Brooklyn on Monday

00:01 - Speaker 1 We're living in a multi-ethnic world today, or America, we still got a ways to go in terms of in our nation, we're seeing that now. Sure, but civil rights happen. We can ride the bus, me, and you can sit in this room today. Yeah 100% Because of what he believed in and it's hey, we're better together. He called it the beloved community, yes, which then coincided with the principles of the kingdom. That really speaks to this idea that we really are better together. 00:30 - Speaker 2 Welcome to Faithly Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys, through their ministry work and everyday life Brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders. Learn more at faithlyco. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired on the Faithly Stories podcast. 00:58 - Speaker 3 Pastor Adam Durso. So here sitting with my good friend Pastor Sam Collier. Welcome to Faithly Stories Podcast and my brother. I'm glad to sit here with you and talk a little bit about your story man AD. Yeah, brother. 01:14 - Speaker 1 Can I shake your hand? 01:14 - Speaker 3 You know it. You know it we're going to break all the rules. Anyway, we're going to break them. There's going to be no other podcast like this podcast we 30 seconds into the podcast and we already broke the rule. They're like disclaimer in the bio section, warning, and we shake hands. 01:35 - Speaker 1 Bro, it's an honor to be here, like just you know. Well, we'll get to this later, but I mean people need to know how much you mean to me and what you've done for me in the hall Right At 2 am, the calls and the coaching session, I mean. 01:50 - Speaker 3 So you know, from the moment I met you, I felt like an instant connection. I was like, man, this is, this dude is real and it's just been unfolding since then. Yeah, and although I feel like our relationship is not years long less than a year it's gone deep, fast, fast. Yeah. The conversation we had last night, you know the vulnerability, the sharing, all that stuff, man, it's been phenomenal and I watched you. 02:24 I mean, we're sitting here and the audience doesn't realize we're in new york city, even though we're on a beat you know, saying we're in new york city, we just finished 30 for 30, which is supposed to be 30 hours with 30 pastors, but we had like 70 plus. Yeah, if I hear another joke about that, you know 78 and a half pastors right still right, still wondering who the half is. 02:45 But whatever, I saw you in Atlanta. Yeah, you know, we were in your hometown where you pastor and I said, hey, man, would you give the devotional thought which we always do outside? And it was just beautiful, and I mean sky was beautiful, and you just shared your story with a level of vulnerability and the ministry leaders that are watching that might see Sam, and they might say, man, this guy's a phenomenal communicator. And look at this, look at that man, you've been on a journey for a minute now. Yeah, can you share a little bit of your story with the audience? 03:20 - Speaker 2 man. 03:20 - Speaker 3 Oh my gosh, how long we got. 03:23 - Speaker 1 You did not warn me about this man, you know it's um, it has been um, a ton of peaks and a ton of valley. Yeah, and it's interesting, um, I think it was bishop bronner that said here I think in new york this is long Beach. I didn't know New York had a Long Beach. 03:43 - Speaker 3 Exactly, I was like you want LA Right. I thought it was in Cali Right. 03:48 - Speaker 1 But he said, you know it was either him or you. I believe I think y'all shared in this sentiment that you learn the greatest lessons in the valley. 03:57 - Speaker 3 Yeah. 03:57 - Speaker 1 That's where you get your strength. Yes, and that's been a large part of my journey. Um, and that's been a large part of my journey. You know, I started doing ministry when I was 16. Okay, so I'm 36 now. Okay, so it's been 20 years, 20 years, and, you know, in the black context, I grew up in the black context. 04:12 - Speaker 3 Yes. 04:13 - Speaker 1 Um, you just kind of, if you're talented, you love God. They just kind of give you a mic and like, hey, figure it out, figure it out, um, and, and you can play. Yes, that's how I started doing music music ministry and I got my first record deal when I was 16 with Bishop Eddie Long. Okay, and so this is when he was at the height. This was when Usher and Tyler Perry and Kirk Franklin and Rodney Jerkins were in his office after church Right right Ludacris. You know, after church, right right Ludicrous. 04:44 - Speaker 3 Yes. 04:44 - Speaker 1 You know, after church, yes, and so getting the opportunity to potentially have a record deal with him was like oh my gosh, and I went from literally just meeting him to three months later meeting all these guys and being in a meeting with Kirk and singing for Kirk and all of this other stuff. And I did that for a little bit of a season and then transitioned to my first ministry job at Ebenezer. Okay, we don't have time to go through the ups and the downs or just the rounds, yeah, but at Ebenezer I'll give you a quick story. This is I'm going to try to, because you said, Tony, be quick. I'm going to try to be brief. I got like a million stories in a story, but I'll tell you a quick because this is so I am. They make me youth choir director and I was. I hated choirs at the time. I grew up on R&B music. 05:33 - Speaker 3 Okay. 05:33 - Speaker 1 And when they now this is you know, this is the Ebenezer. Yeah, this is right. When Dr Raphael Warnock became pastor Sure, they had just voted him in. He had been there maybe a year, maybe two years, maybe. Okay, he was not into politics at the time, yep. And when they put me over the youth choir, I started the rehearsal and there was one person at the rehearsal, one, and I was like what am I doing? You know, like they do, can you call a choir one? Like, if you got one member, it's a voice. It was a voice lesson and I'm playing, you know. 06:09 And so the lord tells you is she talented at least yeah, okay, that'll save you, though she's like 12 and it's her and her mother sitting in the back. Okay, and so her mother sits in the back because she's 12. Her mother sits in the back the whole time because it's just her. You know she's not gonna leave this 12 year old with this guy at Ebenezer right and um. So the Lord tells me, teach this 12 year old like it's 30 people in the room. 06:35 So I'm like you know I'm doing the moves and, um, she stands and I'm teaching her. I'm like, let's do our scales. This goes on for four weeks, weeks. Nobody ever joins the choir. It's me, this girl and her mother for four weeks. So we get really close because it's just us in the room and it's weird. So after four weeks her mother gets upset. She's like this is ridiculous. I'm telling the pastor I guess she had a relationship with the pastor. I'm telling the pastor he needs to make an announcement and get more people in his choir so that fifth Sunday he makes an announcement. 07:07 Youth choir rehearsal is this week. If you're da-da-da-da-da, I end up meeting the youth pastor. I didn't know they had a youth pastor. It's been four weeks. It's 40 people in the choir the next week. So after choir rehearsal is done, I'm excited, whatever. And I'm meeting the youth pastor in the parking lot and this is a big part of my ministry. Like this is like the beginning of, I think, launching whatever it is that the Lord is going to do. 07:31 I'm in the parking lot talking to the youth leader. I tell him hold on for a second and I go say bye to the mother who's been with me for the last four weeks and then I come back and he's like manall got, y'all are really close. I'm like I mean it's just been us. He's like do you know who that is? And I'm like no, that's, that's Angela, you know. He said that is Martin Luther King Jr's niece, wow. And so I had been teaching his niece and his great niece for four weeks. I I mean it was insane and we had gotten close. Yeah, I mean I got chills when he said it. Yeah, like her mother is Dr King's sister, wow, and her cousin is Bernice King Wow, and all of these. And she's on the board of the King Center and I had no idea. I had no idea because she was kind of she kind of hung in the back. Sure idea who? I had no idea because she was kind of she kind of hung in the back. 08:26 - Speaker 3 I'm like now it makes sense that you know the past right exactly. 08:28 - Speaker 1 You got the hotline you can crawl over, you can hit you know, you know being with all the presidents and all these other things and um, but she asked me to be her daughter's mentor and so I mentored her daughter for about three or four years and went to the emmys with them. And I mean her name, angela Watkins, dr Angela Watkins. She's a tenured professor at Spelman and some other things, but her influence, I mean that, turned into me being close to Dr Bernice King for a while and I studied at the King Center in terms of Kingian philosophy for a season and kind of in that, went back to New. Okay, john gray was there, yeah, um, he went to. I think you told me about this that you knew him when he started doing comedy, um, and so he went. He went on the road with tv1. I uh took his job at um, new birth, over youth choirs, praise teams, bands in some environments. New birth went through a few things I transitioned out of that. I was with Andy Stanley for eight years Pause. 09:27 - Speaker 3 Yep, I get everything up to this point. Yep, you grew up in the black church, you're talented, you're gifted Music, ebenezer New Birth, kirk Rodney yeah, it all makes sense. Andy Stanley feels a little bit like a left turn, like you just go bring that up right here and be like oh, and, by the way, I just I went to the whitest possible church in the Atlanta area In Atlanta In. Atlanta. 10:04 For the international crowd that doesn't know Like birthplace and civil rights, like this is Dr King Right? I went from Dr King's church to Andy Stanley's church. I'm just saying, and you don't, you didn't like have like a moment, like you were there for like eight years, eight years. 10:22 - Speaker 1 My longest ministry stint. 10:25 - Speaker 3 That feels like a fish out of water a little bit. How is navigating? You know you got guys that are, you know, dealing in diverse environments. Right, I know. For me, I thought, because all of my best friends were black, there's no way I could ever, ever have a bias. 10:43 - Speaker 1 Yeah. 10:43 - Speaker 3 And it wasn't until after 20 years and a failed succession plan of leaving a church and then moving to be under Pastor Bernard. Yeah, and we prayed for the first time. We stopped the service and we prayed for an unarmed black man in service and I thought to myself. I went upstairs to the conference room, you know where at the time we had multiple services and pastor would have breakfast and we'd have breakfast room. 11:12 And I thought I can remember over 20 years distinctly stopping services for police officers who were killed. I officiated a service. Then 15,000 police officers show up and Biden, who was the vice president at the time, and our governor and our mayor, and the cardinal and Pastor Bernard, they gave the eulogy. I didn't realize that we had never stopped a service to pray for an unarmed black man or woman and in that moment and I confessed it to Pastor Bernard and he said you'll never really understand until you're led by somebody who's not part of the dominant culture. In some ways you're going the other way, absolutely. You know the most well, one historic and certainly one that's got a name, to say the least, now into an environment led by andy stanley. Yeah, what was? 12:11 - Speaker 1 that, like man, man, it was, um, it was a cultural revolution in my mind, okay, and um, it definitely was the leading of the Holy Spirit that led me there and, to be honest, I ended up there and wanting to go there, not for cultural reasons, it was for innovation reasons, okay, which was interesting because at the time I had gone, you know, I told you New Birth had gone through some things. 12:41 - Speaker 2 Yes, you know the history of New Birth. 12:42 - Speaker 1 Now, obviously, pastor Jamal Dr Jamal Bryant is pastoring it and it's kind of it's flourishing again. But it went through a hard season and up until that point, having gone through so much and just kind of dealing with that, I wanted something different. I was just like I need something. I want to approach the gospel maybe in a different way. But I didn't really know how to answer that question. And it was actually Bishop Eddie Long's son who took me to North Point, which is Andy Stanley Street. He just called me one day and was like I'm trying to remember when this happened because I was like figuring this thing, different things out, and he said man, I'm going to a 6 pm service somewhere. I want you to go with me. So I go with him. 13:26 - Speaker 3 And it's the most white people I'd ever seen in my life, ever. 13:29 - Speaker 1 I was like right, it's like the Christian Gap store. 13:38 - Speaker 3 You said we were going to break the rule, we apologize for the beginning of this podcast. So if this has to be edited out in post-production, just edit me out, old Navy. 13:55 - Speaker 1 He said I went to the Old Navy tabernacle I was like where do all these white people come from? Because in Atlanta you can be black and never see a white person. Yeah, I get it Like you can be black and never see a white person. Yeah, I get it Like you can just live over here. And I didn't know Alpharetta existed until I got to North Point, and so I'm like this is like a whole new world. So I was fascinated at that. But then, once I got past that, I was seeing the lights and the camera and the— I actually think when I went, they opened with a Marvin Gaye song. What's going on? Okay, um, which is about, you know, kind of a cultural criticism. 14:31 Yeah, yeah, social justice all that and I'm it's positive so it makes sense, but it was very. I was like what is the right? And then he went through the service and I don't. I don't believe Andy was preaching in person, but the screen was like life-size and at one time they had a hologram of him at one time, yeah, and so I was just so blown away by the innovation. I said, man, whatever they're doing, I want to learn, and if it's a bunch of white people, yeah, that's fine, I'll figure that out. 14:58 - Speaker 3 Well, you know it says something about your character and aptitude for learning, because the bottom line is whether you agree with everything or don't agree with everything. I remember the old saying in the church used to be chew the meat and spit out the bones. Yes, I don't have to agree with everything to learn from something. Yes. And so you know you're in a completely different cultural environment and you're saying I can learn innovation in this space that I can apply in multiple spaces, and I don't have to replicate it, I just want to learn from it. And then you go through this you know season. Where then you're going to launch? 15:33 - Speaker 1 Yep. 15:35 - Speaker 3 And you're the very first ordained black global Hillsong pastor. Mm-hmm, wow, mm-hmm, I mean that seems like a lot of pressure, dude. What was that? 15:52 - Speaker 1 like it wasn't the goal. I think it's a great segue from North Point to Hillsong coming out of Ebenezer, because when you look at kind of the journey and where I ended up, it kind of has Dr King written all over it in terms of just what he stood for. Yes, I mean we're living in a multi-ethnic world today, or America when there's no, you know, slavery's not happening anymore. We still got a ways to go in terms of in our nation we're seeing that now. Sure, right, but civil rights, you know happen, we can ride the bus right. 16:30 Yeah yeah, me and you can sit in this room today because of what? 16:34 he believed in and it's hey, we're better together. 16:37 He called it the beloved community, and so for me, I want to. I, it seems as if you know, God introduced me to the King family, introduced me to the Kingian principles, which then coincided with the principles of the kingdom Um, and then took me on a beloved community journey in understanding, and I love this point that you made. In terms of man, it doesn't matter what's happening, I can learn from anybody, and that really speaks to this idea that we really are better together. And I think for me, obviously, when things like George Floyd happen and other things, you start to see how maybe apart you are, or how much you can learn from one another in terms of coming together, our gaps, so on and so forth. But there was so much that I learned at North Point from my white brothers and sisters that made me a better leader, that made me a better communicator. I tell you right today I wouldn't. I got my passion from Bishop Long, but sermon structure and the intention of theology and getting behind the text and context all came from Andy. 17:44 - Speaker 3 Stanley. 17:44 - Speaker 1 Storytelling. Yeah, it all came from Andy Stanley A hundred, and it was like and he was, I mean, he was a tough, he was a tough critic. Was I mean, he was a tough, he was a tough critic. But I had to submit myself through that process and on the other side it led me to to your point, to this first African-American pastor at, you know, at Hillsong, and it wasn't a goal I just for me. I just gotten to the end of the rope at North Point and I started asking the question is it possible to truly create an environment where all cultures can be seen and understood and the expression of ministry, whether it be a white context and a black context? Can we take the passion of the black church and mix it with the intention and the strategy of what some would consider the white church and the innovation, and then the prophetic side of the urban context, but then also the intention on theology? Can we put that together? 18:40 And so I started looking for a house to do that in, and Brad Lominick was my first, was my second call, because we, me and Andy, talked about it a lot and I mean we really wanted to do it but we just, you know, baptist Foundation, pentecostal, you know, so on and so forth, sure. And so he introduced me to Brian Houston, okay, and I flew in to meet with him, literally, and this is just literally the week of George Floyd in LA, and as I'm talking to him about this multi-ethnic idea, he's excited about it, but there are riots going on literally down the street, and so it was like a prophetic moment of God just going our nation needs this. Hillsong can be a part of this, and they were trying to figure out what they could do globally. Even they had just formed a global, was it multicultural board? Sure, well, they were trying to figure out, okay, what does it mean to do race relations here, but also in South Africa? 19:39 - Speaker 3 Yeah. 19:39 - Speaker 1 And then also in the UK and in other places, and so I'll stop. 19:45 - Speaker 3 No, I think you alluded to it earlier in the conversation when you said you know, we learn a lot more in the valley. We grow, we get stronger in the valley than we get from our blessings in the mountaintop. 20:01 And I know for me when I think about my favorite character in the Bible. It's Elijah. It's first Kings. I think there's a reason why in the new Testament, james says Elijah is a man just like he could have picked anybody. He says a lot and it's like well why? Well, elijah is the guy that can call down fire in one moment and wish it to be over in the next. You know he's sitting under a tree like you know done I'm burnt out ministry. You know, kill me now right like thank God. 20:37 Thank God, he don't answer every prayer like you're like we. Some of us have less kids. If God answered every prayer, you know less friends and relatives if God answered every but. 20:46 I mean, I mean, think about this like the, the grace of God, elijah takes a nap because that's what he really needed, and he takes a respite, and then there's warm bread baking over coals and cool water in a desert. God meets his need. And so for me, when I look at a character in the Bible that I feel like I most resemble Elijah's it, because I feel like I've had mountaintop moments where I felt like I called down fire and shut up the heavens and did some stuff that was real like oh my God. And then I also have had moments where I was like ready to quit and and God does something in those seasons. And it sounds like you've got these moments. That have been high, highs. But I know some of the next part of your story has felt like man, I had to go through the valley to get to where I am today. Mm-hmm. What does that rest of that story look like? 21:46 - Speaker 1 It's just a miracle that I'm at this table. Yeah, you know, at this table. Yeah, you know. And my let me use some black church terminology my testimony, yeah, say it, my testimony. 22:02 - Speaker 3 I mean, if there's a song that was, you know he's not done with you. Yet I look at you and I'm like yo, literally that's the soundtrack, you know. I mean, if I could actually sing, and I can't. 22:20 - Speaker 1 Right, but you would bust out. 22:21 - Speaker 3 I'm on pitch. I can't clap on beat. I have none of the talents you have. It's just like I hear it when I see you. I hear it like almost playing in my head. He's not done with you yet. Like when they thought it was over he's like no, I got a second chapter for Sam, I got a second, I got the next chapter, and the best is yet to come, man, I've seen it happen brother. Jesus. 22:42 - Speaker 1 Jesus, Jesus, don't do this to me at this table. 22:45 - Speaker 3 I'm sorry, man. I got to go there, you didn't be able for your neighbor in the hotel room. I thought she was going to go down too. 22:57 - Speaker 1 Man, yeah, my testimony has been I have been kicking and screaming. The Lord, literally, has just been dragging me. You're not going to give up, yeah, and I'm like please let me give up. But hey, I'm done with the ministry, thing'm done it's. It's been too much, it's been too hard, it's been. You know, and this is just I, I I really do think it's a, it's a great segue and I'm definitely gonna answer the question and you know, here's what's crazy, because you have options. 23:31 - Speaker 3 You know, there's the guy in ministry that's like I'm at the end of my rope, I'm done, but I got to go back next Sunday because I don't have a choice. You're so musically gifted and talented and your podcast is being spread. I mean, you're in rooms. It's not like you can't go secular tomorrow or get another job that was my plan. You're in it because God has said, uh-uh, you ain't going to give up, I'm going to keep you in this. It's not like, well, I just don't have another opportunity. 24:02 - Speaker 1 Yes. 24:03 - Speaker 3 I have to do this. 24:04 - Speaker 1 Well, and that's such a and I've never said this publicly, but since we're here, it seems like we're outside, we're inside, but we're outside, we're inside but we're outside. 24:17 - Speaker 3 You know when you go through and we're going to get into the Hillsong season, right. 24:19 - Speaker 1 And then I mean but if, if you're a ministry leader and you know they don't need a whole lot of context for it, you understand the barrage of media scrutiny and documentaries and all the things that we planted our church in and then navigate through it and again and I'll unpack it in a second but it's like when you go through stuff like that and then go through a divorce and some other things which we'll get to, you have people that are just like just hanging up Because, depending on what theological background you come from and how you view restoration, it's like you're disqualified. Just go sit down for the and nobody has a number. No, it's like it's 10 years enough. Yeah, it's two years enough. It's one year, it's six months. How do we know when somebody's really restored? There's no real number in the New Testament, right? 25:02 - Speaker 3 It's not like he gave us and I studied it a blueprint, yes, and was like, hey, you quietly bring him back along. No, I remember the time Jake said to me. He said Christians are the only people who shoot our wounded. Yeah, Now, I'm not saying that there's not a place of restoration, but what does that look like? Is it 18 months? Is it six years? Is it 10? Like, or do you just put the guy out there? And how do you know somebody's chain Right? 25:29 - Speaker 1 right. And so for me, it's like when you now again and I want to be, you know, honoring, because there were so many voices at that time behind the scenes, going this is not going to be your end, but there were, I probably would say maybe more voices, or it seemed like it was that are like just just hanging up. Why would you want to keep? And so you get to the point even you hear those voices. You hear these voices first time in my life ever, hearing these types of voices. Um, and then feeling the weight of the moment and the pressure of the moment, you just go, yeah, why do I want to? Like right? And and you start saying I started calling people and going yeah, no, I'm trying to get out too. I tried to give our church away five times. Truth just refused to take it. Love you man. The truth. I mean, I'm begging him please. He's like you're not, you're not stopping, and I'm like. And so I'm like guys, guys, it's not that I want to do this, right, I my therapist that actually and I'm skipping around, but my therapist had actually told me when I was on the verge of a nervous breakdown let's okay, let's pause, so we go through the hillsong season. 26:48 Um, we plant our church six months after carl lz has his situation in Hillsong, new York, when we get announced as first African-American pastors. Right, I was married at the time. People Magazine, new York Times, all these things in a week and I'm like this is it? This is like the crown of everything that this has been leading to. This is it. This is like the crown of everything that this has been leading to. 27:21 And then, literally seven days into the media cycle, the situation in New York happens with Pastor Carl Lentz. It usurps we're out of the media and it's him. And then it's Hillsong for the next year and a half. And I'm talking about I know the reporters' names because of how many articles were written. Sure, we were having meeting, global meetings about reporters. This is the individual. There was one individual who she just took it upon herself. She was like look, hillsong is my project. And I don't believe she was a believer. I think she's Jewish, actually, in terms of a Christian, she's like look, every day I'm going to write an article about Hillsong and I'm going to find something. 28:00 If somebody tripped over a Lunchable in the hall, she wrote about it. It's like they got Lunchables at Hillsong. I remember for three or four months it was an article from the New York Post. 28:13 - Speaker 3 The New York Post is a feeder, so when they post it, vanity Fair is picking it up, and then this person, associated Press, picks up on it, which, if it's positive, it's great. 28:22 - Speaker 1 Yes, but when? 28:23 - Speaker 3 you're in the middle of that kind of cycle and that whirlwind, I mean it's crazy. 28:27 - Speaker 1 Well, and she ends up getting to deal with Discovery Plus. Sure, that's when the documentary comes out. Yeah, we plant the church six months into that In the Bible Belt where Christian news is news. In the South it's Christianity. Everybody go to church, for the most part, or at least you've grown up in a church. In the North it might be a little different from what I have understood. That's why you have so many mega mega churches in the South. Sure, have understood. That's why you have so many mega mega churches in the South. Everybody just kind of goes to church. So if there's something in the Christian media, I mean it's kind of being spread and then it started tapping into you know, some mainstream media and so we want, when we plant our church, we, you know we've got 2000 people at opening, but most of the people came just to. You know what's what's going on here. 29:10 - Speaker 3 What's going on? 29:11 - Speaker 1 And so we think it, you know, and I'll say this to you it's like in our minds, it's like you know, hillsong has been number one for the last 40 years. 29:20 - Speaker 3 Shout to the Lord stuff. Darling Hosanna yeah Way back Mighty to save 1980 stuff yeah. 29:27 - Speaker 1 Yes, in our minds and I had mentors calling me behind the scenes going are you sure you want to continue with this? I'm like we haven't even played at the church. We have been announced, but I'm like they're like now are you sure? And I'm like it's Nike. It's Nike. You know how many? You know Nike goes through stuff all the time. You just don't hear about it. I'm like they're not going to go down, right, you know? And again, they're still existing. But in terms of the hit, yeah, and it just didn't stop. 29:58 - Speaker 3 Let's fast forward to your engagement with Christian Cultural Center. Yeah, pastor Bernard, pastor, jamal Bernard. 30:06 - Speaker 1 Yeah, how did that? 30:07 - Speaker 3 come about. 30:08 - Speaker 1 We go through the Hillsong season. We transitioned the church over to Story Church. Zach goes on for about a year and a half and then I go through a public divorce, which is very, it's very hard. You know, the intention at the time was that it would not be public, but it ended up being public and right when it kind of goes public and I talked to you about this privately we're in the middle of a building project and it was probably a $750,000 building project. We're $400,000 in and it goes public. 30:43 Our tithing goes down 80% and for me I'm like, man, it's over, it's we just need again. It's been this, it's been that we just need to hang it up. And um, I have a few friends of mine that you know, our lease, our lender and landlord, these are, you know, friends and they're like look, can you just try to do whatever you know? Can we finish the building? A finished building is better than you know any complete building. And um, and so when we just kind of we call it the Hail Mary, we threw a Hail Mary at Christmas Eve and you know the place was packed for the opening. We finished it, but then we continued to go through just what a church would go through in a divorce kind of spin, you know, and our tithing continues, it stabilizes, but it's not enough for us to pay a $30,000 a month mortgage, if you will, or lease man. 31:36 And so at the time I'm kind of navigating it and I fly up to New York to do my podcast deal with American River Radio Network, sure, and this is kind of the first sign of sun that I've had in like maybe two years, two or three years. So I'm just like, okay, you know, God is still here and I signed the deal. I'm excited. I go back to the hotel. My staff calls me. They're like it's an eviction notice on the door. Man calls me they're like it's an eviction notice on the door. And I just it was as if the last three years hit me all at once. I fall on the ground in the hotel. I'm just, you know, call my therapist and this is the point I was made. And he and he says to me you gotta, you gotta make a choice. I'm like, I'm like, hey, at this point it's about my health. I know I'm holding on to ministry and cause. I feel like this is the Lord has told me to do this. 32:30 - Speaker 3 But I don't want to die. 32:31 - Speaker 1 Right and I was pretty clear that if I continued along this, I was going to end up in the hospital. And he told me the same thing. He was like no, absolutely, you're like. You're. You're like moments away from having to be checked into like a mental institution. And he's like so the way you get out of this is you have to. You got to make a decision. 32:51 He described it like this it's as if you're in a dilapidated house and you're trying to refurbish it, and as soon as you fix one wall, you go in the next room and you realize there's mold on that wall as well. And you keep going from wall to wall inhaling more mold. And you realize there's mold on that wall as well. And you keep going from wall to wall inhaling more mold and you're getting worse over time. And I'm like well, is it worth saving the building? He's like only you know that, he said but you got to figure out what you're going to do now. You can't keep going from room to room and trying to juggle this. You're either going to do ministry, or you're going to do this, or you're going to do that, and there's no wrong answer. A couple of weeks go by and I tell him all right, I'm done with ministry. I just got my master's in ministerial leadership, theology and leadership and my plan was to go work for the UN and to do some other things. 33:41 And three days before I'm getting ready to announce to the church that we're closing, a friend of mine calls me and he's minor. Yeah. He says do you know Dr AR Bernard? And I'm like I know of him. I don't know these guys. You know Jamal. I think he had tried to connect me and Jamal maybe a year ago over text, but we had really never had a conversation. And he said well, would you be interested in doing something with them? They want to. You know Jamal wants to meet him. Two days later Jamal's in Florida, I mean in Atlanta. 34:16 - Speaker 3 Yeah. 34:16 - Speaker 1 And when Jamal walks in, we you know we have lunch. It's pretty dark for me at that time because I've released ministry. Things are heavy for me. I'm about to shut this church down. It's going to be another loss. And his first words to me are man, I'm sorry we didn't come sooner. 34:35 - Speaker 3 You know that sounds like him, and only because I'm his best friend and have known him for 20 years. And that friendship that sounds like the first words out of his mouth would be like man, I wish I was here sooner. That dude is a ride or die. Jump on top of a grenade for you kind of guy. 34:56 - Speaker 1 He's like me and my dad, we've just been watching you die for three years publicly. That's what he said, wow, and we meant to come sooner. But's like what are you? What are you doing? I'm like, well, I'm closing the church on sunday. And he's like, well, how much money do you need to keep it open? I'm like, well, I've kind of, I'm kind of done with ministry, right, right you know, and I got this bill. 35:23 He's like okay, but like if, how much money? And I tell him the amount and for me it's a big amount. Yeah, because this is $30,000. He gets up from the table. He says give me a second, Goes outside, calls his dad. He comes back, he says we're going to give you the money. Can you be in Brooklyn on Monday? 35:40 - Speaker 3 The, the relationship is how many minutes old? 30, 30 minutes old? That generosity I tell guys all the time the common denominator for my friends is not ethnicity, culture, geography. I've got friends, all it's generosity, and that man is one of the most generous people I know and his dad, who he learned it from. We're going to bail you out. 36:09 - Speaker 2 Basically we're going to bail you out. 36:12 - Speaker 3 God's been dragging you along this whole time. You ain't going to give up. You ain't going to throw in the white towel and we're going to help you. Right now. We're not going to just pray for you. That's great, thank you. I'm not going to give you a Bible verse, thank you. I'm going to write a check and we're going to figure this out, because you can't quit. 36:28 - Speaker 1 And the paradox I'm in AD at the time is like I don't even want to do this, right, but I'm seeing the hand of God, right, and so I can't ignore it. Right, and I'm hearing him go. This is what you're supposed to be doing, yeah, but I'm like God, but I already made the decisions, I got it, but we right, and I'm in Brooklyn on Monday. It is like just don't close the church down Sunday. So I have to walk it back emotionally in my head. I'm just go through with the motions on Sunday. 37:03 Monday I'm in Brooklyn meeting Dr Benar and Jamal. Pastor Truth goes with me and you know what's you know at at the time and you'll appreciate this at the time, the whole time I'm sitting there, I'm going okay, at some point they're gonna ask you about my marriage at some point. That's happening because this has been public it's and they don't. So we go through the whole meeting and then truth is like I gotta go because he has to catch an early flight. He had to go back and they're getting ready to leave. 37:25 I said, hey, guys, I think we should probably talk about my marriage. I bring it up and they're like we got five minutes, what's the deal? And I'm like I mean, at this point they decided we want to do Christian Culture Center Atlanta and all these things. And I'm like well, I feel like you need to know the details. And they're like oh, we got five minutes. And I'm like okay, so here's all. And I'm telling them the entire story. I'm like here's the park and the mire, here's what I did, here's what she did, like just all this stuff, like here's where I'm at and here's what I'm trying to. 37:59 - Speaker 3 And they're like okay, are Well, you know, this is right, because you wait, you don't have to be like all right man, this is great. Yes, we changed our minds. 38:09 - Speaker 1 And AR looks at me. He goes we already knew all that. Right, we wouldn't be sitting here. We just wanted to see if you were going to tell us the truth. 38:18 - Speaker 3 Mm. Mm, you got it out, I'm just like, and we leave, three months later we plant, you know, ccc atlanta and I've and I've been there and I've gotten to see the campus and I'm still waiting for my invitation to preach at ccc atlanta. 38:37 But whatever you know, it's okay, you let me know, I've been waiting but you said to me like yo, man, I'm growing this thing, what do we need to do? And I just simply said to you you just got to be more of who you are in God. Yes, because it's so clear that Pastor Bernard's covering is amazing, pastor Jamal's encouragement and leadership amazing. But God's got gifting and anointing so squarely on your life and all I just keep hearing in the back of my head is he's not done with you yet. The best is yet to come. And we're not sitting here, you know bringing up dirt. To be salacious, what we're simply saying is to every leader that's watching this right now your end. 39:24 If you're breathing today, there's purpose. If you're, if you got up this morning and you're right now, I don't care how dark it looks, there's purpose, there's future. Your best days are ahead. The best is yet to come in, and you are a living testimony of what that's like man. And I will tell you, bro, two o'clock in the morning or whatever it is man, I got your back and you are so worth every investment and anything that I could do to be a blessing to you. Man, I'm down to do it, man, because I've just seen the hand of God so clearly on your life. Can I ask you to do one thing? If there's a leader right now that's so struggling, they are in the valley right now. They don't know the other side. Yeah, the valley is between two mountains. Yeah, your next mountaintop is coming, but they're still in the valley. Would you give them a 60-second, just word of encouragement to that person that's watching right now. 40:31 - Speaker 1 I don't know how I made it through this interview with you. Yeah, I think you know what I would say is that one of the things that just keeps ringing in my spirit is you know, dr Bernard spoke to me and I asked the question why would you want to work with somebody like me that's gone through? And he said because you're humble, you take accountability. We want to see if you would tell us the truth. You did, you're not making excuses, you're willing to grow, you want to grow and I can work with that. 41:00 And I think that's just so important for people who have gone through some things, who have made some mistakes, which all of us have. Yes, we're all flawed. I think on the other side, this is what I've seen On the other side of accountability, humility, brotherhood, because our real first conversation was us riding around the city, me going all right. So here's my story and you're like okay, here's where I'll challenge you and here's where I'll hold you accountable and here's where I'm going to call you up. And I think that that's just so important because I think on the other side of that, humility is grace. Yes, and God can. Just what do you say? He opposes the proud. 41:42 - Speaker 3 Yeah. 41:47 - Speaker 1 And uplifts the humble. Yes, and so I just want to encourage somebody to be humble in your valley. Get all. John Maxwell said it this way when you're down, get all the lessons you can. When you're down, he said, because when you get up, those lessons are no longer there. And that's been my prayer in this season. And if you got to go kicking and screaming, go kick and scream, but be obedient to the Lord. That's the only reason I'm here, because the Spirit of the Lord said to me I don't care how you feel, this is what I've called you to. Are you going to be obedient or not? And it's been individuals like you who have said we got you. Okay, 30 for 30. 42:29 - Speaker 3 Y'all love you man, I love you man. I'm going to dap you up again because I don't think they're allowed to do that on podcast, but we're going to do it anyway. 42:36 I'm sitting here with Sam Collier, pastor of CCC, Christian Culture Center, atlanta, here in Long Beach, long Island, in New York City. Thank you for watching us on the Faithly Stories podcast. Continue to follow us on social media and all the platforms. Definitely follow this guy. Watch his journey, because the best is yet to come for him. The best is yet to come for you. God bless you. 42:57 - Speaker 2 Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. The Faithly digital platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection, foster collaboration and promote growth within the church and ministry space. Remember to subscribe, rate and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you. Stay tuned for more uplifting tales from the front lines of ministry on the Faithly Podcast. Stay bold, stay faithful and never underestimate the power of your own story.