Discovering God's Heart Together - Phyllis Myung

00:01 - Speaker 1
I just think God's love man, it's all around us. We just have to look for it and we can see it, and I think that's how I've been able to experience it and I really think because of that, I understand so much better now. Oh yeah, I do have this relationship with God. It is not just a God who's way out there and I'm here, or a God who's authoritarian or scary or distant, but it's actually a God who's like right there with us. And I think about that a lot, especially with the kids that I work with, and the kids who question a lot like is God real? And if I dig a little deeper, I'm like, oh, you know what they haven't really experienced, like the tangibleness of God, because they haven't really experienced the love of God through relationships and with people. And I hope I don't know, I hope that we could change that. Hi, my name is Phyllis and I'm a huge BTS fan and also a pastor in the greater Boston area, and this is my Faithly Story.

00:58 - Speaker 2
Welcome to Faithly Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life. Join us as we delve into their challenges, moments of encouragement and answered prayers. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. Learn more at faithlyco. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired as we unveil the heart of faith through stories from the front lines of ministry. On the Faithly Stories podcast.

01:40 - Speaker 3
So I begin every podcast by asking you know, could you share how your faith journey started?

01:44 - Speaker 1
Yeah.

01:45
So my faith journey started when I I want to say when I was a baby, because my parents, before they immigrated to the United States independently they both were had become Christians in Korea and then when they came over after they got married they started attending it.

02:05
My faith journey started as a baby, where I had my 100-day celebration at the church and I didn't I feel like I didn't own my own faith journey, probably until I was in ninth grade when I was at a high school retreat and just really felt like God was. God had always been kind of nudging me, I think, and calling me and kind of was like yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it just didn't click until I was maybe in ninth grade that I needed to kind of take my own action for it and I couldn't just let it be my parents' faith, but I actually had to take ownership of it. And so I would say ninth grade is kind of when, you know, I really dove deep into the Bible and I had a spiritual mentor who came to my house every week and we just prayed and dug into the Bible, memorized scripture and kind of all this stuff and helped me to grow so much and kind of give me a really solid foundation.

03:06 - Speaker 3
So I have a question because a lot of people have been sharing that like that retreat experience and youth group has been kind of like the beginning point or launching point and that's kind of also my story too. But like I guess for me I never really struggled Like if God was real or not. I just like assume, just because I grew up in the church, like you. So like my mom started going to church when she found out she was pregnant with me so I was just immersed in it. But for you, like, was there any like doubt that God existed or it was just kind of assumed there?

03:37 - Speaker 1
was any doubt that God existed. I knew that God was always there. I think for me what was that tipping point was I was just having a really hard time in ninth grade and I think for me there was a sense that maybe if I clung on to God for myself and not through kind of my parents, that I would experience something different, something more tangible of God, even though I knew God existed and God was always there and so there wasn't like a big question, it wasn't. No one had to convince me to believe. But I think I just felt like if I make this step, will something change and be different about my life in a more tangible and real way than it has been so far.

04:24 - Speaker 3
So what were you struggling with in ninth grade?

04:27 - Speaker 1
You know, I was struggling with depression and I think I, when I look back on it now, I'm like oh yeah, I was really depressed and I think it's.

04:35
You know, a lot of teenagers kind of go through their own kind of mental health, I think, crisis at some point, and I think it was.

04:44
I had this real standard of having to be perfect and feeling like I had to be perfect and just realizing that I was not going to be perfect and that I make mistakes and that I couldn't.

04:59
It was really hard living up to other people's expectations and you know, we had some other family things kind of going on too, and so all of those kind of combined and I was just feeling really depressed and really unsure about whether life was worth living or I don't know kind of just feeling really sad about the way that things were kind of, I think, unraveling in my own high school world and in my family and things like that. And so I don't know if I was necessarily looking for God to like rescue me from that. But I think I wanted some answers and I remember a lot of times just crying out to God and saying why? And there's no answer. Obviously that was coming like no audible voice. But I just felt God's presence in that and I think that's what kind of helped me to kind of really hold it together for my time in high school. Sorry, I'm in a booth.

05:58 - Speaker 3
Yeah, no, I get that.

06:00 - Speaker 1
You know, at our church we have lights that turn off automatically in our elementary room, and so sometimes when the kids are being really still, the lights will just shut off, and it's hilarious because the kids are like, oh my gosh, what just happened, and I was like you guys are being so still. He didn't even move a muscle.

06:16 - Speaker 3
I'm leaving that in.

06:18 - Speaker 1
It's just hilarious, and I was like what was so interesting it was Jesus, wasn't it? So, anyway, they're just like oh, so how did that start improving after ninth grade? Well, I have to. I give a lot of credit to my spiritual mentor, sydney, and she came to my house every week and we lived far from our church.

06:37
So, growing up in the Pacific Northwest, there were like pockets of, I guess, like Korean churches, and a lot of them were actually north of Seattle. And you know, we went to this Korean immigrant church that my parents were going to in Chicago and then that pastor had moved from Chicago to Seattle and so we just started going there. But because of where my dad was working, we happened to live like south of Seattle, so it took us an hour to get to church. So Sydney would drive an hour every weekend, yeah, down to my house and we would just spend hours like talking and reading the bible we went through this like huge, like discipleship workbook, um, and then she would often just hang around for dinner and just hang out with our family and then she would drive back up, and so she did this. I want to say she did this for a couple of years and it was like every Saturday and I think that helped me to understand better about who God was, what it meant to, I think, live a life that was surrounded by God and in God's presence, and to just give me some hope in a way that I think I didn't know I could have in God, because they don't really teach you that when you're sitting at church or in Sunday school at least not in my immigrant church experience they don't really teach you that when you're sitting at church or in Sunday school at least not in my immigrant church experience they don't tell you that.

08:09
And I think she kind of brought it at a more real level and I could really open up to her and talk to her about just kind of the difficulties that I might have been having in school, friendships and all the kind of typical things that a high schooler would be going through. And she was able to, I think, really direct me and show me how God gives us hope. And I think I always had an idea of that. But I think it just became more real and concrete when Sydney, we'd have these conversations together and I don't know, we'd just read the Bible together and I was like, oh wow conversations together and I don't know. We'd just read the Bible together and I was like, oh, wow, there's a lot of stuff in here.

08:49
And then, when she would just pray for me, and to me, seeing an adult who was actively pursuing God and living out their faith was really remarkable to me, because it was so different from the way that my parents displayed their faith and it was, yeah, it was just a really different experience and I was like, oh, this could be for me too, and there must be something to the fact that all these people cling on to God and have hope in God. And I think for myself I just experienced that numerous times where I was like, oh man, if it weren't for God, I just don't know how I get through life. And so, yeah, I feel like that's kind of what changed and what made it really real.

09:31 - Speaker 3
For me, how did you take that? And then actually let me, let me rewind in college. Did you continue to grow or did it come down? Because I shouldn't assume, but yeah yeah, no, it did.

09:44 - Speaker 1
I went. You know, I had a lot of people praying for me when I went to college and I don't know if it's because they thought I was really kind of naive. So they thought, wow, she needs a lot of prayer. But I, you know, I joined a church that was not too far from our campus and was really invested. And they I look back on it now and I'm like, well, it might not be the kind of place that I would have chosen now, but at the time it was really good. We had small groups, we had Bible teaching and, you know, we had a pastor that was specific to our campus and we had a community that we were building.

10:25
And I think I learned a lot about God in certain ways while I was there in college and I grew a lot and I just felt a greater sense of God's calling in my life, even though I didn't see the possibility of it. But I felt a greater sense of that in college and I think that's what really kept me going back to this church in particular and to growing there and just trying to figure out, like, what is my faith really about? What exactly do I really believe? And I think college was definitely a time that it challenged and brought up those questions and it was really eye-opening when I look back on it because I was like, oh wow, that was always kind of there. So, yeah, it was difficult when I look back on it, but it was such a good and rich time as well and I learned so much and I think I'm really thankful and grateful for that opportunity just to have grown so much in. I think I'm really thankful and grateful for that opportunity just to have grown so much, um in Christ, because of because of my time in college.

11:32
Uh, would you go to undergrad? I went to Bryn Mawr College out in Pennsylvania oh nice, yeah, I served at Antioch in Tonshacken yeah yeah, yeah.

11:43
So what was it about the church that like you feel, like now you wouldn't go back, or it's not the type of church that yeah, you know, I think I think a lot about what was so great about a Korean immigrant church experience and an English ministry that's attached to that and then also, like, on the flip side, what's not so great about it. And you know there was a lot of. I think there was a lot of spiritual abuse also and manipulation and I don't know. It's just interesting the way that certain things were kind of taught and I learned a lot about having to repent and what it meant to be a sinner but didn't really get much of God's love and grace on the other side, and so it was kind of a skewed look, I think, at God.

12:31
And at the time also, when I was in college and this probably dates me but evangelism was like really huge. We use like four spiritual laws. Like you know, you hand out booklets and there was like a particular way you evangelize and I look back on that and I was like, wow, that would not work today and that is definitely not something that I would. I would say, oh, for our youth group kids or college students or whatever be like, hey, let's do this. But it was the time where it was okay to do that and I still learned a lot and I was just like okay, like I was able to articulate my faith in this particular way and I used that and I was able to do that. But I also learned a lot about like what it meant to be like legalistic, about your faith too, and why that might not be so great and why that could be, you know, harmful as well. So, yeah, I think there's like a balance and I think I got too much of one side and not enough of kind of the other aspect.

13:33 - Speaker 3
Do you mind giving some details about what you mean by spiritual abuse, based on your experience, just so that people like listening could understand like oh wait, this is not okay.

13:42 - Speaker 1
Yeah, so you know, I had a lot of eyes on me during college, so whatever I did, people seem to just know. And somebody was clearly like reporting my activities and I was always surprised, not because I was trying to hide anything, but it was. It was really interesting, that kind of our pastors and some of the leaders would just come up to me and say, hey, I heard like XYZ was happening and I'm just like, how would you even know that? Like, are you in my dorm? What's going on here? Are you following me?

14:14
So I think it started out kind of like that. And then it was really about, well, you can't see this friend because they're not Christian or they're not a part of our fellowship and you can't hang out with this person because of these other reasons, and kind of limiting like who I can hang out with, what activities I could be involved in. And then if I ever did anything that kind of they didn't like or they kind of frowned upon, it was, you know, you're, this is like of the of Satan, and so you need to be prayed for and they would, you know, like they would pound on your back and pray for you.

14:55
I don't know if it was like an exorcism, but like they were trying to get Satan out of you because you clearly were doing what Satan was doing. But yeah, it was just really restrictive of who you could hang out with, what you could be doing and a lot of. Also, you know, you should take these classes because this is what you should be doing. And there was a hard and fast like no dating rule. And if you are dating, it was really you're kind of kicked out of everything. And also, like what you wore, you know people would say that's not modest. You need to change, like the type of shirt you're wearing or like you know whatnot. And so I felt like all of those kinds of things were manipulative and controlling and probably not really healthy. And but I think for me the hardest part was when I was feeling depressed and I was I really needed to, like, see a therapist and be on medication. The response from the church really was actually there's some sort of sin that you're not repenting of that is causing this and you need to to. You need to repent more and you need to pray. You know more and it's satan is causing this and you know, do you really want to be with crazy people seeing a therapist like you actually should just, you know, talk with the pastor and just kind of those kinds of things. And I think I could have benefited from therapy, I could have benefited from medication at that time if it hadn't been for the church. And I look at that and I'm just like man. That just is wrong and that's not right. Like you can have a belief, but you can also have room, I think, to let people get the professional help that they need, in addition to praying for them, right, in addition to like, yeah, taking an honest look at your life as well. Like I don't see anything wrong with that part. But when you're saying you can only do this, this is the only way you can be healed, I think it just gets kind of problematic. So it's just kind of things like that that I look back on and I'm like man. I wish I made different choices and I wish I was able to kind of stand up to that.

17:09
But you know, part of it is as you're growing as a Christian, you want the favor of God and you just feel like if I could just please these pastors who are like in direct line with God, then God will be happy with me too, because they're always saying to me how God is just unhappy with who. We are right, because it's like you're such a sinner, like you just you should be so thankful that Jesus even died for you, you know. And then I think it gets kind of twisted in your head that you're just like, oh man, like if I can't even make these pastors happy, how am I going to ever make God this perfect happy? And it just kind of gets twisted and, I think, jumbled. And then you're really striving hard to please these authority figures as a college student and you kind of do whatever they tell you to do and you're just like, if I could just do this, like God will be happy with me, like I'll be living right with God and the will of God. And I think sometimes that gets really confused.

18:11 - Speaker 3
So what's the good that you got out of it? That made you kind of solidify what you know and what you believe?

18:17 - Speaker 1
Yeah, I mean I think I learned a lot about God, like I gained a lot of knowledge about God and I think that's more so than an average college student would have gained knowledge about God. Like I was reading. You know, for our membership classes we had to read like systematic theology and it's like crazy. I was like I was, like, you know, 18, 19 years old and I have like this huge systematic theology book and reading all these other like theology, theology books and I'm just like whatever you guys give me, I'm reading and you know, reading like Bible study, commentaries and all this stuff, and I'm just like I was just like packed to the gills with knowledge and that was.

18:59
It was great, it was really helpful and I really read a lot of the Bible, like just so much, and I'm really thankful for that because I think it's helped me to get a solid foundation, especially when I think now, as I work with children and youth and families now, who the Bible is just not in kind of their regular reading or knowledge base, right when it was 20, 30 years ago, even a non-Christian would know basic Bible stories, but now it's not like that, and so I just really appreciate that, especially when it comes to, like sermon writing and I'm like, oh yeah, like remember that, and when I look back and reading the Bible and looking at kind of verses and things like that, like that has just been really helpful to me and I'm so thankful for that.

19:52
So, yeah, I feel like I gained a lot of knowledge, and knowledge is not a bad thing. And then I feel like, you know, post-college for me, a lot of it was experience and understanding the heart of God and so, and I think you need all those things right, just because we're human beings and we have all those different sides, and so we need all those things. And I think the same thing, but, like, what we need to know about God, it's not just head knowledge, but it's also not heart knowledge too.

20:17 - Speaker 3
Was your pastor from Westminster.

20:21 - Speaker 1
Actually, yeah, one of them was, and a bunch of them went to biblical also. So it was, yeah, and it was just like uber conservative and I, I would say I am not that conservative in terms of like theological leanings and thinking, so it's it's very interesting mean that church didn't allow women to be pastors, and neither did my church growing up. So like I just feel like every time in my mere existence is like a big defiance, so that's why I'm just like I don't think I would go back there again, because I think I just I wouldn't be able to exist in what I do now, simply because that was not, and it's still not, I think you know, acceptable.

21:03 - Speaker 3
Yeah, I mean I went to Westminster and so, like I know the culture around the Philly area, yeah, so are you currently on medication and going to therapy?

21:13 - Speaker 1
I'm going to therapy, but I have not been on medication probably for, I want to say, like over 20 years.

21:21 - Speaker 3
Yeah, how did the medication help you? Primarily because a lot of people have a stigma, like with drugs. Yeah, yeah.

21:28 - Speaker 1
No, medication is great. I learned a lot about when you have depression and when you have anxiety, kind of the things that happens with your brain chemicals, and when it's just like repeated, it's really hard for those brain chemicals to kind of get going again, for those brain chemicals to kind of get going again, and so the medication helps to do that. And it was so helpful for me just to kind of get to the place where I felt like I can talk about this and not completely shut down. Because that's the place where I was, where if you're constantly in that state of depression and you're constantly kind of in that shutdown phase where you're just I think it's like called the like polyvagal system, and you're just always kind of in that shutdown place, it's really hard to do anything and it's really hard to kind of I think even with therapy get the help that you need. But medication just helps you to kind of get out of that place a little bit so that you can do the work that needs to be done in order to help yourself.

22:29
Like I don't think medication alone can do.

22:33
You know it's not, it's not a miracle Like it's not like a miracle cure.

22:38
Like you gotta, you have the medication, but you also got to do the therapy and it has to kind of work in conjunction together along with, you know, nutrition and all this other stuff that has come out now. Just you know, the research on mental health and stuff has just increased. Like it just boggles my mind what they know now that they didn't know 20, 30 years ago. And I'm like man, I could have benefited so much from all that knowledge. And so, yeah, I always encourage folks like if sometimes you're in a place where you can't kind of get past that next level, and sometimes that medication it just helps and it's not a bad thing and you're not necessarily going to stay on it for the rest of your life, like it just you know, kind of depending on what your mental illness is and things like that, but like it's just it's, it's another helpful tool, um, and I think it's better just to think of it that way as and I think there's a lot of stigma around it.

23:42
Because people don't understand how medication works that, oh, it's going to make you lazy. At least that's what a lot of like k it. Because people don't understand how medication works that, oh, it's going to make you lazy. At least that's what a lot of like Korean Americans that I know will say it's going to make you lazy, it's just going to make you sleepy and sleep all day. And I'm just like, yeah, but you know what? Like your depression and anxiety, it like paralyzes, it makes you do the same thing. So sometimes there's certain medications that work better than others, depending on who you are, and you know it's a trial by error kind of thing, and like you got to try one thing and then kind of see that and under doctor's care, and it can be really helpful. And so I'm just like, let's break the stigma. It's like if you have a headache and you take Advil or Tylenol, right, or if you have high blood pressure, you take medication for that.

24:23 - Speaker 3
Same thing, same idea have high blood pressure, you take medication for that. Same thing, same idea. Yeah, I'm realizing more and more everyone's really different, like biologically and chemically. Yeah, we have to just figure out what works for us, even in our diet. Like there's so many diet fads that I like, because I feel like obsessed about getting lean, but like at the end of the day, you need to figure out like what works for your body and then move forward from there yeah yeah so for you, like what have you been learning in therapy?

24:49
and like for you, how is therapy different than like counseling?

24:52 - Speaker 1
yeah, you mean like pastoral counseling? Yeah, so you know, what I've been learning about therapy is that there is a lot of stuff, even from my childhood, that I have to mend from. And I love my parents and they did the best that they could with the tools that they had, and so I don't fault them, you know, and I don't like sit there and blame them like, oh man, they were terrible parents, so that's not actually really true. But they had limited tools. Like my dad, he was orphaned when he was five and he never grew up really with any parents, so there was no real model for him of what it meant to be a dad. And you know my mom to some degree. It was just a different time where she was growing up and the way that parents related with kids was really different. Kids was really different.

25:47
And so you're asking these two people, who grew up in this really different time in this different country, to come and parent in this brand new country, and so, of course, they're going to get a whole bunch of things wrong and I'm just like, well, that's what therapy is for, and I have the same attitude with my kid. I may think I'm an awesome parent and I'm doing such a great job. But I can 100% guarantee that my kid is probably talking to their therapist about the ways that I've screwed up and I'm like I'm okay with that, you know, but we're getting a little bit better. You know each generation right, because we're really trying not to translate and continue to pass on the generational traumas and like the like maladjusted ways that we kind of parent and things like that, because we were just human beings who are fallible. And so, yeah, I think there's a lot of that and a lot of like who I am today has a lot to do with the kind of messages and the things that I was reflected back when I was a kid and that just kind of gets ingrained in you. You don't even think about it. And so for me right now you know I have sticky notes all over my computer and, you know, on my journal and stuff that says I am enough and I need that because that was something that I just didn't get enough of when I was a kid.

27:06
That was something that I just didn't get enough of when I was a kid, and part of that is because I'm an oldest child, part of that is because I grew up in a, you know, korean immigrant household and it's kind of like you have to. You have to keep doing and achieving right, and you're trying to live out the dreams of not just your parents but like all these other people who are in this like far away country, are counting on you to like become something big, because that's they gave up so much just so that I could be here, right, and that's a lot of pressure and you're just like I just have to keep on achieving, and part of my personality is, well, if I don't achieve and if I don't overachieve, right, like what am I? What am I really doing? And that's just a part of who I am, and I'm trying to like really break that down because I think it's led to overworking, unbalanced like family, work life, like all these other things that I need to work on. And for me to be, I think, an effective pastor, I need to work on these things for myself so that it doesn't spill into my pastoring. And so those are the kinds of things I'm learning right now in therapy and I love a good therapist because they are professionally trained to understand and handle those kinds of things and help you work through all of that. So especially kind of like, I think, the different, like traumas and the ways of healing where pastoral counseling I'll just and you probably understand this because you went to seminary If you get like one class of pastoral counseling in seminary, you're pretty lucky and that's been my experience too, and I'm just like you know what.

28:45
That's not the same as going to a therapist who has to professionally train at school and then do a certain set amount of hours, thousands of hours of supervised training. And then there's me, who's got my Old Testament, my New Testament, theology and my Bible, exegesis and my Greek, and then my one class of pastoral counseling and I go in there and you know there's a crisis that's happening and, man, I know how to handle that crisis. But after that, like, my job really in pastoral counseling is to say, okay, it looks like these are the things that you need, these are the people that can kind of help carry you and to help you fill those needs. Because, as a pastor, pastoral counseling is not about therapy and it's not about, you know, guiding that process in that way, in that therapeutic way. I think pastoral counseling really is the triage and helping people to get connected to the right resources so that they can have that and work that out.

29:53
And I'm not a savior Like not that any therapist is either but I think pastors often get into the trap that they I have to save this person or I have to heal this person, and that's actually not our job. And you know, god is the one who's the healer and God is the one who's doing that. But that person themselves they need to want to have to have that healing as well. And I just like when I, when I look at myself as a pastoral counselor, you know my role is really just to kind of help, to facilitate and then to make sure that they're going in, that they're getting the right resources and walking in that right direction, that path to go to get that, to that healing. But I'm not actually going to be doing any of that and I think that's like the big difference between a therapist and a pastoral counselor.

30:45 - Speaker 3
There isn't going to be that kind of therapeutic ongoing relationship yeah, I like how you said, it's like triage and then you kind of like making sure they're not bleeding and then you hand them off. Yeah, um, I think, for even for therapists, it's not just the tools they have, but they also just have a very different perspective and they can be, a lot more objective too, so I feel like that's helpful.

31:06 - Speaker 1
Yeah, so for you like, how did you start learning about like the love of god and god's heart and like more of like I don't want to say spiritual, but there is this like relational, ethereal presence yeah, you know, I think I I learned about that through my friendships and I have to say, even I have this one friend in college and she's still she's still my best friend now and she displayed an unconditional love that I think friend wise I don't know if I necessarily experienced that and that was pretty cool.

31:43
And that was pretty cool and it still continues to this day, which is pretty impressive, because now it's been over 25 years since we first met and I think it's through that and it's also through, I think, the healing that has happened with my family, especially with my mom. And I also think it's when I heard about it from the pulpit at a church and I remember the like when I moved to Boston. I remember sitting at this church and the pastor was preaching about God's love and I just started weeping because that was the first time that I felt like, oh my gosh, I felt like that message was for me, like I just felt like God was saying, actually, you know what, phyllis, I love you and I'm telling you this right now. It's through this person, but I'm telling you right now and I was, I remember just weeping and from then on, like just experiencing different relationships and friendships with people that just reiterated and really emphasize God's love and God's grace. And I have some really amazing friends here in Boston and that have just displayed that continuously. And we've had our ups and downs, but it was, I don't know.

32:58
It's just so unique and I don't know if I can ever find that again, because I think it was really unique and it's just a few set of people and I love walking life with them because they are constant reminders. Like when my dad died five years ago, three of them jumped on an airplane and flew all the way out to Seattle literally for 24 hours to be there for me and I was just floored by that because I never I didn't think friendship could be like that and that was just so moving to me. And I was just floored by that because I never I didn't think friendship could be like that and that was just so moving to me. And so I just feel like it's all these little things now that I've been able to experience God's love, and I have to say it's also through my kid. I'm not saying that everyone needs to be a parent to experience that, but, man, if there's a kid in your life that you can love and that they love you. There's something special about that. It doesn't have to be your own kid. This is why everyone should go and volunteer for their children's ministry and youth ministry, because, man, it just kind of opens your world in this way where, man, where this kid is just accepting you just exactly the way that you are, with your flaws and all, and then when they get older and they know that you're flawed, they still love you anyway and that's pretty amazing because that's God and that's God's love.

34:18
And I also think you know, if you don't have kids, go find a pet. I am 1000% convinced that dogs, especially if you're a cat person or whatever, like that's fine, but dogs especially, every time I open the door when I come home, my dog is waiting there for me and I'm just like, wow, why are you so happy to see me? And I'm so glad and it's just unconditional and you could, you know, and like we have a rescue dog and I don't know what happened in her life before, but you know she has a lot of fears and things like that, but she still loves people so much and it's kind of like, no matter what harm has come their way and no matter what kind of abuses, but they still love human beings, even though they're the perpetrators right of hurt. But they will still love them. And I just see that in my dog and I'm just like so amazed that they can be that loving. So, yeah, I just think God's love man, it's all around us.

35:20
We just have to look for it and we can see it, and I think that's how I've been able to experience it and I really think because of that, I understand so much better now. Oh yeah, I do have this relationship with God. It is not just a God who's way out there and I'm here, or a God who's authoritarian or scary or distant, but it's actually a God who's like right there with us. And I think about that a lot, especially with the kids that I work with, and the kids who question a lot like is God real? And I, if I dig a little deeper, I'm like, oh, you know what they haven't really experienced like the tangibleness of God, because they haven't really experienced the love of God through relationships and with people. And I hope I don't know. I hope that we could change that.

36:08 - Speaker 3
So what are you doing now and how does all those experiences kind of play out in you being a pastor?

36:13 - Speaker 1
Yeah, so I work as a pastor and I work a lot with children, youth and family right now in right outside of Boston and at a church right outside of Boston and at a church, and it's I think those are my motivations of why I want to work, especially with the children, youth and family, because I I realized, you know, I'm closer to 50 than the other end, you know, and I'm like man, I have I've been doing so much work to try to undo all of that and it got me thinking. If someone had come into my life when I was younger elementary, high school, even like a 20 year old Right and helped me and kind of like helped me to have a good foundation of who I am understanding, who I am understanding like of God and how God loves me and how God has created me, I feel like I would be in a really different place and I I think about that a lot with our kids and I'm just like that's what I want to do, is I really want to help kids to be able to be in that place already so that their flourishing can start earlier and that their flourishing can progress in the way that it was meant to progress, I think, for their lives, like we're supposed to leave things better. It's like my parents thank goodness that they moved at the time, that they moved and they struggled a lot for my flourishing and I am where I am because of that sacrifice and I'm just like, well, if I can kind of help that they're not deconstructing their entire lives at the age of 40, but sooner, then what world changing could happen. If these kids are doing that right, because they're already changing our world. Like Gen Z, gen Alpha, they're already like, they're just different and they're so unique and they're so amazing. But it's like we don't let them because we're just like, well, they're just kids, what do they know? But man, if you, just if we can empower them and we could give them the tools and just say, yes, like, reflect back, you are the image of God, you are loved and you are whole beings. Go and do exactly what God has called you to do. Like you're going to get amazing presidents, world leaders, innovation, like, like we're going to save the earth for real.

38:39
And I think I think that has been really my drive and my motivation and I just feel like somebody asked me like what would you be doing now if, like that was reflected back to you when you were younger and I just said I would have been president of the United States, and you know people laugh. But I'm like no, I'm serious, like I think God really created me to be someone who rocks the boat, but that has really gotten kind of pushed out of me, because you're not supposed to do that. As an Asian American, especially as an Asian American woman, shouldn't rock the boat. Keep your head down and keep going.

39:14
But I'm just like you know what I was created to rock the boat. So that's what I'm going to do. And if I can rock the boat for some of the kids that I work with and the kids that are in my life, then I just feel like I've done exactly what God has called me to do and the invitation that God has given to me, and so, yeah, so I hope to keep on doing that. That's what I'm doing right now and I hope that, yeah, I hope that we're going to see a lot of kids kind of in there flourishing and just kind of seeing exciting things happen because of that.

39:47 - Speaker 3
I totally agree with you. I think, in an odd way, gen Z and the new generation, because they value authenticity and honesty a lot, and I think that a lot of that has to do with, like our generation, of trying to like conforming and like being so like in the box that they're like throw away the box More and more, I'm realizing, as long as you are your authentic self and the way God made you, that's the call I used to think. A call is like oh, I got to do this and do this. It's like no, I got to be this person because in that situation, whatever situation I'm in, I need to be that person, obviously in a Christ-loving way, and that is what God's going to do and accomplish, not like necessarily doing. So. Yeah, I totally agree. How have you been dealing with the stigma of being a female pastor and what are your theological convictions around that role, with the opposition saying otherwise?

40:47 - Speaker 1
yeah, you know I, so the denomination that I'm in right now, or dean, uh well, passed a resolution in the 70s to ordain women and and it was not really argued upon because they were busy actually arguing about like divorce and like what the policy would be around that, and I I stumbled into this denomination and so for me, for a long time I just thought I felt a call for vocational ministry. I know it's weird to say that, but I really did Like when I was a little kid I was just like my job, my future job, is going to be to work for God, and I didn't really understand what that meant. Like other kids were like I'm going to be a doctor, I'm going to be like a trash truck driver or whatever, and I was just like I'm going to go work for God and I don't. I think I didn't really understand what that meant until I was obviously much older, but I never saw that around me. So I was like, well, that's out of the question. So I was like, well, maybe I'll go and be missionary, because it seems like they allow women to go and be missionaries. Right, you can do ministry in foreign lands, it's okay.

41:54
And that's just what I thought, and it wasn't until I was in my mid to late twenties that I first saw a woman preaching and I was like, wait, I could do this, like that could be me. I had no idea, and even then I was like, well, I don't know if that's actually what God's calling me, cause I think that was like a childhood thing. It was like it was kind of like nonsense, but I kept feeling that tug and when it came time, something opened up. I just was like I'm going to do this and I, you know, put myself out there. And then I just kind of was like people were affirming it left and right and just kind of like this makes a lot of sense. Like even my own husband was like this makes a lot of sense, this is, this was your path.

42:39
And so I did some digging in the Bible and our denomination also gave some resources about, you know, women in ministry and in leadership, and you know, in the very beginning of Genesis, where it talks about how, like God creates Eve, and then the translation is helper. And I learned and this is where I was like, oh, this knowledge is very handy. I learned that the word is not, that's not an accurate translation and the word is azer, right, and it's it's a partner. And and then in seminary I just learned I was like, oh, there's all these women who are helping Paul and doing, like, doing ministry. And I was like what, how come nobody ever talks about this? How come this isn't like prominent in the Bible, right? And there's all these other scriptures that lead people to say, oh, this is why women shouldn't be in ministry. And I've like poured through them Greek translation, right, like all of that, and I've just really come to the conclusion that you can believe that if you want. But I really think God created us as equals, as partners in ministry and because of that, women should be pastors, women should be leaders, women should be leading in ministry.

44:00
With that, and you choose to be complementarian, your job is still to advocate for women because they are also part of the image of God. We often think that the image of God is this individual thing that we each have been created, but that's actually a misinterpretation of scripture. Also it is we collectively have been made in the image of God, so the women have to be a part of that, because we all have been created in that image. So you can't have 50% and say, oh, we're reflecting the image of God, because that's not, that's only 50. You only got half. You need women. So, even if you're complimentary, I'm like your job is still. Your call is still to advocate for women and to help women discover their voice, have their voice and to honor them in that way.

44:51
I think a lot of times we think we have these attitudes about women, that, especially in the church, and if you look at the history like and I was looking into the Evangelical Covenant Church history, which is my denomination all the things that women were doing and I wrote a paper on that and I was just like why do we never tell these stories? These are what the women were. They were funding missionaries, they were sewing things and selling it so that they could get money to fund missionary doctors to go over overseas. They were raising money to renew the dorms for the seminary and they were doing all these things and I'm like they're actually doing the work. Also, it's just the men are the ones that are preaching and are saying the words, but it's the women who are doing all that work and I was like there's a place.

45:48
And so, whether you believe, whether you're complementarian or egalitarian, whatever it is that you might believe, we still have an obligation to uphold and honor and to advocate for women, regardless of what our core theological leaning and belief is. And you know it's hard because there are a lot of churches, even within our denomination, that they're like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we believe in, you know, women in ministry, but they don't reflect that in their action. And I'm like, well, yeah, we're not perfect, we're human beings and we kind of believe what we believe. But I just feel like you know we have room for that. But at the same time, what are you doing to kind of help?

46:30
And then I think about all the like little girls who are looking and who they see up there. And I'm just like you know what, if you keep thinking that, because God is not a man right, or a woman right, god doesn't have gender, but if you only say that and you always reference God in the he and you're only putting up pastors who are male, I just feel like that little girl who one day becomes a woman is going to be like is God, even for me? I mean, I'm hoping that there'll be other instances in her life where she will experience that, but you're not setting them up to see God in like in themselves, them up to see God in like in themselves, and I just feel like that is that's important and it's a part of us reflecting the image of God as God's people, and that we have to do that together. So I don't know if I answered your question.

47:22 - Speaker 3
No, you did. I mean there's a lot there to kind of unpack. Maybe I'll unpack a couple of things. One I totally agree with you, like when he created humanity like Adam, male and female. So secondly, the reason why we use the pronoun he is because of the relational aspect of father son and spirit. No, it's also just for the audience Like.

47:42
I don't know who's listening to this? And then, lastly, I'm coming around more and more Like I'm a staunch complementarian, but not in like the conventional sense, but more that like I really do believe God placed a responsibility on men and the reason why we have all our problems is just because men are not stepping up and being Christ-like. But as to the female pastoral thing, like when I read Scripture like Paul— well again, my interpretation isul's only problem was like women having authority over men. And so, if you can because I'm still like working that out, but if you could somehow work that out, um, yeah, I totally believe like we need to have sisters in ministry in the fullest capacity. Do you know what I mean?

48:25 - Speaker 1
um, maybe I think I know what you mean.

48:28
I don't think women pastors should ever try to be a male figurehead because that's not true to who they're going to be and the way that they lead is going to be really different from the way that men Although I do have to say, as you know, as a woman who's in leadership, I think there is an expectation that for us to lead in that way. There is an expectation that for us to lead in that way. But then there's a lot of criticism that comes because if a male leads in one way, it looks like this but if a female leads in that same way, then she's kind of looked down upon or she's kind of this like hard, like it just comes off like in a negative light, in a way that it doesn't for a man, comes off like in a negative light, in a way that it doesn't for a man. I think a woman leaning is has they have to leave the way that they were created to leave? Just like same thing with men. Like I don't.

49:23
I don't think that men should ever like emulate somebody else, because then that's not really authentic to them and that's going to end up causing them a lot of problems down the road because they were never being their true self. And if you're not your true self, it's really hard to be vulnerable. It's really hard to be authentic. It's really hard Like right, you just start building all these secrets and then that's kind of when you get into trouble.

49:43
I I think I think it's OK, I don't know, I don't know. I think like it's okay for women to like be lead pastors and stuff.

49:56
I just think our, I think we, I think we think pastors are the ultimate authority, but actually it's our, our board of elders or our leadership team, like that's actually who has well in the congregational churches, right, and I'm part of congregational denomination and so my boss is not my lead pastor, my boss is actually the congregation and in it is mixed men and women who are a part of that leadership team, and it's that collective leadership that I look to as kind of my authority. Yeah, I don't know, that's a it's a hard one, it's really tricky, because I just think we just men and women, lead in different ways and but you can't just only have one and not the other. I think there's a reason why there's a partnership, just like that's why it's important to have diversity of thinking, ethnicities and that as well. Like that is what makes up that full image and you can't only just operate with just one one part.

50:53 - Speaker 3
No, I, I totally agree with you. I think it needs to start with partnership. Uh, when I say equality, I don't mean like equal in roles, because even in men, like in a team, everyone can't be a quarterback. I don't think people understand, right, so there is distinctions and roles, but like we are equal in value and like yeah, so it starts with partnership. But there has to be a framework where I believe, like men need male role models and female need female role models, right, but also like men need to know how to like have like a feminine heart where we are like vulnerable and honest. But also women have to like have a masculine mind where you're like logical and you just can't feel everything.

51:34
So, and I see that in a family dynamic. You know, no one says like a single parent home is like the best thing, it's like that's the worst thing. So, yeah, and the church should be modeling the family structure. And I think we've kind of lost that because, well, my theory is like we've just kind of like started following, like what, how the world does it? Where there's only like one leader and you follow one leader, but like you see, in old testament times, when you have one king, things fall apart, it's not supposed to be that way so hey, what I've been lately, I think, thinking a lot about is leadership structure and how it should actually be flat and not hierarchical.

52:12 - Speaker 1
And yeah, and that there is a great benefit in that. And so when you have a team of people who are leading together, it's always going to be better than just one person. And I think a lot about the current team that I'm a part of, the pastoral team that I'm a part of, and so there's three men and two women and even though we have given the title to one person to be the lead pastor, there really is a flatness to the structure where we come together to make decisions, where we confer together, and yet we still have our distinct individual voices and, obviously, roles that we play right. And I have really enjoyed that and I have seen, I feel like our team and our church grow more because of that, instead of kind of this everyone looking to the one person to make decisions about things. And I have seen that model play out where people just kind of get stuck and if that person cannot keep moving forward, then the church just kind of stays at like a stalemate or they just kind of plateau and it's really hard to keep moving further. And I just think I've been really lucky to be a part of this staff where everyone kind of believes in that flat structure, and so we've been making a lot of strides in ways that I didn't even expect when I first came onto this staff in progressing forward, in allowing our church, I think, to grow and to be different and to be more experimental. I guess there's more of a willingness to try things, and if it fails we're just kind of like it's not a big deal, and then we just kind of try something different. And I think that's the innovation that needs to happen at church, because the way that we've been doing church for all these years, right, hundreds of years it's like it's not, that's not going to be church of the future, and so we need to, we need a pivot, we need to make a change.

54:14
But if we continue with that model of leadership where there's just one person that everyone kind of looks, looks to, then I think that's where things kind of start falling apart. And I keep seeing that because, like, if one person has like a moral failure, and then it's like, what do you do? How do you keep the machine going? Like, oftentimes it like dwindles, right, or the church like will close down or something, and then you see, you know that leader a couple of years down the road, reinvent themselves and whatever, and then repeat the cycle all over again. And I was like, well, how do we stop that? Vent themselves and whatever, and then repeat the cycle all over again. And I was like, well, how do we stop that?

54:51
I think we need to have flat leadership that has accountability to each other and that has that same like respect and authority to each other, rather than just having it in one, one person. I don't know. I feel like that would help us out so much more. And you know, the president has like a ton of people who are in their cabinet, right, not whether he listens to them or not, I don't know, but there's all these peoples and there's all these like checks and balances in place so that one person doesn't amass all this power and it becomes like a dictator, which I think happens a lot in churches, even though we don't call it that, but in other ways. That's just essentially what it becomes. You know what's?

55:28 - Speaker 3
interesting though, like the government structure we have, like people don't understand it's not a democracy, it's a republic, like we elect leaders, yeah, and the only power the president has is to veto. Yeah, that's his really only power. He really can't do anything else without.

55:46
Like the work of Congress and the Senate and stuff else without like the work of congress and the senate and stuff. So, um, one last thing is like, just to encourage you, I'm in the camp of like it's. I think it's because we're in like the 99.9 percentile of the end times and like the whole prophecy of joel of like sons and daughters prophesying, and I think that's why women are stepping up, because it's like we need them to. So I'm totally, you know, with you and I love what you're doing with, like, yeah, children and families, because at the end of the day, I think we've forgotten church was supposed to be a collective of families, not just this like machine. Yeah, okay, I have one last question. Yeah, um, what is that painting behind you?

56:26 - Speaker 1
oh, this is by um, my friend shin shin meng, and it is um, it's basically like the trinity, but it's called american han that's what it's titled and he is living I want to say he's living in scotland right now because his wife is doing a uh graduate program out there.

56:46
He is, I call him, like a modern icon painter, but he does like a lot of digital work and so, yeah, this is one of my favorite things that he's done, american Han. But it also feels like it's like God, jesus, like Holy Spirit, but it's also like the generations of you know that Korean term of Han like being like passed down and so so, yeah, it just spoke to me a lot, especially during COVID. It was a painting that was really meaningful for me. It was a hard time and I think I just leave it up there to remind me that we may have this Han, but God's grace and love is also there too, and so is what heals, you know, because han is just like that, stuffed in, unrequited, like it's like you're bearing it all on your own, but actually god is there to bear that with us. You can share that with him.

57:41 - Speaker 3
So, yeah, that's good that's a good way to end the podcast. Well, thanks for coming on yeah, thanks so much.

57:48 - Speaker 1
So much, Danny. I really appreciate it. Yeah, that's it for the podcast. Bye guys.

57:51 - Speaker 2
Bye. Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. Committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. The Faithly digital platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection, foster collaboration and promote growth within the church and ministry space. Remember to subscribe, rate and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you. Stay tuned for more uplifting tales from the front lines of ministry on the Faithly podcast. Stay bold, stay faithful and never underestimate the power of your own story.