10:42.020So the time that it takes for the26500:10:42.020 --> 00:10:44.800ball to leave the pitcher's hand to the26600:10:44.800 --> 00:10:47.420bat of the batsman is less than the26700:10:47.420 --> 00:10:49.180time it takes for your eye to recognize26800:10:49.180 --> 00:10:51.620the ball, send a signal from your brain26900:10:51.620 --> 00:10:54.060to your hand to swing the bat and27000:10:54.060 --> 00:10:54.640hit the ball.27100:10:55.020 --> 00:10:58.620It's scientifically impossible to hit a fastball, right?27200:10:58.720 --> 00:11:01.980And what the book essentially is based on27300:11:01.980 --> 00:11:03.360is we're living in a day and age27400:11:03.360 --> 00:11:05.720where the world is changing so quickly that27500:11:05.720 --> 00:11:08.860it's impossible for us to hit the ball27600:11:08.860 --> 00:11:10.100that's coming our way, right?27700:11:10.140 --> 00:11:11.680To hit that home run that God has27800:11:11.680 --> 00:11:12.180called you for.27900:11:12.720 --> 00:11:14.760But the reality is, and the beauty of28000:11:14.760 --> 00:11:17.300all this is that every weekend, every time28100:11:17.300 --> 00:11:19.060a baseball game is played, every time a28200:11:19.060 --> 00:11:22.020cricket game is played, this miracle of hitting28300:11:22.020 --> 00:11:24.700the ball people can't see is happening.28400:11:26.000 --> 00:11:28.620And I believe it is because they understand28500:11:28.620 --> 00:11:30.540anticipation more than reaction.28600:11:31.220 --> 00:11:34.300And if we can learn to anticipate the28700:11:34.300 --> 00:11:36.220shifts that's happening in our world, right?28800:11:36.220 --> 00:11:38.700If you think AI, if you think media,28900:11:38.880 --> 00:11:40.260if you think truth, if you think what's29000:11:40.260 --> 00:11:42.740happening in governments right now, if you think29100:11:42.740 --> 00:11:44.900of how the world is changing, we're all29200:11:44.900 --> 00:11:48.280struggling with this inability to keep up to29300:11:48.280 --> 00:11:50.200the rapid rate of change around us.29400:11:50.460 --> 00:11:52.140But if we could learn the skill of29500:11:52.140 --> 00:11:54.940anticipation and we could, like the sons of29600:11:54.940 --> 00:11:58.360Issachar in the Bible, understand the times, if29700:11:58.360 --> 00:12:00.920we could gain those skills, I think we're29800:12:00.920 --> 00:12:02.220able to hit the ball for a home29900:12:02.220 --> 00:12:02.400run.30000:12:02.460 --> 00:12:05.080Because God is excited about the time we're30100:12:05.080 --> 00:12:05.520living in.30200:12:05.800 --> 00:12:07.540God has a plan and a purpose and30300:12:07.540 --> 00:12:09.280you've been born for a time such as30400:12:09.280 --> 00:12:09.520this.30500:12:09.520 --> 00:12:11.740As a leader, you've been placed in the30600:12:11.740 --> 00:12:14.340city and the season and the time with30700:12:14.340 --> 00:12:16.240the challenges that's around you for a time30800:12:16.240 --> 00:12:16.940such as this.30900:12:17.520 --> 00:12:18.940And the book really is just an attempt31000:12:18.940 --> 00:12:22.420to bring definition to what's happening around us31100:12:22.420 --> 00:12:24.400and then to teach some of these skills31200:12:24.400 --> 00:12:25.300of anticipation.31300:12:25.820 --> 00:12:29.680So yeah, it's six key shifts in the31400:12:29.680 --> 00:12:29.940world.31500:12:30.480 --> 00:12:32.400And for each of them, there's a definition31600:12:32.400 --> 00:12:33.020of the shift.31700:12:33.240 --> 00:12:35.860And then there's a set of skills that's31800:12:35.860 --> 00:12:38.880needed to respond to that shift in society31900:12:38.880 --> 00:12:39.700at this point in time.32000:12:40.280 --> 00:12:42.500So, when you began to write the book32100:12:42.500 --> 00:12:44.260and you began to write about these six32200:12:44.260 --> 00:12:46.700shifts, did you go into it knowing that32300:12:46.700 --> 00:12:48.100that's exactly what you'd write about?32400:12:48.220 --> 00:12:50.040Did anything change in your thinking as you32500:12:50.040 --> 00:12:51.080were putting it together?32600:12:52.060 --> 00:12:54.380Everything changed in my thinking as we were32700:12:54.380 --> 00:12:55.640putting it together, Alicia.32800:12:56.300 --> 00:13:01.700The reality is that words are to life32900:13:01.700 --> 00:13:03.600like containers are to water.33000:13:04.240 --> 00:13:06.280If you've ever tried to drink from a33100:13:06.280 --> 00:13:08.760faucet and get that water with your hand33200:13:08.760 --> 00:13:11.240or drink directly from the faucet or drink33300:13:11.240 --> 00:13:13.200from a fire hose, it's a hard thing33400:13:13.200 --> 00:13:15.360to do because you don't have a container33500:13:15.360 --> 00:13:17.400to define the water in.33600:13:17.940 --> 00:13:20.600And what words does is it gives us33700:13:20.600 --> 00:13:24.060containers to actually say, okay, this is the33800:13:24.060 --> 00:13:24.340thing.33900:13:24.460 --> 00:13:25.820Now I can move the water, I can34000:13:25.820 --> 00:13:27.680grab the glass, I can drink it, I34100:13:27.680 --> 00:13:30.680can hand you a bottle of because I'm34200:13:30.680 --> 00:13:34.140able to contain this thing that's happening in34300:13:34.140 --> 00:13:34.680a container.34400:13:35.840 --> 00:13:39.200So, I think the concepts, the best books34500:13:39.200 --> 00:13:40.960we read aren't the books that teach us34600:13:40.960 --> 00:13:42.120something new, Alicia.34700:13:42.280 --> 00:13:44.160If you list out your best books, your34800:13:44.160 --> 00:13:47.840favorite books of 2025 or your favorite books34900:13:47.840 --> 00:13:50.300of your life, you'll probably list out a35000:13:50.300 --> 00:13:51.820bunch of books that didn't teach you something35100:13:51.820 --> 00:13:55.300new, but it articulated what you already knew.35200:13:55.820 --> 00:13:58.400It gave you words for concepts that you35300:13:58.400 --> 00:13:58.800experienced.35400:13:58.800 --> 00:14:02.100So, what was exciting about the process of35500:14:02.100 --> 00:14:05.100writing the book wasn't seeing things that I35600:14:05.100 --> 00:14:06.940went, man, I've never seen this before.35700:14:07.240 --> 00:14:09.600But it was finding the words to the35800:14:09.600 --> 00:14:11.780things that I was, we've been living it.35900:14:12.280 --> 00:14:14.420And suddenly things started making sense.36000:14:15.200 --> 00:14:17.220I mean, I say there's six shifts in36100:14:17.220 --> 00:14:17.500the world.36200:14:17.580 --> 00:14:20.500We started with 50 plus shifts that we36300:14:20.500 --> 00:14:23.360narrowed down to 10, that we narrowed down36400:14:23.360 --> 00:14:23.860to six.36500:14:23.860 --> 00:14:26.520We kept on seeing correlation and we kept36600:14:26.520 --> 00:14:29.200on kind of fighting into, and actually it36700:14:29.200 --> 00:14:31.340narrowed down to three ways in which the36800:14:31.340 --> 00:14:33.820world is changing at the moment.36900:14:34.760 --> 00:14:37.400We kept on aiming to simplify this.37000:14:37.980 --> 00:14:40.520Then the exciting part, the most fun part37100:14:40.520 --> 00:14:42.900about the journey was the conversations with the37200:14:42.900 --> 00:14:43.160people.37300:14:43.540 --> 00:14:44.320You've read the book.37400:14:45.580 --> 00:14:47.260You're going to forget all this stuff I37500:14:47.260 --> 00:14:49.580said, but you're never going to forget the37600:14:49.580 --> 00:14:52.640stories that Anja Greenwood from Poland told or37700:14:52.640 --> 00:14:56.540the examples used by Kevin Lee from the37800:14:56.540 --> 00:14:57.800Chinese context, right?37900:14:57.880 --> 00:15:01.500It's those things that the real life stories38000:15:01.500 --> 00:15:03.620that really makes it make sense.38100:15:03.760 --> 00:15:05.980And it gives us a parable for our38200:15:05.980 --> 00:15:07.700own lives and the situations we face.38300:15:09.020 --> 00:15:09.840That is so good.38400:15:09.920 --> 00:15:11.120I'm going to try to remember what you38500:15:11.120 --> 00:15:11.340said.38600:15:11.400 --> 00:15:13.460I think you said words are to life38700:15:13.460 --> 00:15:16.500as containers are to water.38800:15:16.620 --> 00:15:17.960That is so good.38900:15:18.380 --> 00:15:20.120I'm going to remember that and use it.39000:15:20.280 --> 00:15:21.980I'll forget to attribute it to you.39100:15:22.600 --> 00:15:24.540The only time you need to attribute it39200:15:24.540 --> 00:15:26.280to me is when you tell your husband39300:15:26.280 --> 00:15:27.060about it, right?39400:15:27.140 --> 00:15:28.220Then you say YJurie said.39500:15:28.720 --> 00:15:31.280The next time you say, you say someone39600:15:31.280 --> 00:15:31.680said.39700:15:32.020 --> 00:15:33.640And the third time you use it, you39800:15:33.640 --> 00:15:35.520just say, like I always say, because you've39900:15:35.520 --> 00:15:36.900said it three times by that point.40000:15:37.240 --> 00:15:38.040So, you know, go for it.40100:15:38.080 --> 00:15:39.500And then by the fourth time, I'm writing40200:15:39.500 --> 00:15:40.320a book around it.40300:15:40.720 --> 00:15:42.700Listen, it'll be a bestseller.40400:15:42.860 --> 00:15:43.360I'll buy it.40500:15:43.660 --> 00:15:44.480I love it.40600:15:45.080 --> 00:15:47.800Okay, so one of the things you talk40700:15:47.800 --> 00:15:50.240a lot about is trust and how it40800:15:50.240 --> 00:15:52.920is collapsing, how it has collapsed in a40900:15:52.920 --> 00:15:54.660lot of institutions and relationships.41000:15:56.340 --> 00:15:58.520What do you think trust is going to41100:15:58.520 --> 00:16:00.540look like in the next generation?41200:16:01.420 --> 00:16:03.620How do we as the church, how do41300:16:03.620 --> 00:16:04.740we respond to that?41400:16:06.580 --> 00:16:08.680It's a great question.41500:16:09.380 --> 00:16:11.800And forgive me for creating a little bit41600:16:11.800 --> 00:16:13.980of context, but I think the understanding of41700:16:13.980 --> 00:16:17.200trust is connected to these other things, right?41800:16:17.300 --> 00:16:19.680So if you look at the framework, the41900:16:19.680 --> 00:16:22.360world is changing in three essential ways, right?42000:16:23.240 --> 00:16:27.000It's changing experientially, it's changing structurally, and then42100:16:27.000 --> 00:16:28.560it's changing relationally, right?42200:16:28.600 --> 00:16:31.320So the way we live, the way the42300:16:31.320 --> 00:16:33.580world works, and then the way we connect42400:16:33.580 --> 00:16:34.220is changing.42500:16:34.580 --> 00:16:37.420Now, these things aren't changing in isolation.42600:16:38.360 --> 00:16:40.080The momentum is being built.42700:16:40.280 --> 00:16:42.960It's like imagine gear is fitting together, right?42800:16:42.960 --> 00:16:45.940So trust and the dynamics of trust is42900:16:45.940 --> 00:16:47.700one of these gears under the way the43000:16:47.700 --> 00:16:48.340world works.43100:16:49.780 --> 00:16:52.400And the reason why trust is changing so43200:16:52.400 --> 00:16:55.380much is because the definition of humanity is43300:16:55.380 --> 00:16:56.000changing, right?43400:16:56.020 --> 00:16:59.060What makes us human is different, which means43500:16:59.060 --> 00:17:03.440we're having this digital existence, which is impacting43600:17:03.440 --> 00:17:06.020what and why we trust, which is changing43700:17:06.020 --> 00:17:08.940the way organizations work, which changes the way43800:17:08.940 --> 00:17:10.400people relate to one another, right?43900:17:10.460 --> 00:17:11.920So these gears together.44000:17:11.920 --> 00:17:15.339So to answer your question about trust is44100:17:15.339 --> 00:17:18.319I think the world is looking for an44200:17:18.319 --> 00:17:22.660apologetic, which isn't based on historical apologetics.44300:17:23.060 --> 00:17:28.840It's actually based on relationship, authenticity, what is44400:17:28.840 --> 00:17:29.640truly real.44500:17:30.700 --> 00:17:35.400So if you think about information and how44600:17:35.400 --> 00:17:37.880information has made something true, right?44700:17:37.880 --> 00:17:40.580So the whole idea of fact-checking is44800:17:40.580 --> 00:17:42.940fast disappearing because it's become a curse word,44900:17:43.220 --> 00:17:43.500right?45000:17:44.400 --> 00:17:46.100Because you and I grew up in a45100:17:46.100 --> 00:17:48.500time where if something was to be proven45200:17:48.500 --> 00:17:50.460as true, it was true, right?45300:17:50.520 --> 00:17:53.560But remember, it wasn't a thousand years ago45400:17:53.560 --> 00:17:59.660that medical science proved that smoking didn't cause45500:17:59.660 --> 00:18:00.760cancer, right?45600:18:00.860 --> 00:18:03.440That was facts proved it, right?45700:18:03.480 --> 00:18:05.760But then facts proved that, oh, no, it45800:18:05.760 --> 00:18:06.720does, right?45900:18:06.720 --> 00:18:10.620So we've become so good at manipulating the46000:18:10.620 --> 00:18:13.300information that the generation that's growing up isn't46100:18:13.300 --> 00:18:14.380looking for apologetics.46200:18:14.500 --> 00:18:15.580So let me give you an example in46300:18:15.580 --> 00:18:16.400the church world, right?46400:18:16.540 --> 00:18:18.320We would have grown up, most of us46500:18:18.320 --> 00:18:20.320going to seminary, you would have been trained46600:18:20.320 --> 00:18:22.280in apologetics because you've got to be able46700:18:22.280 --> 00:18:24.120to intellectually defend the faith.46800:18:24.480 --> 00:18:26.140I want to tell you the generation growing46900:18:26.140 --> 00:18:30.160up couldn't care less about the intellectual defense47000:18:30.160 --> 00:18:30.980of the faith.47100:18:31.340 --> 00:18:36.320The authenticity, the trust that they're looking for,47200:18:36.440 --> 00:18:39.860the apologetic that they're after is an incarnate47300:18:39.860 --> 00:18:40.320Christ.47400:18:40.960 --> 00:18:47.540It's a relational reality of the life lived47500:18:47.540 --> 00:18:49.440in relationship with Christ.47600:18:49.620 --> 00:18:52.880It's not truth as a concept, but it's47700:18:52.880 --> 00:18:55.620truth as the person of Jesus Christ.47800:18:55.920 --> 00:18:57.520And these things have an impact, right?47900:18:57.520 --> 00:19:02.040So the digitization means that you and I,48000:19:02.700 --> 00:19:04.420again, 20 years ago, if I showed you48100:19:04.420 --> 00:19:06.620a video of someone doing something, you'd say,48200:19:06.740 --> 00:19:08.120well, it's on video.48300:19:08.280 --> 00:19:08.720It's true.48400:19:09.120 --> 00:19:11.920Today, I can take this picture of you48500:19:11.920 --> 00:19:14.000on my screen right now, and I can48600:19:14.000 --> 00:19:16.620get you to say anything and do anything48700:19:16.620 --> 00:19:19.100in your voice with no more information than48800:19:19.100 --> 00:19:21.360what we're recording on this podcast right now,48900:19:21.620 --> 00:19:21.960right?49000:19:22.040 --> 00:19:25.100So what does that do to our trust,49100:19:25.280 --> 00:19:25.480right?49200:19:25.480 --> 00:19:27.300What we trust, how we trust, how we49300:19:27.300 --> 00:19:28.020perceive trust.49400:19:28.580 --> 00:19:29.980And in the book, I deal with a49500:19:29.980 --> 00:19:31.700little bit what are some of those things49600:19:31.700 --> 00:19:33.280that we need to do differently as the49700:19:33.280 --> 00:19:36.040church if we want to come across trustworthy49800:19:36.040 --> 00:19:39.000to the next generation, because coming up with49900:19:39.000 --> 00:19:41.260the best apologetic for what we believe is50000:19:41.260 --> 00:19:43.260true is not going to make people believe50100:19:43.260 --> 00:19:44.540in the authenticity of the Bible.50200:19:45.020 --> 00:19:46.760I believe in the authenticity of the Bible50300:19:46.760 --> 00:19:48.620with all my heart, but it's not whether50400:19:48.620 --> 00:19:50.400I believe it, it's whether I'm able to50500:19:50.400 --> 00:19:52.800convey it that makes a difference in the50600:19:52.800 --> 00:19:53.660world I live in or not.50700:19:54.420 --> 00:19:54.960Thank you.50800:19:54.960 --> 00:19:55.760Thank you for that, YJurie.50900:19:55.820 --> 00:19:57.660I feel like you just sort of captured51000:19:57.660 --> 00:20:00.180the heart of the book, you know, the51100:20:00.180 --> 00:20:02.880challenges that we're facing right now in this51200:20:02.880 --> 00:20:03.380generation.51300:20:03.600 --> 00:20:05.160Let's get into the opportunity.51400:20:05.380 --> 00:20:07.880Let's get into, like, how does the church51500:20:07.880 --> 00:20:10.180need to respond to face this?51600:20:10.700 --> 00:20:10.820Yeah.51700:20:11.060 --> 00:20:12.560Now, I don't want to spoil the book,51800:20:12.620 --> 00:20:12.860right?51900:20:12.940 --> 00:20:15.480But if you're looking for doom and gloom,52000:20:15.560 --> 00:20:16.780this is not that, right?52100:20:16.840 --> 00:20:20.020So the reality is that things are changing.52200:20:20.180 --> 00:20:21.480Things are changing rapidly.52300:20:21.480 --> 00:20:24.620But the answer isn't in the new.52400:20:24.760 --> 00:20:26.180The answer is in the ancient.52500:20:27.000 --> 00:20:29.120So as you go through the journey of52600:20:29.120 --> 00:20:32.420the book, I laughed at our church staff52700:20:32.420 --> 00:20:35.180team, because they were my guinea pigs.52800:20:35.280 --> 00:20:38.420As I was finishing chapters, we've got about52900:20:38.420 --> 00:20:40.52045 people on staff here at the church.53000:20:40.700 --> 00:20:42.900So in our leadership investment times, I'd take53100:20:42.900 --> 00:20:44.700them through it and kind of get their53200:20:44.700 --> 00:20:45.020feedback.53300:20:45.400 --> 00:20:47.360And there's a lot of 20-somethings or53400:20:47.360 --> 00:20:47.620something.53500:20:47.620 --> 00:20:49.660End of last year, we did a review53600:20:49.660 --> 00:20:52.060with them on the year's leadership investment, asking53700:20:52.060 --> 00:20:52.680what was good.53800:20:53.120 --> 00:20:54.760And one of them said their favorite thing53900:20:54.760 --> 00:20:57.260about the year was YJurie's scary leadership talks.54000:20:57.720 --> 00:21:00.540Because, you know, when you hear about the54100:21:00.540 --> 00:21:03.540definition of humanity changing and the impact AI54200:21:03.540 --> 00:21:05.320is having in the way we work and,54300:21:05.700 --> 00:21:07.780you know, what it's doing, these things are54400:21:07.780 --> 00:21:08.160scary.54500:21:08.800 --> 00:21:10.000But you know what's amazing?54600:21:10.640 --> 00:21:14.020The answer is the church.54700:21:14.460 --> 00:21:20.640The floJurieshing, authentic, translated local church is the54800:21:20.640 --> 00:21:21.760hope of the nations.54900:21:21.920 --> 00:21:23.120It's the hope of the future.55000:21:23.420 --> 00:21:25.840As people are being exposed to more technology,55100:21:26.320 --> 00:21:29.200they're leaning in and digging into more authentic,55200:21:29.420 --> 00:21:30.980deep relationships with real people.55300:21:31.280 --> 00:21:34.160So if the church can figure out how55400:21:34.160 --> 00:21:37.760to take the row mentality of an information55500:21:37.760 --> 00:21:40.240-scarce era, which is over, right?55600:21:40.460 --> 00:21:42.580Information is abundant, cheap, and free.55700:21:43.080 --> 00:21:46.600In fact, application is abundant, cheap, and free.55800:21:46.700 --> 00:21:49.780Because my chat GPT can better apply information55900:21:49.780 --> 00:21:52.180right now to my context than what the56000:21:52.180 --> 00:21:53.960world's best consultant can, right?56100:21:54.040 --> 00:21:55.220It's just the way it is.56200:21:55.680 --> 00:21:56.420So application.56300:21:56.600 --> 00:21:59.540But what isn't abundant and free is experience.56400:22:00.040 --> 00:22:02.160So if we could shift our understanding, if56500:22:02.160 --> 00:22:05.140we could shift our application to experience, I56600:22:05.140 --> 00:22:06.860want to tell you there's nothing more attractive56700:22:06.860 --> 00:22:07.720than the local church.56800:22:07.720 --> 00:22:11.760If you look at the early church, they56900:22:11.760 --> 00:22:13.020weren't presenting information.57000:22:13.180 --> 00:22:15.960They weren't sharing the gospel based on information,57100:22:16.140 --> 00:22:18.600nor was it on application in your context.57200:22:18.940 --> 00:22:21.220They were presenting it based on experience.57300:22:21.400 --> 00:22:23.600Come and be the people of the way.57400:22:23.740 --> 00:22:25.080Come and live the Christ life.57500:22:25.180 --> 00:22:28.200Let Christ be incarnate through you in your57600:22:28.200 --> 00:22:28.580world.57700:22:28.820 --> 00:22:31.060And it was so attractive, it changed the57800:22:31.060 --> 00:22:31.300world.57900:22:31.300 --> 00:22:34.980It's the same things, but it's figJurieng out58000:22:34.980 --> 00:22:38.080how to translate the gospel to the age58100:22:38.080 --> 00:22:40.640we live in, rather than dilute the gospel58200:22:40.640 --> 00:22:43.140to the lowest denominator, which is the temptation58300:22:43.700 --> 00:22:46.500is us making it less and less and58400:22:46.500 --> 00:22:48.680less and less to try and reach the58500:22:48.680 --> 00:22:48.900world.58600:22:48.960 --> 00:22:50.780When in actual fact, we should go back58700:22:50.780 --> 00:22:52.740to the things that really matter in Scripture58800:22:52.740 --> 00:22:54.300and just make it more and more.58900:22:54.420 --> 00:22:55.380So what's my hope?59000:22:55.580 --> 00:22:58.500My hope is that we do what we59100:22:58.500 --> 00:22:59.820should have been doing all along.59200:23:00.740 --> 00:23:02.220But just rediscovering something.59300:23:02.620 --> 00:23:03.880So is that what you mean when you59400:23:03.880 --> 00:23:05.520say go back to the ancient thing?59500:23:05.940 --> 00:23:09.120Yeah, it's 2000 years old.59600:23:09.480 --> 00:23:11.400Now, that doesn't mean that we need to59700:23:11.400 --> 00:23:13.200do it in exactly the same way, right?59800:23:13.300 --> 00:23:17.900So there's a portion that deals with innovation59900:23:17.900 --> 00:23:19.200towards the end of the book, right?60000:23:19.220 --> 00:23:19.860How do we innovate?60100:23:19.960 --> 00:23:21.000How do we work through innovation?60200:23:21.180 --> 00:23:24.100And we've got to understand that innovation always60300:23:24.100 --> 00:23:24.840has an end.60400:23:25.140 --> 00:23:26.700There's always got to be an end before60500:23:26.700 --> 00:23:27.340there's a beginning.60600:23:27.340 --> 00:23:29.500And sometimes we've just got to make peace60700:23:29.500 --> 00:23:31.060with the fact that certain things has to60800:23:31.060 --> 00:23:33.200come to an end in order for things60900:23:33.200 --> 00:23:35.000to begin anew, right?61000:23:35.080 --> 00:23:36.520So there are things that you need to61100:23:36.520 --> 00:23:37.160stop doing.61200:23:37.300 --> 00:23:39.020If you're going to reach the next generation,61300:23:39.200 --> 00:23:41.140just because it brought you here doesn't mean61400:23:41.140 --> 00:23:42.120it'll get you there.61500:23:42.640 --> 00:23:45.800Success is far more dangerous than failure, because61600:23:45.800 --> 00:23:48.280success causes us to repeat and failure causes61700:23:48.280 --> 00:23:50.000us to ask what's necessary, right?61800:23:50.100 --> 00:23:52.500So failure is safer than success.61900:23:52.660 --> 00:23:53.600Success is dangerous.62000:23:53.600 --> 00:23:57.040And oftentimes, that's why organizations die, not because62100:23:57.040 --> 00:23:59.580of their failure, but because of their success62200:23:59.580 --> 00:24:01.860that makes them irrelevant for the future.62300:24:03.540 --> 00:24:06.400So it's that dynamic of deciding what do62400:24:06.400 --> 00:24:07.860we need to let go of and what62500:24:07.860 --> 00:24:08.820never changes, right?62600:24:08.840 --> 00:24:11.760There's some things that never changes and should62700:24:11.760 --> 00:24:12.900never change.62800:24:13.200 --> 00:24:15.540And when you try and change the unchangeable,62900:24:15.940 --> 00:24:17.360you actually do more harm than good.63000:24:17.460 --> 00:24:19.260I'll give you a very practical example, right?63100:24:19.260 --> 00:24:22.720So church in Europe, they're going through this63200:24:22.720 --> 00:24:27.080process of trying to be more palatable, be63300:24:27.080 --> 00:24:28.160more relevant, right?63400:24:28.220 --> 00:24:31.380So the main churches in Europe, they all63500:24:31.380 --> 00:24:33.680start youth groups in the late 60s and63600:24:33.680 --> 00:24:34.98070s and 80s, right?63700:24:35.040 --> 00:24:36.840So church is starting to decline.63800:24:37.180 --> 00:24:39.660The European church is bringing in pizza and63900:24:39.660 --> 00:24:44.240ping pong into every little community hall, because64000:24:44.240 --> 00:24:45.720that's what teenagers want.64100:24:45.720 --> 00:24:48.660And so they take away the price of64200:24:48.660 --> 00:24:49.140Christianity.64300:24:49.880 --> 00:24:52.440And in the process, they lose the prize64400:24:52.440 --> 00:24:53.360of Christianity.64500:24:55.660 --> 00:24:58.380And, you know, recently, Lego did a study64600:24:58.380 --> 00:25:00.300and they were trying to figure out, I64700:25:00.300 --> 00:25:02.820don't know if you noticed that Lego, you64800:25:02.820 --> 00:25:05.160know, kind of faded away and then it64900:25:05.160 --> 00:25:07.260had this renaissance and now Lego is the65000:25:07.260 --> 00:25:09.460thing, you know, adults are building Lego and65100:25:09.460 --> 00:25:10.380all the rest, right?65200:25:10.780 --> 00:25:12.620You see, I thought, I didn't realize that.65300:25:12.620 --> 00:25:14.180I thought it was just my life because65400:25:14.180 --> 00:25:15.520I have an eight-year-old son.65500:25:15.680 --> 00:25:18.080So I certainly had a Lego renaissance just65600:25:18.080 --> 00:25:18.740in my home.65700:25:19.620 --> 00:25:21.120It's not just in your home, it's everywhere.65800:25:21.940 --> 00:25:23.900But here's what I want you to see65900:25:23.900 --> 00:25:26.780is what happened was Lego became irrelevant because66000:25:26.780 --> 00:25:28.580everybody wanted digital, right?66100:25:28.780 --> 00:25:31.120In the late 90s, early 2000s.66200:25:31.240 --> 00:25:33.560So Lego did a study and what they66300:25:33.560 --> 00:25:35.080thought they needed to do is dumb down66400:25:35.080 --> 00:25:35.320Lego.66500:25:35.880 --> 00:25:37.720So there was a time where Lego was66600:25:37.720 --> 00:25:40.680like little masks and little men and they66700:25:40.680 --> 00:25:43.020tried to just make it more like mainstream66800:25:43.020 --> 00:25:46.740media, just something nice and less pieces, doesn't66900:25:46.740 --> 00:25:47.620take that long to build.67000:25:48.000 --> 00:25:50.120So they do this study where they go67100:25:50.120 --> 00:25:52.380around to teenagers' homes and they just ask67200:25:52.380 --> 00:25:54.060them this one question, what's the most valuable67300:25:54.060 --> 00:25:54.840thing in your room?67400:25:55.680 --> 00:25:57.920And the teenagers show them different things.67500:25:58.060 --> 00:25:59.720And they thought teenagers were going to show67600:25:59.720 --> 00:26:02.160them their PlayStations and their Xboxes.67700:26:02.520 --> 00:26:05.180And this one teenager, there's many stories like67800:26:05.180 --> 00:26:07.180this, but one of the favorite stories from67900:26:07.180 --> 00:26:10.000this study is the teenager shows them this68000:26:10.000 --> 00:26:12.800old pair of tennis shoes that's worn.68100:26:13.120 --> 00:26:14.760And, you know, and he says, this is68200:26:14.760 --> 00:26:16.620the favorite thing, my favorite thing in my68300:26:16.620 --> 00:26:16.840room.68400:26:16.840 --> 00:26:18.120And they say, wow, why is this?68500:26:18.160 --> 00:26:19.480You've got all these nice things.68600:26:19.540 --> 00:26:20.560Why is this your favorite thing?68700:26:20.820 --> 00:26:23.860He says, because every scuff mark, every bit68800:26:23.860 --> 00:26:26.480of wear on these shoes represent me learning68900:26:26.480 --> 00:26:27.700to ride the skateboard.69000:26:28.260 --> 00:26:30.940And it's the hardest thing I've ever done.69100:26:30.940 --> 00:26:34.660So that story and the journey that Lego69200:26:34.660 --> 00:26:37.440went through is they realized that teenagers weren't69300:26:37.440 --> 00:26:38.720looking for something easier.69400:26:38.860 --> 00:26:40.180They were looking for something harder.69500:26:40.900 --> 00:26:42.460And so Lego switched gears.69600:26:42.600 --> 00:26:44.840And rather than making their products easier, they69700:26:44.840 --> 00:26:46.260make it harder and harder and harder.69800:26:46.340 --> 00:26:49.520Now you get 15,000 piece Lego sets,69900:26:49.620 --> 00:26:49.900right?70000:26:50.180 --> 00:26:50.660Why?70100:26:50.780 --> 00:26:55.120Because people were looking for something worth them70200:26:55.120 --> 00:26:58.500in this time rather than looking for something70300:26:58.500 --> 00:26:58.900easy.70400:26:58.900 --> 00:27:01.220The problem with the church in Europe is70500:27:01.220 --> 00:27:03.160young people were leaving the church and joining70600:27:03.160 --> 00:27:05.700the jihad in the Middle East.70700:27:06.160 --> 00:27:06.280Why?70800:27:06.540 --> 00:27:08.320Because while they were looking for something worth70900:27:08.320 --> 00:27:10.300giving their lives to, the church was offering71000:27:10.300 --> 00:27:11.380them pizza and ping pong.71100:27:13.240 --> 00:27:15.880So if we want to, if we, and71200:27:15.880 --> 00:27:18.280again, this to my example of ancient and71300:27:18.280 --> 00:27:21.060modern is that hasn't changed, right?71400:27:21.160 --> 00:27:24.480So if we dilute the gospel from what71500:27:24.480 --> 00:27:26.220it was to something that we think is71600:27:26.220 --> 00:27:28.120more palatable, we'll lose the plot.71700:27:28.120 --> 00:27:31.500But if we translate the gospel and we71800:27:31.500 --> 00:27:33.420take the fact that Jesus is saying, if71900:27:33.420 --> 00:27:34.660you want to find your life, you've got72000:27:34.660 --> 00:27:35.480to lose your life.72100:27:36.100 --> 00:27:38.460And we take those hard truths and we72200:27:38.460 --> 00:27:39.740translate it to the world.72300:27:39.880 --> 00:27:41.380I want to tell you, there's nothing more72400:27:41.380 --> 00:27:44.620appealing to this next generation than the truth72500:27:44.620 --> 00:27:47.200of the gospel preached in an authentic and72600:27:47.200 --> 00:27:48.680real way.72700:27:49.460 --> 00:27:51.780And that's kind of the point is, yes,72800:27:51.820 --> 00:27:52.580the world's changing.72900:27:53.360 --> 00:27:55.140Yes, we need to adapt to those changes.73000:27:55.140 --> 00:27:59.220But we're serving an unchanging God with truths73100:27:59.220 --> 00:28:02.720that will be true beyond the invention and73200:28:02.720 --> 00:28:05.220the downfall of AI, beyond what we can73300:28:05.220 --> 00:28:06.440see on the horizon.73400:28:07.380 --> 00:28:08.840Oh, that's so good.73500:28:08.980 --> 00:28:11.780Your comment about translating the gospel, I think73600:28:11.780 --> 00:28:16.800is really the key to striking that balance,73700:28:17.260 --> 00:28:19.900right, between the modern and the ancient, because73800:28:19.900 --> 00:28:21.600we can't go back to the ancient times.73900:28:21.660 --> 00:28:23.220The answer is found in the ancient, but74000:28:23.220 --> 00:28:24.820here we are in the modern times, right?74100:28:25.140 --> 00:28:27.380And I mean, you being part of this74200:28:27.380 --> 00:28:30.700incredible faithly project, you know, is what you74300:28:30.700 --> 00:28:33.500guys are doing, is you're translating, you're removing74400:28:33.500 --> 00:28:36.220the duplication, you're translating the gospel, you're presenting74500:28:36.220 --> 00:28:39.220the gospel on platforms and in different ways74600:28:39.220 --> 00:28:42.340that is relevant to where people are at,74700:28:42.400 --> 00:28:42.580right?74800:28:42.600 --> 00:28:44.280You're going to the marketplace of the day.74900:28:44.420 --> 00:28:46.680Jesus didn't just teach in the temple, He75000:28:46.680 --> 00:28:47.520taught in the marketplace.75100:28:47.940 --> 00:28:50.840There's more miracles that Jesus did outside of75200:28:50.840 --> 00:28:53.560the religious context than within the religious context.75300:28:53.560 --> 00:28:57.300And you're doing those miracles, you're presenting it75400:28:57.300 --> 00:28:57.900in that way.75500:28:58.140 --> 00:29:02.940I think the threat, technology is like money,75600:29:03.160 --> 00:29:03.400right?75700:29:04.680 --> 00:29:06.340Money is not the root of all evil,75800:29:06.720 --> 00:29:08.660though it's been quoted that way many times.75900:29:08.760 --> 00:29:10.820It's the love of money that is the76000:29:10.820 --> 00:29:11.760root of all evil, right?76100:29:11.840 --> 00:29:14.080So money is a great, it's a great76200:29:14.080 --> 00:29:15.680servant, but a terrible master.76300:29:16.440 --> 00:29:18.220And the same with technology, right?76400:29:18.240 --> 00:29:20.020It's a great servant, but it's a terrible76500:29:20.020 --> 00:29:20.520master.76600:29:20.520 --> 00:29:23.280And if we're taking it as a tool76700:29:23.280 --> 00:29:26.980and we're infusing it with authentic, real relationship,76800:29:27.500 --> 00:29:29.620man, what an opportunity, what a time we76900:29:29.620 --> 00:29:32.560live in where we can utilize technology to77000:29:32.560 --> 00:29:33.500spread the gospel.77100:29:34.220 --> 00:29:37.300But if we take what is the technology77200:29:37.300 --> 00:29:38.840of the day and we let it rule77300:29:38.840 --> 00:29:41.880us, then there's dark days ahead for the77400:29:41.880 --> 00:29:42.180church.77500:29:42.360 --> 00:29:44.480So it's that, it's how do we stay77600:29:44.480 --> 00:29:47.140authentic to who we are and authentic to77700:29:47.140 --> 00:29:51.520our message while using every single possible tool77800:29:51.520 --> 00:29:54.400that is out there for us to do77900:29:54.400 --> 00:29:57.100and being in the spaces where people are.78000:29:57.580 --> 00:30:00.460I'm convinced that if Jesus was around today,78100:30:00.760 --> 00:30:03.140He'd be preaching on TikTok and Instagram and78200:30:03.800 --> 00:30:08.500He'd be publishing reels because that's why He78300:30:08.500 --> 00:30:10.160was on the mount, right?78400:30:10.240 --> 00:30:12.320For the Sermon on the Mount, because people78500:30:12.320 --> 00:30:13.920could hear Him in that context.78600:30:13.920 --> 00:30:16.180That's why He preached from a boat, because78700:30:16.180 --> 00:30:18.940that was the best amplifier that you could78800:30:18.940 --> 00:30:21.640find to preach the message in that day.78900:30:21.840 --> 00:30:24.160Jesus embraced the technology at the time.79000:30:24.740 --> 00:30:27.240We have the Bible, we have the gospels79100:30:27.240 --> 00:30:30.040because God timed the coming of Jesus with79200:30:30.040 --> 00:30:33.340the Roman road and the invention of the79300:30:33.340 --> 00:30:34.340mailing system.79400:30:34.660 --> 00:30:36.800If He didn't time it like that, we79500:30:36.800 --> 00:30:38.080wouldn't have what we have today.79600:30:38.480 --> 00:30:40.520But God knew that that was the timing79700:30:40.520 --> 00:30:42.760and that was the technology to get us79800:30:42.760 --> 00:30:44.020to where we are today.79900:30:44.320 --> 00:30:45.740We need to do the same thing with80000:30:45.740 --> 00:30:46.920the technologies of our day.80100:30:47.420 --> 00:30:48.620Yeah, that's so good.80200:30:48.700 --> 00:30:50.520And it's a perfect segue into my next80300:30:50.520 --> 00:30:53.840question, which is, where are people today?80400:30:54.100 --> 00:30:56.340One of the major themes that goes through80500:30:56.340 --> 00:30:58.100your book is this idea of the shifting80600:30:58.100 --> 00:31:02.280degrees of separation, that there is this fragmentation.80700:31:02.800 --> 00:31:06.600So, how does the church approach that?80800:31:06.940 --> 00:31:08.420It's the paradox, right?80900:31:08.580 --> 00:31:10.480People are more connected than ever, but people81000:31:10.480 --> 00:31:11.900are more lonely than ever, right?81100:31:12.100 --> 00:31:12.420Yes.81200:31:12.420 --> 00:31:18.000And that paradox creates an opportunity for us81300:31:18.000 --> 00:31:18.960on both sides.81400:31:19.300 --> 00:31:21.420So, people are more connected than ever means81500:31:21.420 --> 00:31:23.940you can reach more people in a simpler81600:31:23.940 --> 00:31:25.500way than ever before, right?81700:31:25.540 --> 00:31:26.880You can reach people, but you're going to81800:31:26.880 --> 00:31:28.400reach them in a very shallow way.81900:31:29.040 --> 00:31:30.920That's the one opportunity.82000:31:31.180 --> 00:31:33.740So, you know, be on social media, but82100:31:33.740 --> 00:31:35.140be there in an authentic way.82200:31:35.260 --> 00:31:39.140Don't market on social media, add value on82300:31:39.140 --> 00:31:40.020social media, right?82400:31:40.020 --> 00:31:42.380My hope is that people listening to this82500:31:42.380 --> 00:31:43.860is not going to feel like somebody, I'm82600:31:43.860 --> 00:31:45.340not marketing the book, right?82700:31:45.400 --> 00:31:47.300Either this book will add value to you82800:31:47.300 --> 00:31:48.520or it won't, right?82900:31:48.580 --> 00:31:50.800So, it'll market itself if it adds value,83000:31:51.300 --> 00:31:54.400is you don't market on social media, you83100:31:54.400 --> 00:31:54.940add value.83200:31:55.000 --> 00:31:57.960So, don't advertise your youth night coming up83300:31:57.960 --> 00:31:58.600on social media.83400:31:58.660 --> 00:31:59.580It's not going to help you any.83500:31:59.900 --> 00:32:01.460You're just going to drown in everything else.83600:32:01.500 --> 00:32:02.960And in fact, people are going to see83700:32:02.960 --> 00:32:06.160the ad and go, you know, they're advertising83800:32:06.160 --> 00:32:06.440it.83900:32:07.080 --> 00:32:09.040But let one of your youth tell an84000:32:09.040 --> 00:32:11.480authentic story of how Jesus has changed their84100:32:11.480 --> 00:32:12.700lives on social media.84200:32:12.920 --> 00:32:14.220That's value add.84300:32:14.340 --> 00:32:15.160That's contributing.84400:32:15.720 --> 00:32:16.480That's different.84500:32:16.880 --> 00:32:19.540People can find you if they look for84600:32:19.540 --> 00:32:19.740you.84700:32:19.900 --> 00:32:21.820It's called a search engine, right?84800:32:21.880 --> 00:32:23.720So, make sure, firstly, that that's true.84900:32:24.260 --> 00:32:25.920But you don't have to market.85000:32:26.060 --> 00:32:26.960They can find you.85100:32:27.340 --> 00:32:30.120Don't put up billboards saying, church, join us.85200:32:30.920 --> 00:32:34.780Tell stories of Jesus changing lives through the85300:32:34.780 --> 00:32:36.880people that's a part of the church.85400:32:36.920 --> 00:32:38.580And I would tell you, people will flock85500:32:38.580 --> 00:32:39.380to those stories.85600:32:39.700 --> 00:32:43.300So, firstly, the more connected people, yes, make85700:32:43.300 --> 00:32:44.760sure you add value in that space.85800:32:45.240 --> 00:32:48.540Secondly, the more lonely people than ever, is85900:32:48.540 --> 00:32:50.480you've got to create circles and not just86000:32:50.480 --> 00:32:50.800rows.86100:32:51.860 --> 00:32:53.820If you think of most churches, you think86200:32:53.820 --> 00:32:55.560of pews being set in rows.86300:32:56.540 --> 00:32:58.900People aren't coming to church because they're hungry86400:32:58.900 --> 00:32:59.680for information.86500:32:59.680 --> 00:33:02.040I don't care how well you preach.86600:33:02.840 --> 00:33:04.680They can find a better preacher online.86700:33:05.380 --> 00:33:07.480And I'm not going to name any names86800:33:07.480 --> 00:33:07.660yet.86900:33:07.700 --> 00:33:09.700But they're going to find somebody that's more87000:33:09.700 --> 00:33:12.800relevant, that's cooler, that has better examples than87100:33:12.800 --> 00:33:13.040you.87200:33:13.120 --> 00:33:15.500If not somebody, somebody's, right?87300:33:15.580 --> 00:33:18.140Because people could just go from listening to87400:33:18.140 --> 00:33:20.900somebody's best message to somebody's best message to87500:33:20.900 --> 00:33:21.920somebody's best message.87600:33:22.220 --> 00:33:24.780Why do they come back to church is87700:33:24.780 --> 00:33:27.700because here they can have authentic relationships with87800:33:27.700 --> 00:33:28.280real people.87900:33:28.280 --> 00:33:30.100And please don't hear me wrong.88000:33:30.160 --> 00:33:31.760I'm not saying, therefore, church should be small.88100:33:32.240 --> 00:33:34.860Church can be thousands of people if you88200:33:34.860 --> 00:33:38.020can facilitate thousands of people into thousands of88300:33:38.020 --> 00:33:39.980authentic, meaningful relationships.88400:33:40.780 --> 00:33:43.640And that's the key thing, is utilize the88500:33:43.640 --> 00:33:47.980loneliness and utilize the hyper-connectedness in these88600:33:47.980 --> 00:33:48.620different ways.88700:33:48.780 --> 00:33:50.200I don't know if that answers your question.88800:33:50.460 --> 00:33:51.800It absolutely does.88900:33:51.860 --> 00:33:52.540I love it.89000:33:53.440 --> 00:33:55.380Create circles, not rows.89100:33:55.960 --> 00:33:56.980Create circles, not rows.89200:33:57.670 --> 00:34:01.560And I loved your advice about how to89300:34:01.560 --> 00:34:03.440use social media if you have a youth89400:34:03.440 --> 00:34:04.100night coming up.89500:34:04.160 --> 00:34:06.680It is so incredibly practical, which is one89600:34:06.680 --> 00:34:09.000of my favorite things about your book, which89700:34:09.000 --> 00:34:12.780is there was something practical connected to each89800:34:12.780 --> 00:34:13.560of the shifts.89900:34:14.000 --> 00:34:15.520Now, when you look at, I think there90000:34:15.520 --> 00:34:17.480were six, when you look at the six,90100:34:18.420 --> 00:34:20.860which practical skill do you think is the90200:34:20.860 --> 00:34:23.139most urgently needed right now?90300:34:25.120 --> 00:34:28.260I don't think it's a skill for anyone90400:34:28.260 --> 00:34:31.560in particular, but it's this, there's two, I'm90500:34:31.560 --> 00:34:34.840going to, I'm going to break your question.90600:34:35.000 --> 00:34:35.440I apologize.90700:34:35.760 --> 00:34:37.900I would not pass this exam, but I'm90800:34:37.900 --> 00:34:39.420going to give two skills because I think90900:34:39.420 --> 00:34:40.260we need both.91000:34:40.360 --> 00:34:40.860You know what?91100:34:40.900 --> 00:34:42.320I asked three questions in one question.91200:34:42.460 --> 00:34:43.639You can, you can give me two answers.91300:34:44.060 --> 00:34:44.760It's all good.91400:34:44.940 --> 00:34:45.300There we go.91500:34:45.400 --> 00:34:46.239We're going to have fun, right?91600:34:46.460 --> 00:34:48.960So, so the two skills is, the one91700:34:48.960 --> 00:34:51.940is the skill of understanding, is the problem91800:34:51.940 --> 00:34:56.120is we are we are more threatened by91900:34:56.120 --> 00:34:58.480the change in the world than what we're92000:34:58.480 --> 00:35:00.160doing the work to understand it.92100:35:01.120 --> 00:35:03.420And, and oftentimes the problem is with a92200:35:03.420 --> 00:35:06.380threat or a fear is it's this nebulous92300:35:06.380 --> 00:35:08.000thing that you can't get your arms around,92400:35:08.140 --> 00:35:09.140that you can't understand.92500:35:09.380 --> 00:35:12.160And there's this cliche saying of face your92600:35:12.160 --> 00:35:12.520fears.92700:35:12.880 --> 00:35:14.800And I think we need to face our92800:35:14.800 --> 00:35:16.500fears with regards to the way the world92900:35:16.500 --> 00:35:19.120is changing, because too many people are in93000:35:19.120 --> 00:35:20.780the space of just, oh, the world's changing93100:35:20.780 --> 00:35:21.320too quickly.93200:35:21.320 --> 00:35:22.760It's changing too much.93300:35:23.160 --> 00:35:24.780I'm just going to, I remember I was93400:35:24.780 --> 00:35:26.500having this conversation with somebody and they were93500:35:26.500 --> 00:35:28.740like, I am so glad I'm retiring next93600:35:28.740 --> 00:35:28.960year.93700:35:29.500 --> 00:35:30.880You know, that's all they could think of.93800:35:31.040 --> 00:35:32.660And I thought that's, I think a lot93900:35:32.660 --> 00:35:33.960of people are in that space where they're94000:35:33.960 --> 00:35:35.640just going, man, I just, I'm just glad94100:35:35.640 --> 00:35:37.540I get to see this out and I'll94200:35:37.540 --> 00:35:37.940be okay.94300:35:37.940 --> 00:35:39.640But I don't know what the next generation94400:35:39.640 --> 00:35:40.120is going to do.94500:35:40.300 --> 00:35:41.140We've got to face it.94600:35:41.200 --> 00:35:42.660We've got to understand what's happening.94700:35:42.940 --> 00:35:44.960We've got to face it because most of94800:35:44.960 --> 00:35:46.940the time when you face a fear, that94900:35:46.940 --> 00:35:48.380fear becomes much smaller.95000:35:48.640 --> 00:35:50.620And when you face it, you can deal95100:35:50.620 --> 00:35:50.980with it.95200:35:51.320 --> 00:35:54.320Um, story for another day, but I was95300:35:54.320 --> 00:35:58.780once chased by an elephant and long story.95400:35:58.920 --> 00:35:59.180Okay.95500:35:59.600 --> 00:36:02.620And, and the game ranger faced up to95600:36:02.620 --> 00:36:04.260the elephant and screamed at it.95700:36:04.260 --> 00:36:08.880And this huge, you know, massive animal many95800:36:08.880 --> 00:36:11.560times bigger than the game ranger stopped in95900:36:11.560 --> 00:36:14.260its tracks because this game ranger faced his96000:36:14.260 --> 00:36:14.480fear.96100:36:14.560 --> 00:36:17.840And sometimes we just need to face our96200:36:17.840 --> 00:36:18.160fears.96300:36:18.160 --> 00:36:20.900We just need to be willing to say96400:36:20.900 --> 00:36:22.600what, how is the world changing?96500:36:22.820 --> 00:36:23.960And I understand it.96600:36:24.020 --> 00:36:26.560I can't control it, but I can understand96700:36:26.560 --> 00:36:28.280it, which means I can respond to it.96800:36:28.560 --> 00:36:30.780And the second overarching skill would be that96900:36:30.780 --> 00:36:31.360of innovation.97000:36:31.880 --> 00:36:33.580We've got to learn to innovate.97100:36:33.780 --> 00:36:38.500Alicia, we're the, we're the most creative entity97200:36:38.500 --> 00:36:39.400on planet earth.97300:36:40.520 --> 00:36:43.600We have direct access to the creator of97400:36:43.600 --> 00:36:48.020the universe, but yet the church doesn't display97500:36:48.020 --> 00:36:50.960that creativity because we're too rooted in our97600:36:50.960 --> 00:36:53.720traditions and not rooted enough in our creator.97700:36:54.400 --> 00:36:56.540I love the story of stained glass windows,97800:36:56.700 --> 00:36:56.820right?97900:36:56.940 --> 00:37:00.400Stained glass windows are most people associated with98000:37:00.400 --> 00:37:02.420the old churches of stained glass windows.98100:37:02.520 --> 00:37:04.900Well, when stained glass windows came about, it98200:37:04.900 --> 00:37:08.440was created for an illiterate society to not98300:37:08.440 --> 00:37:11.200just see the pictures painted on the walls,98400:37:11.520 --> 00:37:13.580but somebody figured out that if you painted98500:37:13.580 --> 00:37:17.180on glass, light would shine through it and98600:37:17.180 --> 00:37:19.220you'd see the picture in a way that98700:37:19.220 --> 00:37:20.780you've never seen the picture before.98800:37:21.100 --> 00:37:23.000This was a technology developed by the church,98900:37:23.060 --> 00:37:25.420which would be later adopted by every castle99000:37:25.420 --> 00:37:28.820and every nobleman's manor all around the world.99100:37:29.160 --> 00:37:31.820But it was creativity that stemmed from the99200:37:31.820 --> 00:37:32.100church.99300:37:32.420 --> 00:37:36.740What you're doing with Faithly is displaying, explaining,99400:37:37.100 --> 00:37:41.080doing creativity around how the church interacts, how99500:37:41.080 --> 00:37:43.680people of the faith connect with one another99600:37:43.680 --> 00:37:45.240in a creative way.99700:37:45.660 --> 00:37:47.880May we not just follow trends, but may99800:37:47.880 --> 00:37:50.880we actually set trends and bring that creativity,99900:37:51.200 --> 00:37:55.180bring that innovation forward as we hold on100000:37:55.180 --> 00:37:57.180to the ancient things that shouldn't be changed,100100:37:57.460 --> 00:37:59.360but we change the things that should be100200:37:59.360 --> 00:38:01.300changed and we keep on developing new ways100300:38:01.300 --> 00:38:02.820of communicating the message.100400:38:03.320 --> 00:38:04.060I love it.100500:38:04.160 --> 00:38:06.140That, to me, was the big call to100600:38:06.140 --> 00:38:08.320action in the book, which was to innovate.100700:38:08.320 --> 00:38:09.260It was to pioneer.100800:38:10.180 --> 00:38:11.680I'm going to ask the question that I100900:38:11.680 --> 00:38:14.720think is probably on listeners' minds right now,101000:38:14.840 --> 00:38:17.200which is, YJurie, that's easy for you to101100:38:17.200 --> 00:38:18.640say.101200:38:18.760 --> 00:38:20.800Here you are on this global stage with101300:38:20.800 --> 00:38:22.080this big platform.101400:38:22.760 --> 00:38:25.200I'm a local pastor with not a big101500:38:25.200 --> 00:38:27.100budget, not a big team.101600:38:27.700 --> 00:38:31.060What does innovation and pioneering mean for me?101700:38:32.000 --> 00:38:33.220That's a great question.101800:38:33.220 --> 00:38:38.100To be honest, I think I'm more qualified101900:38:38.100 --> 00:38:40.060to answer that because most of the innovation102000:38:40.060 --> 00:38:42.060in my life hasn't happened on big stages102100:38:42.060 --> 00:38:43.420or global context.102200:38:43.580 --> 00:38:44.700It's been in local churches.102300:38:44.920 --> 00:38:48.240It's been the lessons I learned starting with102400:38:48.240 --> 00:38:50.880zero—I mean, I went from having 85 people102500:38:50.880 --> 00:38:53.340on staff in my church to having zero102600:38:53.340 --> 00:38:54.340members in my church.102700:38:56.000 --> 00:38:59.320We planted a church in downtown Austin three102800:38:59.320 --> 00:39:01.240months before the pandemic started, by the way.102900:39:02.080 --> 00:39:04.980So, great timing for planting a church.103000:39:06.080 --> 00:39:09.280But the reality is that what I learned103100:39:09.280 --> 00:39:11.740from that process and what I think is103200:39:11.740 --> 00:39:15.880important to understand is that innovation isn't subject103300:39:15.880 --> 00:39:16.780to the scale.103400:39:17.320 --> 00:39:18.780So, a lot of people say, for you103500:39:18.780 --> 00:39:20.560to innovate, you've got to think outside the103600:39:20.560 --> 00:39:20.840box.103700:39:21.200 --> 00:39:22.820I actually think for you to innovate, you've103800:39:22.820 --> 00:39:23.940got to understand the box.103900:39:24.660 --> 00:39:28.440It's understanding the limitations that enables innovation.104000:39:28.440 --> 00:39:33.240It's the Benjamites in the Bible that could104100:39:33.240 --> 00:39:34.960shoot the arrow from the left and the104200:39:34.960 --> 00:39:35.480right hand.104300:39:35.680 --> 00:39:37.760Everybody reads that story and say, well, they104400:39:37.760 --> 00:39:38.800innovated.104500:39:39.020 --> 00:39:40.840They excelled at their craft.104600:39:41.040 --> 00:39:43.160We've got to do it.104700:39:43.400 --> 00:39:45.760But if you look at their story, how104800:39:45.760 --> 00:39:48.220they learned to do that, their backstory in104900:39:48.220 --> 00:39:50.800the book of Judges is that the Benjamites105000:39:50.800 --> 00:39:54.620were dwindled down to 600 people with no105100:39:54.620 --> 00:39:58.420wives, no children, no legacy, no future.105200:39:58.700 --> 00:40:01.860But they embraced the suck and they taught105300:40:01.860 --> 00:40:05.540themselves new skills inside of the limitation, inside105400:40:05.540 --> 00:40:06.640of the box.105500:40:07.040 --> 00:40:09.920And then years later, they're this incredibly skilled,105600:40:10.160 --> 00:40:11.980incredibly powerful tribe of Israel.105700:40:12.260 --> 00:40:14.680But it didn't start that way, right?105800:40:14.760 --> 00:40:16.960So, for the local pastor, for the guy105900:40:16.960 --> 00:40:19.200there is you've got to ask the question,106000:40:19.600 --> 00:40:21.740what's working, what isn't working and develop this106100:40:21.740 --> 00:40:22.560lab mentality.106200:40:22.960 --> 00:40:24.600What I mean with a lab mentality is106300:40:24.600 --> 00:40:25.940experiment, right?106400:40:25.940 --> 00:40:28.980So, if young people aren't coming to your106500:40:28.980 --> 00:40:32.540Sunday morning services, then try doing something on106600:40:32.540 --> 00:40:33.040a Sunday night.106700:40:33.160 --> 00:40:34.220Try doing something on a Friday.106800:40:34.400 --> 00:40:35.780Try decentralizing.106900:40:36.240 --> 00:40:39.100Use the limitations you have and do something107000:40:39.100 --> 00:40:40.700different and fail.107100:40:41.080 --> 00:40:43.380Fail quickly, right?107200:40:43.560 --> 00:40:45.800So, when you fail, fail and say, I107300:40:45.800 --> 00:40:46.160failed.107400:40:46.300 --> 00:40:46.960That didn't work.107500:40:47.060 --> 00:40:48.400We're going to try this, right?107600:40:48.460 --> 00:40:50.080In social media, there's something called A-B107700:40:50.080 --> 00:40:53.780testing where you put two concepts out, you107800:40:53.780 --> 00:40:54.700see which one floJurieshes.107900:40:54.700 --> 00:40:56.800You kill the one that didn't and you108000:40:56.800 --> 00:40:58.700market the one that did.108100:40:58.980 --> 00:41:00.160It's the same thing.108200:41:00.260 --> 00:41:01.420Do some A-B testing.108300:41:01.600 --> 00:41:02.540Try different things.108400:41:02.660 --> 00:41:03.420Keep trying things.108500:41:03.600 --> 00:41:04.700Don't be afraid.108600:41:05.820 --> 00:41:09.400Organizations die when their history and their legacy108700:41:09.400 --> 00:41:12.420and their past success is more important than108800:41:12.420 --> 00:41:13.220their future mission.108900:41:13.760 --> 00:41:16.360And so, if you place the mission above109000:41:16.360 --> 00:41:19.480your method, it doesn't matter the scale of109100:41:19.480 --> 00:41:20.000what you're doing.109200:41:20.200 --> 00:41:21.860It doesn't matter if you're just speaking about109300:41:21.860 --> 00:41:23.300the one person you're trying to reach.109400:41:23.300 --> 00:41:25.640Whether you're trying to reach your own teenager109500:41:25.640 --> 00:41:27.900or whether you're trying to reach the teenagers109600:41:27.900 --> 00:41:30.000of the world, taste.109700:41:30.220 --> 00:41:30.660Experiment.109800:41:30.860 --> 00:41:32.820If one way of building relationship doesn't work,109900:41:32.960 --> 00:41:34.740try another way of building relationship.110000:41:35.140 --> 00:41:36.120Have the conversation.110100:41:36.440 --> 00:41:37.800Ask the next generation.110200:41:38.380 --> 00:41:40.720Invite them into the conversation to shape their110300:41:40.720 --> 00:41:40.920thing.110400:41:41.020 --> 00:41:43.820You'd be surprised at the intelligence and the110500:41:43.820 --> 00:41:46.560wisdom and the understanding and the innovation and110600:41:46.560 --> 00:41:47.440the new ideas.110700:41:48.040 --> 00:41:50.800And what people design together, they own together.110800:41:50.800 --> 00:41:52.700So, if you want to do this innovation,110900:41:53.080 --> 00:41:54.960make sure that you involve people in the111000:41:54.960 --> 00:41:55.900process of doing it.111100:41:56.000 --> 00:41:58.340So, there's a whole bit about collaboration and111200:41:58.340 --> 00:42:00.380the shifting dimensions of organization.111300:42:00.560 --> 00:42:04.380But these principles are not designed to work111400:42:04.380 --> 00:42:05.780at scale only.111500:42:06.080 --> 00:42:08.500They're totally designed to work for the local111600:42:08.500 --> 00:42:08.900church.111700:42:09.200 --> 00:42:12.340And I'm a church guy.111800:42:12.980 --> 00:42:15.060I lead a lot of global organization.111900:42:15.460 --> 00:42:16.320I do a lot of that.112000:42:16.320 --> 00:42:19.320But I'm a local pastor that will later112100:42:19.320 --> 00:42:22.780this afternoon have a conversation with an individual112200:42:22.780 --> 00:42:25.740about their faith journey and what God wants112300:42:25.740 --> 00:42:26.620to do with them next.112400:42:27.640 --> 00:42:29.900We cannot be so globally minded that we're112500:42:29.900 --> 00:42:30.820of no local good.112600:42:31.360 --> 00:42:34.480Local faithfulness empowers our global ministry.112700:42:34.600 --> 00:42:35.480And that's the way it should be.112800:42:35.880 --> 00:42:38.300That is so good, YJurie.112900:42:38.840 --> 00:42:42.020I have found that more so than in113000:42:42.020 --> 00:42:44.240any pocket of sort of industry or people,113100:42:44.400 --> 00:42:48.500there is more sort of this holding onto113200:42:48.500 --> 00:42:50.840of the way we do things, the way113300:42:50.840 --> 00:42:53.240we've always done things in the church world113400:42:53.240 --> 00:42:54.460than anywhere else.113500:42:55.000 --> 00:42:56.640And I wonder if you're right.113600:42:56.680 --> 00:42:58.780It's just like fear of failure because so113700:42:58.780 --> 00:43:00.700much has worked for so long.113800:43:00.880 --> 00:43:03.960But my hope is that your words have113900:43:03.960 --> 00:43:06.860just given permission to hundreds, if not thousands,114000:43:06.980 --> 00:43:10.840of church leaders to experiment, to be entrepreneurs114100:43:10.840 --> 00:43:13.860in the faith, to try different things, to114200:43:13.860 --> 00:43:14.900fail quickly.114300:43:15.620 --> 00:43:16.720I love it.114400:43:16.760 --> 00:43:17.700That is so good.114500:43:18.300 --> 00:43:20.000You mentioned collaboration.114600:43:20.580 --> 00:43:22.720I want to talk about collaboration for a114700:43:22.720 --> 00:43:22.980bit.114800:43:23.600 --> 00:43:26.060Major theme in the book and in your114900:43:26.060 --> 00:43:29.140work with Next Move and certainly with Lausanne.115000:43:30.120 --> 00:43:32.740What have you learned about collaboration?115100:43:33.780 --> 00:43:37.020It has always been a tricky subject when115200:43:37.020 --> 00:43:38.220it comes to the church.115300:43:39.060 --> 00:43:39.900What works?115400:43:40.020 --> 00:43:40.780What doesn't work?115500:43:41.920 --> 00:43:44.180I'll never forget I had this conversation with115600:43:44.180 --> 00:43:46.440a Ukrainian pastor once that told me if115700:43:46.440 --> 00:43:48.880the church was full of vegetables and fruits115800:43:48.880 --> 00:43:50.560and vegetables, church would be easy.115900:43:50.640 --> 00:43:51.920But now it's full of people, so it's116000:43:51.920 --> 00:43:52.220hard.116100:43:52.680 --> 00:43:54.300I think it's the same with collaboration.116200:43:54.660 --> 00:43:58.440The problem with collaboration is not the belief116300:43:58.440 --> 00:43:59.720that better is together.116400:43:59.940 --> 00:44:02.020I think most people have some sense of116500:44:02.020 --> 00:44:03.160belief that better is together.116600:44:04.120 --> 00:44:08.440I think most people fundamentally think it can116700:44:08.440 --> 00:44:08.780work.116800:44:08.780 --> 00:44:12.580The challenge is paying the price for collaboration.116900:44:13.000 --> 00:44:15.640So in order to pick up collaboration, you've117000:44:15.640 --> 00:44:17.320got to lay down individualism.117100:44:18.120 --> 00:44:20.220And that's the challenge.117200:44:20.420 --> 00:44:23.840It's not the belief, it's the conversion to.117300:44:24.300 --> 00:44:25.660And I think there needs to be a117400:44:25.660 --> 00:44:28.880conversion to the belief that better is together.117500:44:29.340 --> 00:44:31.620And then there needs to be an action117600:44:31.620 --> 00:44:32.280to that.117700:44:32.460 --> 00:44:34.020And we need to be willing to try117800:44:34.020 --> 00:44:34.540and fail.117900:44:35.120 --> 00:44:38.060In many ways, it's in a world of118000:44:38.060 --> 00:44:43.460instant gratification, collaboration isn't the best way to118100:44:43.460 --> 00:44:44.540get instant gratification.118200:44:44.660 --> 00:44:45.900It's the best way to get long-term118300:44:45.900 --> 00:44:47.920success, but it's not the best way to118400:44:47.920 --> 00:44:49.000get instant gratification.118500:44:49.460 --> 00:44:51.620It's easier typically to just do it yourself118600:44:51.620 --> 00:44:53.160than to work with someone else.118700:44:53.720 --> 00:44:57.060But it's that African saying, and as an118800:44:57.060 --> 00:44:59.000African, I can testify that it truly is118900:44:59.000 --> 00:45:01.380an African saying that if you want to119000:45:01.380 --> 00:45:02.540go fast, go alone.119100:45:02.540 --> 00:45:04.640But if you want to go far, go119200:45:04.640 --> 00:45:05.040together.119300:45:05.680 --> 00:45:07.520And I think that's the reality.119400:45:07.760 --> 00:45:10.660So what I've learned about it is probably119500:45:10.660 --> 00:45:14.440a broader conversation, but I have never been119600:45:14.440 --> 00:45:17.060more convicted or convinced that it is in119700:45:17.060 --> 00:45:21.580collaboration and only in collaboration that we can119800:45:21.580 --> 00:45:24.460keep up and that we can accelerate to119900:45:24.460 --> 00:45:26.840the extent that we can truly impact and120000:45:26.840 --> 00:45:29.060change the church into the future.120100:45:30.320 --> 00:45:32.020We're not going to be able to impact120200:45:32.020 --> 00:45:33.420this generation in isolation.120300:45:33.920 --> 00:45:35.480It's only through collaboration.120400:45:35.800 --> 00:45:37.600Because collaboration is a multiplier.120500:45:38.120 --> 00:45:40.920So if you think about it, Jesus prays120600:45:40.920 --> 00:45:41.720many prayers, right?120700:45:41.980 --> 00:45:43.980But there's only one prayer of all the120800:45:43.980 --> 00:45:45.820prayers that He prays, that He prays directly120900:45:45.820 --> 00:45:46.520for you and me.121000:45:47.020 --> 00:45:48.740In fact, He says, Lord, I don't just121100:45:48.740 --> 00:45:50.460pray for them, but I pray for those121200:45:50.460 --> 00:45:52.020who would come to faith because of them.121300:45:52.120 --> 00:45:53.040So that's you and me.121400:45:53.400 --> 00:45:54.300It's the only prayer.121500:45:54.420 --> 00:45:55.120And what's that prayer?121600:45:55.420 --> 00:45:56.940Lord, I pray that they might be one121700:45:56.940 --> 00:45:58.280as You and I are one.121800:45:58.780 --> 00:46:02.780And so Jesus knew that what we needed121900:46:02.780 --> 00:46:04.840in the future in the global church is122000:46:04.840 --> 00:46:05.720being one.122100:46:06.280 --> 00:46:08.260And they will know that we're His disciples122200:46:08.260 --> 00:46:13.660for the love, agape, beneficial love we have122300:46:13.660 --> 00:46:14.240for one another.122400:46:14.460 --> 00:46:19.960So it's theologically the way, it's the need122500:46:19.960 --> 00:46:21.040demands it.122600:46:21.540 --> 00:46:23.760And then lastly, practically, it just makes sense,122700:46:23.860 --> 00:46:24.020right?122800:46:24.160 --> 00:46:27.220So draft horses, these incredible animals, I love122900:46:27.220 --> 00:46:27.480them.123000:46:28.280 --> 00:46:30.220They dwarf human beings.123100:46:30.360 --> 00:46:31.900They're massive pieces of muscle.123200:46:32.480 --> 00:46:36.680One draft horse is able to pull 8123300:46:36.680 --> 00:46:39.740,000 pounds or four tons of weight.123400:46:40.280 --> 00:46:41.860But if you put two together, you'd think,123500:46:41.980 --> 00:46:44.200well, you know, therefore two would do 16123600:46:44.200 --> 00:46:44.920pounds, right?123700:46:44.940 --> 00:46:47.66016,000 pounds, because it's twice as much.123800:46:48.080 --> 00:46:50.600No, two together can do 24, right?123900:46:50.700 --> 00:46:54.040So there's a multiplication that takes place when124000:46:54.040 --> 00:46:55.040you put two together.124100:46:55.040 --> 00:46:57.420If you train those two together, two can124200:46:57.420 --> 00:47:00.780do 36, which means two draft horses is124300:47:00.780 --> 00:47:04.020doing the work of four draft horses if124400:47:04.020 --> 00:47:05.180they're trained to work together.124500:47:06.080 --> 00:47:07.640That takes time and effort.124600:47:07.980 --> 00:47:10.040The time and effort we put into collaboration,124700:47:11.060 --> 00:47:14.900if done right, will always have exponential impact124800:47:14.900 --> 00:47:15.620down the line.124900:47:15.920 --> 00:47:18.540But in a world of instant gratification, in125000:47:18.540 --> 00:47:19.980a world of pride, in a world of125100:47:19.980 --> 00:47:22.980me, in a world of YouTube and YouVersion125200:47:22.980 --> 00:47:29.180and YouEverything and YouRule, in that world, it's125300:47:29.180 --> 00:47:30.180hard to convince people.125400:47:30.280 --> 00:47:31.720But it's the most important thing we need125500:47:31.720 --> 00:47:33.480to do in this season of the church.125600:47:33.940 --> 00:47:34.880Yeah, amen.125700:47:35.380 --> 00:47:37.140Well, we've covered a lot of ground in125800:47:37.140 --> 00:47:38.140this conversation, Gary.125900:47:38.160 --> 00:47:41.280We've talked about shifts and technology and connectedness,126000:47:41.940 --> 00:47:43.540innovation, pioneering.126100:47:43.640 --> 00:47:45.720We've talked elephants, draft horses.126200:47:46.000 --> 00:47:48.640We've really—we've covered a lot of ground.126300:47:48.640 --> 00:47:50.540Baseball, cricket, we've been around.126400:47:51.660 --> 00:47:53.540Perhaps we can leave it with this one126500:47:53.540 --> 00:47:54.540final question.126600:47:55.020 --> 00:47:57.120You said this book is not about doom126700:47:57.120 --> 00:47:58.460and gloom, right?126800:47:58.760 --> 00:48:01.400And as you look ahead, amid all the126900:48:01.400 --> 00:48:04.700shifts, the disruption, the uncertainty, the change, what127000:48:04.700 --> 00:48:06.620is the thing that gives you most hope127100:48:06.620 --> 00:48:08.080about the future of the church?127200:48:09.820 --> 00:48:13.800Most hope is difficult because I think there's127300:48:13.800 --> 00:48:15.560a lot of things that give me hope.127400:48:15.560 --> 00:48:17.260But in the same way that a farmer127500:48:17.260 --> 00:48:21.400would look over a freshly planted field with127600:48:21.400 --> 00:48:24.220all these little seedlings coming up, his hope127700:48:24.220 --> 00:48:27.440doesn't lie in this seedling is going to127800:48:27.440 --> 00:48:28.800be taller than any other.127900:48:29.340 --> 00:48:31.940But what gives me hope is the field.128000:48:32.240 --> 00:48:34.500What gives me hope is a generation that's128100:48:34.500 --> 00:48:34.920emerging.128200:48:35.320 --> 00:48:38.940It's islands of revival that's breaking out around128300:48:38.940 --> 00:48:39.440the world.128400:48:39.560 --> 00:48:41.520It's still an ocean of stepping away from128500:48:41.520 --> 00:48:43.640the faith, but there's islands of revival.128600:48:43.820 --> 00:48:45.200There's little sparks.128700:48:45.200 --> 00:48:46.180There's little ambers.128800:48:46.360 --> 00:48:47.400There's individuals.128900:48:47.660 --> 00:48:51.760There's a generation arising that's hungry for the129000:48:51.760 --> 00:48:54.040things of God and to see God do129100:48:54.040 --> 00:48:55.500great things in their generation.129200:48:56.160 --> 00:48:59.420And God has not lost a generation yet,129300:48:59.560 --> 00:49:01.820and He's not about to lose one now.129400:49:02.180 --> 00:49:04.340So, I am full of hope and excitement129500:49:04.340 --> 00:49:06.940for what lies ahead in this next season.129600:49:07.700 --> 00:49:10.960Well, thank you, Jurie, for this incredibly thought129700:49:10.960 --> 00:49:13.780-provoking conversation, and that is a beautiful note129800:49:13.780 --> 00:49:14.400to end it on.129900:49:14.400 --> 00:49:15.180Thank you, sir.130000:49:15.820 --> 00:49:16.100Thank you.130100:49:16.120 --> 00:49:17.480It was great being with you, Alicia, and130200:49:17.480 --> 00:49:19.580excited about the incredible work you guys are130300:49:19.580 --> 00:49:19.760doing.130400:49:20.360 --> 00:49:20.940Thank you.