Believing in the Next Generation - Augustine Mendoza | Faithly Podcast

100:00:00.580 --> 00:00:01.740You're not going to get them through gimmicks.200:00:01.960 --> 00:00:03.380You're not going to make them stay because300:00:03.760 --> 00:00:05.120you spent a lot of money on your400:00:05.120 --> 00:00:05.760sound system.500:00:06.140 --> 00:00:07.500Like, you're going to get them to stay600:00:07.500 --> 00:00:09.180because like, man, this is authentic worship.700:00:09.340 --> 00:00:09.980This is real.800:00:17.830 --> 00:00:19.750This is The Faithly Podcast.900:00:21.310 --> 00:00:24.050Hello, I am joined on the podcast by1000:00:24.050 --> 00:00:27.470Augustine Mendoza from Oral Roberts University.1100:00:27.830 --> 00:00:28.830Welcome, Augustine.1200:00:29.350 --> 00:00:30.430Hey, thanks for having me.1300:00:30.470 --> 00:00:31.270Super glad to be here.1400:00:31.270 --> 00:00:32.730It's great to have you here.1500:00:33.050 --> 00:00:36.690So, Augustine, he spends his days walking alongside1600:00:36.690 --> 00:00:39.610Gen Z, this generation that has grown up1700:00:39.610 --> 00:00:40.070online.1800:00:40.630 --> 00:00:44.210They value authenticity, and they are asking deep1900:00:44.210 --> 00:00:46.770questions about faith and about calling.2000:00:47.750 --> 00:00:51.130And Augustine, as the Senior Director of Spiritual2100:00:51.130 --> 00:00:54.950Life and Student Experience, he's helping students to2200:00:54.950 --> 00:00:57.630discover who they are and how God is2300:00:57.630 --> 00:00:59.490calling them to make an impact.2400:01:00.130 --> 00:01:02.210So, Augustine, maybe we can start with this2500:01:02.210 --> 00:01:02.610question.2600:01:03.470 --> 00:01:06.470You are both an alum and now a2700:01:06.470 --> 00:01:08.330senior staff member at ORU.2800:01:08.570 --> 00:01:11.250What has that full circle journey been like2900:01:11.250 --> 00:01:11.710for you?3000:01:13.450 --> 00:01:17.790Yeah, it's sweet to see a place that's3100:01:17.790 --> 00:01:20.010poured so much into me as my undergrad3200:01:20.010 --> 00:01:23.530and my master's are from here, and then3300:01:23.530 --> 00:01:25.570be able to pour back into the same3400:01:25.570 --> 00:01:25.930place.3500:01:26.670 --> 00:01:30.270I really grew up and matured and wrestled3600:01:30.270 --> 00:01:33.030through hard things, hard questions and faith and3700:01:33.030 --> 00:01:35.670life and culture and career while being a3800:01:35.670 --> 00:01:35.950student.3900:01:36.550 --> 00:01:37.670And so now getting to be a staff4000:01:37.670 --> 00:01:40.410member and help walk people through those same4100:01:40.410 --> 00:01:43.510types of questions is an honor, honestly.4200:01:43.750 --> 00:01:47.030And I think working with college students, young4300:01:47.030 --> 00:01:49.190adults, really that 18 to 25-year-old4400:01:49.190 --> 00:01:52.150range, they're making big decisions, big life decisions.4500:01:52.330 --> 00:01:53.430And I know I made a lot of4600:01:53.430 --> 00:01:56.030big life decisions about what to major in4700:01:56.030 --> 00:01:57.530and what was my career path going to4800:01:57.530 --> 00:01:57.730be.4900:01:57.850 --> 00:01:59.870And I'm interested in dating this person.5000:01:59.970 --> 00:02:01.610I'm interested in marrying this person.5100:02:01.850 --> 00:02:03.370You're making big life choices.5200:02:04.570 --> 00:02:07.410And so I think it's really important, especially5300:02:07.410 --> 00:02:10.910in a Christian higher education institution, that we5400:02:10.910 --> 00:02:14.150come alongside young people as guides, not necessarily5500:02:14.150 --> 00:02:16.090telling them exactly what to do, when to5600:02:16.090 --> 00:02:17.570do it, how to do it, but being5700:02:17.570 --> 00:02:20.310a guide, a resource, someone to externalize with.5800:02:20.830 --> 00:02:21.790So a lot of people have done that5900:02:21.790 --> 00:02:22.290for me.6000:02:22.550 --> 00:02:24.410So getting to do that now for students6100:02:24.410 --> 00:02:27.190on a staff member capacity is really awesome.6200:02:27.910 --> 00:02:28.810That's so great.6300:02:29.010 --> 00:02:30.790When you think back to those college years,6400:02:30.930 --> 00:02:32.450what were some of the biggest questions that6500:02:32.450 --> 00:02:36.390you remember asking and grappling with about faith6600:02:36.390 --> 00:02:37.010and calling?6700:02:41.330 --> 00:02:44.490Probably the biggest, I would say one for6800:02:44.490 --> 00:02:45.870faith and one for more of a calling6900:02:45.870 --> 00:02:46.210thing.7000:02:46.290 --> 00:02:48.990For faith, do I really know what I7100:02:48.990 --> 00:02:49.310believe?7200:02:50.230 --> 00:02:54.230I think a lot of Christians come to7300:02:54.230 --> 00:02:56.650a university, whether Christian or not a Christian7400:02:56.650 --> 00:02:59.650institution, and they really have to answer questions7500:02:59.650 --> 00:03:01.610about their own faith, not their parents' faith,7600:03:01.710 --> 00:03:03.250not the church's faith that they come from,7700:03:03.290 --> 00:03:04.750not their pastor's faith, but their faith.7800:03:05.330 --> 00:03:07.930What do I believe about a lot of7900:03:07.930 --> 00:03:09.070contemporary Christian faith?8000:03:11.530 --> 00:03:14.990How do they intersect with theology, with denominations,8100:03:15.290 --> 00:03:16.990with the Bible, and where does that all8200:03:16.990 --> 00:03:17.130meet?8300:03:17.170 --> 00:03:18.750And where am I in the middle of8400:03:18.750 --> 00:03:19.110all that?8500:03:20.450 --> 00:03:25.110So I mean, probably every pop culture or8600:03:25.110 --> 00:03:29.070current culture issue or conversation, like I wrestled8700:03:29.070 --> 00:03:30.230with, I dealt with, I did in the8800:03:30.230 --> 00:03:31.970context of community and with pastors and with8900:03:31.970 --> 00:03:34.170leaders in classrooms and outside the classroom.9000:03:34.730 --> 00:03:38.170So I think wrestling through what does my9100:03:38.170 --> 00:03:40.450personal theology look like and where does it9200:03:40.450 --> 00:03:40.870come from?9300:03:40.950 --> 00:03:42.830Not just what do I believe, but why9400:03:42.830 --> 00:03:43.590do I believe it?9500:03:43.710 --> 00:03:45.110I think that's like a really big thing9600:03:45.110 --> 00:03:46.850that I wrestled through that I help other9700:03:46.850 --> 00:03:47.990young people wrestle through.9800:03:48.690 --> 00:03:51.010And then calling, I think is a lot9900:03:51.010 --> 00:03:52.530more what I would say is external.10000:03:52.790 --> 00:03:54.990So what am I called to do?10100:03:55.170 --> 00:03:56.730Like what does God put in my heart?10200:03:57.150 --> 00:03:58.930What causes me passion?10300:03:59.090 --> 00:04:01.650What causes me maybe grief or conviction and10400:04:01.650 --> 00:04:03.270stirs me to want to be a part10500:04:03.270 --> 00:04:05.550of finding a solution or being a part10600:04:05.550 --> 00:04:07.210of a movement or something that God is10700:04:07.210 --> 00:04:09.550doing in the fields of medicine or business10800:04:09.550 --> 00:04:12.750or engineering or ministry, education.10900:04:12.970 --> 00:04:14.630There's so many different ways you can go11000:04:14.630 --> 00:04:15.230about it.11100:04:15.390 --> 00:04:17.610So I love being in a university context11200:04:17.610 --> 00:04:20.649because a lot of people help me explore11300:04:20.649 --> 00:04:23.390my calling and my understanding of what my11400:04:23.390 --> 00:04:26.250vocation was going to be upon graduation.11500:04:26.410 --> 00:04:27.250And now I get to do that for11600:04:27.250 --> 00:04:27.530others.11700:04:27.870 --> 00:04:30.070And the cool thing about Gen Z is11800:04:30.070 --> 00:04:31.690they hate being put in a box.11900:04:31.850 --> 00:04:34.450So they don't want to be anywhere stereotyped,12000:04:34.530 --> 00:04:36.530put in any type of type parameter.12100:04:37.030 --> 00:04:38.050So a lot of them are like, I12200:04:38.050 --> 00:04:39.650want to be in business, but I also12300:04:39.650 --> 00:04:41.290want to do social media, but I also12400:04:41.290 --> 00:04:42.090want to do ministry.12500:04:42.350 --> 00:04:43.750And I sing and I paint.12600:04:43.990 --> 00:04:44.830So I want to do all that.12700:04:45.190 --> 00:04:46.990It's like, great, we're going to help you12800:04:46.990 --> 00:04:48.950walk through how do you find what things12900:04:48.950 --> 00:04:51.130are just hobbies and fun and other things13000:04:51.130 --> 00:04:52.290that you can make a living off of.13100:04:52.330 --> 00:04:54.110And maybe you'll start in business, but then13200:04:54.110 --> 00:04:55.750you'll end up in art.13300:04:55.850 --> 00:04:56.270I don't know.13400:04:56.330 --> 00:04:57.750There's so many different ways that people can13500:04:57.750 --> 00:04:57.910go.13600:04:57.990 --> 00:04:58.690So I love that.13700:04:58.790 --> 00:05:01.530Just helping people explore the world of what13800:05:01.530 --> 00:05:01.950could be.13900:05:02.530 --> 00:05:04.350Well, I love that little glimpse into how14000:05:04.350 --> 00:05:06.310Gen Z thinks and how you have conversations14100:05:06.310 --> 00:05:06.930about it.14200:05:06.990 --> 00:05:08.610Because when we were growing up and we14300:05:08.610 --> 00:05:11.170were struggling with these questions, we were looking14400:05:11.170 --> 00:05:13.130for a box to step into, right?14500:05:13.130 --> 00:05:15.050Like we wouldn't have struggled with that kind14600:05:15.050 --> 00:05:15.730of a construct.14700:05:15.910 --> 00:05:17.470We were like, sort of pick a path.14800:05:18.010 --> 00:05:19.490But I love that conversation.14900:05:19.870 --> 00:05:22.470Now, back when you were a student at15000:05:22.470 --> 00:05:24.550ORU, if someone had told you that this15100:05:24.550 --> 00:05:26.390would be your vocation, would you have been15200:05:26.390 --> 00:05:26.790surprised?15300:05:26.990 --> 00:05:28.230Like, is this the box that you had15400:05:28.230 --> 00:05:29.070picked for yourself?15500:05:30.150 --> 00:05:30.950Definitely not.15600:05:31.250 --> 00:05:33.370I was the millennial who had a very15700:05:33.370 --> 00:05:35.490strong idea of my career path.15800:05:36.050 --> 00:05:39.950Upon graduation, graduated the age of 22, and15900:05:39.950 --> 00:05:41.150was like, here's what I'm going to do.16000:05:41.210 --> 00:05:42.650And I had a 10-year basically ministry16100:05:42.650 --> 00:05:43.530plan in my head.16200:05:43.650 --> 00:05:45.230Because growing up, that was something I was16300:05:45.230 --> 00:05:47.170taught was like, have a plan and have16400:05:47.170 --> 00:05:48.230like, what's your 10-year plan?16500:05:48.350 --> 00:05:49.570What are your 10-year goals?16600:05:49.690 --> 00:05:51.410And I was really excited about that.16700:05:51.450 --> 00:05:52.150I really liked that.16800:05:52.650 --> 00:05:56.130And for me, I learned that a lot16900:05:56.130 --> 00:05:59.030of what I said, came from a heart17000:05:59.030 --> 00:06:00.870where I wanted to do a certain type17100:06:00.870 --> 00:06:01.430of ministry.17200:06:02.070 --> 00:06:04.470But I kind of put myself and maybe17300:06:04.470 --> 00:06:06.750even God in a box of like, then17400:06:06.750 --> 00:06:08.190this is how he's gonna do it.17500:06:08.470 --> 00:06:10.250Instead of saying, I know what my passion17600:06:10.250 --> 00:06:10.550is.17700:06:10.970 --> 00:06:12.250I know what my skills are.17800:06:12.350 --> 00:06:14.550I know what I'm really passionate about doing.17900:06:14.930 --> 00:06:17.590But however you want to manifest that in18000:06:17.590 --> 00:06:19.290a career, Lord, I'm cool with that.18100:06:19.750 --> 00:06:21.370Instead of saying that, I was like, and18200:06:21.370 --> 00:06:23.430it's going to be this direction in this18300:06:23.430 --> 00:06:25.190youth ministry, in this church, and it's going18400:06:25.190 --> 00:06:25.990to be this way.18500:06:26.710 --> 00:06:28.570And the Lord really had to blow that18600:06:28.570 --> 00:06:30.370up and say, actually, that's not what I've18700:06:30.370 --> 00:06:30.910called you to.18800:06:31.890 --> 00:06:33.770You're right, I've called you to this desire18900:06:33.770 --> 00:06:35.110and passion in your heart, but it's going19000:06:35.110 --> 00:06:36.130to look different than you think.19100:06:36.590 --> 00:06:37.610And so I'm really glad I had that19200:06:37.610 --> 00:06:39.030experience, because I've been able to talk to19300:06:39.030 --> 00:06:40.650a lot of students now about that.19400:06:40.990 --> 00:06:42.730And basically say, hey, it's cool to have19500:06:42.730 --> 00:06:43.150a plan.19600:06:43.750 --> 00:06:45.730But let's talk more about purpose and passion,19700:06:46.070 --> 00:06:47.630because that will come in a lot of19800:06:47.630 --> 00:06:49.610different forms, not just in your 20s and19900:06:49.610 --> 00:06:51.450your 30s, but your 40s and your 50s20000:06:51.450 --> 00:06:52.130and your 60s.20100:06:52.210 --> 00:06:53.850So to have a life plan and say,20200:06:53.950 --> 00:06:54.810well, I'm going to work at this job20300:06:54.810 --> 00:06:56.970for 40 years, we just see in trends20400:06:56.970 --> 00:06:58.750right now, that's probably not going to be20500:06:58.750 --> 00:06:59.230your path.20600:06:59.310 --> 00:07:00.870There's some people for sure, you might be20700:07:00.870 --> 00:07:02.790in a certain business for 40 years and20800:07:02.790 --> 00:07:03.450become the CEO.20900:07:03.670 --> 00:07:04.290And that's great.21000:07:04.790 --> 00:07:06.890But most people are going to be in21100:07:06.890 --> 00:07:07.970a lot of different spaces.21200:07:08.130 --> 00:07:09.430And so I've had a little bit of21300:07:09.430 --> 00:07:10.210experience of that now.21400:07:10.230 --> 00:07:11.990So I can definitely help guide students in21500:07:11.990 --> 00:07:12.330that way.21600:07:12.610 --> 00:07:13.810It's so great to see how God has21700:07:13.810 --> 00:07:16.670used you and your path and your passion21800:07:16.670 --> 00:07:17.490and your purpose.21900:07:18.430 --> 00:07:21.050So the questions that Gen Z are asking22000:07:21.050 --> 00:07:24.470today about faith and about calling, how have22100:07:24.470 --> 00:07:27.150those changed since you were a student on22200:07:27.150 --> 00:07:27.610campus?22300:07:30.070 --> 00:07:36.290I would say they've changed because of globalization22400:07:36.290 --> 00:07:40.670and I would say social media, which are22500:07:40.670 --> 00:07:45.250pretty much linked by globalization, because you can22600:07:45.250 --> 00:07:47.770talk to someone or hear from someone or22700:07:47.770 --> 00:07:50.090see a news update from somewhere in the22800:07:50.090 --> 00:07:52.510world that is not your home address.22900:07:53.350 --> 00:07:56.030So because of that, we're hyper aware, even23000:07:56.030 --> 00:07:57.810just if you just said the news, you're23100:07:57.810 --> 00:07:59.790more hyper aware of what's going on globally.23200:07:59.950 --> 00:08:02.250So it influences how you think about faith,23300:08:02.350 --> 00:08:04.150how you think about culture and career, because23400:08:04.150 --> 00:08:06.730no longer are you thinking, after college, I'm23500:08:06.730 --> 00:08:07.970going to go back to my hometown and23600:08:07.970 --> 00:08:09.510just work at this business that my dad23700:08:09.510 --> 00:08:09.750owns.23800:08:09.870 --> 00:08:10.810And I'm going to do that for the23900:08:10.810 --> 00:08:11.430rest of my life.24000:08:11.510 --> 00:08:12.310And then I'll have a family.24100:08:12.490 --> 00:08:14.490And again, some people may say that the24200:08:14.490 --> 00:08:17.010vast majority are thinking, where can I go?24300:08:17.110 --> 00:08:18.010What can I do?24400:08:18.610 --> 00:08:19.810I want to be a part of something24500:08:19.810 --> 00:08:21.770global and big and movement.24600:08:22.290 --> 00:08:23.390And I think that's changed a little bit24700:08:23.390 --> 00:08:25.890from the millennial generation a little bit.24800:08:26.170 --> 00:08:27.330And what's helped with that as well as24900:08:27.330 --> 00:08:28.070the social media.25000:08:28.190 --> 00:08:29.730So the rise of social media and how25100:08:29.730 --> 00:08:34.950TikTok, Instagram, X really just changed perception of25200:08:34.950 --> 00:08:35.610dialogue.25300:08:35.809 --> 00:08:42.169So dialogue about faith, culture, career, calling, it25400:08:42.169 --> 00:08:43.370moved online.25500:08:43.830 --> 00:08:45.090So I think a lot of it for25600:08:45.090 --> 00:08:47.410the millennials was in person, in groups, in25700:08:47.410 --> 00:08:50.430conferences, in churches, in coffee shops.25800:08:50.790 --> 00:08:54.350And now, way more dialogue is happening online.25900:08:54.750 --> 00:08:56.910And I think most trends we're looking at26000:08:56.910 --> 00:08:58.390are like, it's probably not the best way26100:08:58.390 --> 00:08:59.150to have a conversation.26200:08:59.470 --> 00:09:01.850The comment section usually turns into arguments and26300:09:01.850 --> 00:09:05.190debates, rather than face-to-face conversations, which26400:09:05.190 --> 00:09:06.890I think in turn, again, a trend would26500:09:06.890 --> 00:09:09.470be why podcasts have become more popular, because26600:09:09.470 --> 00:09:11.470you do get a conversational tone.26700:09:11.750 --> 00:09:14.050It's not a blanket post that goes viral26800:09:14.050 --> 00:09:15.490and then everybody starts debating on it.26900:09:15.550 --> 00:09:16.410It's a conversation.27000:09:16.570 --> 00:09:17.670You have to sit down, you have to27100:09:17.670 --> 00:09:19.390listen, you have to engage, you have to27200:09:19.390 --> 00:09:19.730think.27300:09:20.350 --> 00:09:22.230So I think millennials have kind of brought27400:09:22.230 --> 00:09:23.890podcasting back around and be like, we want27500:09:23.890 --> 00:09:24.590to have a conversation.27600:09:24.710 --> 00:09:26.470We don't want to just blast things up27700:09:26.470 --> 00:09:28.510there for likes or for reshares or all27800:09:28.510 --> 00:09:28.710that.27900:09:29.010 --> 00:09:31.590So I think that's really what's changed how28000:09:31.590 --> 00:09:32.990we have dialogue.28100:09:33.370 --> 00:09:35.010I think a lot of the questions are28200:09:35.010 --> 00:09:38.350the same about faith, about culture, about calling,28300:09:38.510 --> 00:09:41.790but how we're having them has greatly changed28400:09:41.790 --> 00:09:44.010from when I was in school to now,28500:09:44.710 --> 00:09:48.99010 plus years later, seeing how students engage28600:09:48.990 --> 00:09:52.890in hard conversations, still have hard conversations or28700:09:52.890 --> 00:09:55.890really wrestle through culture things in smaller groups28800:09:55.890 --> 00:09:56.490of friends.28900:09:56.770 --> 00:10:02.450But in general, they're being fed dialogues, monologues,29000:10:02.550 --> 00:10:06.770information via social, via digital, and then trying29100:10:06.770 --> 00:10:09.890to take that in and then figure out29200:10:09.890 --> 00:10:11.210if they can even talk about it.29300:10:11.430 --> 00:10:13.670And that's the politics, that's the faith, that's29400:10:13.670 --> 00:10:15.870the career, that's all areas.29500:10:16.510 --> 00:10:17.610Really interesting.29600:10:18.470 --> 00:10:19.970I want to go back to a comment29700:10:19.970 --> 00:10:21.930you said about this generation.29800:10:22.330 --> 00:10:24.250They see things in a very global way,29900:10:24.670 --> 00:10:24.850right?30000:10:24.890 --> 00:10:26.050Like they are trying to figure out how30100:10:26.050 --> 00:10:27.490to get out there and like they think30200:10:27.490 --> 00:10:29.050very global and they think scale.30300:10:30.030 --> 00:10:32.090As a millennial, do you ever feel tempted30400:10:32.090 --> 00:10:35.430to like tamp that down and like go30500:10:35.430 --> 00:10:37.750back to your 10-year plan roots and30600:10:37.750 --> 00:10:39.970sort of say, like, you know, be practical30700:10:39.970 --> 00:10:42.550and, you know, what's realistic?30800:10:44.050 --> 00:10:47.590Yeah, it's a delicate balance, I would say,30900:10:47.670 --> 00:10:48.490with young people.31000:10:49.730 --> 00:10:51.670Because I was the same way, you know,31100:10:51.730 --> 00:10:53.470I had big dreams and I did have31200:10:53.470 --> 00:10:54.330plans and all that.31300:10:54.670 --> 00:10:56.950And then other people were way more practical.31400:10:57.230 --> 00:11:00.990And I think there's benefit to practicality, but31500:11:00.990 --> 00:11:02.250there's also benefit to passion.31600:11:02.790 --> 00:11:05.050I know people that are really practical, that31700:11:05.050 --> 00:11:07.210really don't like their life, because they made31800:11:07.210 --> 00:11:08.950the really practical decision.31900:11:09.650 --> 00:11:11.610They're making good money, they're in a good32000:11:11.610 --> 00:11:13.850job, like, maybe they have family, but it's32100:11:13.850 --> 00:11:15.270a pretty mundane life.32200:11:15.890 --> 00:11:18.150And they know they chose it for themselves.32300:11:18.670 --> 00:11:20.570Whereas other people, their passion and they're out32400:11:20.570 --> 00:11:21.810there and you're like, whoa, like, how are32500:11:21.810 --> 00:11:22.670you going to pay for bills?32600:11:22.670 --> 00:11:24.170Like, is that really going to work out?32700:11:24.450 --> 00:11:27.090And I hear my parents and probably many32800:11:27.090 --> 00:11:29.110parents of generations be like, you need to32900:11:29.110 --> 00:11:30.590make a steady job, like you need to33000:11:30.590 --> 00:11:32.230provide, like you need to make sure you33100:11:32.230 --> 00:11:33.050can support yourself.33200:11:33.150 --> 00:11:34.030What about insurance?33300:11:34.150 --> 00:11:36.390Like all of these really practical questions, good33400:11:36.390 --> 00:11:36.890questions.33500:11:37.190 --> 00:11:39.010And I think you need to balance that33600:11:39.010 --> 00:11:42.770with, but what would you do if you33700:11:42.770 --> 00:11:45.110got all of your living expenses paid for,33800:11:45.850 --> 00:11:46.990but you weren't going to make a big33900:11:46.990 --> 00:11:47.410paycheck?34000:11:47.850 --> 00:11:48.630Like, what would you do?34100:11:48.930 --> 00:11:51.230Like if everything basic was covered, but you34200:11:51.230 --> 00:11:52.650were never going to be wealthy, you're just34300:11:52.650 --> 00:11:54.730going to be living and you're good, like34400:11:54.730 --> 00:11:56.410standard, what would you do for the rest34500:11:56.410 --> 00:11:57.250of your life if you could?34600:11:57.690 --> 00:11:59.650And I think that Gen Z is really34700:11:59.650 --> 00:12:01.290tapping into their passion right now.34800:12:02.230 --> 00:12:03.770And so I think on my side, I34900:12:03.770 --> 00:12:06.050am more of the practical help for them35000:12:06.050 --> 00:12:07.790in a lot of the conversations and guides.35100:12:08.250 --> 00:12:09.410But then, like I said, there's some students35200:12:09.410 --> 00:12:10.210that are really practical.35300:12:10.330 --> 00:12:11.890And I'm like, so do you, are you35400:12:11.890 --> 00:12:12.630passionate about this?35500:12:12.690 --> 00:12:14.150Like, do you really want to do this?35600:12:14.890 --> 00:12:16.150Why are you doing this?35700:12:16.190 --> 00:12:17.650And like making sure the passion's there.35800:12:17.930 --> 00:12:19.750So I think the power move for Gen35900:12:19.750 --> 00:12:21.850Z is when you put passion and practicality,36000:12:22.010 --> 00:12:24.530and they get both, they are going to36100:12:24.530 --> 00:12:25.130change the world.36200:12:25.230 --> 00:12:26.550They are going to make a difference in36300:12:26.550 --> 00:12:29.450their sphere of calling and career.36400:12:29.910 --> 00:12:32.070But it is emerging of both.36500:12:32.210 --> 00:12:33.990And maybe millennials, we were similar, we needed36600:12:33.990 --> 00:12:34.630a bit of both.36700:12:35.010 --> 00:12:36.330But I would say Gen Z right now,36800:12:36.450 --> 00:12:37.790that the Gen Z students that I'm around,36900:12:38.410 --> 00:12:39.810passion is not an issue.37000:12:40.130 --> 00:12:43.990They are definitely sensing calling and excitement about37100:12:43.990 --> 00:12:44.670the future.37200:12:45.110 --> 00:12:45.530I love that.37300:12:45.610 --> 00:12:47.190And I love a good alliteration.37400:12:47.630 --> 00:12:49.650The power move for Gen Z is that37500:12:49.650 --> 00:12:51.830passion and that practicality coming together.37600:12:51.970 --> 00:12:52.710I love it.37700:12:53.150 --> 00:12:54.210I didn't even try, it just came out.37800:12:55.270 --> 00:12:57.930Well, so you spend every day walking alongside37900:12:57.930 --> 00:12:58.850Gen Z, right?38000:12:58.910 --> 00:13:01.290What about, how would you describe this generation38100:13:01.290 --> 00:13:02.250spiritually?38200:13:02.590 --> 00:13:04.970What's unique about how they're approaching faith?38300:13:09.060 --> 00:13:11.940From my vantage point, which again is mostly38400:13:11.940 --> 00:13:15.460Christian Gen Z students, be on a Christian38500:13:15.460 --> 00:13:16.020campus.38600:13:16.520 --> 00:13:18.880I work with Gen Z globally in different38700:13:18.880 --> 00:13:20.580areas, but a lot of them being from38800:13:20.580 --> 00:13:22.580predominantly Christian atmospheres.38900:13:23.700 --> 00:13:24.860Lots of hunger.39000:13:25.120 --> 00:13:28.120I think more hunger than millennials did as39100:13:28.120 --> 00:13:29.620college students that were millennials.39200:13:30.000 --> 00:13:31.680Hunger for truth.39300:13:32.200 --> 00:13:36.160Hunger for experience in worship and in prayer.39400:13:37.140 --> 00:13:39.240Hungry to be around the things of God39500:13:39.240 --> 00:13:46.320that are uplifting and positive and praise.39600:13:46.740 --> 00:13:49.040When they're having a good time, they want39700:13:49.040 --> 00:13:50.000to have a good time with friends.39800:13:50.040 --> 00:13:50.780They want to have a good time in39900:13:50.780 --> 00:13:51.020worship.40000:13:51.160 --> 00:13:52.440They want to engage.40100:13:52.640 --> 00:13:56.300And I think the tie that I've sensed40200:13:56.300 --> 00:13:57.640from that is because they grew up as40300:13:57.640 --> 00:14:04.620digital natives, bombarded by information, bombarded by negativity,40400:14:04.900 --> 00:14:06.900bombarded by comment sections that make you feel40500:14:06.900 --> 00:14:07.880worse after reading it.40600:14:08.180 --> 00:14:11.920And being very image conscious as well, coming40700:14:11.920 --> 00:14:14.240into the presence of God, experiencing the power40800:14:14.240 --> 00:14:18.400of God, engaging with people in prayer, serving40900:14:18.400 --> 00:14:21.180on a missions or maybe a local context,41000:14:21.820 --> 00:14:25.300doing something real to them and engaging their41100:14:25.300 --> 00:14:28.120senses in it has been a powerful way41200:14:28.120 --> 00:14:29.060to feed that hunger.41300:14:29.540 --> 00:14:31.240And I've seen with our students, the more41400:14:31.240 --> 00:14:34.000they experience that, the more they open up,41500:14:34.060 --> 00:14:35.840the more they really feel alive, the more41600:14:35.840 --> 00:14:38.980they're eager to pursue education and the calling41700:14:38.980 --> 00:14:39.800and relationships.41800:14:40.240 --> 00:14:45.660And so I've experienced that encounter mixed with41900:14:45.660 --> 00:14:49.160engagement really is the best way for Gen42000:14:49.160 --> 00:14:52.180Z to fan the flame of what God42100:14:52.180 --> 00:14:53.520wants to do in their own hearts and42200:14:53.520 --> 00:14:54.200their own generation.42300:14:54.400 --> 00:14:55.880So I've experienced a lot of hunger.42400:14:56.560 --> 00:14:59.880On the flip side, I've also seen, and42500:14:59.880 --> 00:15:05.340this is the contrast, the balance of biblical42600:15:05.340 --> 00:15:09.280alliteration is really high with Gen Z.42700:15:09.640 --> 00:15:14.420So statistically, Gen Z is purchasing more Bibles42800:15:14.420 --> 00:15:17.260and has access to the word apps, social42900:15:17.260 --> 00:15:19.960media, more than ever before.43000:15:20.860 --> 00:15:23.280But I think because they've been so immersed43100:15:23.280 --> 00:15:26.180in just it being around, the depth isn't43200:15:26.180 --> 00:15:27.080necessarily there.43300:15:27.220 --> 00:15:29.340And again, I'm speaking generalizations for Gen Z.43400:15:29.920 --> 00:15:33.600But one of my big responsibilities I feel43500:15:33.600 --> 00:15:36.420working with Gen Z is as they discuss43600:15:36.420 --> 00:15:39.020things in culture, career, faith, all these things,43700:15:39.180 --> 00:15:42.500politics, going to the word of God and43800:15:42.500 --> 00:15:44.320really helping them engage with the word of43900:15:44.320 --> 00:15:47.420God, with their belief, with what the TikToker44000:15:47.420 --> 00:15:50.120said, and what the word says, and what44100:15:50.120 --> 00:15:53.140they heard in their favorite politics podcast, and44200:15:53.140 --> 00:15:55.360what the word says, and really trying to44300:15:55.360 --> 00:15:58.720marry and help them understand that scripture should44400:15:58.720 --> 00:16:02.080inform our views on all things, rather than44500:16:02.080 --> 00:16:06.000culture, politics, or whatever we're passionate about, fuel44600:16:06.000 --> 00:16:06.940how we read the Bible.44700:16:07.280 --> 00:16:09.420And there's a big difference in how you44800:16:09.420 --> 00:16:12.260use the Bible in that context.44900:16:12.840 --> 00:16:16.240I was just watching the U version celebration45000:16:16.240 --> 00:16:18.920last night, they hit over 1 billion downloads45100:16:18.920 --> 00:16:20.040for the app, which is crazy.45200:16:20.160 --> 00:16:21.360It's just down the road in Oklahoma City,45300:16:21.440 --> 00:16:22.260like an hour and a half away.45400:16:22.680 --> 00:16:24.080So I was live streaming and watching it45500:16:24.080 --> 00:16:25.880and just thinking and they were talking about45600:16:25.880 --> 00:16:27.880how the word goes forth and the word45700:16:27.880 --> 00:16:30.000has gone forth and Gen Z has access45800:16:30.000 --> 00:16:30.560to the word.45900:16:30.800 --> 00:16:32.820But just because you have access doesn't mean46000:16:32.820 --> 00:16:35.000you study it, you meditate on it, you46100:16:35.000 --> 00:16:35.760go deep in it.46200:16:36.360 --> 00:16:38.720And so I've really challenged our students to46300:16:38.720 --> 00:16:41.880not be cliche Christians, or to throw the46400:16:41.880 --> 00:16:44.040verse on the phrase that you want to46500:16:44.040 --> 00:16:47.060just affirm in yourself, I did this, I46600:16:47.060 --> 00:16:49.300voted this way, I chose this path, I46700:16:49.300 --> 00:16:51.620am dating this person, and I'm throwing a46800:16:51.620 --> 00:16:53.680scripture on it to just make me feel46900:16:53.680 --> 00:16:54.800better as a Christian about it.47000:16:54.820 --> 00:16:56.740But really, like, what does that scripture mean?47100:16:56.760 --> 00:16:57.980And was it supposed to be used in47200:16:57.980 --> 00:17:00.260that context and really go deeper in that.47300:17:00.340 --> 00:17:02.220So I think that's where my theology and47400:17:02.220 --> 00:17:04.220Bible training for my degrees is really helpful,47500:17:04.420 --> 00:17:06.400is just helping them learn how to navigate47600:17:06.400 --> 00:17:07.099that in depth.47700:17:07.260 --> 00:17:09.599So hunger, passion, I see in the generation,47800:17:09.800 --> 00:17:12.180but also a need for truth to really47900:17:12.180 --> 00:17:13.400get into the word of God in a48000:17:13.400 --> 00:17:13.920deeper way.48100:17:14.480 --> 00:17:15.300That's so good.48200:17:15.420 --> 00:17:16.220That's so good.48300:17:16.280 --> 00:17:18.420And I'm glad you mentioned the U version48400:17:18.420 --> 00:17:21.180celebration and the billion installs of the Bible.48500:17:22.339 --> 00:17:22.439Crazy.48600:17:22.720 --> 00:17:25.480Digital has done so much for the consumption48700:17:25.480 --> 00:17:27.319of the word and the availability of the48800:17:27.319 --> 00:17:27.600word.48900:17:28.380 --> 00:17:31.820But also print Bibles have been selling at49000:17:31.820 --> 00:17:32.760record numbers as well.49100:17:32.860 --> 00:17:36.180I'm curious, for students that you're walking alongside,49200:17:36.520 --> 00:17:38.480when they reach for the word, are they49300:17:38.480 --> 00:17:39.480doing it on their phones?49400:17:39.860 --> 00:17:41.380Or do they have physical Bibles?49500:17:41.600 --> 00:17:43.300Or is it a, does it depend on49600:17:43.300 --> 00:17:44.500what situation they're in?49700:17:45.680 --> 00:17:46.900I'd say it's a good mixture.49800:17:47.200 --> 00:17:49.440I think some, I would say those that49900:17:49.440 --> 00:17:51.640I'm seeing really get into the word more50000:17:51.640 --> 00:17:53.340are using a physical Bible.50100:17:53.560 --> 00:17:55.900I myself love a physical Bible because I50200:17:55.900 --> 00:17:57.620can put my phone face down and there's50300:17:57.620 --> 00:17:58.820no notifications coming on.50400:17:58.960 --> 00:18:01.520I can just get immersed in a physical50500:18:01.520 --> 00:18:02.000book.50600:18:02.460 --> 00:18:04.120And also I think Gen Z is also50700:18:04.120 --> 00:18:05.300very artistic in general.50800:18:06.080 --> 00:18:07.780Even events we do on campus, they always50900:18:07.780 --> 00:18:10.780want something artsy to do at it, some51000:18:10.780 --> 00:18:13.220craft or something to paint or chalk.51100:18:13.580 --> 00:18:14.980And so I think having a physical Bible51200:18:14.980 --> 00:18:18.760with highlighters and pens and annotating and writing51300:18:18.760 --> 00:18:21.080pictures in your Bible, it helps them engage51400:18:21.080 --> 00:18:21.520with scripture.51500:18:21.700 --> 00:18:22.840And I've seen a lot of our students51600:18:22.840 --> 00:18:23.200do that.51700:18:23.320 --> 00:18:25.340So I have seen that side about Bible51800:18:25.340 --> 00:18:26.220sales being on the rise.51900:18:26.320 --> 00:18:27.660And I think that's awesome.52000:18:27.780 --> 00:18:29.640I actually think that will cause Gen Z52100:18:29.640 --> 00:18:31.300to go more in the word in depth52200:18:31.300 --> 00:18:33.720because they'll have something physical, something tangible that52300:18:33.720 --> 00:18:35.540they can kind of touch and make their52400:18:35.540 --> 00:18:36.940own and personalize.52500:18:37.020 --> 00:18:38.680And I think that's really good.52600:18:39.560 --> 00:18:40.440Super interesting.52700:18:40.940 --> 00:18:41.080Okay.52800:18:41.140 --> 00:18:43.160So I've heard it said about Gen Z.52900:18:43.260 --> 00:18:44.260I want to test this with you.53000:18:44.320 --> 00:18:47.020I've heard that they are both deeply spiritual53100:18:47.020 --> 00:18:49.480as well as deeply skeptical.53200:18:50.460 --> 00:18:53.160And maybe that comes from this barrage of53300:18:53.160 --> 00:18:55.160information coming at them in digital.53400:18:55.420 --> 00:18:58.760But I'm just curious if you've seen that53500:18:58.760 --> 00:19:00.000tension on campus.53600:19:01.620 --> 00:19:02.120Definitely.53700:19:02.640 --> 00:19:02.880Yeah.53800:19:03.560 --> 00:19:05.880In fact, our last chapel, our speaker talked53900:19:05.880 --> 00:19:08.900about the rise of cynicism in the church,54000:19:09.500 --> 00:19:11.100especially the Western church.54100:19:11.840 --> 00:19:14.080And just talked about the idea of like,54200:19:14.140 --> 00:19:16.880hey, we can't be cynics and receive truth54300:19:16.880 --> 00:19:17.700at the same time.54400:19:18.740 --> 00:19:20.620And I think it's come from church.54500:19:20.620 --> 00:19:23.480I think it's come from, man, a lot54600:19:23.480 --> 00:19:26.840of viewpoints being blasted via your social media54700:19:26.840 --> 00:19:27.800all the time.54800:19:27.920 --> 00:19:29.180And I don't know what to believe.54900:19:29.380 --> 00:19:30.080I like this pastor.55000:19:30.160 --> 00:19:30.840And I like this pastor.55100:19:30.920 --> 00:19:31.440I like this pastor.55200:19:31.580 --> 00:19:33.400But they're all saying different things about the55300:19:33.400 --> 00:19:34.180same situation.55400:19:34.680 --> 00:19:35.700Ah, I'm overwhelmed.55500:19:35.900 --> 00:19:37.840I don't know how to like process that.55600:19:38.040 --> 00:19:40.700So you become cynical or you like disassociate.55700:19:41.180 --> 00:19:43.620So even things that have happened this year,55800:19:44.020 --> 00:19:46.800culturally, politically in the US, we see two55900:19:46.800 --> 00:19:48.320different responses.56000:19:48.620 --> 00:19:51.240You dive head first into it, and it56100:19:51.240 --> 00:19:51.920gets really messy.56200:19:52.460 --> 00:19:54.420Or you completely back out and be like,56300:19:54.500 --> 00:19:55.880I want nothing to do with this because56400:19:55.880 --> 00:19:56.400it's messy.56500:19:56.760 --> 00:19:58.400So you either dive into the mess or56600:19:58.400 --> 00:19:59.920you like don't want anything to do with56700:19:59.920 --> 00:20:00.240the mess.56800:20:00.340 --> 00:20:02.240And I think Gen Z, just based on56900:20:02.240 --> 00:20:03.780where they are on their season of maturity,57000:20:04.000 --> 00:20:05.720like, they're not really sure which one to57100:20:05.720 --> 00:20:05.920do.57200:20:05.980 --> 00:20:07.180And it's very case by case.57300:20:07.400 --> 00:20:10.760So I have seen a rise of spiritual57400:20:10.760 --> 00:20:11.300hunger.57500:20:11.500 --> 00:20:12.720And I would say spiritual is a good57600:20:12.720 --> 00:20:17.880word because witchcraft, crystals, new age, all these57700:20:17.880 --> 00:20:19.500things are also on the rise.57800:20:20.400 --> 00:20:22.220You go on TikTok feeds with Gen Z57900:20:22.220 --> 00:20:23.680and like, that's on their feet.58000:20:24.100 --> 00:20:25.940And so they're looking at that, they're listening58100:20:25.940 --> 00:20:26.440to that.58200:20:26.800 --> 00:20:30.040And they're trying to discern, I have a58300:20:30.040 --> 00:20:32.780spiritual hunger for something outside of my normal.58400:20:33.920 --> 00:20:35.360But that can come in a lot of58500:20:35.360 --> 00:20:35.920different ways.58600:20:36.220 --> 00:20:38.560And so I see Gen Z is very58700:20:38.560 --> 00:20:39.760open to the gospel.58800:20:40.240 --> 00:20:42.680But they're also very open to a lot58900:20:42.680 --> 00:20:44.740of religious belief, which I think is a59000:20:44.740 --> 00:20:47.380great opportunity for all Christian leaders, regardless of59100:20:47.380 --> 00:20:47.740where you are.59200:20:47.800 --> 00:20:48.960If you have a Gen Z person coming59300:20:48.960 --> 00:20:51.120in, they're probably spiritually hungry.59400:20:51.380 --> 00:20:54.700They're probably looking for something deeper than their59500:20:54.700 --> 00:20:55.120job.59600:20:55.420 --> 00:20:57.140So I told a group of leaders the59700:20:57.140 --> 00:20:58.280other day, I was like, you could be59800:20:58.280 --> 00:21:00.060in an engineering field or a business field59900:21:00.060 --> 00:21:01.260or a medical field doesn't matter.60000:21:01.660 --> 00:21:03.280If you have a Gen Z person, man,60100:21:03.300 --> 00:21:04.960it is not hard to get them to60200:21:04.960 --> 00:21:06.320open up about those kind of things.60300:21:06.320 --> 00:21:08.120Just ask them about what's on their TikTok60400:21:08.120 --> 00:21:09.940feed, ask them what they think about something60500:21:09.940 --> 00:21:12.340in culture, and they will start going.60600:21:12.760 --> 00:21:14.040And it just will tell you so much.60700:21:14.160 --> 00:21:16.360So I don't have a hunger problem here60800:21:16.360 --> 00:21:16.820on campus.60900:21:16.980 --> 00:21:17.820There's plenty of that.61000:21:18.320 --> 00:21:19.920But like you said, I think it's navigating61100:21:19.920 --> 00:21:23.800that without cynicism, with maturity, and trying to61200:21:23.800 --> 00:21:26.440go into conversations and not feel offended, or61300:21:26.440 --> 00:21:29.180bitter or resistant, but really go into it61400:21:29.180 --> 00:21:31.860with seeking to understand rather than being understood.61500:21:32.520 --> 00:21:34.380And that's a hard lesson to learn for61600:21:34.380 --> 00:21:36.060I think any young person in any generation.61700:21:36.720 --> 00:21:38.600But with Gen Z, I think that's hard61800:21:38.600 --> 00:21:40.640because of all them bombardments they get.61900:21:41.020 --> 00:21:42.000Yeah, absolutely.62000:21:42.460 --> 00:21:43.920I think we can all relate to that62100:21:43.920 --> 00:21:44.680too, right?62200:21:45.680 --> 00:21:47.960Well, so here's something I know must be62300:21:47.960 --> 00:21:50.180on ministry leaders' minds as they're listening to62400:21:50.180 --> 00:21:50.300you.62500:21:50.360 --> 00:21:52.820What are the turnoffs for Gen Z?62600:21:53.360 --> 00:21:55.600Like, what is it that like, like sets62700:21:55.600 --> 00:21:57.880off those like alarm bells that makes them62800:21:57.880 --> 00:22:00.620suspicious or sort of stay away from something?62900:22:02.520 --> 00:22:03.560That's a great question.63000:22:04.020 --> 00:22:05.600We talked about one already, I would say63100:22:05.600 --> 00:22:06.440putting them in a box.63200:22:06.680 --> 00:22:06.840Yeah.63300:22:06.900 --> 00:22:07.820And putting them in a corner.63400:22:08.320 --> 00:22:11.980They're not meant for do this and then63500:22:11.980 --> 00:22:14.500go home kind of jobs or atmospheres.63600:22:14.680 --> 00:22:16.260They want to be immersed.63700:22:16.780 --> 00:22:18.340They want to have other opportunities.63800:22:19.360 --> 00:22:22.020My students, like I have student workers, giving63900:22:22.020 --> 00:22:23.320them a job and they have a description,64000:22:23.460 --> 00:22:24.180and I want to make sure they do64100:22:24.180 --> 00:22:24.420that.64200:22:24.560 --> 00:22:27.080But I'll often give them outlets, things outside64300:22:27.080 --> 00:22:28.920of their job description, and they want that.64400:22:29.320 --> 00:22:30.520So like, hey, you're doing this job, but64500:22:30.520 --> 00:22:31.560I also know you love photography.64600:22:31.820 --> 00:22:33.300Would you want to come take photos at64700:22:33.300 --> 00:22:34.120this event with us?64800:22:34.200 --> 00:22:36.220Like, just unofficially just like come be a64900:22:36.220 --> 00:22:36.560part of it.65000:22:36.980 --> 00:22:37.340Absolutely.65100:22:37.680 --> 00:22:39.100Because they love photography and they're going to65200:22:39.100 --> 00:22:41.780jump in and they feel fulfilled because I65300:22:41.780 --> 00:22:42.540understand them.65400:22:42.680 --> 00:22:44.080And I think that's the second thing that65500:22:44.080 --> 00:22:46.980really turns up Gen Z is not just65600:22:46.980 --> 00:22:50.700stereotypes, but choosing not to be in relationship65700:22:50.700 --> 00:22:51.220with them.65800:22:51.480 --> 00:22:53.080If you're not in a relationship with them,65900:22:53.200 --> 00:22:54.520they won't open up.66000:22:54.640 --> 00:22:55.520They're not going to be honest.66100:22:55.660 --> 00:22:56.760They're not going to work hard.66200:22:57.020 --> 00:22:58.100You need relationship with them.66300:22:58.480 --> 00:22:59.560In fact, I was reading a study.66400:22:59.760 --> 00:23:01.220I forget where I read it.66500:23:01.220 --> 00:23:01.860It'll come to me.66600:23:01.980 --> 00:23:05.200But Gen Z actually has higher expectations of66700:23:05.200 --> 00:23:08.860their employers and their managers than millennials did.66800:23:09.480 --> 00:23:12.640Millennials were looking at benefits, being practical, work66900:23:12.640 --> 00:23:13.980life balance, vacation.67000:23:14.380 --> 00:23:15.700And Gen Z cares about those things to67100:23:15.700 --> 00:23:16.160some extent.67200:23:16.660 --> 00:23:18.260But what they're really looking for is does67300:23:18.260 --> 00:23:19.760this manager actually care about me?67400:23:19.920 --> 00:23:22.460Because if you care about me, like I'm67500:23:22.460 --> 00:23:23.580probably going to run through a wall for67600:23:23.580 --> 00:23:23.800you.67700:23:24.100 --> 00:23:25.720But if you don't care about me, you67800:23:25.720 --> 00:23:26.720can give me all the perks and benefits67900:23:26.720 --> 00:23:27.820in the world, but I go to a68000:23:27.820 --> 00:23:28.320better place.68100:23:28.780 --> 00:23:31.760And that's where places like Google or Apple68200:23:31.760 --> 00:23:35.000and you see these hangout zones and food.68300:23:35.180 --> 00:23:36.740It's less about the perk for Gen Z.68400:23:37.200 --> 00:23:38.680It's you care about me.68500:23:38.920 --> 00:23:39.900You see me.68600:23:40.040 --> 00:23:40.900You hear me.68700:23:41.280 --> 00:23:42.880And that's where the individualization of Gen Z68800:23:42.880 --> 00:23:44.100really comes in is they want to be68900:23:44.100 --> 00:23:46.600treated like an individual, not you're one of69000:23:46.600 --> 00:23:48.100my many staff members.69100:23:48.220 --> 00:23:50.580You're one of my many marketing people.69200:23:50.680 --> 00:23:52.260You're one of my many event people.69300:23:52.440 --> 00:23:54.460No, you're special to me.69400:23:54.920 --> 00:23:55.380Individualization.69500:23:55.840 --> 00:23:57.500So a turnoff would be treating them just69600:23:57.500 --> 00:24:00.440like they're a Gen Z person.69700:24:00.740 --> 00:24:02.840And the third turnoff that I know for69800:24:02.840 --> 00:24:06.580sure is not listening to them.69900:24:06.920 --> 00:24:09.000If you don't listen to them, if you70000:24:09.000 --> 00:24:10.700do, if you shut down a Gen Z70100:24:10.700 --> 00:24:14.960voice, they will leave or they will not70200:24:14.960 --> 00:24:15.780listen to you.70300:24:16.140 --> 00:24:17.920So if you want to be listened to,70400:24:18.020 --> 00:24:19.840it does take a lot of listening.70500:24:19.840 --> 00:24:22.660And so I've learned just working with students,70600:24:22.840 --> 00:24:27.360with Gen Zers, sometimes listening doesn't mean like70700:24:27.360 --> 00:24:29.000I'm going to do what they want, or70800:24:29.000 --> 00:24:30.060I'm going to change things.70900:24:30.320 --> 00:24:33.060But hearing them out and then trying to71000:24:33.060 --> 00:24:35.300give them a why behind a lot of71100:24:35.300 --> 00:24:39.160decisions, a why behind a policy, a why71200:24:39.160 --> 00:24:40.740behind why they didn't get the promotion and71300:24:40.740 --> 00:24:41.480someone else did.71400:24:41.600 --> 00:24:42.800I've had those conversations.71500:24:42.920 --> 00:24:44.680And what I've learned is when I as71600:24:44.680 --> 00:24:48.560like a manager, oversee over Gen Z, help71700:24:48.560 --> 00:24:52.280them get understand context and perspective, 90 plus71800:24:52.280 --> 00:24:54.340percent of the time, they're good after that.71900:24:54.400 --> 00:24:56.680They just they're not like millennials.72000:24:56.800 --> 00:24:57.940I didn't get the promotion.72100:24:58.400 --> 00:24:59.660And then there's no other communication.72200:24:59.980 --> 00:25:01.820If I didn't get the promotion, they're probably72300:25:01.820 --> 00:25:02.960going to circle back and like, why didn't72400:25:02.960 --> 00:25:03.440I get it?72500:25:03.560 --> 00:25:07.220And managers, myself, other millennials, people can't be72600:25:07.220 --> 00:25:08.140offended or angry.72700:25:08.240 --> 00:25:09.520Like don't question authority.72800:25:09.520 --> 00:25:10.540Don't question the boss.72900:25:10.960 --> 00:25:13.060What they want is to be heard really73000:25:13.060 --> 00:25:13.660more than anything.73100:25:13.760 --> 00:25:14.520It's like I've worked hard.73200:25:14.620 --> 00:25:15.140I've done this.73300:25:15.240 --> 00:25:15.760I did that.73400:25:16.120 --> 00:25:17.640Hey, thank you for explaining that.73500:25:17.740 --> 00:25:18.280I hear you.73600:25:18.780 --> 00:25:20.440So these kind of conversations are really important.73700:25:20.640 --> 00:25:22.100And I've seen people who try to lead73800:25:22.100 --> 00:25:24.120Gen Z and be like, just listen to73900:25:24.120 --> 00:25:24.620what I say.74000:25:24.900 --> 00:25:26.000I'm not here to listen to you.74100:25:26.040 --> 00:25:26.520I'm your boss.74200:25:26.580 --> 00:25:27.000I'm your manager.74300:25:27.060 --> 00:25:27.540I'm your leader.74400:25:27.620 --> 00:25:28.200I'm your pastor.74500:25:28.420 --> 00:25:29.440Just do what I say.74600:25:30.200 --> 00:25:31.440That's an instant turn off.74700:25:31.600 --> 00:25:33.440Every time they're leaving that business, they're leaving74800:25:33.440 --> 00:25:34.040that church.74900:25:34.780 --> 00:25:36.840So creating space to listen to them, I75000:25:36.840 --> 00:25:38.160think is really, really important.75100:25:39.300 --> 00:25:39.420Wow.75200:25:39.560 --> 00:25:40.940Thank you for that, Augustine.75300:25:41.500 --> 00:25:43.520We have a lot of ministry leaders who75400:25:43.520 --> 00:25:45.980listen to this podcast, who employ Gen Z75500:25:45.980 --> 00:25:47.940at their churches and ministries right now.75600:25:48.040 --> 00:25:50.880And I can almost hear the wheels shifting75700:25:50.880 --> 00:25:52.980in their minds right now, because I think75800:25:52.980 --> 00:25:56.640you're helping to unlock why the old methods75900:25:56.640 --> 00:26:01.780of communication and employment, even in the church76000:26:01.780 --> 00:26:04.000and ministry space, don't really work with this76100:26:04.000 --> 00:26:04.500generation.76200:26:04.640 --> 00:26:06.240I think you're really helping leaders to unlock76300:26:06.240 --> 00:26:06.620something.76400:26:06.720 --> 00:26:07.740So thank you for that.76500:26:08.580 --> 00:26:09.640And can I just add one thing in76600:26:09.640 --> 00:26:12.900there, because that reminded me, I've heard a76700:26:12.900 --> 00:26:16.140lot of people call Gen Z entitled, like76800:26:16.140 --> 00:26:18.600an entitled generation, like they think they deserve76900:26:18.600 --> 00:26:21.260at 22 when they graduate, that they already77000:26:21.260 --> 00:26:23.580deserve like a mid-level position, or they77100:26:23.580 --> 00:26:25.200deserve not to have to do those things77200:26:25.200 --> 00:26:26.160because they, you know, whatever.77300:26:26.700 --> 00:26:27.700And I've heard that.77400:26:27.780 --> 00:26:29.820And I would just love to offer maybe77500:26:29.820 --> 00:26:30.620a different perspective.77600:26:31.800 --> 00:26:33.040I do hear that.77700:26:33.220 --> 00:26:34.740And to be honest, I encounter that sometimes77800:26:34.740 --> 00:26:35.360with students.77900:26:36.580 --> 00:26:38.580But what I've learned is, I don't think78000:26:38.580 --> 00:26:39.860it stems from entitlement.78100:26:40.320 --> 00:26:42.680I think it just stems from a strong78200:26:42.680 --> 00:26:45.380belief in themselves, which again, you can perceive78300:26:45.380 --> 00:26:46.900as entitlement, like I deserve this.78400:26:47.340 --> 00:26:49.200But oftentimes, as I've sat with young people,78500:26:49.200 --> 00:26:50.560and they've come off to me as entitled,78600:26:50.640 --> 00:26:53.360and I've been like, whoa, you just got78700:26:53.360 --> 00:26:54.300here, buddy, like, calm down.78800:26:55.100 --> 00:26:58.840What I've learned is, they're so passionate, they're78900:26:58.840 --> 00:27:01.300so hungry, and they're so self-confident in79000:27:01.300 --> 00:27:03.960a lot of these situations, they don't realize79100:27:03.960 --> 00:27:05.460how strong they're coming off.79200:27:05.860 --> 00:27:07.960And I've actually learned that if I can,79300:27:08.040 --> 00:27:10.160again, listen to them, and hear them out,79400:27:10.780 --> 00:27:14.220help them understand the context of why I'm79500:27:14.220 --> 00:27:17.320asking them to do certain things, not only79600:27:17.320 --> 00:27:18.920do they stay loyal to me, but then79700:27:18.920 --> 00:27:20.920I know, okay, this is someone that's going79800:27:20.920 --> 00:27:22.540to grow with the organization, grow with the79900:27:22.540 --> 00:27:22.820church.80000:27:23.100 --> 00:27:25.260So I've described it as like the Peter80100:27:25.260 --> 00:27:25.660syndrome.80200:27:26.380 --> 00:27:29.680So the disciple Peter, like bold, like out80300:27:29.680 --> 00:27:33.260there, like kind of like abrasive sometimes, probably80400:27:33.260 --> 00:27:35.400goes a little too far in some instances.80500:27:35.940 --> 00:27:37.700I see a lot of those in Gen80600:27:37.700 --> 00:27:37.820Z.80700:27:38.720 --> 00:27:41.140And so what I've learned is, help them80800:27:41.140 --> 00:27:42.540see themselves in that light.80900:27:42.700 --> 00:27:43.900Yo, you're kind of like Peter.81000:27:44.180 --> 00:27:45.380Again, this is a lot for the church81100:27:45.380 --> 00:27:45.600leaders.81200:27:45.920 --> 00:27:47.860You're kind of like Peter, like you have81300:27:47.860 --> 00:27:50.100big calling, there's a lot of stuff on81400:27:50.100 --> 00:27:52.020your life, you're going to do awesome things,81500:27:52.060 --> 00:27:53.900like you affirm all the things that they81600:27:53.900 --> 00:27:54.860feel inside of themselves.81700:27:55.520 --> 00:27:56.740But hey, I just also want to warn81800:27:56.740 --> 00:27:59.140you like Peter, it can be easy to81900:27:59.140 --> 00:28:01.100come off abrasive, it can be easy to82000:28:01.100 --> 00:28:03.780push the envelope, learn the power of submission,82100:28:04.020 --> 00:28:06.320learn the power of humility, learn the power82200:28:06.320 --> 00:28:09.160of walking behind and learning so that when82300:28:09.160 --> 00:28:10.580you're released to do that thing you want82400:28:10.580 --> 00:28:12.220to do, man, you're going to explode, it's82500:28:12.220 --> 00:28:12.820going to be awesome.82600:28:13.140 --> 00:28:14.940So I've learned that as pastors and leaders,82700:28:15.140 --> 00:28:18.260like, don't dismiss it and call it pride82800:28:18.260 --> 00:28:18.920or entitlement.82900:28:19.480 --> 00:28:20.900See it for what it is, like there's83000:28:20.900 --> 00:28:22.440something there, there's a gifting.83100:28:22.940 --> 00:28:24.740And it's my job as a leader to83200:28:24.740 --> 00:28:26.800help nourish it and cultivate it and make83300:28:26.800 --> 00:28:27.920sure it grows appropriately.83400:28:28.300 --> 00:28:30.220But just because you see it doesn't necessarily83500:28:30.220 --> 00:28:30.960mean they're entitled.83600:28:31.220 --> 00:28:32.380Maybe there's a little bit of entitlement in83700:28:32.380 --> 00:28:32.480there.83800:28:32.740 --> 00:28:34.100Peter definitely had a little bit of entitlement83900:28:34.100 --> 00:28:34.840in certain times.84000:28:35.280 --> 00:28:36.940But also there's a lot of purpose there84100:28:36.940 --> 00:28:38.080and there's a lot of power there.84200:28:38.280 --> 00:28:40.900So don't dismiss a Gen Z just because84300:28:40.900 --> 00:28:42.920they come off really strong.84400:28:43.120 --> 00:28:44.380And obviously, you have to use discernment and84500:28:44.380 --> 00:28:44.900all that kind of thing.84600:28:44.960 --> 00:28:46.460But just two more cents on that.84700:28:46.560 --> 00:28:47.540I think that'd be important.84800:28:47.780 --> 00:28:48.760That is so good.84900:28:48.880 --> 00:28:49.680Thank you, Augustine.85000:28:49.780 --> 00:28:51.180I want to switch gears for a second.85100:28:51.700 --> 00:28:53.900We've talked about, sorry, I just knocked my85200:28:53.900 --> 00:28:56.980camera off its base here.85300:28:57.080 --> 00:28:58.560But I want to talk for a second85400:28:58.560 --> 00:29:02.680about creating the spaces at a place like85500:29:02.680 --> 00:29:05.440ORU where students are in this time of85600:29:05.440 --> 00:29:07.860life where they're asking the big questions and85700:29:07.860 --> 00:29:09.840making the big decisions about life.85800:29:10.320 --> 00:29:12.760How do you create those spaces that are85900:29:12.760 --> 00:29:15.840safe for students to wrestle with doubt and86000:29:15.840 --> 00:29:18.840uncertainty while still being called deeper?86100:29:20.920 --> 00:29:26.160Yeah, I think it's more cultural than event86200:29:26.160 --> 00:29:26.420-driven.86300:29:27.020 --> 00:29:29.320We just have a culture of honesty and86400:29:29.320 --> 00:29:30.800respect on campus.86500:29:31.340 --> 00:29:34.680We have over 140 nations of students represented86600:29:34.680 --> 00:29:37.260on campus, students from 140 different nations on86700:29:37.260 --> 00:29:40.060campus, all 50 US states on campus.86800:29:40.700 --> 00:29:44.180So we have Americans who are voting red86900:29:44.180 --> 00:29:44.700and blue.87000:29:45.000 --> 00:29:47.320But we also have people from outside the87100:29:47.320 --> 00:29:49.100country, like literally hundreds and hundreds and hundreds87200:29:49.100 --> 00:29:50.800of students from outside the country who don't87300:29:50.800 --> 00:29:52.740care about Republican or Democrat.87400:29:53.140 --> 00:29:54.860They actually are thinking about their politics back87500:29:54.860 --> 00:29:57.580home or how America's policies impact them.87600:29:57.980 --> 00:29:59.440And so even when I think about exploring87700:29:59.440 --> 00:30:02.000the idea of politics, exploring the idea of87800:30:02.000 --> 00:30:06.200theology, denominations, even to be a Baptist from87900:30:06.200 --> 00:30:08.500Louisiana is very different than a Baptist from88000:30:08.500 --> 00:30:09.280Nairobi, Kenya.88100:30:09.540 --> 00:30:13.260There's very big differences in labels.88200:30:13.480 --> 00:30:16.440So you can call yourself a liberal in88300:30:16.440 --> 00:30:18.100the United States, but a liberal in the88400:30:18.100 --> 00:30:20.140UK or a liberal in Australia or a88500:30:20.140 --> 00:30:22.080liberal in Japan, very different context.88600:30:22.360 --> 00:30:27.100So I think because of how ethnically diverse88700:30:27.100 --> 00:30:29.180we are and how diverse we are with88800:30:29.180 --> 00:30:33.180opinions and backgrounds and denominations and faith upbringings,88900:30:33.380 --> 00:30:36.280it actually lends itself to really say, oh,89000:30:36.540 --> 00:30:38.940I don't actually know a whole lot because89100:30:38.940 --> 00:30:40.840I'm surrounded by people when I say, oh,89200:30:40.940 --> 00:30:42.520this candidate is the best.89300:30:42.640 --> 00:30:43.580Everyone's going to vote for him.89400:30:43.760 --> 00:30:45.240And they're sitting next to four people from89500:30:45.240 --> 00:30:46.380a different country who have never heard that89600:30:46.380 --> 00:30:46.700person.89700:30:46.800 --> 00:30:48.500It's very humbling because you're like, this is89800:30:48.500 --> 00:30:49.160my world.89900:30:49.760 --> 00:30:51.300And yet it's not the world.90000:30:51.340 --> 00:30:53.080It's just your small corner of the world.90100:30:53.180 --> 00:30:56.240So I think having a culture of humility,90200:30:56.840 --> 00:30:59.540of being learners, of being able to ask90300:30:59.540 --> 00:31:00.280questions.90400:31:00.840 --> 00:31:03.180At the beginning of every school year, we90500:31:03.180 --> 00:31:05.380host a chapel service that we call Honor90600:31:05.380 --> 00:31:05.740Chapel.90700:31:06.380 --> 00:31:07.820And in Honor Chapel, we talk about the90800:31:07.820 --> 00:31:09.600cultural expectations of our campus.90900:31:10.140 --> 00:31:12.380And there's a few things that we talk91000:31:12.380 --> 00:31:12.560about.91100:31:12.620 --> 00:31:13.640But one of the things we talk about91200:31:13.640 --> 00:31:15.960is we have a culture of honor for91300:31:15.960 --> 00:31:17.380people that honor each other.91400:31:17.460 --> 00:31:19.300So when you're in class and you're debating91500:31:19.300 --> 00:31:22.360about foreign policy or you're debating about a91600:31:22.360 --> 00:31:24.920certain theological belief or an interpretation of a91700:31:24.920 --> 00:31:26.780scripture, we do that with honor.91800:31:27.180 --> 00:31:29.600We can disagree without disrespecting.91900:31:29.700 --> 00:31:30.500It's actually possible.92000:31:30.680 --> 00:31:31.920I know in our world that seems crazy,92100:31:32.020 --> 00:31:33.040but you can disagree.92200:31:33.220 --> 00:31:35.080We can have a disagreement on this podcast,92300:31:35.420 --> 00:31:38.080and we can still walk away theoretically shaking92400:31:38.080 --> 00:31:40.160hands and being respectful and saying, hey, I92500:31:40.160 --> 00:31:40.520respect you.92600:31:40.580 --> 00:31:42.160We can have different opinions.92700:31:42.280 --> 00:31:44.460We can see this differently and still be92800:31:44.460 --> 00:31:45.780a brother and sister in Christ.92900:31:46.360 --> 00:31:47.820And we try to teach that.93000:31:47.820 --> 00:31:48.660So I think it's cultural.93100:31:48.920 --> 00:31:51.280So that then in the classroom, in a93200:31:51.280 --> 00:31:54.280student club or a student organization, at a93300:31:54.280 --> 00:31:57.380campus event, at a forum or in an93400:31:57.380 --> 00:31:59.440office, a student with a faculty member, a93500:31:59.440 --> 00:32:02.080student with a staff member, there's this general93600:32:02.080 --> 00:32:03.800expectation that we can disagree.93700:32:04.020 --> 00:32:04.720It's actually okay.93800:32:05.000 --> 00:32:06.120It's actually okay to voice doubt.93900:32:06.260 --> 00:32:07.980It's actually okay to voice like, I disagree94000:32:07.980 --> 00:32:09.060with what you said in class.94100:32:09.340 --> 00:32:09.560Great.94200:32:09.720 --> 00:32:10.500Let's talk about it.94300:32:10.560 --> 00:32:11.740Let's have a discussion about it.94400:32:11.960 --> 00:32:13.120So I think ORU does a really good94500:32:13.120 --> 00:32:14.140job of creating that culture.94600:32:14.220 --> 00:32:15.880And I would say any leader that wants94700:32:15.880 --> 00:32:18.940to have, again, Gen Z feel comfortable and94800:32:18.940 --> 00:32:22.180feel like they can grow and lead, they94900:32:22.180 --> 00:32:23.000actually need that.95000:32:23.100 --> 00:32:25.080That's actually a big cultural staple for Gen95100:32:25.080 --> 00:32:27.980Z is to have a space of comfortability,95200:32:28.060 --> 00:32:30.160a safe space, if you will, of culture95300:32:30.160 --> 00:32:33.180that we can say, we can voice our95400:32:33.180 --> 00:32:34.400opinion and not get canceled.95500:32:34.640 --> 00:32:36.240We can voice our opinion and not be95600:32:36.240 --> 00:32:36.580judged.95700:32:36.640 --> 00:32:38.480We can voice our opinion and we can95800:32:38.480 --> 00:32:38.940be wrong.95900:32:39.180 --> 00:32:40.640It's actually okay if you're wrong.96000:32:40.800 --> 00:32:42.540It's okay to say, I think I messed96100:32:42.540 --> 00:32:43.060up on that.96200:32:43.140 --> 00:32:44.160And we also have that as well.96300:32:44.280 --> 00:32:45.640As you have a debate, you're like, I96400:32:45.640 --> 00:32:47.540was wrong about that.96500:32:47.700 --> 00:32:48.220That's okay.96600:32:48.260 --> 00:32:48.700We're all learning.96700:32:49.000 --> 00:32:49.700We're at a university.96800:32:49.800 --> 00:32:50.480That's what we're supposed to do.96900:32:50.560 --> 00:32:51.380We're supposed to learn.97000:32:51.560 --> 00:32:53.540So we have that built-in incentive, which97100:32:53.540 --> 00:32:53.880is nice.97200:32:54.640 --> 00:32:56.880So you guys lay this out in Honor97300:32:56.880 --> 00:32:57.280Chapel.97400:32:57.800 --> 00:32:59.300Is that where it gets set forth?97500:32:59.480 --> 00:33:01.420And how often do you do Honor Chapel?97600:33:01.580 --> 00:33:02.840Is it a one-time thing where you97700:33:02.840 --> 00:33:03.520do it regularly?97800:33:04.360 --> 00:33:05.680We do it at the beginning of every97900:33:05.680 --> 00:33:06.180school year.98000:33:06.300 --> 00:33:08.440So it's usually in August or September, depending98100:33:08.440 --> 00:33:09.000on the calendar.98200:33:09.280 --> 00:33:10.320And it kind of is like, hey, so98300:33:10.320 --> 00:33:12.320for the school year, here's a reminder.98400:33:12.540 --> 00:33:13.500So if it's your first year at ORU,98500:33:13.620 --> 00:33:15.000it's very like, oh, this is what we're98600:33:15.000 --> 00:33:15.300about.98700:33:15.720 --> 00:33:17.280If it's your second year, your third year,98800:33:17.380 --> 00:33:18.640your fourth year, if you're a grad student,98900:33:18.660 --> 00:33:20.020you've heard it several times.99000:33:20.420 --> 00:33:21.600So I think by the time you graduate,99100:33:21.700 --> 00:33:23.720it's very ingrained in you like, hey, this99200:33:23.720 --> 00:33:24.420is who we are.99300:33:24.540 --> 00:33:26.700And what's great is we're all holding each99400:33:26.700 --> 00:33:27.280other accountable.99500:33:27.560 --> 00:33:30.060So if there's students having disagreements with students,99600:33:30.880 --> 00:33:32.620some students are going to say, hey guys,99700:33:32.760 --> 00:33:33.840this isn't like who we are.99800:33:33.920 --> 00:33:35.160This is not how we disagree.99900:33:35.340 --> 00:33:36.100It's okay to disagree.100000:33:36.460 --> 00:33:37.500It's not how we disagree.100100:33:37.680 --> 00:33:39.280And our students are really good at like100200:33:39.280 --> 00:33:40.280protecting that culture.100300:33:40.380 --> 00:33:42.460And we really charge them like, hey, I'm100400:33:42.460 --> 00:33:43.760not trying to be the police for honor100500:33:43.760 --> 00:33:44.280on campus.100600:33:44.420 --> 00:33:45.600Like I hope we all are like, hey,100700:33:45.980 --> 00:33:46.600let's tan it down.100800:33:46.960 --> 00:33:48.060Like we don't need to raise our voices100900:33:48.060 --> 00:33:48.380at one another.101000:33:48.440 --> 00:33:51.060We can have a civilized conversation about literally101100:33:51.060 --> 00:33:51.620any topic.101200:33:52.160 --> 00:33:53.380And we should be able to do this,101300:33:53.480 --> 00:33:55.400Christ followers, just biblically.101400:33:55.800 --> 00:33:57.500But yeah, we do it once a year.101500:33:57.620 --> 00:33:58.260And it's really helpful.101600:33:58.520 --> 00:33:58.940I love it.101700:33:59.040 --> 00:34:00.800I think America needs to have an Honor101800:34:00.800 --> 00:34:01.200Chapel.101900:34:02.540 --> 00:34:04.220I think that would solve a lot of102000:34:04.220 --> 00:34:04.460problems.102100:34:04.680 --> 00:34:04.780Let's suggest it.102200:34:05.100 --> 00:34:05.920Let's suggest it.102300:34:05.980 --> 00:34:07.060Maybe we can make it happen.102400:34:07.060 --> 00:34:09.060Putting it in the suggestion box immediately.102500:34:09.860 --> 00:34:12.780Okay, so another question for you, I have102600:34:12.780 --> 00:34:16.380is about the spiritual practices and rhythms that102700:34:16.380 --> 00:34:18.780seem to be resonating with your students on102800:34:18.780 --> 00:34:19.360campus.102900:34:19.739 --> 00:34:20.900Is it Bible study?103000:34:21.060 --> 00:34:22.159Is it worship services?103100:34:22.400 --> 00:34:23.400Is it prayer meetings?103200:34:23.580 --> 00:34:25.800I'm curious what seems to really be working103300:34:25.800 --> 00:34:26.639with your students.103400:34:27.580 --> 00:34:29.040100% worship.103500:34:30.060 --> 00:34:31.260Gen Z loves worship.103600:34:31.360 --> 00:34:32.580They love music in general.103700:34:32.840 --> 00:34:35.880And worship is such an expression for them.103800:34:36.300 --> 00:34:39.199Again, getting them engaged in something real, not103900:34:39.199 --> 00:34:43.679digital, getting them engaged in their senses, standing,104000:34:44.199 --> 00:34:47.080kneeling, sitting, laying, hands raised.104100:34:48.520 --> 00:34:51.480They don't really care about lights, smoke, graphics.104200:34:51.639 --> 00:34:52.020It's nice.104300:34:52.159 --> 00:34:53.000They can appreciate it.104400:34:53.040 --> 00:34:56.060But they actually really love stripped down basics.104500:34:56.380 --> 00:34:57.840They really, really don't care about it being104600:34:57.840 --> 00:34:58.200crazy.104700:34:58.400 --> 00:35:01.620Our best, most popular, I guess you could104800:35:01.620 --> 00:35:04.660say, worship times on campus are when it's104900:35:04.660 --> 00:35:05.700not mainstream.105000:35:06.160 --> 00:35:09.060When it's not, we have all the best105100:35:09.060 --> 00:35:11.560lyrics on the stage and lights and smoke105200:35:11.560 --> 00:35:14.020machine going and digital effects.105300:35:14.220 --> 00:35:17.600Actually, it's best when it's pretty casual environments.105400:35:18.120 --> 00:35:19.580We have a prayer room on campus that105500:35:19.580 --> 00:35:23.900goes from Tuesday through Friday night, student-led105600:35:23.900 --> 00:35:24.560prayer and worship.105700:35:24.940 --> 00:35:27.800Small room, probably capacity of 80, maybe, maybe105800:35:27.800 --> 00:35:28.520100 in there.105900:35:29.120 --> 00:35:31.520And it's full every night, six to midnight,106000:35:31.700 --> 00:35:33.540because students are coming not for a show.106100:35:33.660 --> 00:35:34.500They just want to engage.106200:35:34.660 --> 00:35:35.620They want to pray.106300:35:35.740 --> 00:35:36.560They want to worship.106400:35:36.760 --> 00:35:37.980And it's a very engaging thing.106500:35:38.460 --> 00:35:40.820So I would say worship and prayer for106600:35:40.820 --> 00:35:42.320Gen Z pretty much globally.106700:35:42.480 --> 00:35:44.240I mean, if you look at South Korea,106800:35:44.520 --> 00:35:46.540or the revival that's happening in the UK106900:35:46.540 --> 00:35:48.060right now, or really just in Europe in107000:35:48.060 --> 00:35:49.920general, a lot of it is worship-based.107100:35:50.500 --> 00:35:52.080Engaging Gen Z in a place of worship.107200:35:52.700 --> 00:35:54.460And then out of that, I think there's107300:35:54.460 --> 00:35:56.320some great practices that are coming out of107400:35:56.320 --> 00:35:56.480it.107500:35:56.480 --> 00:35:58.760I look at guys like John Mark Comer,107600:35:59.180 --> 00:36:01.760pulling on elements of Dallas Willard and those107700:36:01.760 --> 00:36:06.980like that, who are revitalizing this call to107800:36:06.980 --> 00:36:15.720Sabbath, to disciplines, to contentment, to basically this,107900:36:16.560 --> 00:36:18.820I want to call it a minimalist theology.108000:36:19.080 --> 00:36:22.540But basically, going back to the core basics108100:36:22.540 --> 00:36:25.240of spiritual disciplines, and saying like, yeah, actually,108200:36:25.360 --> 00:36:27.200we should be those that open Scripture, we108300:36:27.200 --> 00:36:28.760should be those that Sabbath, we should be108400:36:28.760 --> 00:36:30.860those that don't have to look at social108500:36:30.860 --> 00:36:31.420media all day.108600:36:31.480 --> 00:36:33.620It's okay to have a screen limit time.108700:36:33.900 --> 00:36:36.420And seeing those as spiritual practices, not just108800:36:36.420 --> 00:36:37.620says like, oh, it's good for your mental108900:36:37.620 --> 00:36:37.900health.109000:36:37.960 --> 00:36:38.920It is good for your mental health.109100:36:39.120 --> 00:36:43.560But spiritually, I've seen that the practices of109200:36:43.560 --> 00:36:49.880even communion, confession, gathering, they're starting to rise,109300:36:49.880 --> 00:36:52.100but predominant worship and prayer, and then I109400:36:52.100 --> 00:36:53.860think it's feeding into a lot of spiritual109500:36:53.860 --> 00:36:55.000practices underneath.109600:36:55.680 --> 00:36:56.660Super interesting.109700:36:57.460 --> 00:37:00.320So when people think of college campuses, Augustine,109800:37:00.400 --> 00:37:02.720they're often, I think, thinking of the stories109900:37:02.720 --> 00:37:04.600that we're hearing right now at some of110000:37:04.600 --> 00:37:08.200like the big state schools, where, you know,110100:37:08.260 --> 00:37:11.340there are these big revival concerts, like kids110200:37:11.340 --> 00:37:14.360getting baptized, like becoming followers of Christ for110300:37:14.360 --> 00:37:14.980the first time.110400:37:14.980 --> 00:37:15.680Yeah.110500:37:15.780 --> 00:37:18.980Here at ORU, it's a Christian college, right?110600:37:19.100 --> 00:37:21.480So the kids who are coming are Christian,110700:37:21.960 --> 00:37:24.680and presumably already baptized, right?110800:37:24.740 --> 00:37:26.400But I'm curious to hear from you, like,110900:37:26.560 --> 00:37:29.960what are some of the milestones for a111000:37:29.960 --> 00:37:33.280Christian college that you think of, like, in111100:37:33.280 --> 00:37:35.940terms of life transformation, if they already are111200:37:35.940 --> 00:37:36.400Christians?111300:37:37.900 --> 00:37:39.120Yeah, that's a good question.111400:37:39.300 --> 00:37:42.040I think it's more of a discipleship mentality.111500:37:42.740 --> 00:37:45.300We obviously have students that come that are111600:37:45.300 --> 00:37:47.860Christian by name, but not by lifestyle.111700:37:48.160 --> 00:37:51.580So then they have transformation in that discipleship111800:37:51.580 --> 00:37:52.020process.111900:37:52.440 --> 00:37:55.680But we also have people coming, again, we've112000:37:55.680 --> 00:37:57.440learned not to assume pretty much about anything112100:37:57.440 --> 00:37:58.300in the Christian world.112200:37:58.380 --> 00:37:59.460You can say you're a Christian, what does112300:37:59.460 --> 00:37:59.940that mean?112400:38:00.340 --> 00:38:02.880And hey, you say you're from this denomination,112500:38:03.040 --> 00:38:04.040what does that mean to you?112600:38:05.200 --> 00:38:07.560Because even students, we have students that come112700:38:07.560 --> 00:38:09.580that have never been baptized, but they've followed112800:38:09.580 --> 00:38:10.280Christ their whole life.112900:38:10.360 --> 00:38:12.500They've just never thought baptism was important.113000:38:13.420 --> 00:38:15.400So we have conversations like, is baptism important?113100:38:15.680 --> 00:38:16.700Should we be baptized?113200:38:17.320 --> 00:38:19.760And depending on your faith denomination background, some113300:38:19.760 --> 00:38:21.240are like, I'm sure you want to, and113400:38:21.240 --> 00:38:22.700other people are like, it's essential for your113500:38:22.700 --> 00:38:22.900faith.113600:38:23.080 --> 00:38:25.020So we have people coming from all streams.113700:38:25.440 --> 00:38:28.200We have people coming with different understandings and113800:38:28.200 --> 00:38:30.400relationship with the Holy Spirit, some from Pentecostal113900:38:30.400 --> 00:38:33.640charismatic circles, some from Baptist evangelical, and they114000:38:33.640 --> 00:38:34.540have different views on the Holy Spirit.114100:38:34.680 --> 00:38:37.020So again, I think the discipleship process is114200:38:37.020 --> 00:38:41.260okay, you're on this continuum of growth with114300:38:41.260 --> 00:38:41.860Christ.114400:38:42.580 --> 00:38:44.700And if the goal is Christ likeness, where114500:38:44.700 --> 00:38:45.960are you in that journey?114600:38:46.620 --> 00:38:48.660So you could be full of the Holy114700:38:48.660 --> 00:38:50.780Spirit operating in the gifts and you love114800:38:50.780 --> 00:38:53.440worship and you love all that, but your114900:38:53.440 --> 00:38:55.920lifestyle outside of the building, it doesn't match115000:38:55.920 --> 00:38:58.060what's inside the building.115100:38:58.400 --> 00:39:00.740And so we're walking with that person more115200:39:00.740 --> 00:39:01.400through lifestyle.115300:39:01.940 --> 00:39:03.560And other people, man, they're living right, they're115400:39:03.560 --> 00:39:04.620doing all that kind of stuff, but they115500:39:04.620 --> 00:39:06.220don't actually live to live for God.115600:39:06.300 --> 00:39:07.360They just want to be a good person.115700:39:07.600 --> 00:39:08.520They want to have a good family and115800:39:08.520 --> 00:39:11.060they just want to live a good American115900:39:11.060 --> 00:39:14.840Christianity, white picket fence, have a good life.116000:39:15.660 --> 00:39:17.280Hey, that's good too, but I think there's116100:39:17.280 --> 00:39:18.940probably more depth for you there.116200:39:19.260 --> 00:39:20.260Or there's some people that just come as116300:39:20.260 --> 00:39:22.900Christians and they say they're Christian, and it's116400:39:22.900 --> 00:39:24.040an excuse to do what they want.116500:39:24.180 --> 00:39:26.580And so there's all sorts of on the116600:39:26.580 --> 00:39:29.360continuum of like, if a hundred is I'm116700:39:29.360 --> 00:39:31.440a hundred percent like Christ and zero is116800:39:31.440 --> 00:39:33.840I'm not a Christian, we got people all116900:39:33.840 --> 00:39:34.840along the different realms.117000:39:35.000 --> 00:39:36.500And so our staff and faculty, what we117100:39:36.500 --> 00:39:37.780do is we say, hey, let's figure out117200:39:37.780 --> 00:39:39.640where the student is and let's move them117300:39:39.640 --> 00:39:42.020forward into Christ's likeness, whatever that means for117400:39:42.020 --> 00:39:42.240them.117500:39:42.680 --> 00:39:43.840But again, I think that's why Gen Z117600:39:43.840 --> 00:39:47.200is so cool because they are so individualized117700:39:47.200 --> 00:39:49.300that it's pretty easy to find out where117800:39:49.300 --> 00:39:51.580they are because they're not thinking groupthink.117900:39:51.780 --> 00:39:53.400They're not like millennials where it's like, well,118000:39:53.420 --> 00:39:54.240it's just me and my friends.118100:39:54.280 --> 00:39:55.520And we all believe the same thing.118200:39:55.560 --> 00:39:58.060It's like, no, Gen Z believes things very118300:39:58.060 --> 00:39:59.320differently and has different convictions.118400:39:59.660 --> 00:40:01.160And so it's actually really easy to figure118500:40:01.160 --> 00:40:03.020out where they are in continuum of Christ's118600:40:03.020 --> 00:40:03.340likeness.118700:40:03.420 --> 00:40:04.200And then I think it's just going to118800:40:04.200 --> 00:40:06.100scripture and being like, okay, so where do118900:40:06.100 --> 00:40:07.420you need to become more like Christ?119000:40:07.640 --> 00:40:09.960And it's, again, not usually too hard to119100:40:09.960 --> 00:40:10.540figure out.119200:40:11.040 --> 00:40:12.700And it's just walking with them in that119300:40:12.700 --> 00:40:12.980journey.119400:40:13.160 --> 00:40:14.780So in the two to four years that119500:40:14.780 --> 00:40:17.740they're here on campus, we're not going to119600:40:17.740 --> 00:40:18.380get them to a hundred.119700:40:18.700 --> 00:40:19.900And we know that, like, that's not our119800:40:19.900 --> 00:40:20.140job.119900:40:20.220 --> 00:40:21.880They have a lifetime of pursuing Jesus.120000:40:22.240 --> 00:40:24.100But if we take them from a five120100:40:24.100 --> 00:40:26.160to a 15 or from a 15 to120200:40:26.160 --> 00:40:28.68020 or a 20 to 50, like, great.120300:40:28.900 --> 00:40:31.120We're going to help them as hungry as120400:40:31.120 --> 00:40:32.520they are, as open as they are, as120500:40:32.520 --> 00:40:33.440willing as they are.120600:40:33.840 --> 00:40:35.160And we're here to be guides and support120700:40:35.160 --> 00:40:35.540for them.120800:40:36.060 --> 00:40:36.960So great.120900:40:37.500 --> 00:40:39.380Well, so I think you've touched on this121000:40:39.380 --> 00:40:42.100a little bit, but as Gen Z graduates121100:40:42.100 --> 00:40:47.160from college and they are looking for a121200:40:47.160 --> 00:40:50.600church in their new town or city, what121300:40:50.600 --> 00:40:51.760do you think they're going to be looking121400:40:51.760 --> 00:40:54.240for in a church and from their church121500:40:54.240 --> 00:40:54.560leaders?121600:41:01.200 --> 00:41:04.000I think the first thing that my team121700:41:04.000 --> 00:41:07.700and I are really trying to encourage greatly121800:41:08.240 --> 00:41:10.080is engagement with a local church.121900:41:11.380 --> 00:41:14.860A lot of Gen Z feels like they122000:41:14.860 --> 00:41:16.000might not need a local church.122100:41:17.440 --> 00:41:18.760I think they look at some of the122200:41:18.760 --> 00:41:19.820stuff in the church and they say it's122300:41:19.820 --> 00:41:20.080messy.122400:41:20.360 --> 00:41:22.480They don't do anything with it or it's122500:41:22.480 --> 00:41:23.060too big.122600:41:23.280 --> 00:41:24.100It's too small.122700:41:24.460 --> 00:41:25.480It's not for me.122800:41:25.700 --> 00:41:27.140And there's a lot of excuses that come122900:41:27.140 --> 00:41:27.460with that.123000:41:27.540 --> 00:41:28.980And I think millennials it's similar, but I123100:41:28.980 --> 00:41:32.640would say Gen Z, it's going to be123200:41:32.640 --> 00:41:34.040interesting to see what Gen Z does with123300:41:34.560 --> 00:41:36.740quote unquote, the local church over the next123400:41:36.740 --> 00:41:37.720decade or so.123500:41:38.400 --> 00:41:40.160They're going to really push the envelope for123600:41:40.160 --> 00:41:42.980what the local church should look like in123700:41:42.980 --> 00:41:44.040their opinion, in their eyes.123800:41:44.580 --> 00:41:45.820And so I think there'll be some interesting123900:41:45.820 --> 00:41:47.880dynamics with millennials and maybe even the older124000:41:47.880 --> 00:41:51.340generation with Gen Z coming into the church124100:41:51.340 --> 00:41:55.220on staff, in leadership, pushing the envelope because124200:41:55.220 --> 00:41:57.560a lot of them, they're perfectly content if124300:41:57.560 --> 00:41:58.980once a week they met up with 20124400:41:58.980 --> 00:42:00.940of their friends around a fire and worshiped124500:42:00.940 --> 00:42:03.000in their living room and they would call124600:42:03.000 --> 00:42:03.560that church.124700:42:04.100 --> 00:42:06.920And I think even talking about what is124800:42:06.920 --> 00:42:10.160a church, why does a church exist?124900:42:10.780 --> 00:42:12.460A lot of the conversations you may have125000:42:12.460 --> 00:42:14.160heard this, we are the church.125100:42:14.300 --> 00:42:16.080We don't need to have a pastor.125200:42:16.260 --> 00:42:17.360We don't need to have a building.125300:42:17.540 --> 00:42:18.820We don't need to have ministries.125400:42:19.360 --> 00:42:20.060We are the church.125500:42:20.160 --> 00:42:21.240We're just going to do life together.125600:42:21.240 --> 00:42:22.420We're going to go back to the original125700:42:22.420 --> 00:42:24.700acts where we just gather and we pray125800:42:24.700 --> 00:42:26.340and we worship and we fast and we125900:42:26.340 --> 00:42:27.400give everything to one another.126000:42:27.860 --> 00:42:29.300And I think it's like a good spirit126100:42:29.300 --> 00:42:32.100that Gen Z has, but I think there's126200:42:32.100 --> 00:42:36.880still the necessity of format and structure and126300:42:36.880 --> 00:42:39.300accountability of a church body.126400:42:39.940 --> 00:42:42.700And also having a multi-generational, I think126500:42:42.700 --> 00:42:43.300is really important.126600:42:44.020 --> 00:42:46.640But all that said, how they will impact126700:42:46.640 --> 00:42:48.280those churches as they go into these places126800:42:48.280 --> 00:42:49.720is they're going to be looking for that126900:42:49.720 --> 00:42:52.300kind of authentic Christianity in their mind.127000:42:52.580 --> 00:42:54.480So you're not going to get them through127100:42:54.480 --> 00:42:54.940gimmicks.127200:42:55.140 --> 00:42:56.580You're not going to make them stay because127300:42:57.000 --> 00:42:58.300you spent a lot of money on your127400:42:58.300 --> 00:42:58.960sound system.127500:42:59.660 --> 00:43:00.920You're going to get them to stay because127600:43:00.920 --> 00:43:02.360like, man, this is authentic worship.127700:43:02.540 --> 00:43:03.220This is real.127800:43:04.240 --> 00:43:05.580The pastor is willing to get off the127900:43:05.580 --> 00:43:07.140stage and talk to me and have relationship128000:43:07.140 --> 00:43:07.500with me.128100:43:07.540 --> 00:43:08.740It's not a VIP pastor.128200:43:09.580 --> 00:43:11.680And so they're looking for that authentic stuff.128300:43:11.760 --> 00:43:13.920And I hear that a lot from Gen128400:43:13.920 --> 00:43:14.060Z.128500:43:14.260 --> 00:43:15.280And so I think as pastors and leaders128600:43:15.280 --> 00:43:17.760are accepting Gen Z into their churches, especially128700:43:17.760 --> 00:43:19.760after they graduate, they're going to be looking128800:43:19.760 --> 00:43:20.900for authenticity.128900:43:21.400 --> 00:43:22.760And I know that word is probably overused129000:43:22.760 --> 00:43:26.360a lot, but truly authentic worship, authentic prayer,129100:43:26.540 --> 00:43:29.860authentic community, not forced, not staged, no agendas,129200:43:30.160 --> 00:43:33.140just we're going to worship and we're not129300:43:33.140 --> 00:43:34.500going to have our three songs set list129400:43:34.500 --> 00:43:35.600and move on with the service.129500:43:35.740 --> 00:43:36.800We're going to take our time.129600:43:37.100 --> 00:43:38.020If the pastor wants to go a little129700:43:38.020 --> 00:43:40.580bit long because it's an authentic overflow, great.129800:43:40.660 --> 00:43:41.800If ministry time is going to go long,129900:43:42.120 --> 00:43:43.260great because it's authentic.130000:43:43.460 --> 00:43:45.800They don't give me one hour because I130100:43:45.800 --> 00:43:46.140want to go.130200:43:46.600 --> 00:43:47.820They're not like that.130300:43:48.220 --> 00:43:49.460They want to take their time.130400:43:49.620 --> 00:43:51.760So that's my perspective on it.130500:43:52.300 --> 00:43:54.280Again, that's a pretty big generalization for Gen130600:43:54.280 --> 00:43:55.740Z, but just for the students that I130700:43:55.740 --> 00:43:55.900see.130800:43:56.540 --> 00:43:57.780I love what you said.130900:43:58.160 --> 00:43:59.980To me, what I hear from what you131000:43:59.980 --> 00:44:02.820said is that the church really needs Gen131100:44:02.820 --> 00:44:06.320Z, that they will ask the questions and131200:44:06.320 --> 00:44:10.540they will bring the perspective that can help131300:44:10.540 --> 00:44:13.340churches be the acts to church again, that131400:44:13.340 --> 00:44:15.020I think we all want to be, make131500:44:15.020 --> 00:44:16.040the church the church.131600:44:16.140 --> 00:44:17.340I think it'll be a great thing.131700:44:17.560 --> 00:44:19.500They need the church and the church needs131800:44:19.500 --> 00:44:20.100Gen Z.131900:44:20.260 --> 00:44:20.960One hundred percent.132000:44:21.160 --> 00:44:23.040And I've told students and I've tried to132100:44:23.040 --> 00:44:24.540coach them on this because, again, that Peter132200:44:24.540 --> 00:44:27.080thing is real, especially going into a local132300:44:27.080 --> 00:44:28.580church, you're called to ministry, you go into132400:44:28.580 --> 00:44:29.960a local church and you think, like, I'm132500:44:29.960 --> 00:44:32.140going to change this whole church because I'm132600:44:32.140 --> 00:44:33.780here, the 22-year-old who just graduated,132700:44:34.420 --> 00:44:35.780and teaching them humility.132800:44:36.080 --> 00:44:37.080And I think one of the things I've132900:44:37.080 --> 00:44:38.760encouraged them to do, which I would say133000:44:38.760 --> 00:44:40.160if you're a pastor or leader right now,133100:44:40.300 --> 00:44:42.240be prepared, because even if I didn't encourage133200:44:42.240 --> 00:44:44.160this, they're coming and they're going to ask133300:44:44.160 --> 00:44:44.620why.133400:44:45.300 --> 00:44:47.660And if you can't give a why, Gen133500:44:47.660 --> 00:44:48.860Z is going to have a really hard133600:44:48.860 --> 00:44:49.420time with that.133700:44:49.840 --> 00:44:51.080So, hey, why do we only do three133800:44:51.080 --> 00:44:51.680songs in worship?133900:44:52.880 --> 00:44:54.920And if the honest answer from a pastor134000:44:54.920 --> 00:44:56.280is, well, because we're trying to keep it134100:44:56.280 --> 00:44:58.160tight, we're trying to keep it short, or134200:44:58.160 --> 00:44:59.840I want more time to preach or whatever134300:44:59.840 --> 00:45:01.600their honest answer is, they could come up134400:45:01.600 --> 00:45:02.860with some fluff answer, but Gen Z is134500:45:02.860 --> 00:45:04.380going to look at it and be it's134600:45:04.380 --> 00:45:05.740because you want church to be one hour.134700:45:06.220 --> 00:45:06.660That's why.134800:45:07.060 --> 00:45:08.960They're going to interpret that, and they're going134900:45:08.960 --> 00:45:11.220to deem that as, you're not really authentic135000:45:11.220 --> 00:45:12.680then, you're on a time.135100:45:12.860 --> 00:45:15.500This is a professional church.135200:45:15.740 --> 00:45:19.100This is a high corporation, you know what135300:45:19.100 --> 00:45:19.320I mean?135400:45:19.600 --> 00:45:21.480And they like megachurches, so they're not necessarily135500:45:21.480 --> 00:45:21.980against it.135600:45:22.360 --> 00:45:24.600But I think they want to know the135700:45:24.600 --> 00:45:26.380real why behind everything.135800:45:26.920 --> 00:45:29.140And if you can't give them a why,135900:45:29.260 --> 00:45:30.080they're going to get frustrated.136000:45:30.080 --> 00:45:32.080Or if you give them a fake why,136100:45:32.320 --> 00:45:33.700they're going to see right through it.136200:45:33.840 --> 00:45:37.140Because again, there's way more famous pastors than136300:45:37.140 --> 00:45:37.300you.136400:45:37.560 --> 00:45:39.300There's churches that do things better than you.136500:45:39.380 --> 00:45:40.400They can just look online.136600:45:40.720 --> 00:45:41.640They can go on social media.136700:45:41.760 --> 00:45:42.740They can watch church online.136800:45:43.060 --> 00:45:46.580So the production value has zero value to136900:45:46.580 --> 00:45:46.780them.137000:45:47.400 --> 00:45:51.020Engagement and authenticity has 100% of the137100:45:51.020 --> 00:45:51.620value for them.137200:45:51.740 --> 00:45:53.460So don't try to impress Gen Z and137300:45:53.460 --> 00:45:54.300don't try to fluff them.137400:45:54.560 --> 00:45:56.660Honestly, just be authentic, be honest with them.137500:45:56.940 --> 00:45:59.000Yeah, that's really, really good advice.137600:45:59.360 --> 00:46:00.740All right, I'm going to leave it here137700:46:00.740 --> 00:46:03.020with one final question for you, Augustine.137800:46:03.140 --> 00:46:06.340What is giving you the most hope about137900:46:06.340 --> 00:46:09.320the next generation of Christian leaders that are138000:46:09.320 --> 00:46:10.460rising up right now?138100:46:15.790 --> 00:46:18.270I think about 1 Timothy 4.12, where138200:46:18.270 --> 00:46:20.430Paul tells Timothy, don't let anyone look down138300:46:20.430 --> 00:46:22.290on you because you're young, but set an138400:46:22.290 --> 00:46:25.810example for all believers through faith, speech, conduct,138500:46:26.030 --> 00:46:26.830love, purity.138600:46:27.590 --> 00:46:29.070And I see a generation that wants to138700:46:29.070 --> 00:46:29.450do that.138800:46:29.690 --> 00:46:31.490They want to set the example for all138900:46:31.490 --> 00:46:33.610believers, not just their peers, not just those139000:46:33.610 --> 00:46:34.850that are younger than them.139100:46:35.090 --> 00:46:36.730They want to set an example for the139200:46:36.730 --> 00:46:37.130world.139300:46:38.110 --> 00:46:40.350And I think it's easy to get cynical139400:46:40.350 --> 00:46:40.990in ministry.139500:46:41.410 --> 00:46:43.010If you're a pastor or a leader and139600:46:43.010 --> 00:46:44.910you have been leading for a while, trust139700:46:44.910 --> 00:46:46.770me, I know from my 10 years of139800:46:46.770 --> 00:46:48.690doing this, you get burned.139900:46:49.450 --> 00:46:50.350Things are hard.140000:46:50.950 --> 00:46:52.070People leave.140100:46:52.890 --> 00:46:55.210Young people do things that are hurtful to140200:46:55.210 --> 00:46:55.510you.140300:46:55.510 --> 00:46:57.310So it's easy to become cynical towards the140400:46:57.310 --> 00:46:58.010next generation.140500:46:59.050 --> 00:47:01.370But my prayer and what gives me hope140600:47:01.370 --> 00:47:04.410for it is, you know, Paul tells Timothy,140700:47:04.550 --> 00:47:05.730don't let anyone look down on you.140800:47:06.310 --> 00:47:07.510I don't want to look down on young140900:47:07.510 --> 00:47:07.770people.141000:47:08.150 --> 00:47:09.130I want to believe in them.141100:47:09.670 --> 00:47:10.870And I think if you look at the141200:47:10.870 --> 00:47:13.230heart of Jesus, he's very passionate about young141300:47:13.230 --> 00:47:13.530people.141400:47:13.650 --> 00:47:16.530The disciples were young people, most likely teenagers141500:47:16.530 --> 00:47:17.690or going into their 20s.141600:47:18.910 --> 00:47:20.610He looks at children and says, let the141700:47:20.610 --> 00:47:21.530little children come to me.141800:47:21.650 --> 00:47:22.990Don't turn them away from me.141900:47:23.450 --> 00:47:25.650The example of Jesus is I believe in142000:47:25.650 --> 00:47:26.110young people.142100:47:26.610 --> 00:47:28.550And so if that's Jesus saying, I believe142200:47:28.550 --> 00:47:31.350in young people enough, he didn't pick Pharisees142300:47:31.350 --> 00:47:33.330who'd been in ministry for 40 years and142400:47:33.330 --> 00:47:34.430said, you be my disciples.142500:47:34.830 --> 00:47:36.390He picked nobodies.142600:47:36.670 --> 00:47:37.610He picked zealots.142700:47:37.810 --> 00:47:38.950He picked tax collectors.142800:47:39.110 --> 00:47:40.150He picked Peter.142900:47:40.470 --> 00:47:42.790And he said, hey, I want you guys,143000:47:43.110 --> 00:47:46.850the rough around the edges, those that probably143100:47:46.850 --> 00:47:50.210aren't educated enough, probably don't have as much143200:47:50.210 --> 00:47:53.870experience or excellence or discernment or wisdom as143300:47:53.870 --> 00:47:55.390some of the Pharisees or some of the143400:47:55.390 --> 00:47:56.390Roman leaders.143500:47:56.590 --> 00:48:00.010I could have picked better people, but he143600:48:00.010 --> 00:48:00.850went with young people.143700:48:01.690 --> 00:48:03.190And so I think that just sets an143800:48:03.190 --> 00:48:06.610example for the church, for anyone, if you're143900:48:06.610 --> 00:48:09.290in business or engineering or nursing, don't look144000:48:09.290 --> 00:48:10.190down on young people.144100:48:11.230 --> 00:48:12.750They're called to set an example.144200:48:12.890 --> 00:48:13.750That's what scripture says.144300:48:14.210 --> 00:48:16.070So we as an older generation, how can144400:48:16.070 --> 00:48:17.150we help them set the example?144500:48:17.290 --> 00:48:19.650How can we promote them up, not just144600:48:19.650 --> 00:48:21.530in position, but in opportunity?144700:48:21.830 --> 00:48:23.310How do we put them up and say,144800:48:23.430 --> 00:48:24.530hey, I believe in you.144900:48:24.730 --> 00:48:25.730And I think all of us, if we145000:48:25.730 --> 00:48:27.610were honest, this also keeps me with hope145100:48:27.610 --> 00:48:29.770is there was someone who believed in me145200:48:29.770 --> 00:48:31.890and put me in position as a 22145300:48:31.890 --> 00:48:34.550year old who gave me opportunities that I'm145400:48:34.550 --> 00:48:35.670like, wow, why are you giving that to145500:48:35.670 --> 00:48:35.910me?145600:48:35.990 --> 00:48:37.170Because someone believed in me.145700:48:37.630 --> 00:48:39.790And I think when someone believes in Gen145800:48:39.790 --> 00:48:42.170Z, they will run through a wall for145900:48:42.170 --> 00:48:42.350you.146000:48:42.510 --> 00:48:44.990Like they will go and do things that146100:48:44.990 --> 00:48:46.350maybe a lot of your other staff wouldn't146200:48:46.350 --> 00:48:47.850do because they've gotten tired.146300:48:48.070 --> 00:48:49.010They've gotten older.146400:48:49.170 --> 00:48:51.710They've, they've slowed down in their pace of146500:48:51.710 --> 00:48:52.750what they like to run.146600:48:53.130 --> 00:48:54.170Gen Z is ready to run.146700:48:54.450 --> 00:48:57.050So don't try to saddle them and hold146800:48:57.050 --> 00:48:57.430them back.146900:48:57.490 --> 00:48:58.970Like let them run, let them do what147000:48:58.970 --> 00:48:59.610they're called to do.147100:48:59.830 --> 00:49:01.930Give them wisdom, show them the past, like,147200:49:02.270 --> 00:49:03.890you know, critique them when you need to147300:49:03.890 --> 00:49:05.690critique them, correct them when you need to147400:49:05.690 --> 00:49:07.630correct them, but let it be fueled by147500:49:07.630 --> 00:49:12.890belief and hope, not in a cynicism or147600:49:12.890 --> 00:49:13.310doubt.147700:49:14.330 --> 00:49:15.670Jesus doesn't doubt them.147800:49:16.050 --> 00:49:18.150Jesus isn't cynical towards the next generation.147900:49:18.390 --> 00:49:20.070So I don't want to be either.148000:49:20.570 --> 00:49:21.490So good.148100:49:21.810 --> 00:49:22.750Thank you, Augustine.148200:49:22.810 --> 00:49:26.130This has been a master class for anyone148300:49:26.130 --> 00:49:30.010who is looking to mentor or employ or148400:49:30.010 --> 00:49:32.710even just welcome Gen Z into their church,148500:49:32.810 --> 00:49:34.910their community, their ministries, their workplaces.148600:49:35.470 --> 00:49:36.110Thank you.148700:49:36.190 --> 00:49:37.230Thank you for this insight.148800:49:37.330 --> 00:49:39.210It's been incredibly helpful to me and I148900:49:39.210 --> 00:49:40.950know to all the leaders who are listening149000:49:40.950 --> 00:49:41.430out there.149100:49:42.510 --> 00:49:42.810Absolutely.149200:49:43.010 --> 00:49:43.730Thanks for having me.149300:49:43.830 --> 00:49:45.350And I just want to encourage all ministry149400:49:45.350 --> 00:49:46.590and church leaders out there.149500:49:46.750 --> 00:49:48.050Like God's doing something.149600:49:48.150 --> 00:49:49.170You get to be a part of it.149700:49:49.830 --> 00:49:51.630And let's welcome Gen Z into it.149800:49:51.730 --> 00:49:52.490They're, they're awesome.149900:49:52.590 --> 00:49:54.290They're not perfect, but they're awesome.150000:49:54.870 --> 00:49:55.450So good.150100:49:55.630 --> 00:49:56.030So good.150200:49:56.150 --> 00:49:56.910Thank you, Augustine.