The Trust We Need - Dr. Judith McAllister & Aaron Lindsey | Masterclass Episode 5

(0:02 - 0:25) So you asked the question, how do you train up and lead the next generation? I think it's important that you let that generation have a voice. This idea that every Sunday we can guarantee that God's gonna meet us in the 45-minute presentation, ladies and gentlemen, it is just not how it works in the sacred narrative. How does he give you a heart for such a specific place and then to really see the stats and to really say we want to make change and it's possible. (0:26 - 10:14) You know the hardest part in leading change is not where you leave and it's not when you get there, it's that spot in the middle. So sometimes in your weakness, foolishness, not getting it, God's like, he just does it anyway. If there's a core issue in my faith and I can't see God right and I'll demand he does for me quickly what my character can only handle slowly. How do you know what you're speaking into until you hear where they're coming from? I had to see that proper rest and replenishment wasn't in the way, it was the way. I will borrow from what's on the inside of you and bring it out. So the quality goes in before the song comes out. Humility is this acceptance of who you really are, who God really is, that puts you in a posture to encounter God in a genuine and authentic way. Welcome to Voices from the Masterclass, a special Faithly podcast series brought to you by Faithly, preaching masterclass and leading leaders collective. Welcome to Faithly Stories podcast. My name is Pastor Adam Durso. I'm the founder and president of leading leaders collective and a senior advisor at Faithly and I am super excited to be joined by two incredible guests. One who's going to be guest co-hosting with me, the incomparable. Oh here we go. Aaron Lindsey. Come on my brother. I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for letting me sit in with you man. You are a beast and I really appreciate it. Would you introduce yourself to the audience? I know you don't need any introduction. My name is Aaron Lindsey. I am 30 years in the music industry as a producer, songwriter, co-founder of a worship band called Israel and New Breed and as a producer I've been blessed in this industry, multiple Grammys and all the things and God has been faithful. But now my most exciting role, which she had a part to play in and I can't wait to talk about that, is my wife and I accepted the call to senior pastorate and we founded a church, planted a church called Believe LA in Calabasas, California on January 22nd, 2023. Come on. So now my principal role, my new dominant identity is senior pastor of Believe LA. Okay, okay senior pastor. Come on. Okay. So I'm one of the pastors at the Christian Culture Center under Pastor Bernard and so Israel is, you know, leading worship there and the whole deal and I have just heard, I mean, all of my musicians for 30 years of ministry have like just, you have mentored them from afar and so and now you are stewarding this new role and we're here live at the Preaching Masterclass and as I heard it you are also the Dean of the Worship College for the Preaching Masterclass. I think somehow that came up and so you got more titles and Grammys. You know what to do. I don't have a formal education to do none of this. I got an honorary one but I didn't earn one. So would you please, as Mr. co-host, would you please introduce our guest today? Yes, this woman is number one a woman of God. She is a legend in worship and in gospel music. She has recorded many albums and projects but I would like to also note that she was a former president of the International Music Department of the Churches of God in Christ. Yes. She is a leader's leader and she has served faithfully under her pastor for two decades, almost two decades, and she just wrote, she's an author. She's got two books. Okay. Her most recent book is about that relationship but more importantly I would like to say she is one of the most tuned-in to God people I have met in a long time. She lives what she says. She walks with the Lord. She's an incredible wife, incredible mom, and she's my friend and I love her dearly. I call her Pastor Judith McAllister. I know her eyes go every time I say that but she's a shepherd's shepherd man and I just love her. Dr. Judith McAllister. Y'all make some noise. We're going to have to pipe in the applause up in this piece. Wow, wow, wow. Such an honor to be with you all this afternoon or day or whatever time this is being seen. It's all good. It's always now. It's on demand. I like that. So let's talk a little bit about, I mean we are live from Preaching Masterclass in Southern California and something happened this morning in worship. Mm-hmm. And I was in the room, Matt Redmond's leading worship, doing his thing. It was great. I left the room. I came back and it was, you know, the blood has not lost its power into something and Jonathan McReynolds was leading worship. You were up there directing traffic and Albert Tate was on the floor, made his own altar call. Like just, what happened? Well, what happened is Matt, through the song Son of Suffering, that's a beautiful song. Yes it is. Oh my goodness. The lyrics, oh. So you're listening to this and the song created this beautiful picture of the cross. Mm-hmm. And as a African-American gospel-leaning musician who has a lot of experience at CCM, my, as a musical director and producer, my mind starts flipping through hymns. Yes, yes. Songs, album covers and all of a sudden it landed on, it reaches to the highest mountain. In my mind. And I hear it. And I'm like, oh there's a lot of people. I look around the room like, oh there's enough people that know that. Right. Some of them like to have our same haircut. Yeah, yeah. And I said, this will bless them. And I had enough relational equity with Albert to go, hey, this could really shift. Albert's leading the conference and you have enough relational equity. Let's just pause for the audience right there because if you don't handle that relationship well, if you don't steward the relationship, you don't get the opportunity to go on the platform and do what you do. Right. No, you can't just run up there and do, you know, you get security. Right. And speaking of relationship, relational equity, because I've actually watched you, Dr. Judith, do that in ministry for years, for decades, where you had enough equity with your senior pastor the same way I had equity with with Albert to be able to go, hey, what would happen if the blow never loses power happened in here? I like, how would you have handled a moment like that in your congregation? Well, the interesting thing about it is that that relational equity is not built in the moment of ministry. Right. As a matter of fact, sometimes it has nothing to do with ministry. Right. You know, I remember the first time I became minister of music of West Angeles, I'm the only female, and I had a wonderful, hey, wonderful group of gentlemen, you know, and I recognized and realized that in order for them to trust me, I had to create an atmosphere for that. So what I did was every Saturday before rehearsal, I took them out to breakfast, didn't talk about music, didn't talk about ministry. But something interesting, and I believe even God breathed happened that the relationship that we formed eating breakfast translated on stage. Yeah, that's so good. So that I would just move that way and they would follow me. Right. And so that equity was built through just every day. And I think I remember you saying something about pastor and the worship leader, that relationship, that symbiotic relationship that should be developed, it does not happen in, you know, I'm listening to your messages. I look at my relationship with Bishop Blake, by the way, that book, Mom and Pop Minister of Music, Pastor of the People is written on Amazon. But it speaks to that very relationship, that there was a shepherding, there was a fathering, there was also a mutual trust. I remember the first time that worship, now, you know, Aaron, in the traditional Church of God in Christ, back then, we didn't do all the things that we do now. It was, this is like leap years, light years. But I remember that the first time praise and worship was introduced to the jurisdiction. Now, he's the bishop of a group of churches, at that time was like 250 churches within this jurisdiction, and praise and worship was just being introduced. Was that the Patrick Henderson days? Yes. Oh my gosh, praise and worship. Yes. Yes. Game changers. At that time, when the bishop walked into the church, into the service, everything stopped. Right. The bishop has come in, you could be preaching, mid-sentence, you could be singing a song, everything stopped. He called me into the office. Now, again, based on relationship. Right. He said, no matter what they do, do not stop singing. Wow. So, here I am. Wow. Here I am, a female. Yes. All of the preachers are on the stage. Bishop Blake walks in. The elder comes from this side, trying to pull the mic out of my hand. Mm-hmm. And I'm in a real weird space because nobody heard him say, don't stop singing. Right. And I have to obey my leader. So now you look rebellious. Right. Oh, wow. To the congregation. Daggone. Right? That's crazy. But this is how it was settled. He walked in and stood there and lifted his hands. That said to the congregation, I told her what to do. (10:14 - 10:55) Right. And this is the example in the posture that I want all of you to take. That's kind of what Albert did today. Exactly. By taking a posture of worship. Yes. Wow. So, when that happened, when we had that dust up, people could be going, who does he think he is? Right. Why is he up there? He just interrupted Matt Redmond. They don't know Matt is like a dear friend and we talk on the phone all the time. They don't know Albert and I are almost like best friends. Right. And so, Albert endorsed what happened. Yes, exactly. And to some extent, it's a detriment to the church when the lead pastor or the person presiding over that service is not there for worship. (10:56 - 17:29) Because they are in some ways endorsing a transfer of trust almost to the worship leader. So speak to that. I mean, because, you know, I grew up in a culture, my dad's church comes out of the Brooklyn Tabernacle in New York City. And so, you know, pastors came in late. And, you know, it was like it was already flowing. It was already happening. Like, no, no, no. Like you being up front, you may not be on a mic, you may not be singing, you may not be able to hold a note. But you are actually maybe one of the most important people in that worship moment. Because you're letting the congregation know that, hey, we can trust this person. Exactly. This is what I, yeah. So when that lead pastor is listening to this podcast right now, what would you say to them? That they are the chief worship leader. That they are the example of how their congregation should worship. Right. And it's top down. Yes. You know, again, I have to bring up Bishop Charles Edward Blake, Sr. Sure. He was basically the epitome of a worshiper. You know, he didn't dance and do all of those things, but he would stand and lift his hands and begin to sing and show the congregation. As a matter of fact, just a little bit of history, Saints in Praise Days, as you know, was really pivotal in shifting the mentality of the black church, the mainline Pentecostal churches more so. And he would sit at the piano, him being a musician, and he would teach these songs to the congregation. And so it was like a natural transfer when I came on that I began to take on his spirit and began to teach the congregation the songs. But he would stand there as well, singing the songs along with us. So the pastor is the chief worship leader. And pastor, don't ever relegate that to another person or your team. You are the chief worship leader and the people will follow as you follow Christ. Yeah, as a senior pastor now, I understand you got both. You know, you've done man. And now I'm starting to learn a lot of things that through my worship leader lens, I didn't understand. So I was just under the assumption that the pastor would come in late just because he could. You know, he was dealing with things, the other elements of the church. But I didn't realize sometimes the the amount of weight that carrying around 2000 words in your brain to go deliver in a sermon, you're carrying those when you walk into the building and people start asking you questions, and it starts to throw you off. And by the time they leave you, even the worship leader or band, by the time they go in to do what they're doing, that's the first time you get quiet again. Right. So sometimes it takes 10 or 15 minutes to get back into, OK, I got to prepare for this word to make sure I got my intro right. And I always thought it was just man, they got their sipping coffee and hanging out. But here's here's what I've decided to do. We do three services. And if I can't get right in, I'll go to my worship leader and say, hey, y'all, hey, man, I got to get these words back in order because I had to come help y'all resolve some things. Give me grace. I'll be in on the second service. And they they understand that I was like, Pastor, we don't expect it. But I also know it says to the congregation something when I'm there. So I would encourage pastors, try your best to be there. And even if you just catch the last song, when you get there, get involved. Don't sit with your phone on your phone down. You can re-engage your notes while the offering is going on. Did you really just throw your phone? I did throw my phone down. You both have hit on relationship, the relationship between the lead pastor and the lead worship leader. You said it last night. You said, you know, by the way, we're here live from Preaching Masterclass. You said, you know, we've got worship leaders in the room. And you said, how are you going to give basically the same amount of time that the lead pastor is going to be up there teaching, you're going to give to your worship leader and not develop a relationship with them? How important is it to establish that relationship and that trust so that you can excel at what God's called you to do in the worship space and in the lead role? Well, I want to, well, I'm thinking based on the question. This may be a little controversial, but I believe that the worship leaders should come from the house. I take issue, and I've seen some things in my travels, I've been doing this over 40 years, that when people are hired in to do a job, there's an element that does not really exist when that is that worship leader or that musician is from the house and has had the opportunity to hear the word, to ingest the word, and then take that word and translate it through their music, whether it be through a song that has specific lyrics or just the spirit of the house. Now, if there's somebody in maturity that understands how to come under the mantle of the house, and that's another thing. But I've seen where people come in with their whole new agenda, and maybe because they have a new name or not a new name, but a no name, yeah, they come in and just like the pastor is, well, who is the pastor? No, we are supposed to be submitted to the leadership of the church. I think the reason why, and I often say this, that the Lord has blessed my life is because I submitted to the leadership of my pastor. The reason why you know my name is because I got under his vision and helped to amplify it and to illuminate it so that the people will know what's in his heart. And so what would I say about that again, that relationship, that symbiotic relationship is so very important. I believe that when Jesus was here and he was ministering with his disciples, they went everywhere together. Now it's not really possible for us to necessarily do that, but there was just that relationship of that every day. And thank God that he did because now we're here because of it. I believe that if there had not been that relationship, some of the things that Jesus did, we would not have known because of the fact that there was a separation. So it's very important. (17:29 - 19:57) Well, Jesus is the model for everything we do as believers. We always point to Christ, whatever it is, like we do it, we see it observed in Christ's life or in his leadership style. And when Jesus came and he entered into his ministry, he didn't start anything before he built his team. Because you know, Jesus knew you don't go as far as your dream, you go as far as your team. So the first thing he did was built a team. They were called disciples. And he said, come follow me. And as he ministered to people, he kept those 12 people close to him. And I think sometimes as pastors, we could be a little bit concerned about people in our church being close to us, that we will use distance almost as a protection method or sometimes as a manipulation method, because we've been hurt before. I don't want to let them get close again. But again, like I said last night, like, if I'm going to give, like this platform is important on Sunday, right? This is our primary method of export of the gospel, right? Matthew 28, 19. This is what we do. We keep going into the world on the internet, and I'm you and this person is helping me do it, right? They got 30 minutes of worship. I'm preaching for 40 minutes, right? I better know them, right? I better trust them, right? And while we may not be able to go everywhere together, we can be on our phones. I can be texting with you. I can call. I have a female worship leader who's amazing. I hate to gender base it, but I only said that in this context, we don't hang out alone together. I talk to her all the time. She has a great relationship with my wife. And there's so much trust there. And she doesn't just call me pastor because that's the role I occupy at church. She has allowed me to be her pastor. And it's a humbling thing, but it's because I decided like, look, this relationship is important. And, you know, I don't want to go too far, but like, you've been doing albums and serving in the church. So you got marketplace and ministry going at the same time. And was there ever any tension in the relationship with your pastor because you were doing albums and traveling? Not at all. Not at all. He released me to do and to be who God called me to be. And the thing about it is, my husband was telling a story the other day, and I had totally forgotten about this. I did my second recording at the church, at the cathedral. And after everything was over, he reminded me of this, that I got the vacuum cleaner. And I made and I vacuumed the carpet. (19:57 - 20:00) Wait, wait, wait. You did the recording. I did the recording. (20:00 - 20:11) And then you got the vacuum cleaner. That's right. Make sure that the church was in order so that, first of all, facilities didn't have to come and do anything unnecessary, but that the house was ready for worship on Sunday morning. (20:11 - 20:38) Wow. That's the heart. So, so, so it's not about being a star. It's about being a servant. And if Jesus could wash the feet of his disciples, I could get a vacuum cleaner and make sure that the stage was ready for ministry on Sunday morning. Yes. That's crazy. Wow. That's the part people don't see. And that's the part that I think connects people. You talked about when you took your guys out to breakfast. Was that your band? Yeah. (20:39 - 23:59) So like I did this study on the, on the word band and the word band, like when, when I think of band, it could be multiple things. So there's music, you know, there's a music band, but then there's also like rubber bands or like band-aids. And in every case that other context means a bond, something that holds something together. And I feel like the band is the husband house band. It's the same thing, but your band, your music team literally holds the sound together. And when you have an off stage bond with your band, you just said it, but like, what are ways that you would give people who maybe don't know how to start that process with their band? Like what would be some good points to say, Hey, this is how you can start to build with them. Maybe, maybe they're not open to breakfast, but what would you give them as a tip? Like this is how you should start building with. I would say communication. Communicate, communicate, communicate, over communicate. I mean, I know that set lists and rules and stuff. No, no, no, no, no, no. Hey, well that too, that too set list. I think, you know, I was in the last session, I was listening to Matt and you talk about set lists and how far out in advance do you have them? Well, you know, unfortunately for me, it's every week. I wish it was, I wish we had the, the, the latitude to be able to do it every month, but my guys are so, they are so in tune that they know I'm not going to give them anything. First of all, they trust me to the point that I'm not going to give them anything that they will not be able to handle within a week. Now I know sometimes that puts us in a bind. If there's something special, of course there's weeks out. We say, Hey, for Christmas, we already have our Christmas music. But there is a, a relationship that I'm not going to take their gift for granted. I'm not just going to throw something at them that has 15 key changes and, you know, and different tempos that they have to sit there and take at least a week or two to do that when that's Sunday morning. So, um, I think communication, communication, communication. Um, also I would say, um, just everyone understanding, uh, the level that we're at, you know, some people come in, uh, at a real world professional level and that's good. And we should always attain for that level of excellence, right? But everybody's not there. Right. Okay. So if you're not, if you're not here, we, we want to try to bring you up, but have patience with everybody as we're on that journey to get to the level of excellence. Jesus did that. He came down to be like us to bring us up to where we need to be. And so I think that, uh, when you're dealing with maybe musicians that are not as professional as you are, you know, but you always challenge them, challenge them to do their very best. And their very best may not be everything that you want it to be. I mean, think about when I was, um, with the international music department, I mean, I could choose any musician and know, Hey, I need you to go, go, go, go, go, go. Right. Um, it may not have always been that way in the local church. And so sometimes what happens and what frustrates many ministers of music and even pastors is they see like this wonderful, you know, the preaching masterclass, you see the musicians, they're on point. Everything, the sound is excellent. The musician, the singers know how to, you know, I saw, uh, Tanya put up her fingers for the three part. (24:00 - 24:13) Yes. And the song of the Lord that came forth, that doesn't happen in every church, but communicate that that's what you want to see happen and give them examples of how it can happen. And then watch it happen. (24:14 - 25:20) Do you feel like this generation is responding to coaching? And because what you're talking about with the way I language, that same concept is if you're not there yet, we can coach you up to it. Right. Right. But when I was younger, the ways we got coached up, like I would just accept criticism. Like you can say hard things to me. I didn't become who I am without someone telling me at some point, man, you're not doing that well. You got to do it better. And they didn't always say it that nice. Right. I'm saying I'm giving y'all a really nice version, but like, do you feel like this generation responds to coaching the way that our generation did? No, not the way that our generation did, but they are responding to it and we have to find a way to minister to them in the way that they can receive. I look at, you know, this season of my life, Aaron, I'm, I'm looking at David and David has been a, a, this kind of unifying rallying person in this preaching masterclass. I believe that if David had a mentor to tell him how to bring in the Ark of the Covenant, Uzzah would not have died. (25:23 - 25:55) All David knew was that the Ark came in on a cart because it came in from the Philistine. So here's something, don't, everything that you see is not necessarily something good just because it has the glory on it. Okay. Okay. Okay. The Philistine said, we've got to get this thing out of here. How do we get it out of here quick? Cause they all broke out with hemorrhoids and mice were running around. Right. And so they put it on a cart and they sent it. (25:55 - 30:00) They got away with it. They got away with it. So all David knew, this Ark is coming. So tell you what, let's just do that. He did not inquire of the Lord. And so our young people, this generation has got to inquire of those that have been there because that was not, of course we know that was not the proper way to bring the Ark of the Covenant in. And of course, Uzzah, he stepped out of line, but had David brought it in the right way, that would not have opened up. It would have not start falling off the cart. Yeah. There'd have been no cart for it to fall off of. There you go. When you talk about mentoring, I guess this question is for both of you. You said earlier, you know, you began to think about hymnals. We've got a generation that I think believes that worship started with Hillsong, Shout to the Lord. Like the ability to be able to say, I can call for it reaches or, you know, the classic hymns of the church. And how do you ensure that our next generation of worship leaders are understanding that they're not only standing on the shoulders of the generations that have come before them, but also there's a foundation in worship music that has gone before them and they need to have an understanding of it. I think the same way that we got it, I make sure it's in our set list. Hey, worship leaders. Hey, what hymn would work with that? Right. They don't even know it's cool until they're told that it's cool. And it becomes cool when it's included with what's cool. So like any set list that you influence, infuse, like take that as an opportunity to infuse. And like the thing I love about hymns is that they are the most universal, multi-ethnic way you can connect culture. Right. Because there are certain hymns that are more germane to African-American experience than others, but then most hymns, Amazing Grace is universal. Yes. And when you start singing those songs, these young folks that don't know where it came from will go to research. They'll go right to the ground. Where can I find this Amazing Grace song? And then realize, oh, this is a hymn. So it may not make them want to search every hymn, but it will at least embed that foundation in them. What do you think, Dr. McAllister? I'm listening to you. And I was just, you know, how our sister this morning talked about having that experience where she was there in the moment when she was calling something else. I grew up in a mainline classical Pentecostal church in New York City, Harlem. Okay. We did nothing but hymns. Five and six hymns a minute. There is not a hymn that I don't know. Yeah. Come on. Lexicon. I did not like it at the time, but now I find that in these moments, like what you did this morning with The Blood Will Never Lose Its Power, I'm finding that I'm taking these songs, these hymns that teach doctrine. Yes, they do. Because when I'm going through certain songs that don't come to my mind, like But a Mighty Fortress is Our God, Great is Thy Faith. It is well with my soul. Come on. Those songs resonate on the inside because they're already in. So, how do we teach this generation? I believe that if we get it in them, the Lord told me this about the song of the Lord, that when you pack yourself full of my word, in the moment, I will borrow from what's on the inside of you and bring it out. Yes. So, the quality goes in before the song comes out. Yes. Right? Yes. So, the hymns, I believe, can be connected to what is new and what is flashy now to still teach doctrine. I've been in some of my older songs, Aaron, you'll appreciate this, have been putting some of the hymns in some of the older songs so that it's like, oh, like you said, where can I find that? Yes. And I've heard them say that, to have that connectivity to our older saints and also those that are coming in, to be a bridge. (30:00 - 30:04) Yes. Because that's what worship really should do. It should connect all of us. (30:05 - 31:01) It's been clear that this year's Preaching Masterclass is a real strong intentionality to have worship leaders in the room, worship breakouts for instruction. If you were going to leave those that are listening to this podcast with one thing and say to them, speaking directly to them, worship leader, what would that be? One thing. There's a hymn, Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus. Look full in his wonderful face and the things of earth, these entrapments will grow strangely dim in the light of his glory and grace. That would be what I would say. Can't say it any better than that. (31:01 - 31:22) I just dropped the mic right there. Can't say it any better than that. Because I feel like the Bible says the revelation of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. All worship leaders want to be prophetic, but you have to have a revelation of who Jesus is and allow him to be revealed in and to you. And then I think it all goes to the next level. And it starts with turning your eyes. (31:24 - 31:51) You know, it has been my incredible pleasure to sit here for the last 30 minutes with the both of you. I don't sing on key. I don't clap on beat. I've got no musical gifting or talent. And to hear the both of y'all talk and have been influenced over these many years by your leading and your worship. It has been my honor. Thank you. My name is Pastor Adam D'Urso. My guest co-host, Aaron Lindsey, Dr. Judith McAllister. (31:51 - 32:32) Love you, Adam. Faithly Podcast, live from the Preaching Master class. We hope you are blessed. God bless you. Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories Podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey. The Faithly Stories Podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff, and volunteers. The Faithly digital platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection, foster collaboration, and promote growth within the church and ministry space. Remember to subscribe, rate, and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you. (32:32 - 32:44) Stay tuned for more uplifting tales from the front lines of ministry on the Faithly Podcast. Stay bold, stay faithful, and never underestimate the power of your own story.