A Special Burden - Craig Wilson

00:01 - Speaker 1
I've heard of a lot of special needs parents who have been asked to leave churches because their kids are not able to integrate into the ministry, and ministries don't know how to handle it or what to do, and so you know they're looking at it. I don't think their intent is to exclude, but they're looking at their entire ministry and the kids that they have and they just get to a point and go. We don't know how to handle this, and so families leave and they go to another church and another church and another church, and I carry a burden for that. Hi, my name is Craig Wilson. I am a 30-year veteran of children's and family ministry. I love pastoring kids and those who lead them, and this is my Faithly Story.

00:48 - Speaker 2
Welcome to Faithly Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life. Join us as we delve into their challenges, moments of encouragement and answered prayers. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. Learn more at faithlyco. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired as we unveil the heart of faith through stories from the front lines of ministry. On the Faithly Stories podcast.

01:29 - Speaker 3
Could you share your faith journey with us?

01:32 - Speaker 1
Yeah. So for me, I did not grow up in the church. I was a product of divorced family. Very young, early age, my mother was married twice and divorced twice, and so that meant a lot of moving around. And at fifth grade I moved to a different area, new geography, new town and, believe it or not, there was a friend of mine who's still a great friend today who at that young age had the wherewithal and understanding that he was supposed to fulfill the Great Commission, and one of his ways of doing that was just simply by inviting this new kid in his neighborhood to go to church with him.

02:09
And that was foreign to me. Outside of a couple of brief stints in a Catholic church, where I was just disappointed that I didn't get that yummy wafer they were passing out to everybody, I hadn't had much experience in church. And so I went, and I can remember vividly I literally spilt an entire communion tray of grape juice on white pants my first time at a church, and my friend thought, oh gosh, he's never coming back, you know. But what superseded that was such a profound sense, even at that age, of community and family that I was missing in my own family and it became a haven for me and that's where my faith journey started. And then, a couple of years later, up at a summer camp, with my friend who invited me, asking me if he wanted me to walk, if I wanted him to walk down with me to surrender my life to Jesus. Holy and um. And that's where that's where it began.

03:06
This was in fifth grade fifth grade yeah, fifth grade is when he invited me. Seventh grade, uh, was the camp. So from fifth grade I was attending the church fairly regularly, plugging into the community of a children's church there in middle school. And, um, it was middle school, seventh grade, that I gave my life fully over to the Lord at a Christian camp that we attended.

03:27 - Speaker 3
Yeah, what was your understanding for you to like want to give your life to Jesus? At seventh grade.

03:32 - Speaker 1
Yeah, I think, like I mentioned before, that deep sense of family and community and relationship was an important starting point for me was an important starting point for me and um, but that alone isn't enough, right, Cause you can find some good community and other other places and clubs and organizations.

03:53
Um, but what that was for me at that time and the leaders, the leaders that we had, who had a deep sense of care for my being, how I was doing, who I was becoming, we were fortunate at that church to have the same leaders travel with us from, many of them from junior high, stay with the group of kids all the way till we graduated, I think, there. I think I had the same ones through middle school and then a set of new ones at high school level, and those ones stayed with us to four years. You know that was very impressionable upon me. But of course, out of that then came conversations about faith and who Jesus was and me as a sinner and my need to surrender to him. So for me it made sense, you know, and I think for me also at that age, lacking a father figure in my life, you know God as father was fairly impactful on me as well.

04:51 - Speaker 3
Yeah, a theme that's been reoccurring in these podcasts is like stability either in the home or in the church, and you need at least one, but if you don't have either, that's kind of a disaster, ideally you'd want both, yeah, yeah have either. That's kind of a disaster. Ideally, you'd want both. Were you able to process what was happening with, like, your mom and the relationships, and also like, did you have a relationship with your dad or was he just out of?

05:14 - Speaker 1
it. No, my dad, like I said, my mom was married twice, divorced twice, when I was a young age. So my real father was out of my life by maybe two years old, you know which. I wouldn't have much memory or recollection of him. I kind of have like a faint memory of seeing him at like first or second grade, and then for a weekend in seventh grade, and then that that was it, so, just completely absent. And then you know my stepfather. I have memories of him and my time that my mother was married to him, but I would say he was out of my life after that marriage ended as well.

05:48
So so I really I really didn't, you know, um, and so within the church, uh, youth group and the, the godly men who did have families, were the ones that I spent most of my time there and you know they included me in father son activities and they were checking in on me when I was goofing around in school and deciding I didn't want to go to school and and you know they kind of take me to lunch and be that fatherly figure, even the tough part of like, hey Craig, what are you doing? You know, you gotta, you gotta be better than that you can do this, you know. So I had a lot of support surrogately from the men that were involved in the youth group there, which was was phenomenal, amazing um, did you ever talk to your mom about all that?

06:32 - Speaker 3
because for me, um, my parents divorced but I was like way older. But I remember when I was younger I would just ask my mom, like how did you guys even meet? And like, why are you guys together? And like the joke between me and her was like god only brought them together to have me right.

06:47
You know it's a narcissistic viewpoint, but for you, like and it took a really long time for me to forgive my mom and I know that sounds like to some people like ridiculous, but like I harbored this thing of like, I kind of blamed her, um, not because of what my dad did, but just for staying with him. So like for you, like I can't even imagine what that's like and how would you even approach the conversation.

07:12 - Speaker 1
Yeah, you know, daniel, it's interesting. I think every journey is different and every person's journey in that situation is different. I will say this to paint kind of a parallel experience so my good friend, the one who invited me to church, also was in a single mother household and so for me, with my father out of my life early on, I would see kind of you don't know what you don't know. And so when people say, well, did you miss that? Do you know? Did you desire that relationship? Well, I didn't know what a relationship with the father was like because I didn't experience. So there was no loss of that, you know, and I think that early on, because I had, when it was crucial, I think when you hit that preteen and middle school, you know where life becomes, you know you start turning to peer pressure and you know things start to unravel a little bit. Having those key mentor figures in your life is important and I had that so cut to my friend whose dad. You know they were divorced but his dad was kind of in and out of his life and I watched the tension and turmoil of that because his dad was constantly making promises that he didn't follow through on and didn't keep and and the mind games and tension between the mom and the dad that created more, I believe, emotional damage and and difficulty in his life. And so I look at my situation and I feel it was. It was better and even older.

08:33
You know, people would ask and even my wife would ask you know, do you think you'll go look for your father? Your father will come looking for you at any time. And I didn't have a, I didn't have a desire to do that because, um cause I didn't have a desire to do that? Because I didn't have a relationship with them, this life form that you have, this just unbelievable love for and unconditional love for. You have these questions of like gosh, how could somebody just abandon family, know they have a son and a daughter out there and not have any contact? And there could be a million reasons for it. I think later in my life it wasn't until later in my life, when I was an adult I was able to have those conversations with my mom about their relationship and you find out a lot of it.

09:31
You know he was alcoholic and couldn't function in life and so at that point I the forgiveness is, I can deal with knowing that as an alcoholic he couldn't function normally, process normally, grieve normally. In the way to understand that, you know, I could have a sense of okay, it's the disease and the issue of alcoholism. So there's a level of I didn't, I didn't have a sense that I had to forgive him. You know, for things, I just had that wonderment of like you know, gosh, how could somebody know I got having my own kid? I couldn't imagine that. But my journey and my path is different. So, yeah, so I think for me, again, you don't know what you don't know. So, not having that father figure in my life, I didn't grieve the loss of something that I never had. But I had an incredible community in my church. There was one man in particular that at my wedding I gave him the seat of honor where my father would sit for my wedding because of his impact on my life.

10:37 - Speaker 3
Thank you for that. That's actually a very refreshing perspective that I didn't even have insight to. So how did you get into pastoring?

10:45 - Speaker 1
Yeah, I was kind of I think kind of like Jonah, trying to run away from it a bit. I growing up, my plans for life were entertainment industry. I was pretty much interested in self-glorification of I want to be famous, I want to be actor, singer, something in the spotlight. And I followed after those dreams and those things. And the church I was at was, back in the day, heavily involved in a lot of arts and entertainment stuff. They would do a lot of theater in the community at the church for the community, broadway shows and things like that. So I was fortunate to be around arts and entertainment, even within the church context. And so at about gosh, I think at about 20 years old, I was pretty much just going to community college and taking mostly acting and music classes.

11:37
And our music director at the time said hey, I'm starting a kids program on Sunday nights and it's going to be kind of like think Mickey mouse club, but with Bible based lessons. In it. There's going to be dancing, singing, acting, funny characters, all of that stuff. And he asked me to do it and I really had no interest, I had no interest in working with kids. And he came back and asked me another time, said I really need guys. I have a lot of girls interested and need some more guys. I think I told him no, three, four times, you know. And then he finally just begged and pleaded and I said, okay, I'll do it as a favor to you. And I got into it and, oh my gosh, I was just, I was hooked. It was very revealing for me that was.

12:22
I say I'm called to be a children's pastor. Very revealing for me. I say I'm called to be a children's pastor and I get weird looks about that sometimes. So I'm 54, and I still feel effective in children's ministry and people say, oh, are you going to bump up to family pastor? Are you going to bump up to lead pastor someday? And I don't believe that's my calling. And so doing that it was like this culmination of God taking everything that I was passionate about and the things that I was talented in and he was showing me a better purpose for them, just coming and wrapping her arms around me. I I was. I used to sometimes get emotional, so thinking about this cause. It's just so vivid, you know, all these years later, but wrapping her arms around me and saying thank you for making learning about Jesus so much fun and it was just, it was just like boom, that's it, that's it.

13:18
And so I was doing that program and then, a few months into it, the director who was doing all the creative elements of it had moved out of state, and so the children's pastor there asked me if I would take that over and I started an internship. I didn't go to school, I didn't go to Bible call. I went to Bible college later and would take some courses and things, but it wasn't my plan. But I was mentored by him for six years, which was the best experience, because I had the freedom to risk and fail with a safety net.

13:52
And a lot of leaders today get into ministry without a safety net and they get burned once or twice and then they're done and they're out. And so I had an incredible safety net to risk and fail and have somebody take the heat when I would mess up and and pick me back up and put me back into the arena to keep going at it. And so, and after about six years and I was, you know, handed the keys um, hey, this is your ministry now. And um, so, and here here I am still engaged in children's and family ministry all these years later.

14:26 - Speaker 3
Yeah, like when I applied for the children's role at my most previous church. I had no interest, but it was like the only thing. So I was just like applying everywhere and then when I got it, yeah, there were just rough moments, but overall, looking back, children's is a lot of fun, because that's all they care about having fun. But if you can make the gospel fun and Jesus fun, yeah, it was the best ministry years of my life. I can honestly say?

14:56 - Speaker 1
I would say what's the first question usually a parent asks when they pick up their kid from church Did you have fun today?

15:02 - Speaker 3
When they pick up.

15:05 - Speaker 1
When a parent picks up a kid from church, the first question they ask usually is did you have fun today? It's not. You know, occasionally you'll get the parent and go what did you learn today? Tell me the Bible verse you memorized today. But usually the first question is did you have fun today? Why fun is fun as a value. Are we teaching the Bible? Of course we are, but it needs to be fun. You know adults, they're not coming If you don't have donuts and coffee, starbucks coffee, out in the lobby. You know that's their fun, right, kids? Kids aren't coming if it's not fun you know, so it needs to be fun.

15:35 - Speaker 3
No, but that's kind of a shame, because something I've been like really learning more and more recently is like the childlike heartness, right, but also we can also have a childlikeness in the mind, which is just curiosity and, like, children are always curious and I'm curious. Where along the way for us as christians, we lose that and then we get so caught up in like this is right, this is wrong, this is what I know, and then we start debating about what we know rather than like oh, how can you take that?

16:02
and use your imagination to see, like the goodness of god? Do you know what? What I mean?

16:07 - Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, I agree, I think you know, sometimes we just, yeah, somewhere along the line we overcomplicate things, you know. I don't know if we adultize them as a word, but if it isn't, I just made a new word adultize, hashtag. Adultize get the website going, you know. But we do and and I think that there's a need to come to Jesus with that childlike faith and I think even within that is that fun. I you know, when you think about like, I think about like Pixar movies and cartoons, and what's great about those is there's it kind of blends this line between you know, it still captures. It captures kids, but it still captures the adult heart, it has a sensibility and I think there's a place for that in in church ministry.

16:53
I think there's a place to simplify. You know we do a, we do a baptism class for lack of better word for our kids, when we're teaching them about why we get baptized. And it's always for us. A family class is designed for parents to come with kids so we can help equip them and resource them and make them part of the process. And I'd say, over 30 plus years of doing children's ministry, I'd be willing to guess we've baptized just as many adults, as we have kids through that class, because we've explained it in such a simple way and there's been a good number of parents sitting there who hadn't been baptized and just because it was explained in such a simple, fun, but meaningful and powerful way that a lot of parents just went oh, I guess I should probably do that. Why haven't I done that yet, you know? And so I think, yeah, there's definitely a place to come into our faith with the childlikeness, like you're saying.

17:48 - Speaker 3
So how do you, based on your experience, integrate parents getting involved? Because one issue I always had was they treat children's ministry like it's a babysitting service, so they'll drop off the kids, they'll disappear, they'll come back, but they'll never connect or ask questions. And I'm just curious as to like, yeah, how do you integrate that?

18:09 - Speaker 1
Yeah, I think you know, for all the years of you know you have, you know, the orange philosophy, you know came into being with, you know, rethink group and they do a phenomenal job with a strategy and vision for that. Churches overall in the last couple of decades are pushing more of this. You know. Idea of family ministry how do we come alongside parents, equip and resource them to be the primary, uh, the primary role in their family? And I still think it's a challenge, I still think that we're struggling to do it. And um, and I think there's a, you're going to get so many different opinions and strategies and mission and vision around this. You know you have a lot now that say we quit pulling the kids out of church and do church together all the time and more, or at least have them in for worship together and then split out. And then you have others who say, well, no, there's still value in splitting out because we can talk to kids in their language and pastor them in a unique way. And you know, and even you see some healthy amount of infighting about that and that's always good discussion and even a little bit of healthy arguing helps us get better at things.

19:23
So I don't, I don't know that. I wouldn't come and say, gosh, I've solved that. And it's amazing. I have these amazing, incredible engaged parents and families, because you have, every family is different, right. I mean, take me, who's a single kid in a family that had no faith and wasn't going to church? So I can't, if I have that kid in my ministry, I can't just say, well, your mom is your primary, your mom and dad are your primary spiritual role model, because they're not. And then you have the mom and dad who are in church and maybe the mom is really on fire and dad is, I, you know, just kind of not really engaged and not walking, and that, I would say, Daniel, is probably more prevalent than a lot of other family situations. That's, our dads are really just not stepping into leading their family, their wives and their children spiritually. And so if there's a group of people to really pour into and target, I think it's men.

20:26
And then it can't just come from the children's ministry department, it has to be a value and part of the DNA of the entire church ministry. And so now that's going to be a struggle or an effective joy, depending on the church and ministry you're in. There's a lot of times in church ministry we get siloed. You know, working in all these ministries and even some like well, my ministry is most important and mine's most. Well, how come I don't get enough attention here and this ministry has more budget and this ministry what that does is tends to isolate us.

20:59
And I, one of my pastors, used this illustration and probably, you know, he probably lifted it off of somewhere else, or maybe it was his own original thought. I don't know where it originated from, but he was sharing with our staff. He said, you know, sometimes we have our own ministry and you think of it as a train and I have, like my car my car is pretty unique Children's ministry and then men's ministry, women's ministry, worship ministry. He says, and that's okay. He says the problem is is that we're also on our own individual train tracks. We're all going the same place, but we're getting there on our own track and so sometimes it's we're getting ahead or behind somebody and he says what I want us to do is pull all of our individual cars onto the one track, and that way we're pushing and pulling each other toward the same destination. Because even sometimes then, hey, this one car is dragging a little but that's okay, because the two cars behind it are pushing it and the two in front of it are pulling it, and then another time that car that was struggling six months ago is now driving hard and pushing the car that's slower in front of it.

22:02
And I think that's a good picture of how we need to do that, because something that big with family ministry and getting men engaged, is going to take the entire church. It's going to take the youth ministry and the men's ministry and the preaching from the pulpit and the children's ministry to all believe it's important. So every family situation is different, and so I think that's why it's hard, but we can't throw our hands up and say, well, it's just not working, so let's not bother and let's just do children's ministry. I have to provide the resources, I have to encourage parents, I have to equip them, I have to pray for them and with them, and I have to think about the kid whose parents aren't there, and so it's a challenge, but it's one worth us digging our heels in and keep grinding at it.

22:47 - Speaker 3
I'm definitely going to steal that train analogy. That's really good.

22:52 - Speaker 1
That's one that's been with me for a long time and I carry it with me everywhere I go, because I think it is a good analogy for that. And so, yeah, it's going to take every ministry for the big things that are important and for us to stop looking at. You know what we need to celebrate.

23:12 - Speaker 3
Yeah, I want to trade notes with you now, so like what's been the hardest thing for you in children's ministry.

23:21 - Speaker 1
I think so post-COVID volunteer leader engagement has definitely been down, but overall church engagement, I think that we hit a point about a year ago that it's kind of like all right. I feel like this is just my observation, my experience. We were kind of all watching fall 2021 to see what was going to happen. 2021 to see what was going to happen, because fall 2020, we thought we were coming out of the bend with COVID and then all of a sudden kind of resurged in areas where, depending on where you live, counties shut back down and schools shut back down, and so when 2021 came, I think there was like this hesitancy of people returning, at least in the ministry areas that I were in, and they were watching what was going to happen with the fall. And then it seemed like okay, it feels like we're out of the woods or for whatever reasons. Wherever you stand on COVID, it just seemed like all of a sudden there was a big number of people back, but there was a big number of people back but not engaged in serving or we lost some of those people, and so now you had this crowd back, but you didn't have the infrastructure to minister effectively in your children's areas, at least that's one of the things I experienced. So that's been a challenge and kind of trying to catch people up with training and discipling and vision casting. You know, get some new people, that you're trying to get fast-tracked, and so I think that maybe where you had a system, if you had a system in place where like, oh, you can't serve until you've been around the church for six months and then you're going to go through a discipleship process and training process a little bit, and some ministries are just like are you breathing? You have a pulse, you love Jesus? We did a background check, you're good there, let's go, you know. And so I think that's been hard for some is getting back to that, you know, and where you feel like, okay, we're equipped to to handle the crowds that are coming back in as people are re-engaging. So that's been one thing there.

25:18
I think another challenge has been. Another challenge has been just the change in kid demographics in regards to special needs and special needs, especially around the area of like behavioral challenges. You know, I don't, I don't, I hate, I always hate statistics because you know they're usually wrong. You know, I could probably and I probably am the same guy who would say, oh, one in six, and the next time I say it one in four and then one in eight. But the rise of kids who are experiencing behavioral challenges or you know, you have kids on the special needs spectrum is so broad, right, so broad, and so it requires so many different, I believe, levels of expertise on how do we train and how do we, how do we lead these kids well, and so I think that that's a that's a growing challenge and I feel like a lot of churches are starting to do more with that.

26:17
But there's some. Some of the challenges are where you have that may need a one-on-one assistant, one-on-one leader, one-on-one buddy. However, you want to call that to be able to be included into your regular children's ministry programming, which is we always say we want what's best, what the parent wants and working with the kid and what's best for them. You have some kids that would just go to a special needs room environment and some that can be functional within your regular ministry on a Sunday morning, but they might require an assistant. So now, when you're trying to find a leader for you know, every six to eight kids and now you need, you might have four or five kids in your ministry that need a one-on-one buddy.

26:59
So casting that vision training, kind of debunking what people think about special needs and oh, I couldn't do that about special needs and I couldn't do that, you know, and I don't understand that I'm training for that. I think that's a challenge in today's children's ministry and probably one that's gonna keep growing. But you know there's a deep burden to minister to every child, you know. And so how do we do that? What does that look like? And it's gonna require changing and approaches to things and may require expertise and kinds of staffing. You know a lot of children's ministry people we don't have that kind of training and that kind of expertise, even putting their money where their mouth is and saying we're going to hire somebody with special needs expertise, because there's a lot of families out there that are that's their life and the joys of it and the struggles of it. And how do we come alongside them and give them a home?

27:58
I've heard of a lot of special needs parents who have been asked to leave churches because their kids are not able to integrate into the ministry and the ministries don't know how to handle it or what to do. And so you know they looking at it. I don't think their intent is to exclude, but they're looking at their entire ministry and the kids that they have and they just get to a point and go. We don't know how to handle this. And so families are leaving and they go to another church and another church and another church and, uh, man, I carry, I carry a burden for that. You know, this family, the divorce rate among special needs families is high. They're on an island. They don't have, you know, resources and the support that they need. You know, and I feel like we, if we can come alongside them and do the best we can, I say, do the best you can with the resources you have, and you might not be able to do everything, but what can you do? To what point?

28:53 - Speaker 3
Do you have any advice, then, for people who don't have the resources? Where can they go to even seek out answers?

29:02 - Speaker 1
Yeah, one is called Key Ministry K-E-Y like a key keyministryorg has a lot of free resources and training and videos and I think you can even bring some people out if you wanted to put some money into, bring some experts out to do some training. But they have a lot of resources and a Facebook group page. And early on when I came to ministry in Colorado and this was, you know, 12, 13 years ago, prior to me getting there there had been a special needs ministry that was run by a volunteer who was running it as if she was getting paid like a hundred grand a year. I mean, she was just going all out and people with special needs families were driving two hours to come because they had a place for their kids to belong. She was doing respite nights on, like Friday nights, where parents could drop their kids off and go have a date night and stare at each other, because special needs parents, you know, don't get to do that a lot. She was even running special parties for siblings of special needs kids, because siblings of special needs kids lose a lot of attention because of the extra attention it requires for their sibling. And I was just running this amazing thing.

30:14
But before I got to that ministry she had had to move across the country because of her husband's job and so that ministry just shrunk down to a very dedicated group of people who had a huge heart for it. So I had no experience in it. I had this group of people who had a heart and a passion for it. Could we do what that woman was doing? Nope, but could we do something? Yes. So I say, start, start somewhere, you know, do what you can try and come alongside a parent that's been asked to leave a church two or three times sometimes. They just want to. They want to sit down with you and be heard and know that I can't make promises like that. We can work this out, you know, but I can promise that we will do everything within the resources we have to try and provide spiritual care for your child and for you guys. I think just saying that sometimes goes a long way.

31:07
I remember a family like that that came their kid had, was prone to acting out with violence and had some behavioral challenges and they came to our church the first time and they didn't. They didn't tell anybody, they just wanted to. I hope it goes well, cause they've been asked to leave three or four churches and on that first day that kid was there. He was pre-teenage, fourth and fifth grade. He had gotten a kid down on the ground and was kicking that kid and so when the parents came to pick him up, my director who's an amazing director came and talked to the parents and as soon as she started talking to the parents, you could just see their countenance drop and you could just feel it.

31:49
Probably everything in them was saying we're at, we're going to be asked to leave. And my director said, hey, we're sorry that this happened today. Is there anything we can know that would help us create an environment where I can't remember the kid's name is? Just say, johnny can be here. And oh my gosh, the relief. And that mom just bawling because someone was just saying I'm willing, weren't promising, but what can we do?

32:16
And you know, and there's sometimes in situations where you go, we've exhausted everything we can, we've tried to buddy and there's still issue.

32:22
We've had you guys join class and there comes sometimes where you have to say and we have to think about everybody and we don't have the resources to do this, but is you know, all right, if we can't do this, can we do this, you know, and I think just that effort, you know, goes a long way. I used to tell our special needs parents that would leave. I go. I say hey, you know what, if you guys haven't been able to be on a date together in a while, I go, ditching church and going to brunch and staring at each other for two hours might be the best worship for you this morning. So if you want to do that, just let us know that's where you'll be so we can get a hold of you. And I think just that commitment to say we care goes a long way and then do what you can. I'm in a small church. Now, again, I don't have the resources for a large special needs ministry, I don't have a director, but there's something we can do to to help out.

33:16 - Speaker 3
I'm so glad you said all of that, because I feel like we give up too easily and God really just cares if we have a willing heart, right and a spirit that just says, hey, it doesn't matter if we failed a hundred times.

33:31
We trust in a God that provides, and so we're going to keep trying, just so that, like people understand that they're loved even when things go crazy you know, and I think families appreciate that, and even what you said about like skipping church and like going on a brunch, that's like sounds so blasphemous, but I realize if, deep down in your heart, you can honestly say, because of what I've just experienced, it's worth it. And it's worth it because it helps me understand the goodness of god. That's worship, right, yeah, yeah, you can go to a church and sing all the songs but still kind of feel empty. Right, because you weren't connecting. Or you can have this like magnificent spiritual experience on mushrooms Right, but it involves no other people, other people. Right, it's just this. Like it's just me and God is like.

34:20
No, that's not how Christianity works. It's like it's all of us. You know, yeah, and something that I learned, you know, in the past, is that, no matter how big the problem is, if you have enough people willing to work together, you can always come up with a solution. And, like you were saying, like the problem happens when I feel like I have to be the one that finds that the ultimate solution or the silver bullet, rather than okay, what can we all do to contribute a little bit to make this thing work? And that's when the magic happens.

34:54 - Speaker 1
Yeah, you don't know who's sitting in your church right now, that's never once thought about helping with special needs. But you presented a simple, low bar opportunity and they jumped in and, just like God, captured my heart and passion for kids ministry. Somebody might just light somebody on fire for special needs and they might take that ministry to another level. That person could be sitting in your ministry right now, you know. And so, yeah, start, start somewhere and then let let God draw the people to it. And the church I'm at right now has an incredible ministry to special needs adults, and so they have that value and there's been some people that have had a heart for that. But what's missing there is some support for special needs kids. So interesting, but that's kind of where God has called them for these years. All right, well, gosh, we have this. How great would it be if we can start building special needs ministry from the young age and then if they're part of our church through the whole church. Because that's what happens a lot of times too, is that special needs gets relegated to children's ministry and then junior high hits and your youth ministry is not doing anything about it and or you know. So there's not that team approach and team effort, and so that's another one of those things. How do we get everybody on the same? If we care about special needs families, we care about them from from birth to adulthood, you know, and what does that look like, and so and there there's lots of things you can do.

36:19
We used to have a guy come to our church who has special needs daughter and he's a financial planner, retired one, so he's not doing it to get your business, but he comes and does free seminars for special needs families on how to plan financially, because it's different. And what happens if you both you and your wife die? What happens if your kid needs full-time care? Can't you know? You know, again, the spectrum is so different. If they kids are functional and can work and have their own apartment, independent, some need to be in home and community with others.

36:49
And he would just come, we, we would do that seminar, daniel, and there'd be a hundred people there and maybe only 20 of them were from our church and he's just telling them all this stuff they don't know about. You need to start with your county because there's money available to you, and if you? But you got to start it at 10 years old, so you get it by the time he's 18 and their jaws are just dropping. Well, there was an incredible outreach opportunity for people in your community to know that there's a church that cares about my family. Why would you do this seminar for free and helping us with that? There's so many opportunities there and so um allow God to, to allow the people in your church to dream of how they could help, because it's not always how we think you know is the best way to do it.

37:30 - Speaker 3
Other people have different ideas that god's giving them on how to best minister to groups of people the beauty of family is that when one person is affected, the whole family is affected Right and oftentimes in the Western world we're so like surgical of like oh, it just helped the kid, but like no, you don't realize.

37:48
Helping the kid helps a family, right. But if you get the family involved with the whole like CPA thing too, yeah, offering services just so that the entire family is involved and they understand there's a support system yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, I never really thought of it that way too. So I'm not saying all of this because I knew it. I'm just like, oh, like everything you're saying is like God, is like putting all the Lego pieces and like family. How did your childhood growing up affect you as a father?

38:18 - Speaker 1
Yeah Well, I think I alluded to it a little bit earlier in the sense that, like you know, having not having a father figure in my life you know that was my blood father but having you know mentors and people in my life helped shape who I am. But I think also, just knowing having that later in life sense of, like you know, that wonderment of how somebody could leave you know kids behind, you know it changes your perspective on how you, you know how you look at your own kids and your engagement level. And you know it's a challenge for everybody Time. Time is the biggest challenge for all of us and ministry is challenging. Ministry is time eating.

39:02
How do you, how do you, as a father whose job is to essentially play with kids, you know I'm tired of playing with kids. I'm too tired to come home and play with my own kids. I've man, I had those moments. You know where I I've. You know I used to run a Wednesday night program with back in the days when midweek was thriving. I know it's still thriving for some churches, but in the demographics that I've ministered to, sports rule, you know. And so midweek kids aren't at church anymore, they're on the sports field. But back in the day we had a preteen ministry of fifth and sixth grade kids and we ran up to 150 kids, sometimes on a Wednesday night, fifth and sixth graders, and you know it was amazing, but it's like sucked everything out of me, you know. And then you get home and you, just, you just want to like, ah, la, la, la la, you know, you, just, you don't want any questions, you don't want any because you just need to kind of just unwind from that and I'm extreme extrovert. But when I get it all out, then I just need to kind of retreat and I introvert. And so, yeah, you know, coming home and then like not having, um, not having energy, you know, for your own kids, oh, that's a terrible thing, you know. So, like, all parents and dads do that, moms do that, they're working, and sometimes you got to dig deep because it is, it is fast, you know they all the things they told you are true, you blink and they grown up.

40:27
I have a 25 year old and a 21 year old, you know, and, gosh, I can look back and beat myself up, you know, about some times where I go, I would, I, man, I wish I would have, just, you know, engaged a little more here, engaged a little more here.

40:44
So I do a lot of speaking for camps, kids camps, and I always tried to take at least one kid with me if I went away so that I wasn't just away from family. And my kids have some great memories of, you know, being at camp and then that's almost like they're getting free camp, you know they get to engage and play, and the church leaders, the camp you know they get to engage in, play and the church leaders, the camp leaders would always, you know, just let them be a camper. You know the weeks are there, so they had that spiritual influence and impact, but they were with me and got to see what their dad was doing, you know. So that was important. So I've had, I've had the freedom to do those kinds of things. But ministry, you know, does have its challenges, depending on the ministry environment you're in, how much you're working and how much you can be away from family.

41:26 - Speaker 3
Yeah, there's a saying the days are long but the years are short, and that's so true as you get older.

41:33 - Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah for sure. Yeah, we're all a product of our experiences, you know, and I am. You know, I have friends say all of us are smarter than one of us and, like I am gosh, I am a product of the people that I've been under. I've been just very fortunate to work under mentors and leaders and, like I, everything I'm talking about is just from experiences that I got to be in part of and and and sure, within that I able to add, I think, how God has gifted me and wired me.

42:06
But it doesn't start with me. I know there are people there's great, I have an entrepreneurial heart, but there's some people that God gifts to just sit and create from nothing, and I just am so much better for me when somebody spits something out and then I go oh, you know, and can work from that and build upon that, and so that's, I'm a product of that. I'm a product of the mentoring and the coaching and the people pouring into me, and so my favorite thing is to All right, how do I, especially now I'm 54, you know 30 plus years in ministry, 54, you know 30 plus years in ministry, and this season, what God is showing me, I believe, and what is God is opening the doors. For me to do is to pour that back into other leaders who are newer and growing, and even at 54, I and I talked to you know, I talked to young children's ministry people that maybe came to me for some advice, and I'm just sitting there writing down everything they're saying and I'm like this is brilliant, this is amazing. Hey, you're gosh, you know.

43:07
So it's. It's learning from each other, you know, and pouring into each other. That's what story does. That's what community does. So my experiences are what has shaped me. It's, it's not. I don't consider myself a prolific leader. I consider myself being fortunate to be in the environments that I've been in and rub shoulders with the people that God's allowed me to rub shoulders with.

43:27 - Speaker 3
What is the fondest memory you have from childhood?

43:30 - Speaker 1
Oh gosh, fondest memory from childhood? That's an interesting question, even like you know, I have. You know we're going through the old buckets of pictures and things like that and realize that there's really not even any pictures of me younger than like fourth or fifth grade, you know. So I think my fondest from childhood are my family was fairly small because of just the divorce and just having one side, so some of my fondest memories were times at my grandmother's house because my mom was a single mom, so I spent a lot of time there, uh, in her kitchen.

44:04
Um, there's just there's things. There's things that are so tangible to me today, like my grandmother, the only soda she would ever have is a squirt soda, right, and if to this day I could open a can of that and just the smell and the taste will put me in her living room. You know, squirt, it's just a soda, it's a. You can still buy it. It's a, it's like a citrus soda, but it's like, it's like an unusual soda, right.

44:31
Usually you want root beer or Dr Pepper or Coke, but that's the only one my grandmother had and it wasn't great. But if I wanted something sweet and sugary, it was the only one I was going to have. And so to this day I crack a can of that and it will put me in my grandmother's living room because we played cards and she baked with us and we just had that time and same with my great uncle. He just had all these. He's traveled the world and so he had all these unusual collectible items and things like that. That was very fascinating to me to spend that time with him as a child. So those are. Some of my fondest memories were of our small kind of tight knit family that you know. No big trips or no big vacations or anything like that, just that time in the homes of my family members.

45:14 - Speaker 3
What's the?

45:14 - Speaker 1
best advice you've ever received? Oh, the best advice I've ever received. Maybe I haven't got it yet.

45:20 - Speaker 3
But the best so far. That was really helpful to you.

45:23 - Speaker 1
I'll give you one related to ministry. And ministry is hard. It's hard now. The environments in ministry, the kind of leaders we have, some environments can be tough places to work. There's a lot of people burning out, leaving ministry and they're hurt and and I've been kicked in the teeth a few times and I remember leaving a church where I had some real hurt from leadership and I was there, was even just there was just things that were happening there that I just, you know my, my young, I reverted to my young punk rock self and just wanted to burn it all down.

45:58
And my coach, leadership coach and mentor at the time, he said it's, he said it's your job to protect the bride of Christ on your way out of here. And and every it went against everything in my being at that time. And he said, craig, he says I know you're hurt, you're even just in what you want to do, but he says your job is to protect the bride on your way out. And that was some of the best ministry advice I ever had and um, that sticks with me and I I try and impart that on people when they're leaving a tough situation where, even if in your heart you're right and you're just and you've been wronged. Protect the bride on your way out.

46:42 - Speaker 3
That's so good.

46:43 - Speaker 2
I'm going to take that.

46:47 - Speaker 3
That might be one of the best answers.

46:48 - Speaker 1
I've heard it's not easy. It is not easy, but it's right.

46:54 - Speaker 3
It's just like real marriage. It's going to be hard, but if you don't have battle scars, like did you ever grow?

47:01 - Speaker 1
You know, yeah, so yeah, you, always in hindsight we'll see, even in a tough situation, even in a valley, even, that you know how God grew you. It doesn't come to later usually. And then sometimes there's even some amends you might have to make and some olive branches that you probably have to extend. You know, but allow yourself and you will grow. But on your way out, um, protect the bride and the people in that congregation.

47:29 - Speaker 3
So that's why forgiveness and reconciliation is such a wild idea and so counterintuitive to the world, because it's the only thing that continues to keep people together, if they forgive and reconcile and it's just anyway, that's another rant I don't get into.

47:45
I I'm just like you, like I always thought I don't have an original idea, I'm not creative, I need other sources. But I realized no one has an original idea because we're all sponging, right, and so this is why words and stories are powerful, because it sparks like some memory or imagination and yeah, I just really believe like that just God is showing us like his mind, you know, in the Trinity. Anyway, that's just another thing.

48:12 - Speaker 1
Final, two questions Yep.

48:14 - Speaker 3
What are you hoping for at Faithly yeah?

48:17 - Speaker 1
I'm hoping for. You know, look, there's a lot of resources out, there's a lot of networks and I go to different ones for different things. I might go to this Facebook page because I can easily ask a question about like, hey, who has a great idea for first grade boys? To blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I'll get you know 20 people to give me ideas for free. Five that are trying to sell me their stuff to do it, two that are just watching to see what everybody else says. And so I have a place and I'm not knocking that. I might've sounded a little snarky when I said that and I didn't mean that I have those resources to go to and I even I have resources that I sell and give out to people, but I think, for Faithly, what I think may feel different is the community aspect of it and to try and dive beyond just a resource mentality and site into relationship and, like you say, story and iron, sharpening iron. When I got on I was just, you know, looking around and I got into your groups. You know I am in the season, daniel, of where I feel God's calling me to.

49:25
I still want to be active in in church ministry. I currently have a. I'm at a friend's church helping him out and I'm doing that part-time. While I am trying to, I'm coming on board with an organization called Standing Stone Ministry. I'm coming on board with an organization called Standing Stone Ministry that's primary role is to shepherd pastors that have been through stuff and going through difficult times and giving them that place to do that. And I have a heart to do that for children's ministry people and family people, because I think they're underserved. There's always a sabbatical for a lead pastor and associate pastor and a worship pastor and sometimes even a youth pastor. There's always a conference, there's always resources and send them out and I see a lot of children's pastors having to pay for that themselves if they want it or they can't afford it. And so with Standing Stone I will be supported like a missionary. I'll raise my support so that I can go to a children's ministry person and say are you struggling, are you going through some tough things in your ministry with leadership and stuff? I can come alongside you and meet with you for a time and help walk you through some things.

50:30
For the experiences that I've had and I want to do that specifically for children's ministry and family ministry people, and so I think, even faithfully, can just even be an extension of that to gather like-minded people who are in that area of ministry. And just hey, how do we and again, it's not about oh hey, come to Craig, I've got so much experience. I'm amazing. You just sit and let me just stand on my pedestal and impart wisdom to you. It's not that at all. It's it's this, shared from across the table or across a zoom camera, what we're all going through. And then I just believe that God will the people that he gathers to you through whatever means, faithfully a Facebook page, a conference, whatever reason he's brought you together then sitting across from each other and sharing those experiences can bring wisdom, can bring healing, can bring greater impact in the kingdom.

51:27
And so I look at faithfully and I set up a couple of different groups. I think I set up one I haven't had. I'm extremely busy right now. As soon as I'm out of these holiday funk and holiday hangover from ministry stuff, I can start engaging that. But I think I titled one level up.

51:45
And how do we help each other level up our ministry? I did one. I created a group for preteen ministry specifically, cause I have a huge heart for that, and so I just hope it just gathers a handful of people that we can just all right, hey, what's working for you, what's what's challenging you, what are you struggling with, you know? And um, that's just kind of the season that I'm in. I've been fortunate to feel called to children's ministry. There's some other guys like me in my networks that are lifers that this is their calling and they don't plan to go anywhere else, and so God has given us the opportunity to see a lot of changes in the 30 years of children's ministry, and if that helps somebody that's been at it for a long time or somebody that's new at it, then great. And then I also know I have the opportunity to learn something else from somebody else as well.

52:35 - Speaker 3
Yeah, that's awesome. Thanks, that's exactly why we're creating it. Yeah, yeah, we'll talk more after. How can we be praying for you and your family?

52:44 - Speaker 1
Yeah, I'm in a very interesting season. It's probably been one of the most challenging seasons for me and my family, but it's also, you know, just one where God is just, I think, stripping away the things that have given me sustainable comfort and maybe ease. I've been in career ministry for 30 plus years and I've been very fortunate to live off of that and make good salary. I've been in small churches and large churches and, you know, always made enough to support my family through those things. And this past year I was in Colorado for 12 years. My wife and I took a position East Coast and it just didn't pan out. It's a great church, you know. There's just some differences in strategies and vision and how to get there. And there's some things for me that I've found myself for the first time in my life experiencing like I've never in my life experienced anxiety or stress in a job situation. And for the first time I was. And so we you know, mutually decided hey, maybe this just isn't the right fit. So I left, and I left without a plan. You know, our best, worst idea was to head to my mother-in-law's because they needed some help with some health issues and around the house, and so we just decided to do that and I was going to reboot. I was going to pray about how could I start doing shepherding and coaching and mentoring for people in niche market for lack of a better word that really people that need it don't have the money for it, and those kinds of things. And so along the way my friend offered me part-time work at his church and full health benefits, which is a huge blessing. And then I got connected through friends with a couple of organizations that do coaching and mentoring but raise support like a missionary to, so that when you're fully funded you can go to somebody who has a need for it, and money's not the reason you can't do it. And so I. It was something that never even occurred to me to do it that way, and God has opened the door for me to do that with an organization. But I'm just starting where you know my wife and I are dividing time between Northern California and Southern California. We're apart for some of the time and then we come together one place or the other until I've raised my support for this other organization and have a full salary, and that you know that could be three months, four months, five months, six months, who knows? But in that time we're just leaning to God. He's showing us that he's taking care of us every step of the way and he's opening the doors for where I really feel.

55:12
My calling is for this next season still to children's ministry, just in some different ways empowering and coaching and resourcing and shepherding others who do it. And, um, I still want to always be engaged in ministry, whether it's part-time or as a super volunteer, because I don't like when you know people come to you and say they want to help you in a ministry that they haven't been involved in in 10 years. You know they haven't been around in the trenches at all. So I will, I feel like I just for me personally, I just always want to stay connected so that I know what's happening in the lives of families, because it changes, you know, rapidly. So so, yeah, so God's been good, but I would say prayer just for provision. This next season we can see God working. It's just never on the timing that I want, and so we just have to be, yeah, prayer for patience and his provision.

56:05 - Speaker 3
Thank you for that. This was great. Yeah, we'll talk again soon. I'm sure we will.

56:10 - Speaker 1
I love the opportunity to share you know God's putting on my heart and hear from other people, and so, yeah, this is great. Appreciate the time.

56:19 - Speaker 3
That's it for the podcast.

56:21 - Speaker 2
Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. The Faithly digital Platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection, foster collaboration and promote growth within the church and ministry space. Remember to subscribe, rate and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you. Stay tuned for more uplifting tales from the frontlines of ministry on the Faithly podcast. Stay bold, stay faithful and never underestimate the power of your own story.