Throne or Theater - Matt Redman & Chris Blue | Masterclass Episode 1

00:01 - Speaker 1 So you ask the question how do you train up and lead the next generation? I think it's important that you let that generation have a voice. 00:08 - Speaker 2 This idea that every Sunday we can guarantee that God's going to meet us in the 45-minute presentation. Ladies and gentlemen, it is just not how it works in the sacred narrative. How does he give you a? 00:18 - Speaker 1 heart for such a specific place and then to really see the stats and to really say we want to make change and it's possible. 00:25 - Speaker 3 You know, the hardest part in leading change is not where you leave and it's not when you get there. It's that spot in the middle. 00:30 - Speaker 1 So sometimes in your weakness, foolishness, not getting it, God's like he just does it anyway, If there's a core issue in my faith, then I can't see God right and I'll demand he does for me quickly what my character can only handle slowly. How do you know what you're speaking into until you hear where they're coming from? I had to see that proper rest and replenishment wasn't in the way. It was the way I will borrow from what's on the inside of you and bring it out, so the quality goes in before the song comes out. 01:00 - Speaker 2 Humility is this acceptance of who you really are, who God really is, that puts you in a posture to encounter God in a genuine and authentic way. Welcome to Voices from the Masterclass, a special Faithly podcast series brought to you by Faithly Preaching Masterclass and Leading Leaders Collective. 01:21 - Speaker 3 Greetings. My name is Pastor Adam Durso and this is Faithly Stories Podcast. We are live from the Preaching Masterclass with my good brother, Chris Blue. What's up, man, Chris, say what's up to the audience. 01:32 - Speaker 1 Padam, it's so good to see you, brother. I love you so much. Thank you for having me. 01:36 - Speaker 3 For those of you that don't know what Padam is, it's Pastor Adam Durso. You know it's a term of endearment and sitting here with Matt Redman, worship leader, who just led worship at the Preaching Mass class. Matt say what's good man, I'm good. 01:51 - Speaker 4 Do I get one of those names too, where you put my name into two names? 01:55 - Speaker 2 together Can we work on that? 01:57 - Speaker 4 We can work on that I've been called Rat Medman a lot of times. 02:00 - Speaker 3 I'll say this your accent makes up for whatever your nickname does lot of times. 02:04 - Speaker 2 I'll say this your accent makes up for whatever your nickname does. 02:06 - Speaker 3 So, Matt, just you know you sound, the British accent works for you. 02:09 - Speaker 4 Just want you to know that. 02:15 - Speaker 3 I'm trying really hard to keep it up. You know we were sitting here before we started recording and you started talking about when you gave your life to Christ and then the ability to lead worship at in my cities, one of our greatest evangelistic moments in recent history. Can you give the audience a little bit of that story? 02:29 - Speaker 4 Yes, absolutely. So I became a Christian 10 years old. When Louis Palau came to England, he breached in what I would call a football stadium. You would call a soccer stadium. 02:40 - Speaker 3 Soccer stadium, proper football. Yeah, that's amazing. 02:43 - Speaker 4 Well, you actually use your feet, that's one thing. But you know, I became a Christian there and then got to know him a little bit later. In my early worship leading years did a few things, but then they said, hey, will you come and be part of this mission in New York? And one of the fastest yeses I've ever given, I'm sure. And amazing actually seeing One of the fastest yeses I've ever given, I'm sure. And amazing actually seeing all those churches working together for that. It was a beautiful group effort, wasn't it? From so many different streams of the church, and so we were going to be leading in Central Park for the event. 03:17 - Speaker 3 Which, by the way, is historic in and of itself. So Billy Graham's last crusade in New York was denied Central Park. Wow, For the fact that we were able to get Central Park for that event and, to your point, the amount of churches that rallied around it. Not just Protestant churches but the Catholic Church showed up in droves to support that event, Matt it was phenomenal, it was amazing. 03:40 - Speaker 4 You know such an amazing thing. And then, a few days before, they said hey, this is crazy, we've been working on this, but we've actually just been given a permit to do Times Square. Yes, so on the day before we'll leave, worship in Times Square and we'll preach at Times Square. 03:53 - Speaker 3 It's a Friday night. Shut down Times Square. It was amazing, yeah, amazing. 03:56 - Speaker 4 Like full on production stage, everything and you know. Just amazing, like all those iconic plays to sing the name of Jesus. But one of the really special things for me was Lewis said hey, so you lead worship and then would you introduce me. And so I got to do that both in Central Park and Times Square. And I just thought I don't know God's kindness, God in the details, God surprising you with little things you know you don't deserve. I thought what an amazing thing. When I was 10 years old you knew all these years later I'm going to be standing on that stage introducing the guy who led me to the Lord. That's fantastic. And then, yeah, and we had a crazy New York month, because the same month I got to lead at Madison Square Gardens with Chris Tomlin for Worship Night in America. So it felt like it was a pretty good month leading in Central Park, times Square and worship and the garden, the world's most famous arena. 04:53 - Speaker 3 I mean, think about this, Chris you spend quite a bit of time coming back and forth to New York and people talk about New York City, they think about Sin City. But where sin abounds, that much more does grace abound. And when we lift up the name of Jesus, like you saw in the garden, people are coming to Christ in areas that you wouldn't expect, man. What's been your experience? 05:17 - Speaker 1 in New York, it's been just that man. You know you have a lot of people that are hungry and thirsty for the gospel, right, you have a lot of other rhetoric and different things that's happening in the world, but people are searching for the truth and so the gospel is that man. And when the gospel is presented every time I go to New York man, I have great interactions with people Just walking down the street of downtown Brooklyn. 05:41 - Speaker 3 I feel like people don't recognize. Like you know, God is moving everywhere. Are you seeing that on international states too, Matt? 05:45 - Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean it's interesting. In the UK right now they're talking about something called the Quiet Revival and they're saying there's some things that have crept up on people and they didn't realize. Like sales of Bibles have gone up hugely. Wow, People coming to the Alpha course you know one of these amazing evangelistic course. It's gone up. The numbers have gone up, and then numbers of young people who are interested in spirituality, or, funnily enough, they're saying it's the first time in history that the males, when they were doing these questionnaires or anything, the males are scoring higher than the females in terms of their interest. Yes, so there's all that, their interest, so there's all that. I'll tell you one thing For me two months ago I got to go into Angola Prison, which is Louisiana. 06:31 - Speaker 3 Yeah. 06:32 - Speaker 4 With God Behind Bars. I don't know if that's who you went in with, but I mean just to glimpse what God's doing in a prison. You know that place used to be the bloodiest prison in the whole of America, right? 06:43 - Speaker 3 now. Now it's the safest prison in America. It, that place, used to be the bloodiest prison in the whole of America. Now it's the safest prison in America. It's amazing. 06:46 - Speaker 4 And you're seeing like, for example, people who've become Christians in there 20 years ago have just been sowing and praying for 20 years and now they're seeing the fruit of that Right and they're bringing these people in. We were leading worship and baptizing and I was like, if this isn't the kingdom of God, I don't know what it is 90 plus percent will never see the light of day outside that prison. 07:08 - Speaker 3 And they've been there and nobody's in handcuffs in the chapels, as you know, and they're worshiping God and some have gone through theological training. Now they're pastoring other inmates. Yes, okay, here's the question, and this goes to either of you, gentlemen why isn't anybody talking about this? Like you mentioned, the rhetoric, Chris. I hear all the stuff that is being talked about, all this noise out there, and yet there seems to be, as you said, a quiet room. Something I just feel like something's stirring. 07:36 - Speaker 1 Yeah, Well, I mean, the scriptures say in the last day I'm going to pour out my spirit upon all flesh yes. Right. So I feel like it's God divinely intervening, and the reason why I know why he's talking about it is because we're not we weren't prepared for it. 07:52 He just kind of pouring out his spirit and they're like wait, what's going on? I wasn't anticipating this. Right, I'm not anticipating the most dangerous prison in the world to become the most safest prison in the world because of the gospel. I wasn't expecting that to happen. But now, look, become the most safest prison in the world because of the gospel. I wasn't expecting that to happen, but now look, you know revivals breaking out all over the country on college campuses. You know there's so much happening in college. 08:12 - Speaker 3 So much happened. You just told me about what just happened at the University of. 08:14 - Speaker 1 Tennessee. So we had 8,000, 9,000 students inside of the Food City Arena just worshiping God, just hungry for God. Afterwards you had about 300 students who never knew Christ except Christ and started getting baptized In the back of pickup trucks. Wow, hungry and desperate and thirsty for the truth. Man, and that's the generation that I live in. We want the truth. What gravitates to us, or what we gravitate toward, is authenticity, yes, and Jesus said I am the way, the truth. So he's like whatever standard, whatever name you want to name anything, you measure it up against me because I'm the truth. Yeah, not whatever people are telling you, not whatever, not whatever everybody's saying or what. I'm the truth. And so that's what we're hungry for, that's what my generation's hungry for. 09:01 - Speaker 4 We want truth and that's that's what we're running to yeah, and it's interesting for me because, you know, and for us, like we're writing worship songs is an amazing way of putting the truth on display, right, and I feel sometimes that responsibility of like, okay, if there's all these young people or new people coming to church, we we've got to give them a great view of who God is through the songs. You know this, it's no time to be singing shallow songs or songs that just kind of hint or give tiny little clues as to the heart and the ways of God. We actually need to put him on display in an amazing, amazing way. You know, it's a key time. 09:37 - Speaker 3 Now you both write music, you both lead worship. Yes, but stylistically you're probably pretty different. 09:44 - Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean probably. I imagine he knows more than the five chords that I know. 09:51 - Speaker 1 Five and a half for me. 09:54 - Speaker 3 Talk about ministering to people in or through specific genres or in specific contexts. One of my favorite verses and Jesus spoke to them as they could understand. I mean, this is the word incarnate, this is the word that becomes flesh. He could have blew their minds with eschatology. And he speaks to a woman at a well about water. He speaks to farmers about sowing and reaping. He's in a vineyard and he talks about you know. So how do you minister to people in the context God's called you? To minister to them in a way that leads them to the throne of grace, without putting up the barriers that might exist in cultural differences? 10:36 - Speaker 4 Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, there's so many. 10:41 I'll give you a 10 for that. I think there's a lot of answers to that question. One thing to note is that the authenticity part that you already said, but it's interesting to me if I'm in a room writing these days, I'm 51 and I have to recognise my strength in that room is probably the lyric and the content and that and I was in a room the other day, nate Diaz from Elevation Rhythm and another writer and I added up their two ages and it still didn't come to mind and I thought and so in a room like that, I'm leaning, I'm letting them lead the way stylistically. You know, vibe, you know. Just, I'm not the guy for that. You know I can bring some stuff, I'm sure, but but I have to learn to sit back and like, oh, if we're going to reach this generation, yes, that needs to come through your voice, yes, and so that's part of it. But the biggest thing I would say, um, the the best stuff actually, I think, found in fusion, like when there's fusion, like if I write with someone who grew up in the same stable as me, create with someone who grew up thinking the way I think, they learned the way I learned. There's sometimes a limited amount that can happen in my experience. Some of the best ones for me are when you're writing with someone who's so completely just thinks differently to you, approaches things differently. 12:02 I had a day a few years ago with Tasha Cobbs Leonard and you know, she said at the beginning you might wonder why I want to write with you. And I was like, yeah, kind of she's like because you got something I need and I got something you need. And she's like in our expression of church, we are very strong on high praise. You are not strong on that. And I was like I accept that absolutely. And she said, but some of the um, theological, poetic content you know of stuff you've been writing or it's coming out of your stream, I would love to dig into that more. And we wrote like five songs that day. Wow, and four of them ended up being like in the first five songs on her record, which never happens, you know. You know it's like you might write five and one of them makes it to be sung or re-recorded and I realized so afterwards. I was like why was that going so well? And I think it was the fusion. 12:56 I think it was like here comes two different things, yes, and because there's unity but not uniformity, yes, there's something really beautiful happens when these two things come together and make something a bit different, and I think it hopefully felt authentic. But then the funny thing was we had a song called Gracefully Broken and we both recorded it and we didn't plan this. 13:22 It actually came out on the same day it was with different labels it wasn't a plan and actually came out on the same day. It was with different labels, it wasn't there wasn't a plan and they came out on the same day and I thought that's kind of cool, like because her expression of it is going to reach, you know, a certain stream of the church. My expression will probably resonate more with another expression, but there is something unified about that. We sat in a room and wrote that together. You know a couple other people. 13:45 - Speaker 1 You know the Bible says go ye out into the world preaching the gospel, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. It's going into the world. One of the greatest things that's happened to me was when I got married. My wife introduced me to travel and amazing, I spent most of my life in america, right, just traveling around, trying to I'm. My goal was I gotta reach all 50 states. I reach all 50 states. I've lived life, I've seen the world. But then when I started traveling outside the states, yeah, becoming more exposed to different cultures, different traditions, different ideologies, lifestyles. 14:17 Yeah, it really opened me up, and then I learned that with exposure comes expansion. Yeah, yes. So if we're truly going to reach the world, we have to become more exposed to different cultures, to different ideas, to different genders, to different age demographics. We have to become more exposed and more open to that exposure, because that's only going to help us expand and reach the people that God has truly called us to reach, and those are the people of the world. 14:43 - Speaker 4 Yeah, and it's such a that's the classroom, isn't it? Like there's no better classroom than getting totally outside of your experience and how you think and have been taught to think, and then you, you, you get somewhere and it's the same Jesus, but you can learn so much. 14:58 - Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, know the things that tripped me out was the day I realized, like you say, your favorite verse God truly does meet us where we are. Yes, he is limitless in his language. Yes, and in interpretation. Yes, right, he's able to speak to the Hispanic in a language that they understand. 15:15 - Speaker 5 Yeah. 15:15 - Speaker 1 I can't speak a lick of Latin. I can't speak a lick of it, latin. I can't speak a lick of it. Right, I'm not good, but God does. And so if he does, then we have to, as image bearers of Christ, do all we can to expose ourselves to that, so that we can carry out our mission. 15:33 - Speaker 4 Yeah, and one thing to add back to the thing with Tasha what I realized was sometimes we've got these different streams of expression in the church. You wouldn't ever run a company like that, you wouldn't have, oh, we're going to keep them all separate and we'll never have synergy and we'll never actually use our combined strength. You wouldn't do that and you wouldn't run anything like that. We have to be careful. We don't do it in the church because sometimes we have to be careful. We don't do it in that in the church, because sometimes we we have this combined strength, um in numbers, but also the way we can learn from each other, sharpen each other, spur each other on, bring the best out of each other. We're not leaning into it, we're not, we're not like using that strength. And I realized in that moment sometimes there's no enmity but there's also no effort. You know there's no enmity, it, but there's also no effort. 16:20 You know, there's no enmity, it's like we've got nothing against each other. But you know, I might even be my friends, but I haven't made any effort to. 16:27 - Speaker 3 Are we being intentional about that diversity, that expression? 16:29 - Speaker 4 Yes, I think it's really important. 16:34 - Speaker 3 Yeah, part of this year's Preaching Masterclass, pastor Albert Tate's vision was to bring in worship leaders as part of it, to raise up this next generation of worship and next generation of preachers and speakers and communicators. And, Matt, you and I are. I'm 48. You said you're 51. You know it's strange because at one time, you know, I thought I was a young guy in the room at 19. 16:57 - Speaker 4 I mean, that's nearly 100 if you add up that's not good, you and I both. 17:03 - Speaker 3 But you know, and so you know you go from being the young guy in the room and at 48, I recognize part of what God's called me to do in this season is investing in that next generation. Doesn't mean that you know I'm going to go out, sit on the back porch somewhere and retire. That's not what I'm saying at 48 at all, but what I am saying is part of it is how do I encourage this next generation? How do we raise them up? How do I give them 29 years Next year will be 30 years of ministry for me how am I pouring that back into them? 17:40 - Speaker 4 How are you two intentionally raising up other voices in this space? Yeah, actually, one of my favorite church expressions in the world is this community in Singapore called Heart of God, amazing church. Yes, and their whole thing is reinforcement, not replacement. 17:55 - Speaker 3 Say that again, man. 17:56 - Speaker 4 Reinforcement, not replacement. That's phenomenal. So they're building a leadership model where they'll have a senior leadership model which is already two generations, so there's like the older, founder people on it, and then there's the newer level and they are of equal authority on that. You know, it's not like all the young ones we're still, you know. 18:12 - Speaker 2 Bless them, we'll give them a little bit of stuff to do, right. 18:14 - Speaker 4 They've actually brought them in and said you are senior leaders, you are on this level with us. Their ultimate plan is to have three generational. That's awesome, but you'll see in the thing so they don't just discard someone when they get to a certain point. You know, because we've got to have the younger guy in, they're bringing them in and then they're working alongside each other and they're leaning into each other's strengths and I love that so much. And and for me, honestly you ask how I do it the songwriting moment is amazing. You could get a whole day together right. Songwriting it's not really about the songs. In some ways, is it? You actually can sharpen each other, you can grow together. 18:55 It's an amazing way to have community, isn't it? Like songwriting, you're hanging for the day it is. 19:01 - Speaker 1 It is man and you get to hear stories. Yeah yes right, experience, their life, their experience, and you get to walk with them. That's another form of discipleship, right. You get to just kind of walk with them and let them walk with you, and see your life and you see their life. 19:14 You guys get to experience your lives together. Yeah, you know, in that moment you said something that I don't think you even realized what you were saying when you was writing with Nate and those other guys. Oh yeah, you kind of let them have a voice, yeah, in the room. So you asked the question how do you train up and lead the next generation? I think it's important that you let that generation have a voice, yeah, because how do you know what you're speaking into until you hear where they're coming from? 19:39 - Speaker 3 Right yeah. 19:40 - Speaker 1 You know what I mean? Yeah, and so for me, it's putting people in position to have a voice. I want to hear your heart, I want to see your life. I can't pour into you, I can't pour into this mug. You know, 10 ounces, if you know, it's only an eight ounce mug, right, you feel? 19:57 - Speaker 3 what I'm saying, an eight ounce mug Right. You feel what I'm saying yeah, yeah. 19:59 - Speaker 1 So I think that's important giving them a voice. 20:01 - Speaker 3 I mean, God has always been a multi-generational God. He's the God of, he said. I am the God of Abraham, isaac and Jacob. It's not older or younger. It's not either or it's not. Well, we just want young people on the platform. 20:16 - Speaker 1 I didn't want to tell y'all, I didn't want to say my age, but just a little bit, talk a little bit about like the younger person that says nah, man, we doing our own thing. 20:26 - Speaker 3 Like what is it? To steward your gift? By coming underneath or by allowing somebody to mentor you and speak into your life, to sharpen your gift so you can be the best you can be? And who are those people in your life. 20:40 - Speaker 1 Number one. It's just wisdom Number one. Zeal without wisdom is a sin Right. We will constantly miss the mark if we think we know it all. Yeah, that's good man, we will constantly miss it. There's nothing new under the sun. Yeah, why am I trying to reinvent the wheel? Right, bro, it was already invented. Let me buy back time, the one thing that I spend and I can never get back. Let me buy back my time by sitting under a Matt Redman or sitting under a Pastor Adam Durst, not for lyrics. 21:14 - Speaker 3 I barely clap on beat. I can't sing. 21:18 - Speaker 1 When it comes to communication. 21:19 - Speaker 4 You might need some help from AI. 21:23 - Speaker 3 Are we still good for our guitar lesson later on? 21:25 - Speaker 4 Yeah, let's do it. 21:26 - Speaker 1 I'm looking forward to learning more from you, you go to him, to the five chords. I got you that half a chord. Okay, I'll give you five and a half. But yeah, it's just positioning yourself to want to grow and you have to want to be better. 21:42 - Speaker 4 Yeah, I think that's important too, I've been teaching on songwriting at Biola University in California and I love it. But what they don't realize is I'm learning as much as they are Right, because you know I'm there. They think, oh, he's the expert, he's the one who's done it for years. You know he's got all the experience. He's the one who's done it for years. You know he's got the experience. But actually, you know, I love being in a room with these young writers and someone will come up with an idea and I literally think I would never, ever have thought of that. There's no way that idea is coming from my that's awesome brain. And wow, and and it's a funny thing is what you said like being not thinking that you know everything. You know not thinking that you're the guy, you're the expert. It is. It's such a blessing, isn't it it? 22:24 - Speaker 1 is. But you, like you said, you have a heart of humility and you're open to receive, and I think that's important. We just all have to be open to receive at all times. Yeah, because there's only one man who knows it all, right? 22:38 - Speaker 3 Yeah, Something happened today. Let's talk about this. I stepped out of the sanctuary. You were leading at that moment. I came back in the sanctuary. You were just worshiping, I think you were just like you were. You were having a moment. Pastor Albert Tate was on the floor on his knees by the altar area making his own altar call. I don't think there was an altar call made. Jonathan McReynolds was going in. Like what happens when you've got a set list, you've got something in your mind, you've got a plan, and then God shows up and takes over. Talk to me a little bit. I know that from a preaching standpoint. Like when you show up and you're like the Lord's, like no, no, no, you thought you were going to preach from that text, but I got something else to say. What happens when you're leading and you're facilitating that moment. You're literally ushering people into the presence of almighty God and then God just takes over. 23:31 - Speaker 4 I think we love it right. 23:33 I mean to be honest with you, there's a bit of a safety blanket because those musicians are so good. So the time where I'd be freaking out a bit more, as if I was playing with a band I never played with like this morning, but then the musicians were you know. You know, you weren't sure if they would know that song or if they would or would know to flow to this thing. So there was a bit of a blessing, honestly having a strong team. But the main thing for me is I love those moments because they make it obvious with we're conversing with a living God. Yes, you know, they take it away from feeling just like ritual or your religion and they actually think, oh, this is alive and breathing, this is a dynamic, open-ended, flowing conversation. They're obviously talking to the, to a living God. Yes and uh, and that's what I love about it I love it. 24:20 - Speaker 1 I love it so much as well because I was just at this conference, singing at a women's conference up in Kansas City, and I had my set list. I went out there. I felt like the first two songs I bombed. It was just I personally, they were enjoying it, having a great time. I got to the third song and by the end of it I felt the shift. Yeah, and every time I feel this shift I know, okay, something's about to happen, God. Okay, God is about to do something crazy. Yeah, and he did. I went into a whole nother set that was unplanned, didn't even think about it, just all happened in that moment. Yeah, and I loved it because it freed me. It freed me from the chains that I put on myself to want to come out and impress people. 25:01 - Speaker 3 Yes, yeah, you kind of set the tone that way this morning, Because when you first came out and asked everybody, it's not going to be like me bringing it it was just like no, we're going to join in this chorus of angels and the worship that's already engaged in the throne. 25:16 - Speaker 4 Yeah, no, it's good. There's a great thing Oswald Chambers said. He said complete weakness and dependence will always be the occasion for the Spirit of God to manifest His power, and it's a good thing to remember in moments like that. Right, like, actually I don't have to have the whole plan here, actually, it doesn't matter if I don't feel 100% ready. You rarely do right. Complete weakness and dependence will always be the occasion for the Spirit of God to manifest his power. You can look scripturally, you can see that pattern emerge and actually look back over your own life so often and you see that pattern emerge as well. Right, sometimes, when you didn't have a clue, God still did it. Sometimes, when you felt weak, not quite there there, God still did it. And that happens in every scenario. 26:02 Services, songs I mean I've we sung 10 000 reasons today. I wasn't even going to put that on the album. That's how you know. Like half worship, we sung that this morning as well. I wasn't going to ever lead that congregationally. So sometimes in your weakness, foolishness, not getting it, God like he just does it anyway. Right, and I love. 26:24 And actually you learn to embrace dependence. I used to be scared of dependence, you know, be like, oh, that's scary. You know, like, not what, not having control with the situation. You know that sounds a bit freaky, but actually you learn to embrace that, you learn to think no, this is one of the best gifts. 26:40 And actually, as a musician, songwriter, like I love, you can't write a great song and then the next day you go in and repeat your success If, by some act of grace, yes, you've got experience, you've worked on your skills and crafts, so you're bringing something to the mix, but a great worship song that really leads people to the throne, we don't really know how we did it. 27:05 You know we wrote tons of songs and somehow that song seemed to be the one that took wings right. And there's a beauty in that because it keeps you on your knees, it keeps you going right. Tomorrow I can't go in and just repeat my success by doing the same thing. I'm just as desperate as I was yesterday and that's a gift, because an accountant doesn't have that gift. You know, an accountant goes in, has a breakthrough, figures out how to do something, can go in, do it the next day, and sometimes some of the ministry things we get involved with there's a built-in dependence factor which I used to be scared of and get frustrated with but I've actually learned to embrace and rejoice that it's there, man. 27:52 - Speaker 1 yeah, I want to chime in, but you said that so beautifully. 27:53 - Speaker 3 Let me ask you this then, as a follow-up Chris, that's not an excuse for sloppiness, right? Good question. 27:59 - Speaker 4 So let's be clear, right. 28:00 - Speaker 3 Like one of my. I'm just, you know, I'm a PK grown up in the church, 30 years of ministry now, and I've seen some guys who are anointed but they're sloppy. And then I know guys that are just uber talented and they've got all the precision but they're just not anointed and somewhere it's, and both not either or right. The Bible says that when they were looking for somebody to play for Saul, they said there's a man named David. He plays skillfully and the Lord is with him. He's both skillful. That's. I work on my craft. I want to be a better communicator. I want to. I should know the lyrics. I need to know the chords. But also, my dependency is at a place where I'm not so dependent in myself that I leave out the move of the spirit of God, because I also need to be anointed, because this is not a natural thing, this is a spiritual thing. Talk to the guy that it's choosing the either or instead of the, and both man. Yeah, that's good. 28:57 - Speaker 1 Then you are missing it completely, because the more you learn, the more you learn. You don't know. 29:02 - Speaker 3 Yes. 29:03 - Speaker 1 Right. So you're studying your craft and you're getting better, but then you realize there's so much more to this that I need God for, yeah, right, and that helps you to kind of lean into him more, but at the same time you're like getting better at a craft. You feel what I'm saying. So for the person who says man, I don't, you know, I can be sloppy, or I can either, or then you're missing it and you're robbing the people of a moment to experience God the way he's supposed to be experienced. 29:30 - Speaker 4 I think that I actually went through a phase where I did equate spontaneous with spiritual, so where I did equate spontaneous with spiritual. So I wrote I mean way back like I wrote a song called Better Is One Day. I literally was getting prayed for, got off the floor, got up to the mic and thought, well, I'm going to sing now. I opened up Psalm 84, start singing that out. Tons of the song came out. 29:48 So from that moment on, for a little while I thought, oh, spontaneous means the Holy Spirit was involved and it's truly inspired, and I actually forgot the fact that, no, actually the Holy Spirit can inspire hard work too, and he can actually give you, you know, the inspiration to contend for something and to really work for you know, fight for something. 30:09 And you know, years later I learned that through other songs like Blessed Be your Name probably took six months rather than six minutes, you know. And I think that is a thing like sometimes, especially maybe in worship world, where we sometimes think, oh, spontaneous, that means God is here, and actually it is both. It's like you prepare your socks off before ask God what to do, form that song list as well as you can, and be ready, yes, but then in the moment also have an open heart to see if there's anything else God wants to whisper in the moment. And it's both, because, like you say, if you put too much weight in the spontaneity and the beauty of that, then you lose the other one, you get sloppy, you get sloppy, you get lazy. 30:59 - Speaker 3 Yes, yeah, I think preparation is the breeding ground for spontaneity. That's great. Being able and prepared allows you to be able to move and nuance and do what God is saying in the moment, should he choose to do something different that's not on the set list or not as part of your message notes. So if you were both, as we kind of bring this to a close, I'm sitting here with my brother Chris, my brother Matt, newly formed brotherhood, and we're going to take you to New York, man, we're going to take you to the streets. 31:28 Let's do it and so we're live at Preaching Masterclass. If you were going to say one thing to worship leaders that are listening right now to this podcast, what would you say to them, Chris and then we'll have you wrap it up, Matt what you would say to them. 31:42 - Speaker 1 I think what I would say to them is in all thy ways, acknowledge him. That's great. He'll direct your path. You have to remain in a posture of humility and acceptance of whatever it is God wants to say, do and wherever he wants to take you and don't get caught up in all the don't get caught up on the platform. You give God a platform. When you give God a platform, he'll give you one. So that's what I would say to a worship leader. 32:13 - Speaker 4 I mean I would. This is off anything we spoke about today, but I think one of the key questions in these days for like worship it's like do you want entertainment or do you want encounter? Yes, I don't think you can have both. Yes, you know, and like is your. When you look at what you're doing in your gathered worship, does it look more like throne room or theater? Because if it looks more like theater, you're settling for something less. There is a power to theater. But if you, if your worship is just theater, you're settling for something less. There is a power to theater. But if your worship is just theater, you'll only have the power of theater. Wow, but the power of throne is way more. 32:43 So think about being a priest more than a performer. Think about encounter more than entertainment, and I think that's a key moment for us in these days. We're living in this crazy moment, even off stage, where there's never been so much opportunity to show off self-congratulate, self-obsess. When it comes to social media, for example, what I noticed is, years ago, if you showed off a little bit as a pastor or a worship leader or something on social media, you'd out for it. That'd be the hashtag humble brag. 33:18 - Speaker 2 I thought that was a fun game I like that right. 33:22 - Speaker 4 We don't do that anymore. You know what? It doesn't even set off the alarm anymore. Someone self-aggrandizes, you know, and you know tells you something you don't really need to know about them. They could have kept themselves. Or you know, someone told them it but then they amplified it 10,000 times by telling all their followers it. That's not cool. That's not kingdom of God, that's just the values of the world, it's not the values of the church. But it doesn't even set the alarm off anymore. Yes, and so I think it's really key in these days. It was kind of like onstage, offstage social media. Let's just put things through the filter of the values of the kingdom. Is this how people behave in the kingdom of God, you know? And that's a whole other podcast. 34:09 - Speaker 2 So we'll work on part two. 34:12 - Speaker 3 Pastor Adam Durso here for Faithly Stories live from Preaching Masterclass with Chris Blue. Matt Redman. I hope you were blessed. Continue to follow us at faithlyco. Have a blessed day. 34:22 - Speaker 5 Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. The Faithly digital platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection, foster collaboration and promote growth within the church and ministry space. Remember to subscribe, rate and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you. Stay tuned for more uplifting tales from the frontlines of ministry on the Faithly Podcast. Stay bold, stay faithful and never underestimate the power of your own story.