Called to Be a True Servant - Amar Patel

00:01 - Speaker 1
AI was falling short. Every single day there's so many terminology, so much new terminology, so much new frameworks, so many new techniques. I had no idea what I was doing, and so I would go before I went home and slept at my brother's crib, like I would go to Barnes Noble, and I would sit there for two, three hours learning about the things that were brought up, and I would show up the next day, but my heart posture wouldn't be like oh, I know it all. I would tell people, hey, like I just learned this, is this the thing you're referencing? And I think what God called me to be, and who I am to seek to be today even, is a true servant, because that was what I had to become. I had to become that. Hey, my name is Amar and my little bit about me is that I love faith, books, people and community, and I actually didn't grow up as a believer, and the Lord has led my steps and surrounded me with people that have radically changed my life, and this is my Faithfully story.

00:55 - Speaker 2
Welcome to Faithfully Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life. Join us as we delve into their challenges, moments of encouragement and answered prayers. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. Learn more at faithlyco. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired as we unveil the heart of faith through stories from the front lines of ministry. On the Faithly Stories podcast.

01:37 - Speaker 3
First question I ask everybody is could you tell me how your faith journey started?

01:41 - Speaker 1
Yeah, I think so my faith journey, how it started. It's interesting because I grew up Hindu and so with my parents you know, coming to America typical immigrant story and my parents, they were really devout Hindus and so I grew up around that culture and that religion and, yeah, it was a really beautiful, beautiful upbringing, honestly. But one day my mom got in a car accident and so nothing like tragic happened, which is a miracle in of itself. But she ended up having the boldness and the Lord tendered her heart and she kind of was nudged by some friends to go start going to church and that created a lot of division in our family actually. And you know, here's my mom who raised this Hindu but is now having the courage to like go, step out, go into church. And yeah, I just observed her, you know, I was only 10, 12 years old at this point and watching my mom like step out and she would come home more at peace than when she was, you know, going to the temple as a Hindu, and I think that really resonated with me and so that was like the first stream that kind of led to me exploring my faith and so, yeah, it was. It's interesting because we, as I started going to church. Like the only reason I started going to church was, yeah, we weren't like super rich when we were younger or anything by any means, and I used to go to church just because they had amazing snacks, like, and I used to stuff my pockets with, like Swedish fish and all the things. Like I didn't, I didn't really care about the whole Jesus thing, I just was like, oh my God, like this is amazing. I didn't really care about the whole Jesus thing, I just was like this is amazing, great snacks, great things. And that was the reason I went.

03:30
But things really radically changed for my faith. Like in high school I was actually struggling your typical adolescent, trying to figure out their identity and trying to navigate all the ups, highs and lows, and I ended up just drinking a lot and partying and doing that phase. And I got invited to an athletic or athlete small group I think it was like FCA Fellowship of Christian Athletes and there was a couple students in there that told me, hey, like let's go to church for like the first time, and so with them. And so I went and again, like I don't haven't really internalized my faith at this age, you know, like for the most part I just kind of went with my mom because of the free snacks and just the being there to support my mom, but I really didn't have a relationship with god.

04:20
And so, going to this um church at an amusement park shout out red rocks church before you guys. Or had the big buildings. You were at an amusement park, shout out Red Rocks Church Before you guys had the big buildings. You were at an amusement park at Heritage Square and I went there and there was a gentleman preaching on stage and he started hitting on a bunch of notes of just all the struggles I had as a young man and something shifted in my heart at that moment and I actually I was dead set on trying to be a pediatrician, but in that, in that moment, my heart shifted and said like, hey, maybe you should like consider public speaking or pouring into others or being a pastor. I was like all right, I don't really know what that means, but hey, let's, let's go figure that out. And so, yeah, I kind of just one thing led to another and that I didn't end up becoming a pastor Spoiler for everyone listening to the story.

05:11
But you know, I ended up actually accidentally getting into technology. And so this is college now, and I ended up two years into college I thought the Lord just saying go be a light in the engineering program on your campus. And so I switched my major, which is, in hindsight, from an economic perspective, probably not the wisest thing to do because my credits didn't transfer over. But here I was. I shifted into computer science and I just learned to like pray for people, you know, that were like super stressed, super depressed. I joined a Christian fraternity, did a ton of ministry and just slowly started to see like how God can like use me. And that's kind of the story. There's so much there, but I'll stop for now.

06:02 - Speaker 3
Yeah, so for your mom, did she ever explain what compelled her to even start going to church, and then, what was the peace that she was feeling? Did you ever get to talk to her?

06:10 - Speaker 1
Yeah, that's good. You know, I think for my mom she really experienced like a deep amount of peace, because you didn't have to pretend to be someone else in the church that she was going to. And I think that the you know, each of the different institutions have their own subcultures and whatnot, but she, for the first time in her life, really didn't have to pretend to be someone. She wasn't, and I think that's what really drew her to it.

06:40 - Speaker 3
Do you have faith? Conversations with your mom.

06:42 - Speaker 1
Yeah, sometimes I think now, so my mom, she is like you know, I think every son says this about their mom but she's super strong, like in so many ways. She's so resilient and I think my faith conversations have really evolved, because I think when I was younger it was all about her trying to teach me about God, and now I think I'm in a spot or position, with deep humility, to be able to be like a teacher to her and to, you know, father, her in her faith journey, which has been really beautiful. And so, yeah, just this, like trying to be this individual of encouragement, because it's hard to stay faithful despite all the struggles people go through, you know.

07:28 - Speaker 3
How did her like new faith affect, like her relationship with you?

07:33 - Speaker 1
Yeah, I think it just caused a lot of marital strife and for me that really affected how I perceive my parents and marriage in general, and you know, I don't think I ever got to see them really come together unified on something. Because of that.

07:52 - Speaker 3
Did you ever feel any misunderstandings with the Lord of like, hey, you believe my mom faith, but now the family dynamics all weird.

08:04 - Speaker 1
That's a great question, you know. I think at that age, you know, if I were to really think about that at that age, I don't think I had those types of doubts. The questions I was having was so I was English as a second language student, so I was English as a second language student, and so then in my reality I also got to go to like I was surrounded by, like you know, more at-risk youth and socioeconomic, like immigrants, you know, as students. And I think my mind just fixated on like oh well, everyone else has these really cool cars and houses and we live in this apartment, and I felt more shame so it wasn't actually misunderstanding with the lord around, like why aren't my parents? Like, why does one have faith in the other? I was actually fixated on just my survival situation. I was just I. That's where my frustration or my concern really came from was that.

09:02 - Speaker 3
So then, what was the thing that was resonating with you with that sermon? The pastor at Red Rock.

09:06 - Speaker 1
Yeah, I think there's a couple notes that resonated with me was really just around how he brought up. He was raised in a broken household. He also struggled with alcohol. He also was wearing a mask and seeking acceptance in many different situations throughout his life. He never had assurance of safety, just given his neighborhood and his own perception of the world, and then he was just like a hustler. He had this energy to him around, being dynamic and being an entrepreneur or a founder and I think all of that that culmination of that I got to see, for like the first time in my life, pieces of what I struggle with, but then someone who's overcome them, you know, and I got to get exposed to what I could become.

09:55 - Speaker 3
So have you had other mentors in your life throughout like your college years that like you can look up to and talk to, like who helped you on the space journey?

10:03 - Speaker 1
Yeah, that, like you, can look up to and talk to.

10:03
Like who helped you on the space journey. Yeah, you know, I have a few mentors and I actually didn't really have mentors in college. I think that's probably one thing I would do differently is like actually get mentorship in a good college. However, post-college, you know, I was really blessed just with the workplaces I got to work in and coworkers just radically stepped up and poured into my life and they modeled to me how they live their lives and they modeled to me how they raise their kids. They modeled to me how to actually pray and that completely changed the trajectory of my life.

10:45
I, you know one guy I will shout out right now is Pablo Cerrone. We used to work together at Glue. He's a product, he was a product leader there and he has this nonprofit for men called Wild Sons and I went to a retreat there and it was in the mountains, at this ranch, and you know I'd never really gone on an intentional men's retreat. I'd been on like fun college retreats that were just like. They definitely encouraged me in the spirit, but it was nothing like this, because I've never been surrounded by role models, as you said, like I was role models, all men fighting for me, and it completely shattered the orphan spirit that I had, and so that, yeah, that was, that was one mentor I would just like shout out right now there's, there's many. I'm sure we'll get to all of them, but yeah.

11:38 - Speaker 3
No, that's awesome. Um, so what made you want to be a pediatrician?

11:42 - Speaker 1
I had a bunch of like health problems when I was younger, and so I was just like man. This is so boring, like why are the doctors so boring? And they're not making the doctors are incredible, but the ones I was going to just it felt like the life was there was no charisma, there was no energy and I had enough suffering going on around me that I actually looked forward to going to like the doctor and getting some kind of interaction. But yeah, just never. I never experienced that, and so part of me wanted to redeem those like experiences I had as a kid, but then also, you know, do something differently, and it wasn't because of my parents and being Indian or anything like that.

12:22 - Speaker 3
So yeah, it feels like like you love people, right, and you want to see people flourish, and so I kind of see that heart and maybe that's what God was shaping into you. And now you've become this person, which brings me to my next question of like okay then, did you feel like you wanted to be a pastor because you got this amazing experience, because you were receiving the word, and so now you just want to share it? And what made you not go into that path?

12:49 - Speaker 1
yeah, you know, I think that two things with that yeah, it definitely resonated with me and sparked something. And I think, at the end of the day, what it sparked for me was around, go, love people well. And then I had to do a lot of reflection and discernment around well, to love people well is the only way pastoring, or can you do it through different mediums? And you can't. And I think that if I would have had a spiritual mentor at that time, maybe I would have been nudged a certain direction and I would have had a better framework for how to get into that. But you know, I applied to CU Boulder and that's where I went to school. It's like there's not seminary, you know what I mean. So I think that that was the. I was dealing with those different ideas and trying to navigate the intersectionality of it all.

13:47 - Speaker 3
Do you know the idea of a third place? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right, being aligned in those third places where you are surrounded by people of all different ideas and religions and beliefs, but yet you are still consistent in who you are, modeling Christ. And then people come asking you like why are you so different? Or like what's going on with you? I think it's such a more impactful thing that people need to start sharing more about and like believing in that, like God doesn't have this one path. It's more of like hey, he loves you and just be like Christ wherever you are.

14:22 - Speaker 1
Yeah, that's amazing, you know, I there's a quote that really resonated with me that a good friend of mine shared, and the quote goes you have more power, or God has more power to do good than you do bad.

14:39
And I think that my life story I've made so many mistakes I haven't done. I would argue 98% of the things I've done is either been on accident and like even a failure in some cases, but the Lord has just redeemed every single one of them, you know, and I would just say, like, for anyone that's kind of listening to this, trying to think through failure and trying to figure out their next steps, think through failure and trying to figure out their next steps, it's just to realize, like, take the first step, like what is that first step? And even if you're not confident in that first step, just try and see where it leads, you know, because it's better than doing nothing, because if you stay in that space of just not risk taking and stagnation, that's where you can start to whisper self-doubt to yourself, you know, and that can lead to a really downward spiral, and I've been down that path too. So, yeah, I just felt like prompted to bring that up.

15:35 - Speaker 3
No, that was really good. Yeah, I think. Well, one of my favorite songs is Nothing's Wasted. Like God uses everything right. And so, once you realize that, like there's no fear and failure, because nothing's really a failure, it's just more of a learning curve. So what happened after college? You went into tech and engineering. Do you code?

15:55 - Speaker 1
uh, I used to a little bit, but I was never really good at coding. I think I'm just good. I was better with, uh, with people, yeah, I. I think that. So, sitting in, sitting in a not that engineers are typically like this, but for me, the imagery of just like coding alone just didn't make me come alive. So I didn't end up going down that path. I actually accidentally got into product, product thinking, product management, project management. I didn't even know that was a career because in college I was like, guess, it's just software engineering, right, and I was fixated on that. But I got really lucky and I got to work, um, on a few different apps coming out of college. Uh, the first was an app called sober grid, um, and it's an app that helps people stay sober. It was such a beautiful experience. I got to do that as an intern for, like you know know, three, three, three to four months, I believe. I learned so much. It was like such a bootcamp. And then shortly after, I was in a really unique spot because that company ended up having a bunch of organizational change and so I ended up leaving.

16:59
But then I'm down to like my last like 300 bucks in college and trying to figure out my life. And I was just wandering down the street and I looked across the street and there was a building and it was called Tech Stars. I didn't really know what Tech Stars was or who they were. I looked them up. I saw another internship role applied, got into that, learned so much about, like how to build relationships with other founders, entrepreneurship. I was super powerful, but I got into it completely on accident, like it was not, I didn't have a plan, and I got in there and I got exposed to a lot of things and you know I was doing these pitch nights and and doing these um, traveling a little bit with them.

17:40
But I think what I felt conviction from the Lord of just this isn't the like. I'm not proud of who you're becoming here, and so I really wrestled with that for a little while. But I started to understand, because here I am giving advice on how to pitch a company or how to build rapport and apply to a program at Techstars, Cause you know part of my job description. But I felt conviction was just like the. I felt very idolized because I was like you know, I'd have these young founders come talk to me because I had the brand of tech stars, but I truly myself never built anything. You know, hustling as a kid selling ice cream or whatever, like that's not, that's not a business, and risking at risking a lot, you know, and here I was like saying things to you know, these founders who are risking it all and saying like, oh, you can make your pitch better this way. And who am I, who am I to say that? You know?

18:35
So I ended up resigning and that was a testimony because, again, still economically like, my bank account was not where it needed to be as a person trying to figure out their life after college. Yeah, I, um, I got, got introduced to glue and got to work there. Um, and that was such a powerful experience, profound. Um learned so much. I'm an amazing team. We built a small groups app called spaces. Um, learned a ton doing it. And then, shortly after, um, you know my experience there in in, in that, like three months into it, I had so much imposter syndrome because I was just sitting there going like, well, I don't think I'm qualified to do any of this, but they gave me a chance and I'm forever, forever, um, you know, I'm grateful that they did.

19:25 - Speaker 3
Could you just share, like what is Glue yeah?

19:28 - Speaker 1
I think it's a great question. Glue really seeks to exist to empower, like the champions, and they view champions as like missionaries, nonprofits, church organizations, organizations that are focused on redemptive aspects of society and Glue it has many different software initiatives that empower different aspects. So, whether that's a small groups app or whether that's like a text-based service at your local church to like send out broadcast text messages like they have, Thrive is the big thing there. There's so many different things and they're really just a thought leader in the spiritual faith tech ecosystem.

20:08 - Speaker 3
Yeah, so what did you do at Glue?

20:10 - Speaker 1
Specifically the mobile app spaces, and it was a small group app and so I got to just like lead the mobile team a little bit, you know, and do like a little bit of product management, a little bit of scrum master stuff, qa, just kind of being this generalist, it really truly a little bit of scrum master stuff, qa, just kind of being this generalist. It really truly again forged me to be like a true startup generalist, because there was just so much stuff going on all the time that you had to wear multiple hats. That's what I did.

20:36 - Speaker 3
I'm glad you said that, because in our world there's just this thing where there's an overinflated value on specialty, right. But being a generalist is actually like really, really helpful, especially in the beginning stages of stuff. And you know that saying like a jack of all trades a master of none, people don't realize that's like only half of the quote, because the rest of the quote is it's still better than a master of one and I was like blown away, yeah.

21:03 - Speaker 1
Yeah, because I've actually never heard the whole quote.

21:06 - Speaker 3
so really, yeah, yeah, because, yeah, you might be great at this one thing, but unless this one person needs that one thing, you're kind of useless, right. But if you have the ability to just like have a broad knowledge base and help people, you just have a bigger scope of like helping people. Which brings me to like the dirty little secret in tech, everyone's an imposter. You know, like no one really knows exactly what they're doing, because they're learning on the job, because we live in a world where it's results. They never ask you like how did you do this? Unless they want to like know from themselves. It's just more like did you produce it, did you get it done?

21:47
But that also says I think, as Christians, we need to operate differently, even though we want to produce results. Like you said, the people producing it's people, right, and when you take care of people, then you kind of cover your bases of the results. So you're explaining, you're learning so much in this tech space, but also like internally learning, like who God wants you to be. Again, looking back up to that glue part, like, yeah, like you're learning a lot of stuff in this industry, but like, how is it shaping you and you leaving? Did you like what did you do to become the person you felt like God was calling you to?

22:28 - Speaker 1
be? Yeah, that's a that's an amazing question. So more context to the story is while I was working at Glue, I couldn't afford to live in Boulder anymore. Um, cause I was just starting off in the first like six months it's actually like lived on my an air mattress at my younger brother's like um college apartment. I felt embarrassed because here I am, like this guy who graduated, all his friends are like living there too and you know they look up to me in some capacity. But here I was, like I have to exit, like lose my ego and have to swallow the pill because it was just too far to commute every morning, like from where I like had a place to live, versus like there and very first world problem. But here I am, you know, I was really thinking it's not like I was like on the streets or anything, but there was a part of me having to swallow my pride in doing that, like to depend on my younger brother. And that was a really beautiful thing because I think for a large, large, large part of my life I was it was the other way around like I was looking over my brother, but it was cool. It was like such a cool moment I was while working at glue.

23:32
I've never experienced the it's. It wasn't glue, it was my, my approach to how I worked at glue. I was falling short every single day. There's so many terminology, so much new terminology, so much new frameworks and techniques. I had no idea what I was doing and so I would go before I went home and slept at my brother's crib, like I would go to Barnes and Noble and I would sit there for two, three hours learning about the things that were brought up. I did that for six months straight and like, just like, learning anything I could, and I would show up the next day, but my heart posture wouldn't be like, oh, I know it all. I would tell people, hey, like I just learned this, is this the thing you're referencing? And I think what God called me to be, and who I am, as I seek to be today even, is a true servant, because that was what I had to become. I had to become that and I'll share one quick thing.

24:31
You know I had a few speaking gigs lined up in different countries as well, like after Techstars, because I met so many friends from all around the world while working there and they're like hey, you should come speak at my university or my school. I was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing, of course. And speak at, like my, uh, my university or my school. I was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing, of course. And like it goes back to the high school dream of like seeing the pastor. I was like, oh, this is such a dream. But covet happened the world shuts down.

24:51
I'll never forget this line that I got told right when this happened and I found out all I got one email each airline united airlines canceled, australia this is canceled, uh, kenya canceled, like all these different things canceled. And I got told this line and it said a pastor was saying to me. He said God will take away opportunities. He knows you don't have the character to sustain. But here I am right, as a man like I'm sleeping, sleeping on my brother's floor, working at glue, being a servant, reading scripture, doing prayer, doing all the things. I'm like man, I'm doing, I'm crushing, I'm crushing life, you know, but that hit me. And so I was in that space of like, okay, doing all the things to be a servant, but I'm not getting blessed with this opportunity that you I thought was part of my, my story.

25:37 - Speaker 3
So, yeah, I don't know what do you think, danny, like as I share that, like what comes to your mind I think there's some truth to that, um, that, like god will never lead you to a path where you're just going to destroy yourself. Right, I think opportunities that we are in, especially when it's led through our need, like you said, like I couldn't afford to do this. So, like God shapes our lives in a way where we need to depend on other people and to humble us in a way where we need to depend on other people and to humble us. I think it's, yeah, to shape us, and he's never going to give you something, especially if it's in the back of your mind. You expect it.

26:14
It's this weird thing of like there's a difference between expecting and anticipating right, and the best illustration I use is a football player. Like you're a cornerback and you know this wide receiver and you know all those moves, but you don't know what he's going to do Right, so you can't expect one thing Because, like, some athletes cheat Right, and then they get burned. But when you're constantly anticipating, then you're like focused and you're like, ok, when this happens. I got to do this, this happened. So I think it's more like that of like every opportunity is for you to gauge are you aware of yourself and how you should be, like you mentioned before, like modeling christ, because at the end of the day, I realized that, like, the most important thing is people believing right, like what are you believing about yourself, what are you believing about your reality and how does that play into the belief of?

27:02 - Speaker 1
god. You know, I think what you said, there's gold in what you said, because I think often we don't realize that I think often we don't realize is that those lies, that messaging that we carry, that it's residue and that residue that carries into everything you do, it carries into your work, carries into your worship, it carries into your marriage, it carries into the bedroom, it carries into wherever you may be. Like, if you don't go and sit and be tender to your seven-year-old self and like, actually like, excavate and heal those things with the help of, like friends or mentors or pastoral leaders, you're truly not going to show up well. Well, and I think, going back to, like, the tech side of things, you know, I think about all the people that work in tech, that don't get to work in places that are that don't necessarily encourage like faith conversation, how their days are. You know, because what's their attitude towards their work? I was what's their posture towards their work?

28:07
And it leads I mean, you know I'm not saying just cause you're a believer, you won't be burnt out, I've burned out but I think I think about, like some of my friends who are non-believers, the struggles they go through and them not being in community what it does, and so, yeah, it's a, it's a really fascinating thing. And then one other thing I want to just say is you said a line which is around the self-image Like. That is so critical. Like I think when I make friends with people or try to mentor others, it really comes from a place of I want to understand how do they view themselves, like they could be, you know, the president of the United States or like, you know, like a big like? Do they have that confidence about themselves or do they? Is there truly a suppression and minimization of their potential? And I think that's what makes me cry actually is when I see the people closest to me not living up their potential. It's heartbreaking.

29:04 - Speaker 3
I totally agree. I would just nuance the words differently, because someone said, like I never use the word potential anymore because potential is about, like, what you think I should be rather than who. I am right, and that broke me.

29:21 - Speaker 1
I was like I'm convicted right now.

29:25 - Speaker 3
But where I resonate with you is this people think too much less of themselves, right? You know that Tim Keller quote humility is not about thinking less of yourself. Is thinking less about yourself, yes, right, meaning like even when I and I don't even know if it was a struggle I just never thought I was special, right, and it was only until, like, I realized Jesus is special and Jesus is never going to let me fail in what he has for me. That's where my confidence comes from. I think we need to help people resonate Like you're not special because you think you're special. You're special because you're made in the image of God, right, and everyone has value. And so, yeah, I think it just comes down to love more and more. I'm realizing I am learning how to love myself, right, but I'm learning to love myself in the version that I believe God made me to be, in my strengths and weaknesses.

30:23 - Speaker 1
Yes, and to lead and to step into those weaknesses and embrace them.

30:26 - Speaker 3
Yes, right, like because my weaknesses kind of show me like where I'm prone to like get distracted and like follow the world Right and I got to say no to those things. So my weaknesses are actually teaching me how to say no, to become more of the strengths that God has placed me in.

30:44 - Speaker 1
No, that's beautiful, dan, that was beautiful. No, I appreciate that. You know, I feel that in this podcast, you've actually, you know, you've ministered to me by sharing, like, some of the stuff that is resonating with you and how you're like riffing with me back and forth, I'm thankful, thank you so much. 're like riffing with me back and forth, I'm thankful.

31:05 - Speaker 3
Thank you so much I think the lord is so good and gracious. So what happened after? Glue you? How did you get into salt and light? Well, is it salt and light? No light, yeah salt and light.

31:17 - Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, I could share that story. Well, basically, um after glue, I um, you know I really wanted to take my shot at entrepreneurship and so actually, I ended up starting a software agency for mission-driven companies and got to work on a whole slew of different problems, really exercising the generalist in me. It was a software agency. The highs were really high and the lows were really low, but I learned so, so much and had a really epic team and we got to just I think it was our first real shot at doing a business together and I learned so much. Year and a half in I ended up realizing okay, I don't think this is good for me spiritually, not that the projects were incredible, it was just that I was pushing myself to the bone and I didn't know how to set boundaries. I was pushing myself to the bone and I didn't know how to set boundaries. I was young, and so I ended up stepping away from the software agency and I moved to Argentina, and I moved to Argentina for six months.

32:14 - Speaker 3
So I'll pause there. Yeah, what?

32:17 - Speaker 1
made you burn out.

32:19 - Speaker 3
Like what was the driving force for you to burn out?

32:22 - Speaker 1
I think I had a lot going on. While I was building the agency. I took on a second job to try to float the salaries of the employees outside of the agency, which is really fun and rewarding, but it was just really hard. And then, at the same time, my dad ended up having a stroke and then getting in a car accident while I was just getting the agency started, and so I just had a lot of pressures like both, like taking care of the team, my family, and then, at the same time, clients is another pressure, because you have to deliver on what your clients want. And so, yeah, I think just all three of those different things all kind of happening at the same time, that was unpredictable. It was really hard and I think, yeah, I um I didn't delegate. Well, I'll also admit that from from my own um fault, and so, yeah, that's what kind of led me to spiral into that direction. I had my first like anxiety, panic attack. Also I was like, oh, that's, that's not real. And then, boom, I got it so.

33:22 - Speaker 3
So the reason why I asked is because you know, I burnt out at my last previous church.

33:28
I was there like five years and I was just like literally doing a lot, like I was working like seven days, but when I look back on it I really felt the pressure that I had to do it. So the driving force was like I'm upholding this thing and if I let go, like it's gonna crumble. So I'm just curious as to you, because for me it was like really fear driven right. It wasn't really like joy driven right of like. So like I'm just curious to you like was that a thing like could you say you felt the pressure to uphold everything and now, looking back, like, did you learn from that? Um, are you operating differently now?

34:06 - Speaker 1
yeah, I mean totally. I think what you said like feeling like you're carrying the weight of it for sure, I mean, and I think it's as a as an early leader, um, or founder in something you care so much about, like it's like a baby, a company's like a baby, and so you care so much about it, you obsess over it, but but you also you know each hour that I'm putting in or whatever it was, that I had to step up and do it's to get revenue for the business so that we can pay the salaries, because there's people's families Like I'm. I'm, you know the responsibility of mine and I think that posture is a great posture to have. But you have to also recognize the benevolent detachment aspect of this and this is how I'm operating. Differently is legalizing with Salt and Light so, for example and I can share more about how Salt and Light and how that started. But with Salt and Light it's a startup and we're trying to figure out all the things.

35:05
But I think this time is like win or lose. It's not because of my shortcoming or like another team member shortcoming. It is truly like the lord's favors on our team and I say that with a deep amount of humility. But if it will, if this company doesn't work out, it's because, like the lord had plans for this, to not actually like work this way and it's not why. Well, and that's how I'm operating differently. It's so easy to articulate that now, but the amount of pain that I went through to be able to even articulate that now to you and to say that with confidence, that's how I'm trying to operate, yeah, I can't even sum it up into words like that pain and those hours and the struggle and that feeling of burnout, I can't truly articulate that.

35:47 - Speaker 3
No, I mean, I completely resonates with me. I think everyone should do a startup, because you learn so much about yourself.

35:53 - Speaker 1
Yes.

35:55 - Speaker 3
But, like I've gotten to a point where I realize, like, if God doesn't bless it, it's not going to happen. So, every day, like, yeah, I do what I need to do, I have obligation, responsibilities, and I don't want to fall short of those. But outside of that, like I need to operate in faith of like, oh, like you've taught, like I believe god led me all through these opportunities to teach me not just about me, but just skill sets, right, um, and because I I trust in those skill sets, right, I just know how to do it. So, as long as I'm doing it, then I leave the results of him and it's such a more freeing way to live. Like it works, um, and that's been the biggest shift for me uh, that's, uh, that that's, that's amazing, amazing.

36:44 - Speaker 1
Yeah, I thought in light like I'll answer your question around that too, because I think you'd ask like salt and light has easily it's easily the hardest thing I've done, like in my career Um, so it's a game, right, and so let me, let me, let me introduce that real quick. So basically, um, you know, the problem we're solving is that there's a loneliness epidemic in the world and people aren't. The church does many, many things really well, and one of those things is small groups, and so our team wants to bring small groups to the masses and we're not just building another group management tool. No, we really want to come in with like imagine a Venn diagram right now group management games and a third space, want people to really dwell in this space, not keep you there for countless hours, but a space where, rather than just a whatsapp group or a slack, which most small groups or community groups use, um, there's shallow interactions in those. So if there's like someone literally like saying I need prayer for the something, or I I'm struggling with this thing, or I need help with the thing, well we heart it or we get the prayer emoji, and it's a shallow interaction. Our app is really doing a play on audio. We have, like audio based games and we have other intentional games baked into the experience, and so that's what we're building over at Salt and Light, and it's like bring the people that are experiencing loneliness, self-doubt, whatever it is, get them plugged into a small group that are experiencing loneliness, self-doubt, whatever it is. Get them plugged into a small group. And what we want to do is empower group leaders that are in the existing church to use this as a way to start having intentional conversations with your neighbors or with people at work or with people just in life that aren't churchgoers, and say like hey, I know you're about to be like a first-time dad. Come join the small group that I run with other first-time dads. And now this person that isn't plugged into that community is sitting there in this space going with all their self-doubt, with all their things, realizing wait, these other people also struggle with the exact same insecurities that I do, and so that's what we're building.

38:40
I'm super excited that we as a team are doing that, and every single day there is so much hope. Every single day that I've been able to work on this with this amazing team, I get injected with hope. That hope comes always at the right time of the day. There are mornings I wake up out of bed. I would be a complete lie to you right now if I was like I wake up and I'm like, yeah, this is the best thing ever. There's a moment I wake up and I'm like I gotta go to stand up. Oh, we just paid that lawyer bill.

39:16
Oh, we had an investor say no, but for some reason, with this team, all that trying to carry it on my shoulders and all that stuff, we just have a unique dynamic and each team members ministered to me, despite this being the hardest thing I've ever done, you know.

39:35
So, yeah, I share that, just because, as a, as a person, that's like founding something like if you're listening to this and you're like thinking about starting something like, the team is a really important thing and our team does like weekly prayer and that has ministered. I thought you know, like a weekly prayer, like whatever, no, that time consecrating that time for the week, our discussions, our conflict, it's been a game changer and so, yeah, I'll pause there, but I wanted to just like lead us into that space to talk about that, cause I think, with faithly. You guys are doing really something really powerful with the LinkedIn for, like you know, faith communities and ministry leaders. That's epic. And we're over here on the other side of the problem trying to like connect people to people like you, like all these ministry leaders. And how do we, how do we do that?

40:24 - Speaker 3
You know so yeah, yeah, the prayer thing is actually really real, like when we first started. Like Alicia, my co-founder, she would like say, oh, let's pray, let's pray. And so I just got into the habit of doing it. But, like in the beginning, I'm not going to be. It was just like not normal for me, it wasn't normalized where I prayed in every meeting and stuff.

40:47
But after around the year Amar I found value in it that we're actually posturing our hearts in our meeting before we go through all of our agendas and stuff. We're like Lord, we really wanted to be you and it set the seed of reminder like why am I doing this? Now? It's like weird not to pray because I feel like, no, god, I want you to bless it. So I'm gonna like pray, you know, like make sure my heart's right, my mind's right and hearts are pure in what we do. So, yeah, yeah, I completely agree with you and I love the word you use, consecrate, because I think we're so detached from the idea of consecration and what holiness is. We think holiness is this pure, untouched thing, but it just means it's just set apart for a God's purpose. So, yeah, you want to go more deep into that. What do you want to?

41:43 - Speaker 1
share. Yeah, wow, yeah, for sure it's fun, guys. That is, I've had two important people shout out right now like mentors, wise, and I'm going to tie it into what you just called out around people. The first is Jim McCoy. So after I had my crazy panic anxiety attack, he does like men's life coaching and spiritual direction and so I got to work with him. I was so, so formative because we got to go into those those woundings and traumas that I experienced. It was great. And the second is a man named Herman Kim. Herman Kim runs a nonprofit called Anazal Ministries out in California, orange County, and so I'm doing spiritual work with him and I bring this up because those two men have really helped me step into the identity of my name. So my name real quick Amar.

42:42
In Arabic umar is like to build, and in Spanish it literally means to love and in Hindi it means forever, and so I always tell people like my identity and what I'm trying to step into is I want to build things that love people well, forever.

42:58
That's truly what I want to do and I think I was always insecure about that. But those two men that I call Jim and Herman, they've really helped me learn how to pray, like I really had a shallow prayer life, like beforehand, like I'd say tell people oh yeah, I'm praying for you. Or like I'll lead prayer. But I didn't speak with conviction and now I can confidently say that I'm still not perfect, but I'm a lot better than what I was, you know, and it is so beautiful and being able to do pray, like with our team, and to pray for the members of the team, but also to pray for our small groups that are already on this app, to pray for the stories that will come of it. It helps me just re-ground myself. I'm not in control. Every single time I say a prayer I realize I'm not in control Because I'm. My posture is again looking up to the heavens and saying like I give everyone and everything to you. I don't truly know so yeah.

43:57
Yeah, that's it.

43:58 - Speaker 3
I have a hot take.

43:59 - Speaker 1
Give me your hot, take man, I realized free will is such a lie.

44:08 - Speaker 3
Right, because every decision we make, it comes from a source within us and a desire. So we're actually enslaved to our desires, which is why, like, god gives us a new desire. But what god gives us is not free will, it's self-control. Right, and that's why the fruit of the spirit, the last thing, is self-control, is that, like, are you able to say no to the things you're supposed to say no to and yes to the things you're supposed to say yes to?

44:29
Rather than like just be drawn, because there's something inside you that feels this is right and I was like man and so, yeah, like I think prayer helps with that too, like it aligns. I see prayer as an alignment right Of like you being with his thoughts and his feelings, and so you know the path you go to. Did you read Tim Keller's book on prayer?

44:53 - Speaker 1
I don't think I have. Which one should I read?

44:56 - Speaker 3
It's literally just Tim Keller and the title is prayer. It's actually an amazing book because he goes through the background of what people think prayer is. It's just communications, but it's so much more than that. There are things we can learn about contemplating and introspecting Tim Ross. Do you know who Tim Ross is?

45:19 - Speaker 1
I feel like I do. Is that the guy who says upset the gram?

45:22 - Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the basement right.

45:26
The basement. Yeah, there's just so much there about the reason, but I'm not gonna do it. Um, yeah, he said something like he. He referenced like you know, don't pray like the, like the pagans or the religious people that just say a lot of words, right, and I used to think like, oh, just pouring out your heart and saying things and just being loud and like quantity was the most important thing. But it's, it's quality of quantity. Do you know what I mean? Yes, of course. Yeah, connection and just getting your heart right is the prayer. Or just pouring out like, like a distress, or grieving. And that changed my mind of like okay, he already knows my heart. Like what, what is the honest words I need to say right to him for myself? And so I see prayer like that more now. It's just because prayer can easily get into this routine of like oh, we're just going to close our eyes and say these things, or like sometimes I felt like I had to say the right words.

46:27
That like spoke to people's hearts but it's no, like if I ever pray out loud, it's just me talking to God one-on-one, and people hear it.

46:39 - Speaker 1
And.

46:39 - Speaker 3
I I've started incorporating my prayer life into more of that of like honest conversations with God. It's like an honest podcast with God, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, just being honest, yeah.

46:50 - Speaker 1
You know, danny, I would just say to that is like you have to pray the way that brings you joy, because that's how God would want you to pray, that's how God would want you to have that conversation. And I think, when you think about prayer as a performance which I'm sure there's already thousands of sermons on that, so I'm not going to pretend I have wisdom on that it robs you of what it's designed for.

47:13 - Speaker 3
Yeah, and the word that comes to my mind is just intimacy.

47:16 - Speaker 1
You know, I think that the sooner people can find out about the power of prayer as a founder. It's like a true startup hack. It's like a hack because each rejection, each failure at a launch or a deadline or a certain thing falls short the moment you just turn to, rather than go into Stack Overflow for the answer, or to Google or chat GPT for the answer, a snack overflow for the answer, or to Google or chat GPT for the answer, but you go. All right, I'm just going to like pray, not with like the expectation of an answer right now, but just the anticipation of like. I know that every time I do pray, the Lord stirs something up. So let me go do that, Let me go have that intimacy with him. And it's just, it's a hack, because the highs are really high and the lows are really low. I know I've said that multiple times on this podcast, but I really do mean it and it's truly. It's just a beautiful thing, prayer. It really, really, really is.

48:15 - Speaker 3
I know you have to go, so I'm going to ask you the last two questions, please. What are you hoping for at Faithly?

48:45 - Speaker 1
Yeah, at Faithly. You know, I actually was on Faithly when Alicia introduced it to me back in New York while I was with Mission to Labs, like going through the in-person cohort, and I got on Faithly and I saw what you were aiming to do and I've seen like I just logged in, I think, this this week and I finally like see now where it's like really headed and so you've done so many cool improvements, like the aesthetic is like way better. It feels like more like a network now and it's very clear. I think I'm just like looking to really connect with other like-minded individuals, but just like also like share any wisdom for anyone that's out there.

49:04
That's on faithfully, like going hey, like I've been doing ministry or I've been a missionary, but I've never worked at a startup or I've never worked into tech. Guess what it's like. Most of my team composition has been people just like you who've never worked in tech and it's been a beautiful thing to be able to pour into them because someone took a chance on me. I would love to take a chance on someone else and so if there's anything I can do for anyone on Faithfully, I'm just like guide you, lead you in any way I can Happy to do that, so that's what I'm hoping to do.

49:32 - Speaker 3
That's perfect. That's exactly what I want people to do, so I appreciate that. And lastly, how can we be praying for you and your family?

49:39 - Speaker 1
Yeah, I think you know, in terms of praying for me and my family, I think, just you know, would love prayer around just continued continued humility in my leadership, in the decisions I make and how I carry myself. So I would love that. And then for my family, I think just you know, continued spiritual, spiritual discipline. I think that we, every one of in my family, works super, super hard and it's easy to neglect the spiritual rhythms that are so important that we've talked about in this podcast. So just prayer for them, like soften their heart, to really prioritize that. So, yeah, those two things.

50:19 - Speaker 3
Well, thanks for the conversation. This was great.

50:22 - Speaker 1
No, of course, and thanks for having me. And yeah, yeah, if anyone wants to reach out like message me on the faithly website or you can follow me on instagram or linkedin at where is amar?

50:33 - Speaker 3
so there it is all right, that's it for the podcast.

50:36 - Speaker 2
Thank you for tuning in to the faithly stories podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. The Faithly digital platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection, foster collaboration and promote growth within the church and ministry space. Remember to subscribe, rate and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you. Stay tuned for more uplifting tales from the front lines of ministry on the Faithly Podcast. Stay bold, stay faithful and never underestimate the power of your own story.