Called to Build Authentic Community - Eddie Dhanpat

00:01 - Speaker 1
My wife ended up getting very sick, ended up in the hospital and intensive care. It really knocked not just down a peg, I mean, it just knocked me out. So unfortunately, as is the case with many pastors that I talk to, when you go to seminary, nobody teaches you how to be a good dad, a good husband and a sustainable pastor. So when this happened, I just had no margin left to really pull myself up from where we were as a family and continue to lead the church. So unfortunately, you know, a year later we ended up having to close the doors of that church. Hey everyone, my name is Eddie Danpat. I'm a pastor here in New York City, queens. I'm a native New Yorker, married, have two kids. I've been a pastor for about 15 years here in New York City. The church I pastor is Renew City Church and it will eventually become Little Neck Campus Shelter Rock Church. And this is my Faithly Story.

00:55 - Speaker 2
Welcome to Faithly Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life. Join us as we delve into their challenges, moments of encouragement and answered prayers. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. Learn more at faithlyco. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired as we unveil the heart of faith through stories from the front lines of ministry. On the Faithly Stories podcast.

01:37 - Speaker 3
Could you tell us about your faith journey?

01:40 - Speaker 1
My faith story is not extraordinary compared to most people. I did grow up in a Christian home, but my father became a Christian late in his life and so I had a lot of struggles early on in his life and eventually he found Jesus and got saved. Right when I was born. Now, like most people who grew up going to church, you know I lived one way at church and then I lived another way at school, and you know, at uh in my neighborhood, and so you know I was really great at like memorizing Bible verses and um, being a part of the Christmas programs for kids and things like that. But in school I was a very different person. You know I had a lot of behavioral issues. I got in trouble a lot in school, and so my life went on like that for many years until about 18, where I had an opportunity to go to a Christian conference.

02:34
That Christian conference was Urbana in 2000. And that conference really changed my life. It brought to the forefront of my mind an awareness that God was too big to just be the Lord of part of my life. He needed to be the Lord of all of my life. And so I remember there at that conference, during one of the worship sessions. It was very picturesque, it was very idyllic. We were there worshiping through the new year and I just remember feeling this overwhelming presence on me saying that I needed to commit all of myself to Jesus. And so so that started me down a track of being much more involved with ministry, and specifically I was involved with campus ministry. So I was pretty involved with Campus Crusade, or now known as CRU, and did a lot of work with them at Queens College, which is where I graduated from.

03:36
And when I was in college I was wrestling back and forth between what I would do with my life as most people in college, wrestling back and forth between what I would do with my life as most people in college. And I was going back and forth between either becoming a doctor or doing something else. And I was fortunate enough that God put a doctor in my life and I saw how hard he had to work and I said to myself, man, I can't do this. This is an all-encompassing kind of thing. You can't go halfway with being a doctor.

04:07
And so I just kind of said to myself like I want to do the one thing that I really enjoy, which is helping people to understand Jesus better, and so that started me on a track to pursue ministry full-time. And so I came out of college and didn't really have much prospects for a job, and so I ended up jumping into seminary right away. And so I came out of college and didn't really have much prospects for a job, and so I ended up jumping into seminary right away, and in that process I also got married, and so literally I'm in seminary, I get married and then I start working as a full-time youth and young adults pastor, and so I did that for a few years and then eventually ended up in church planning, which is where I am today.

04:48 - Speaker 3
There's so much there, juan, who did you go to Urbana with?

04:54 - Speaker 1
So in New York City, you know InterVarsity and Crew, there was a lot of overlap between what they were doing and so I went to Urbana with InterVarsity, but it was kind of like a group from Queens and then also a partnership with my home church, first Baptist, and Flushing. It was kind of just a bunch of people it was like maybe 20 of us just kind of, who all knew each other we're in the same circles and then we all decided to drive down there. A funny story, I mean we all piled into a big bus and so some random person I don't even know this person was willing to drive. A bunch of college students and some young adults. It was like a I don't even remember.

05:38
I mean, from here Chicago is at like 12 hours, 13 hours, something like that. It's like in the dead of the winter. You know, like I think at one time like the bus overheated or something, and so some of us are like sleeping on the floor. Sleeping on the floor because not everybody had a seat, so there were some people in the back. This is probably illegal at this point, but there was a few people that were in the back. We had to rotate Like all right, you're on the floor for the next two hours or whatever, but we made it, we got there and it was a special time.

06:06 - Speaker 3
Those are the best trips when you're doing slightly unsafe, but it's just like yeah, we all signed our waivers, so we were good, you know um. So what was the struggle when you were younger about like being all in and not all in like in your mind what was?

06:21 - Speaker 1
that tension. When my dad got saved, he was as raw as a Christian could be, you know, and so he definitely struggled with a lot of things that you know plagued him early on in his life, and those struggles like continued. And so, you know, sometimes, like I remember, like you know my dad, he would just get real ghetto at one point, you know, with certain people, but then he would just be you know or something, or listening to the word, he would be very convicted, and so in some ways I saw him teetering back and forth between just like a you could say like a worldly life and you know, and a life that's more devoted to God, and so it almost normalized for me, like okay, this is, this is kind of what it means. Now, please don't hear me, I'm not trying to knock my dad.

07:12
My dad, you know, my dad, was one of those guys who was just, he was all or nothing. So like he's the person who brought all, most of my, my extended family, my aunts and uncles, to faith, right, like they were not followers of Jesus before. But when he got saved, he got so excited about it that he started going around sharing with everybody, you know, but this was his personality, you know, like he would, you know he would hot and cold, like he would just go back and forth between that and so, yeah, that kind of normalized for me, like, okay, you know, like when I'm at church, that's when it, you know, that's when it matters, but then, like at home, you know the rules are different, you know and so, but you know, it wasn't until I got older where I realized that I needed to live a more integrated life. What's your background?

07:58 - Speaker 3
and what's the church background.

08:00 - Speaker 1
Yeah, so my father and mother, they come from a small country in South America called Guyana, so I am a Indo-Caribbean, if that makes sense. So far enough back. You know I traced back to India. You know many generations back and but you know, culturally I'm probably more alike to someone like from Trinidad or from Jamaica. We have similar cultural kind of Trinidad or from Jamaica. We have similar cultural artifacts or whatever. And so the funny thing that I say is, like my wife, she's actually from Pakistan and so although we look similar racially, we're actually culturally very different. She's much more East Indian in her framework and how she understands simple things in life, and I'm much more West Indian in my, in my understanding, in my, in my makeup. So what about your church, was it?

08:51 - Speaker 3
a mix.

08:52 - Speaker 1
That's right. Yeah, so I grew up Baptist, that's. You know. So funny stories.

08:55
My dad was converted by like a Pentecostal church, Right, so you know, you know he tells are we all yeah, I mean he tells a story like there was, god bless, the old abuelas from Puerto Rican, churches that are charismatic, so a group.

09:14
My grandmother, who was also in the States at the time, she had been going to one of these churches in the Bronx and so I don't know why she was trucking up into the Bronx, but she was there and so she literally, you know my dad was trying to duck her, you know, many times because my grandmother wanted to pray for him and he just kept ducking, you know, and finally she sawies and they came down and literally they had like a full on, like deliverance, you know, did some deliverance ministry on him and you know my dad had like a very radical conversion moment for him, for himself, and so so started Pentecostal.

09:59
But then the only church that was close to us you know he didn't want to trek out to the Bronx the church that was close to us and he had some friends was a Baptist church. So if you could just imagine, you know, the switch back and forth. So I grew up primarily Baptist and that's the way I, you know, I, you know, dot my I's and cross my T's, theologically for the most part, but you know, have a great appreciation for the charismatic tradition and you know what it meant for my family and you know what I think it means for the church today.

10:32 - Speaker 3
So where was your first pastoral experience?

10:35 - Speaker 1
Yeah, so I started at my home church so a job had opened up there as the youth young adults guy. So I started April 2008 and I was married in October 2008. So it was a relatively larger church in the area. You know a couple hundred people, you know relatively stable youth program, young adults program, you know. So it was a good starting point. It had its own issues, you know, and a little bit of a unique situation, but I'm not sure if you want to go into all that, but you know it was little bit of a unique situation, but I'm not sure if you want to go into all that, but you know it was a good place for me to cut my teeth.

11:10 - Speaker 3
I'm actually more interested in your experience as a pastor being at a home church, because you know the saying about the prophet is dishonored in his hometown. So I'm very curious as to what your experience is pastoring at your home church.

11:23 - Speaker 1
It's an interesting question because I think I I in some ways had a different experience that I think would be typical. Most of the challenges I had in my first my my, my first vocation were not because of people who, you know didn't offer me enough respect or any. You know. Like. You know, I was actually pretty well received, you know, by by the leadership and some of the. You know there's a deacon board, you know that kind of governs the church in the Baptist setting. Most of those folks were very appreciative when I had joined. You know I had a little color to the staff team but also just because I had been coming up, I had been teaching the Bible. You know, there in different settings, like people really thought, yeah, this was the right fit for me. Most of the issues I had was because of my own, you know, inexperience, like my own naivete, you know. Like I was not ready for the role that was put before me and I definitely paid for it. You know those first couple of years.

12:20 - Speaker 3
Can you give some examples of your mistakes when?

12:22 - Speaker 1
I had taken over the ministry, there was a moral failure that had taken place in the ministry and the leadership at the time had decided to have me kind of come in, and in many ways I was coming in from the outside. I wasn't a part of the youth program at that time. I had some relationships with people that were key in leadership to the ministry, but I didn't realize what the real issue was, you know. So I'm wired more towards like an entrepreneur. I'm wired more towards like let's hit the ground, here's, here's the goals, let's go get it.

12:58
And so I come into this setting with people that were just hurt from from the transition, that were just hurt from the transition.

13:05
You know, one of the persons that they had come to love and had been shaped and formed by, you know, really had kind of betrayed them, and so there was this gaping wound in them.

13:15
And so, rather than come at them with kind of pastoral care, I'm just like, look, new day, let's get going, let's move in this direction. And it was absolutely the wrong thing to do. And so because of that, literally within two weeks of me being there, the leadership team of the Youth and Young Adults Program had gone to the leadership, the pastors and the deacons and said we want this man fired. Please get him out of the ministry. He's really bad for it, insensitive, all of those things. I was talking to one of the leaders and I remember this. They were recording my conversation so that they could use that recording to take it to the leadership of the church without telling me right, like they like trying to spring things on me. You know, thank God, you know I didn't say anything too crazy, but you know it was very tense for a long time because I did not have a very high shepherding IQ at the time.

14:13 - Speaker 3
I can totally relate. I think I convinced myself as long as you're building, then it's helpful to people. But only this year I'm learning shepherding actually is more important because people are so emotional. We are emotional beings and that's just part of our psyche and spirit, because my motto was always I'm building the house. They're going to appreciate me after they build the house. But once you build the house, they don't want to live with you. It's like, oh, I'd rather be like a homeless, but like, love them, and then we'll figure out the house. They don't want to live with you. It's like, oh, I'd rather be like a homeless, but like, love them and then we'll figure out the house later. And yeah, yeah it's. I'm glad you said that because I think that's just a common mistake we all make. And you know, when you're younger, like yeah, people would tell me love them, love them like I am loving them. It's like, no, no, yeah, so I appreciate that. So where did you move toward after?

15:10 - Speaker 1
yeah. So you know, thank god there was some breakthroughs in the ministry. Uh, some of my my worst, uh opponents became some of my best supporters, and that was pivotal in in the ministry and so we had about two years towards I was there for about seven years and so it doesn't matter, you know, five years of like grueling, you know. But then the last two years were really sweet because it was really. I really felt like the ministry had come into its groove and we were kind of moving in the right direction. But in spite of all that, I still felt like I wasn't firing at all cylinders. You know, there was a part of me that was okay with managing ministry but there was a part of me that really loved kind of the grittiness of like starting things Right, and so I really enjoyed that aspect of the ministry. So whenever we had opportunities to do it, you know that kind of brought me joy.

15:57
And so at this point I had no idea about church planning or anything like that. I had, you know, no clue. All I knew about churches was that look for the big churches, they're the ones that can pay you. You start off as a youth young adults guy. You work your way up as a so on and so forth. I had no clue about church planning. And then, as God does, I was fortunate A church planner came into my life. I was planning a church in Queens and I saw what he was doing and I thought to myself man, this is exactly what I would love to give a shot, I'd love to put my hand towards. And so that kind of started me down a route of church planning, you know.

16:32
And so I, you know, I started going down the route of church planning and the first church I planted was Mosaic City Church. And you know, I did it in the worst way possible. I planted that church with no money. You know, I did it in the worst way possible. I planted that church with no money, no people, no experience, right. But you know, I had connected with a program in New York City it's called Redeemer City to City, and they, you know, they kind of acknowledged some of the gaps I had in experience. But they said they saw that I had scored high on like entrepreneurial gifting, and you know lead, you know skills and capacities. And so they said, all right, you know this, you know, we're willing to give you a shot. You know, you know, so we'll train you and you know, kind of send you on your way. It was a great experience, you know that, first church plant.

17:20
But so, you know, being on such a precarious foundation right, no money, no people, no experience you really just kind of like running out there on faith and hoping that stuff happens. We did okay. We launched in Easter of 2017, I think you know 16 or 17. We launched that. We did okay. We're about 120 people at our launch service Again, not crazy numbers, but considering where I was and what we were able to do, and then, being in New York City, we thought that was a success.

17:54
But when you're on a precarious foundation, any small wind can knock you over, and we had a health scare in our family.

18:03
My wife ended up getting very sick and was ended up in the hospital and intensive care and you know it really, it really not not just down a peg, I mean, it just knocked me out and so, and so, unfortunately, as is the case with many pastors that I talk to, you know, when you go to seminary, nobody teaches you how to be a you know good dad, a good husband and a sustainable pastor, right, like you know, listen, so many classes I've taken on how to read the Bible, how to interpret it, how to preach it right, how to care for people, leadership skills, but like self-care, you know, and rest and doing things within your margins, you know like these are things that were not accentuated.

18:52
I mean, I think nowadays people are really pressing into it, but when I went through seminary it was not the case. They just kind of assumed that you did it or that whoever you were working with, whatever church you were working with, they were kind of working these things into your framework. But the truth is, you know, I was very lacking in this area and so when this happened, I just had no margin left to really, you know, pull myself up from where we were as a family and continue to lead the church. And so unfortunately, you know, a year later we ended up having to close the doors of that church. But do you?

19:24 - Speaker 3
feel like if you'd done something differently, things would have changed.

19:29 - Speaker 1
Yeah, you know, I think the danger, I think, with church planning and then, I think, just starting businesses in general, is like people who are wired like me, I think, wired like you as well, I think you know is, you know it's very easy for us to divert attention and energy, you know, and like pipe it into this one thing we're doing right. So pulling, you know, from reserves, from every aspect of my life, from my family, from my health, you know, from sleep, you know, and just kind of like diverted all because we want to see this thing that we're super excited about succeed Right. And you know, the way I rationalized it in those days was like, well, you know. Similarly, like, you know, people be happy once we build a house, right. Or, you know, for me, you know, once the church gets started, right, then I can pay attention to all these other things, right.

20:23
And I think the lesson to be learned was that I'm human and if I don't rest, if I don't take care of my health, if I don't direct attention to my kids and my wife, if I'm not present with them or I'm not even able to be present with them because I'm weighed down by all of the things that the church needs from me. If I don't make those boundaries right, then I'm really setting myself up for failure. And it doesn't matter how strong the church is, or it doesn't matter what things you may put in place, like you legitimately have to be empowered enough to say no, right. And so I didn't know that was a thing.

21:07
When I was in my first church plant, you know, I just figured like, look at all these people and look at how hard they work and look at how crazy you know that, you know their schedule is and that's why they're successful, right. And then when you press in, you're like, no, that's not why it's successful. You know, it's usually a whole host of other things unrelated to how much work you're putting in. And so that I think the biggest lesson for me was recognizing that it's not selfish for me to take care of myself. It's not selfish for me to put boundaries around my family, and God's going to be okay if the church doesn't grow 20% this year because I diverted my attention and time to myself and to my family. He's okay with that. So that, I think, is something that was an important lesson for me to learn.

21:56 - Speaker 3
So that transition to okay. Then what happened after? Did you start renew right away, or you?

22:00 - Speaker 1
took a break. I had a lot of PTSD, you know, from church planning. After that, you know I just was. You know I was upset at God, honestly, just like why you put me through this, all you know. Like you, you know I'm out here trying to expand your kingdom and you you just kind of let the worst things happen to me and my family, you know, and so so honestly. But at the same time, you know, I also had put so much into this.

22:26
Like you know, I had financial needs. You know, at this point, like I was like down to like the last penny I had and you know, at the time my wife wasn't working. So it was just kind of like, you know, frustration with God but also recognizing I need to support my family, right, I need to support my family, right, I need to pay bills. And so you know I was thinking about pivoting and starting a different career. But I'm like man, anywhere I start is not going to pay as well as if I start working as a pastor somewhere else. So that was kind of in the backdrop and God was very fortunate to me again, providing me an opportunity to work at a phenomenal church. You know I had an opportunity to work with a church here in Queens that really specialized in kind of emotional health, and it was exactly what I needed. I needed a space where people who are respected would push me in this very important area. You know, like I remember the one of my supervisors saying to me like if you don't take a Sabbath, we're going to fire you. You know like that kind of deal, like that's kind of how serious they were about emotional health and and wanting to make sure that their pastors really live this out. And so now the role that I had taken on at that at that church, you know, probably wasn't a good fit for me on at that church, probably wasn't a good fit for me, but man, god used that as a great season for me to really figure out some of the core things that I can't neglect if I want to be able to just do life for the long term without hating what I'm doing and ostracizing my wife and my kids and really allowing things to take a toll on my body. I was there at that church for about two years and it was really important for us to be there. So do you want to hear that? You know kind of how we got into renew. Okay.

24:05
So you know, I was kind of coming up to my window of time with this church and I got to a place where, you know, it was kind of like you've got to figure out whether you're here with us for the longterm or is this just kind of a stop off. And, as much as I love the church, I kind of realized that this was not my best contribution to the kingdom. I didn't know what it was, but this was definitely not it. And so I kind of had said to the church I said, look, if you guys would be gracious enough to me, I don't want to waste your money by taking on a role that you're hoping that I take. So, you know, would you be willing to just like give me a month to figure out what my next step is? You know, and they were gracious to me. They said, sure, you know, we appreciate your honesty and you know we'll give you a month just to kind of figure out what your next step is. And then, you know, we'll kind of send you off with well wishes, you know so. And then you know we'll kind of send you off with well wishes, you know so, in that month. You know, I just started processing God, what's next for me, and again everything's on the table. You know, working outside of the church, you know, at this point we're a little bit more stable.

25:07
My wife was working and so we were at a place, if I was going to make a shift, that we could have done that, and God just started to line up certain things that pointed us back into church planning, and the most compelling thing was that you know, of anybody in the church planning my first church plant that really got hurt the most, it was my wife, right, I mean physically, emotionally, everything right. And we started having a conversation and she said to me something that really just stopped me in my tracks, because I never expected her to say this. She said to me you know, when I think back about our Mosaic time, I really felt like we were robbed, right. I really felt like we never got a chance to actualize the community that we felt called to build. And when I heard that, I said what? You know, where's this coming from? You know, like, of all the people to to to strike off church planning, off our list, it would have been her, because you know that and truthfully, I was hoping she would, because then it would just really say, all right, you know, I'm just going to completely divert and do something different. And so she kind of opened the door for for us to even start thinking about church planning.

26:13
And then, sure enough, as we started walking down that road, just God started lining up stuff. And so there was a church in Bayside, another church plant that had been going on for about seven years, that was kind of coming to kind of the end of its season. I said, god, if this is really what you would have for us, then you've got to line up these things, because I'm not going to, something is not right with my intuition. In many ways I'm a little too crazy sometimes. So so, god, you please line this up. If you line this up, we'll go.

26:42
And so you know, we were living in Kew Garden Hills at the time and God just started making things converge into Bayside. So first my wife she gets a job, you know, basically right outside of Bayside. My son gets into a school in Bayside. We were trying to move him out of the school he was in to get him into a school in Bayside. He gets in. And then, you know, we're like, oh, we need a place to live. If we don't have a, you know we can't work out. And then, sure enough, you know, a place opened up that was phenomenal and right in our budget. We said, all right, all three of these major things in our life all happening within a month and pointing us into this Bayside area. So we made the move and took a role with this church plant.

27:28
I learned from my last experience. Instead of coming in trying to just create new direction, I said, look, I'm just going to stick with you, guys for the next year. I'm going to love on you. New direction. I said, look, I'm just going to stick with you guys for the next year. I'm going to love on you, I'm going to preach the word of God Because, at the end of the day, my goal is that you still love Jesus after this process.

27:43
And so I did that, did that for one year, no strings attached, just showed up and after that one year, lots of people had transitioned out.

27:53
But then some people that I was close to started to transition into that community and then, after that one year, we kind of felt like God was saying all right, now is the time for us to really step forward and do something new. And so the birth of the name of Renew City Church was really out of this idea that God can take old things and make them new again. And so it was really a reflection in Revelations. At the end there, when Jesus says you know, I'm making all things new, right, it's almost like in light of creation. It's like Jesus saying I'm making all things new again, right. Like you know, I already had created. It was good, things got messed up, but all right, no worries, I'm going to make this new again. So that was kind of our story as church planners. It was also the story of the community that we were bringing into this new direction, and so that's kind of how we latched on to it, to that idea, that story, that narrative, and that's when Renew City was birthed.

28:51 - Speaker 3
Yeah, I need to get Maush on because I have so many questions for her. By the way, for anyone who's watching I don't know if they realize like I go to Renew Eddie's my pastor. So I have a question Like, how did you connect with CenterPoint? Because I found out about you guys when I started, like church hopping to find a church. I kind of settled on CenterPoint in Massapequa but it was like so far, yeah, right. And then, thing to find a church, I kind of settled on centerpoint in massapequa, but it was like so far, right. And then I heard about renew and I was like, oh, let me give it a shot. And then like for me, I've always just known in the presence of something if it clicks. And like that first sunday everything clicked. I was like, oh, I'm home, okay, and so I've been with you guys ever since. So, yeah, how did that happen?

29:36 - Speaker 1
yeah, first let me let me say you know, danny, we love that you're a part of the community and you're definitely a handful, but we love you Nonetheless. No, I'm just kidding, you know, danny is phenomenal.

29:45
He's not kidding, yeah, so how we connected with with CenterPoint and Brian McMillan. Brian is a phenomenally gifted spiritual entrepreneur, right Like I mean, you know, to call him a church planner would just be like a downgrade. This man is like he just exudes, starting new things and like pushing things forward. And so I had connected with Brian a few years before I had even started thinking about Renew. But when I started planting Renew I knew, okay, so my first church plant.

30:20
You know, we were part of a network, but the network wasn't really as strong in New York City. And so the second time around I said we've got to find a network of people that will be able to love us, support us, care for us, understand this area to some extent and are willing to kind of come alongside and help us. And so Brian McMillan is a part of a denomination, he's an affiliate with a denomination phenomenal denomination that really got what we were trying to do and were willing to come alongside of us. And so Brian was kind of the direct contact point for us, you know, when we were thinking about planting. And so, um, so that's how we got connected more formally with Centerpoint. Um, you know, I, I love Brian, I love what he does, I think he brings. He brings an important piece to just church planting in this region and uh, you know it was, it was, uh, it was beneficial for us to be connected with him.

31:15 - Speaker 3
Um, you know, in the season that we were, the reason why I ask is because, like, I just view everything in my perspective.

31:23
So it's like I went to Centerpoint, I saw you guys and then you guys launched in Flushing and then COVID happened.

31:31
It's like every possible way, like Satan tried to kill the church, but like it showed your resilience and I think in the early years I didn't appreciate like it's not just loyalty, it's just like this covenantal commitment you guys have that makes your community so special.

31:50
And I'm not saying you like I'm part of that, but like I felt like, wow, people just genuinely love and care for each other here, right, and not in like a fluffy way because we get into some deep like talks with those guys, right, and you know it's sometimes like it clashes, but like at the end of the day, we just we just love each other so much. I was like man, this place is so special and I've only had a handful of those things and the fact that, like, what we do is just simply to share our experience of faith and trust in the Lord, that's the thing that keeps me coming back and never wanting to leave. And I want to know, like how you kind of like fostered that right, and it was that what Mawish was talking about? Like? What did she mean by community in that sense?

32:35 - Speaker 1
Yeah, I, you know just a little bit bit of our background in church. We really were fortunate in our church upbringing because we both went to the same home church growing up. All I've known since I've been young is multi-ethnic church. My home church, first Baptist Church of Flushing. They were actually cited by a urbanologist, I guess, or a missiologist, you know, back in the days. What was his name, brian Bakke, or I forget. I forget his name. Anyway, he wrote a book on urban ministry and he cited my home church as like an example of like multi-ethnic church. Now, this is way back like in the 80s or whatever. You know it's an old book, you know whatever. And so I grew up in that context. I grew up with different congregations, different languages, different cultures.

33:27
My most favorite memories from that church is the potlucks we would have. We'd have these international dinners and phenomenal, I mean you're legitimately having like, not just like, like like Chinese food and like Latin food and like India. I mean you're having like down to the region, you know, and this is like, this is like the the grandma cooking. You know this is not like the stuff you get in restaurants and like you're just walking around at this buffet and it's, it's amazing, you know, and it was like there's so much food there that you couldn't fill it on two plates, you know. And like you legitimately couldn't taste everything because it was so much from so many different places, you know, and that to me was like man, if there's ever a picture of what heaven looks like, this is it. You know, this is the banquet table. You know, this is the image we get in heaven, where there's like so much unique, beautiful things that every culture throughout history has contributed, that, like that banquet table, that you know that first few days in heaven is going to be phenomenal, right, because you know there's all the cultures that have, maybe not, that are not around anymore, but then they get to bring their, you know, their delicacies and all anyway. So so I just thought, man, like this is what community should always look like, this is what church should always look like, and so, similarly, when I was at Queens College, we also were a very unique campus movement in crew, in that our campus moves was extremely diverse, because at Queens College you have a very diverse population that comes to the school and so much of the Christian club was extremely diverse people from everywhere and so much of the Christian club was extremely diverse people from everywhere.

35:01
And so when we and then, similarly, my first job position as a youth young adults person was that I was the, the youth program was the only program that was integrated between all the different congregations. So you had, you know, the Chinese congregations kids would come here. The Spanish congregations, kids would come here. In the English congregation, their kids would come there as well, and so you had, kind of, it was the only ministry there that where there was this integration and required a really high level of you know, navigating all the cultural differences. You know. And then you know the, the differences between, like, parents' expectations and kids' expectations, and you know kids that are raised here in America versus their parents who are raised overseas, and helping them bridge that gap.

35:51
And so all of my experience has been building a community that, I think, is really what heaven will look like, right. And so when we launched out I mean you can even just tell by the name of the first church plant, you know Mosaic it was really an attempt to say how do we just, you know, take what we've grown up with and, you know, replicate it. You know how do we continue to flesh it out, and so when we finally got to Renew, it was really just very natural for us to say this is the only kind of community we fit in. Just very natural for us to say this is the only kind of community we fit in, you know. So the other aspect of this that I think is interesting for me is that the truth is, I feel at this point in my life I feel very awkward in a monocultural setting, like I don't.

36:29
It could be all brown people, right, like you know, even all Guyanese people, right. Like when I'm in a setting that's very homogenous, I feel very weird, like I don't feel like I connect, because part of my makeup and all of the my life experience has resulted in me being a little bit of like, um, a little bit more malleable and a little bit more, uh, willing to kind of like contort, and because of that I've picked up things from other cultures that don't necessarily fit in a more homogenous setting, you know. And so, yeah, you know, and so in many ways I think the community that we've been shaping is really just unique because of the experience God has really allowed me and Maush to partake in, you know, for the majority of our life.

37:20 - Speaker 3
That's one thing I never really understood about koreans. I mean, I understood like the first generation because, like language barriers, so you're having to be forced to like kind of be homogenous, but with like second and third gen because, like I'm always around like mixed people at school or at work or everywhere else in my life besides church, my home is homogenous. I'm just like, oh, and I like like diversity, like I love buffets, right, so like you have a diversity of cultures, yeah, and so, yeah, I never really understood, but I guess there's this kind of security and knownness and comfort. So I guess that part. But like, yeah, I guess my personality is like I didn't like one thing I didn't like boring. To me that's boring. I want variety. Yeah, yeah, I totally get that.

38:09 - Speaker 1
I think part of it too is there's also a reality of a very strong cultural identity. So a lot of the Asian cultures have very strong identities. I mean, they've been around for thousands of years, you know. So it's not as easy to I think you know, kind of let go of that because there's, you know, like Korean culture, chinese culture, indian culture, right, like they've been around for so long that they've really come up with, you know, tried and true cultural practices, right, I mean, you know there's not very many cultures that can can say that they've been around for thousands of years and are still moving forward, right, and so so I totally understand that, you know. So I think part of the unique thing about me is that because my parents are from the, you know, the West Indies, west Indies is very interesting, it's like a unique place. Again, just because of this is just a unique thing about me.

39:06
West Indian culture is also a confluence of a lot of other cultures. So, growing up, there's obviously an Indian stream that contributes to West Indian culture, but there's also an African stream and there's actually also even an Asian stream, that's. You know, you can chalk that up to the British, right, when they were running the world and they were trying to, you know, procure resources from this hemisphere. You know they were pulling from all the different people, from, you know, the different places that the empire had touched, and so what ended up happening is that there was all of this confluence of culture, you know. So, like, the way we make curry in the West Indies is different than the way they make it in the East you know the East Indies, right or there's certain African delicacies, african dishes that we eat, that's authentic of ourselves, that's similar to what you would find in some parts of Africa. And then the other aspect is that there's a lot of the indigenous people that are there that also have contributed to the culture, so people from, like the Amazon and stuff like that, and so we have dishes from them. That is something that we would eat and enjoy.

40:14
And so my dad just to my dad, you know, just to get a flavor of it, my dad would say that, you know, when he grew up in Guyana that you know, uh, whatever the holiday was, whatever religion cause, you have Christians, you have Muslims, you have Hindus uh, uh, you know. And then you have the, the indigenous religions. He would say, like, whatever the holiday was that everybody was partying. That's the religion, you were right. So, like when, when it was Christmas, you know the Muslims were Christian, right, and when it was Eid, you know the the Christians were Muslim, you know. Whatever, whatever the holiday was going, whenever it was holy, right, you know, and festival of lights and festival of color, you know everybody celebrated them, you know. And so you kind of had this, you know, no-transcript.

41:24 - Speaker 3
So the thing about culture and identity is like I get it because that's just how people grew up in a specific place in a specific time.

41:32
So people always want to share kind of their experiences, yeah, but what I'm realizing more and more is like when you move, like even for me, like I was born and raised in New York, right, but I lived in Atlanta for like two years and like the quote unquote culture there is like really different, right, and I'm trying to go out of LA and the culture there is different too.

41:52
So, as a Christian so this is this only applies, in my opinion, as a Christian I think it's much healthier, just and this sounds obvious, but I don't see a lot of people doing it is having a kingdom identity first and realize wherever you go, you're always going to be influenced by the culture.

42:12
And, again, we grew up in a household that had a culture because of our parents, right, they're immigrants, so we should honor that, but we shouldn't hold on to it like it's a fundamental truth of who I am right, like genetically, yes, I'm Korean, right, I can't change that. But culturally I'm more American than Korean, right, and I love Korean food, but I also love Indian food I love, like all these other kinds. So all this to say, I think people get caught up because they're so afraid of losing something they value but they don't realize with every new generation, time changes, culture changes, we all mingle and like, like you were saying, there has to be this renewal. So like it's cool to honor the past, but what if I like fuse korean and ind? Right, like a new fusion, right?

43:02 - Speaker 1
So that's what I mean of like people are trying to hold too much of tradition rather than honoring tradition but letting the new generation reimagine with the current context and stuff and so that's yeah, yeah, I mean I, so I'm going to I didn't mention this before but I think it's, it's fitting, you know, know, just far as like what the theological framework is for me. I really, early on in my, like my mosaic years, I really latched on to this concept of maybe are white, you know, from America moving overseas, and then those white missionaries raising their kids overseas in a different culture, and then when those kids come back they don't necessarily fit American culture right Because they were raised, the way they think about the world and framework, friendships are all different. And so when they come back to the US, although they racially and you know, let's say family history and all that, fits American culture, they themselves don't fit. And so they would refer to these people as third culture kids right, because they're kind of in between you know, they have some of the pieces that fit the home culture, but then they also have aspects of their identity that are from the culture they were raised. And so I just kind of took this concept and I said you know, I think there's a lot of people, just generally, and especially in a place like New York and maybe just major cities across the world, where this identity is also theirs, right? So here's what I mean If you're a second generation American, you are essentially a third culture person because you have the, the culture of your parents, which you know has its different uniquenesses and distinctives, but generally speaking, you're being raised in in America, and so, because of that, there's also departure from your parents cultural background, from your parents' cultural background.

45:03
So what does this kid have to do? Very early on, they have to figure out how do I navigate between the culture at school and the culture of my parents. And so you see things like, for example, the kid will be translating for the parent, right? So, because the parent doesn't have all the language skills, and so the kid's translating for them. So, a very practical way, all the way up to well, you know, explaining to mom and dad. This is how they do it here, mom, I know this is the way that it's done, you know back home, but this is how they do it here, right? That kind of navigating, negotiating, and so what I wanted to do is to say to those people that's a phenomenal skill set, a phenomenal skill set, that is an amazing level of cultural IQ that most people wish they could have, because that ability is something beautiful.

45:48
Now, what really took this up a notch for me is when I looked at like Ephesians chapter two, right, and you see there this language. This is the second part of Ephesians chapter two, I think it's 11, 11 to 22, where it talks about how, you know, there was a, there was a dividing wall right between the Jew and the Gentile, right. But Christ now is kind of like this bridge right between these two people. He essentially is helping, you know, the Gentile to kind of cross the bridge to the Jews and the Jews to kind of cross the bridge to the Gentile, where he essentially becomes like the person in between, right. And so you know, in many ways, I, you know, if I could be so bold I would say you know, jesus in many ways is a third culture. You know person, right. Or you know third cultural God, right. You know like God's desire is that, you know that all the nations would be a part of his kingdom. And so how does he do it? He steps in the void and he holds the hands of these two disparate people group and he brings them together right and so, and then you know, I think, just reflecting further on you know like.

46:53
We see this, the final analysis of it in Revelations. You know Revelation 7. Every tribe, tongue and nation is there, you know, worshiping at the throne. Now you have to ask yourself, how does that happen? If you look at the American church, you would presume that you've got like in heaven. You've got like the Korean church right, or the Korean section. You've got the. You know the South Asian section. You've got you know the Latino section. You've got the African American section. You've got the African section. You've got the white section right. But how ridiculous is that? To think that that's what heaven's worship is going to look like, right? I don't see it that way. I see that it's this mixture of people kind of moving in and out during this worship and, and you know, connecting with people that are very different than them.

47:44
Another beautiful thing about that revelations passage is that we also know that we're not just looking for some like homogenous. You know meta culture, right, there's a. You know we're in heaven and we've got our tribe, tongue and nation with us, right, like that's not by accident, right? So what we acquire here culturally and you know racially and you know that comes with us, right, it goes into heaven and so all of that just kind of tells me, like when I think about the kingdom of God, that of course we make provisions for, like first gen churches that are coming. You know, folks that are coming from overseas.

48:21
It's very hard in one lifetime to kind of fully integrate into the home country. No, I understand that, no problem. But, man, we should be aspirational in our creating of community such that when we build churches, man, they should be looking, we should always be aspiring to look more and more like that picture in Revelations, right? And so we need to learn the skills to do that. And so one more thing I'll add to this is I think today most people agree with what I'm saying. Culturally, racially, I don't think you would ever find somebody that would say I don't agree with you, pastor. But what I think the new call of the church in America is to really think about this along political lines as well. How do we do all of this but also move beyond some of the factions we've created politically, when the church needs to be aspiring towards bringing these folks together, not watering down who they are, but figuring out a way for us to operate together and still worship the same God who's above all of these things?

49:28 - Speaker 3
That's why I love the Trinity, because the whole idea of oneness, but with distinction, right, where you don't lose your individuality yet, you can kind of be united. And I totally agree with you. I think we forget what unites us, and it's the name of Christ, right, and what he's done. If we can honestly say, hey, we agree on this and that's the most important thing, then all the other stuff is kind of like you do you man, so you're not like hurting yourself, hurting other people or hurting the body like you know you, and it's almost like like marriage right, you make the vow, and it's not like, oh, you gotta do this, and this is like no, you made the vow, right, the vow was supposed to keep you together. Um, yeah, so we'll see. I think it's also just, it's uncomfortable being in a situation where you're unfamiliar, or like you hear something so jarring and so different from you, like, like we. I think it's just human nature to be afraid of the unknown.

50:33 - Speaker 1
Yeah, I think, I think that's that's a great, a great think. There's one thing you know, just to just to go back to the point about um, why I think the church struggles with this is I I honestly think that it's a hangover from like the sixties or I forget, whenever the, the fundamentalists, were fighting with the liberals right In the church, right, and what I think came about was like this kind of basically just PC culture, right, like, ah, listen, in the public space, you know, like, essentially, the liberals won, right, and we got to a place where we're just, like, you know, be careful what you say in public, right, because it's going to offend somebody. And you know, this kind of became the prevailing thing in the church right, of became the prevailing thing in the church right, and so, like, even in the church, there's a hesitation to to like qualify everything we say because we're afraid we're going to offend somebody right. Now, again, I don't, there's some people who take this, this idea, as a license to be just jerks, right, and I, I'm not, I'm not, you know, giving permission to those folks. But I, I think, if, if the church got to a place where we were willing to say, you know, tim Keller says it like this, right?

51:47
Tim Keller says that you know that the gospel is offensive, right, when you really understand the core of the gospel, it's offensive. But we don't have to be unnecessarily offensive, right, we don't have to offend people unnecessarily on like secondary, you know tertiary things, but where the offense is necessary is you know the gospel, right, the gospel is hard to hear, it's. You know, essentially, that you're messed up, and a real key component of this is that you're messed up, right and that's, but you're also in your mess. God still loves you, right, and he actually loves you more than you can imagine. And so the problem with, I think, the church today is like we're totally okay with him and God loves you, he's gracious with you, but we've lost this real sense of like. We can't forget that we're all messed up, though, and beyond that, like not that we're messed up and I need to like whack you with a Bible, right, or take the ruler out and hit your knuckles because you're a sinful person, but just the realization that this side of heaven, we are not who we are intended to be and we're going to fail. But God's grace is great enough.

53:05
So if we can normalize that right, like in our communities, then that means when we have cultural disputes, I don't have to, like, avoid, not, you know, hurting your feelings. What I need to avoid is being phony. And then, in light of that, knowing that, because I messed up, I'm going to have a messed up reaction occasionally, right, or I'm going to make a mistake. And so I need to be humble enough to say you know, I really made a mistake here and I need to make amends. Right, like let's normalize conflict in the church again, right, because that's the only way that authenticity can really build. And so, once you've said a couple of things and you've heard a couple of people's feelings, but you're gracious enough to go back and apologize, or you're humble enough to hear feedback and criticism that is not what you want to hear then I think we start to build a really beautiful community that the world looks at and says man, there's something different about these people. But if we just want to hang out with PC and let's just keep everything safe and my goal is not to offend you ever then I don't think we get far.

54:12
And this is why I think people look into the church and they're just like what about this is take. Just think about some of the people who are most popular now, even in the podcasting space, right, it's just, it's a lot of guys who are willing to say what they're going to say and are pretty irreverent about it, right, you know, when I think back to some of like the people, some of the pastors, key pastors, like a hundred years ago, I mean some of these folks, they had that kind of personality I think of like Charles Spurgeon years ago. I mean some of these folks, they had that kind of personality I think of like Charles Spurgeon, right Again, not like lewd or irreverent, but man, this guy would. He would say what he felt, and you know, you read some of his conversations, you know, and he was smoking cigars, drinking whiskey and having robust conversations with people not trying to protect their feelings, but just to kind of lay things out and also to be corrected when the situation calls for it. I think that's what we need to get back to and again, I don't want to pretend like I'm the standard bearer for this.

55:13
I'm not. It's what I long for, though. It's what I wish all churches were like, and so. So that's, in some ways, what, what I tried to, what I tried to bring to bear, you know, in in whatever and however broken way I can. You know, this is what I aspire to to bring to bear.

55:32 - Speaker 3
If you can say yes and amen to that, come to renew. It's a special, special place. And it's exciting because I feel like a lot of people, our generation is feeling it and seeing it. And it's funny because, like every time I think about gen z, I always thought, oh no, like these, these kids, but like they're the ones who are seeking the most authentic relationships and and so it's like, oh, it's coming. Finally we, finally we get to like, see what we want. Yeah, but not in a way where, like, I'm trying to hurt you, I'm just like it is what it is, let's work it out.

56:08
So yeah yeah, it's exciting for me.

56:11 - Speaker 1
Listen, you know, I think when you look at some of the people and again, hopefully I don't get myself in trouble here, but let's just say there's certain people in the political sphere right that you can criticize these people like left, right and center, you bring up everything that you possibly dredge up about these people and you throw them at them and these people could care less. Right, and part of the reason why is because they've already told you that they are this person.

56:40
you know, you know they have recordings of these people doing. You know, you know, by most standards, you know despicable things right Like, and the reason why none of the accusations stick is because you already know this person is this way right Now. If this person was trying to present themselves in a different way and then all these accusations came up, well, that that's where the disconnect and that's where that person would fall out of favor. But the fact that this person, as messed up as they are, has already shown you behind the curtain. You know none of the accusations you could throw at them can stick now and so, in some ways not not in that negative way, but man, what if the church was like that?

57:24
One of the things that saddens me back during COVID is that there were so many Christian leaders that were failing, and I think honestly, when I reflect back on it, the thing that hurt the most is that there was a persona put up, you know, whether by these people or by the people that were marketing these people as kind of like these you know saintly figures. You know these people that we should admire, that we should follow because they're you know they, you know them and God, you know they're good, right. And then when they fail and they fail horribly I think what's at the core of that is not that they failed, but that they betrayed us, right, that they, they presented themselves one way. They lied to me, right. Because I think most people can get over our failures, because all we need to do is look in the mirror and we see our failures clearly. It's the fact that they weren't authentic about who they were and their failures that really caused the disconnect, the hurt and the the pain that came out after their moral failures.

58:23
So I just think, man, what if the church, we get off of our high horse, our pastors in particular, get off their high horse, stop trying to protect their identity, so to speak. Their identity, so to speak, just be themselves right and try to call people to Jesus? Would that be enough? I don't know, I don't know. Is America ready for that? I don't know, right, but I just know that's the kind of church I want to be in and so, hopefully, we create a community that emulates that in some way.

59:01 - Speaker 3
If you could go back and fix one regret in your life, what would it be? Oh man, One regret.

59:10 - Speaker 1
You know people say this all the time, but I think it early on I wish I would have been more attentive to my own personal formation and my own character building than anything else. And so I think we just, we just live in like this, like microwave fast culture, where you know we expect, you know you put it in the microwave two minutes and it's ready to go. And there's a lot of examples of people like that that you know, whether it's through acquiring a social media, following in like a year, or you know, becoming very wealthy, you know in six months. Or you know just people you know achieving things that you know are desirable in the world very fast. But what we don't see is what happens when they acquire it, like 10 years later, right, and what, what manifests after that. You know whether they keep what they have or do they blow it up because of character issues that just kind of get exasperated, exasperated, kind of get exasperated.

01:00:26
So when I look back, you know, I think you know, sometimes I say to myself, man, I, you know, I wish I would have pressed in on this when I was younger, or whatever.

01:00:31
But then I remind myself that I think maybe God knows what's necessary for the long term than I do, and that all of my you know, you could say all of my mishaps or things that some would call failure, were really just God saying I want to build character and I don't want to pretend to be you know, again, I am not the character standard bearer. Right, I'm messed up, as you know firsthand, but I really believe that where I am now, I really feel confident that whatever God gives me, that there's a good chance that I'll be able to hold on to it, as opposed to if I was to get early success in life. And so, yeah, I don't know if that makes sense, but I'm really pressing in on character earlier on in life, um, and so, yeah, I don't know if that makes sense, but I'm really pressing in on character earlier on in life than anything else no, that makes complete sense, I think, unless you go through some really hard, hard stuff and they come out of it like matured.

01:01:35 - Speaker 3
You know you don't get to appreciate like the simple good things because they don't come around often or they're like really special because it's like so simple and with Renew, like I didn't have to earn it, yeah, like it, just I found it, but I didn't even find it like I was in the right place at the right time and I heard about it, you know, and then I just joined it and so I realized all the good things in life they're free, but you just have to wait right and it comes at the right time in the right moment. Because even coming to renew it was like at the right time at the right moment. So I totally understand, because I don't think I would have appreciated early on because I would have complained about all the other stuff I think was important. It's like no, like the people here are so special. When was your? I know she's the one moment with my wife.

01:02:30 - Speaker 1
That's a good question. When I, when we started dating in college, I had known her, known of her, when we went to the same home church together, so we were in the same Sunday school together and stuff like that. But you know very different, you know, you know funny story my wife's a twin and, like you know, she would come to Bible. You know her parents, you know she, she, you know she, she would come to Bible study with like matching sweatsuits with her twin. Her hair is like in a ponytail. I mean, you know her parents were not trying to, like you know, glam her up in any way, so it wasn't like I, you know, took notice of her at that point.

01:03:08
But when we got to college, you know, at this point I was pretty active with crew and I remember, you know, I had a conversation with her. I said, look, I'm thinking about going into ministry at this point and so I'm dating you with the intention to be married and so, like, if you're not on board with this train, you know now's the time to jump off. And when she said, you know, and this, this is legitimately like the first, like first two dates, or something like that, when she said, yeah, I'm down. You know, that was kind of like the the, the sign for me that, yeah, this is a keeper, this is somebody I need to hold on to. So because, you know, going into ministry there's no promise of like fame, wealth, you know, none of that stuff. You know you're actually going in for like a really hard life and lots of challenges, and so the fact that she was willing to say, yeah, you know I could care less about those things, I'm in it for the long term, that was that was compelling for me.

01:04:13 - Speaker 3
Yeah, it's the difference between do you love the person or do you love the life or the lifestyle. Last two questions what are you hoping for at Faithly?

01:04:23 - Speaker 1
You know, I appreciate what you're doing, man. I think that the connection that you're trying to build with churches is a positive, good thing, and I know that it's still in process and you're building all the pieces together, but it's fun because it's not it's not handcuffed to maybe some of the other social media platforms that you know really narrow what you can do and you know how you can connect and so, um. So, yeah, I'm excited to see where it goes, you know, and um, to see what, what, um what further connectivity is able to be developed because of this platform, and how can we be?

01:05:06
praying for you and your family yeah, I didn't get into it much but man praying for this merger, you know, it's a big deal, it's a big shift and there's a lot of differences but also similarities. And so just praying at the end, at the end of the day, I, honestly, you know, I I hopefully this doesn't sound too cliche, but I honestly don't care about the results at this point. I just care that, at the end of the day, people still love Jesus because of it, and so that that's what it boils down to me. You know, like I know I'm going to, we're going to make mistakes as we're transitioning. You know there's going to be hurt feelings, there's, you know, all of that stuff is. Let's just normalize it. But, uh, at the end of the day, where the where I draw the line in the sand is, people stop loving Jesus because of what we're doing, and so, um, so just praying that we God guides our hand, you know, through this process.

01:05:56 - Speaker 3
All right, thanks for coming on, and that's it for the podcast.

01:06:05 - Speaker 2
Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. The Faithly digital Platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection, foster collaboration and promote growth within the church and ministry space. Remember to subscribe, rate and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you. Stay tuned for more uplifting tales from the front lines of ministry on the Faithly Podcast. Stay bold, stay faithful and never underestimate.