God In The City - Adrian Tam

00:00 - Speaker 1 Hi everyone. My name's Adrian Tam, I'm a follower of Jesus and I have one wife and three kids. I'm also a pastor of a church here in Sydney, australia, and I get to also, alongside that, lead a great ministry called Faith Tech, which is all about bridging the gap between the Christian faith and the tech industry. 00:17 - Speaker 2 Welcome to Faithly Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life. Join us as we delve into their challenges, moments of encouragement and answered prayers. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. Learn more at faithlyco. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired as we unveil the heart of faith through stories from the front lines of ministry. On the Faithly Stories podcast. 00:58 - Speaker 3 Thank you so much, adrienne. I am just so happy to be having this conversation with you. I feel like we've been planning to have it for several months now, but I've got three kids, you've got three kids. I wear multiple hats and multiple ministries, and so do you, and on top of that we've got a 12, 13, 14, 15,. 01:16 we've got a 16-hour time difference right. It's 8 pm here in York City. It is noon in Sydney, so it really did take months for us to put it together, but I'm just so happy that we're chatting now. 01:30 - Speaker 1 So thank you, but I send greetings from the future, because we are Monday and you're Sunday at the moment, so we live ahead of your time. 01:37 - Speaker 3 You know, I always knew that time didn't mean to God what it meant to us, and so this is really just perfect, it's very true. 01:46 So to God what it meant to us, and so this is really just perfect. So, adrian, you've had this incredible journey where you started in the corporate world, you've worked in nonprofits, you've worked in faith tech companies, you've planted churches, you've been on staff at churches and you have these great ministries, and it's easy for me to see how God's woven all that together to bring you to this place, that it feels like you're really, really positioned to catalyze something where you are in Sydney and in your broader region. 02:11 But, I'd love to go on that journey a little bit with you. Can you talk about that time when you were at Deloitte? So not only were you in corporate, you were at a firm. That was like if you were an accountant or if you're a consulting person. That's like the pinnacle right. That's like the dream job to work at Deloitte. Can you talk about what made you decide to go from that to full-time? 02:32 - Speaker 1 ministry? Great question, and I still ask myself that question sometimes. You know, at different moments I grew up in a very academic environment kind of like, similar to a lot of, you know, migrant kids in Western countries. Really, my dad is from Hong Kong originally, was the first in his family to leave the country you know, came to Australia in the late 70s and kind of that classic story of you know, came with the clothes on his back and a small suitcase and just built a legacy, you know, from the ground up, and so I think that kind of work ethic you know, perform, succeed, provide that was just always, you know, part of my family script growing up. 03:07 And so I grew up in the church, grew up, you know, knowing God and loving Jesus. But the idea of having a life that you know was not, you know, for example, stable or lucrative, was just not at all part of my thinking. It was, yeah, go to church but pursue a great career so you can provide and build on the foundations that my parents have blessed for me. But probably during my late high school years I had some great youth leaders, mentors and also my older brother who started to see something of, I guess you could say a call of God in my life towards vocational ministry. And look, I very much resisted that at first and I just thought why would I do that? I can do something much better with my life make more money, have more respect. 03:48 I think my view at the time, seeing the church leaders at the churches that I grew up in, was no, I don't want to be that person. I don't want to be everyone's boss and be the punching bag of everyone in the church and all that kind of thing. But over the years, I think that desire to serve God in that particular way just continued to grow and grow as I got involved in different types of ministry and church life, and so it became really clear probably two years before I actually made that final decision. I already knew that that's what I needed to do, and so when it actually came time to pull the plug and hand in my resignation at Deloitte, it actually wasn't a hard decision, but it took quite a few years to get there for sure. 04:29 - Speaker 3 Wow, I can't believe. Your brother saw that in you. He called it right, and we hear that so often from folks in pastoral ministry is that someone sees the call in them, they sense the call but they resist and it takes a while for them to begin their ministry journey. So for you, did you leave your job then search for your role in ministry, or did you leave your job knowing what you were going to do next? 04:54 - Speaker 1 Yeah, it was definitely the latter, but the way that it played out was so I finished my, so I did a double degree at university commerce and law and then I've got a job at Deloitte straight out of university, also got married that first year out of university as well or college, you know, as you guys call it in the states. But by that time I already knew, like I said, that I wanted to be in ministry, and so it was actually very reluctantly worked at Deloitte, which sounds weird because, like you said, for a lot of people that is the pinnacle, that's the dream. But for me it was just like this is not where I want to be long term. But it was almost out of a sense of like obedience, because I think what God was really impressing on my heart at the time was that I needed some level of, you know, exposure or experience in the corporate world before I was ready actually for ministry, and he needed to kind of test my character in different ways. And so, yeah, those kind of close to two years that I spent at Deloitte no shade on Deloitte, you know, and it wasn't anyone's fault other than I just knew that that's not where I needed to be long term, but actually I haven't shared this in many years now, but I actually remember during those two years at Deloitte I was really wrestling with God. 05:57 I'm like what am I doing here? I'm not using my gifts, I something else. And uh, I felt like actually god posed a question to me and and the question went something like this I think god was saying to me he said, adrian, if, if I ask you to do this, like to stay at deloitte and work in corporate tax for the rest of your life, would you be content? And my answer was, of course, not, like no way. And the moment I answered the question that way, I knew that that was actually the wrong answer, because obviously which I now know like obedience is success, like that is the pinnacle of success as far as the christian life is concerned. 06:32 And so the important phrase was if god asked me to do that, would I do it? And? And the answer was no. And so I actually need to like surrender that dream and that sense of calling towards ministry. I had to actually lay that down again, and I think it was actually not long after I actually finally resubmitted myself to God's will. After that happened, not long after, out of the blue, I was offered this role in ministry. That was just so out of the blue that it was very clearly you know God's leading and so that's kind of the journey. 07:02 - Speaker 3 Wow, that's amazing and so powerful. So, that first job that the Lord delivered to you, how did it feel and did you feel like you were ready for? 07:11 - Speaker 1 it yeah, I think yeah, yes and no. 07:13 - Speaker 3 What was it? What was that first ministry job? 07:16 - Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. 07:17 - Speaker 3 How did it feel stepping into it? 07:19 - Speaker 1 Look, in many ways it was a dream come true because it was what I'd been wanting, you know, for so long. It was a. So I was employed as a youth and young adults pastor full time and it was. It was amazing because you know the senior minister and I've been in contact with him recently. His name's Larry Galbraith. 07:37 He's one of the heroes of the faith and I just owe so much, you know, to him because he just gave me the best possible start, you know, to ministry and pastoral leadership. He was just empowering, releasing, you know, led brilliantly, just led this uncomplicated church that was just full of life, generosity and just gave me I think he gave me more rope than he should have, you know, but just that's the way that he leads, just the way that you know, just incredibly trusting and empowering. And, yeah, in some ways I felt really ready, but in other ways I felt in, you know, in a funny way, undeserving of how much authority you know I was given and it was. We had a blast, you know. I was there for three and a half years and, like I said, just had a lot of fun, learned a lot, but Larry just really backed me and covered me and yeah, it was an awesome way to begin my journey in ministry. 08:26 - Speaker 3 Yeah, that's amazing. Like so often, that's not the story so often people are working, whether it's in the church or in the corporate world, for someone who may not be prepared to lead them in that season of their career. So to begin your ministry journey in that way, I think is really awesome. Now, not long after that, you planted a church, right. 08:46 - Speaker 1 Yes, yeah, that's right. 08:47 - Speaker 3 How you went from starting your very first job in ministry as a youth and young adult leader to then planting a church. 08:53 - Speaker 1 Yeah, it's a great, great question. I think one of the things that I've learned or realized quite recently is just how God will often I mean God always like you said at the beginning, the way that we see time is not how God sees time, and he sees the end from the beginning and the beginning from the end, and so often there'll be little kind of like breadcrumbs or clues in your story right from the beginning that you don't understand what it's about until much later on. And so that was the case for me and actually for me and my wife, like in the early days of our relationship. You know I was, you know, 18, it was you know 19 or whatever it was. We actually had a number of people uh, prophesy over us and kind of share that you know they saw an image of or a picture of whatever it was of you guys planting a church in a suburb called chatswood, so it's, you know, in the north shore of sydney, you know, very affluent area, very multicultural, that kind of thing, and it was like three separate parties who all said the exact same thing. And so we thought, okay, there's something to this. There's no immediate next step for us. You know we're teenagers not married or that kind of thing. But we remember that, we kind of like tucked that away in our hearts. 09:55 And then, obviously, I got married, and then I got this role as a youth and young adults pastor and I didn't have an exit strategy. I wasn't like, okay, this is going to be the stepping stone to the next thing, because, loving what we were doing and all that kind of thing, but probably after two, three years, like that, those words just started to resurface in our minds. And then at the same time, I started getting offered all these different roles in different churches and I was like, what's going on here? Something seems to be stirring. And then in that whole process, you know, god really made it clear that actually the time is now, like those things that I spoke to you all those years ago, now's the time to actually step into it. And so obviously I sat down with Larry, our senior minister, and I said, hey, I think, you know, god's beginning to lead us in that direction. And so we went on that journey together. 10:37 And then, long story short, this other church that we had some connection to, they approached me, you know, one day and they said, hey, we're thinking of planting a church out of our existing church, out of their church, their existing church and the. The location that we're thinking of was was chatswood, the very specific place that god had spoken to us about many years ago, and they said hey, you know, we love you and your wife to come on board with us for a year, you know, get to know our church, and then and'll send you out, you know, to plant. And so, again, it was just one of those God aligning right people, right time, right place, and that's how it all kind of unfolded. 11:13 - Speaker 3 Help me to like understand what that moment was like for you. You know this was prophesied over you and your wife by multiple people, and then, years later, it comes to pass. This to me is a fall down on your face moment. What was that like? For you and your wife. 11:30 - Speaker 1 Yeah, it is taking me back now a little bit, you know, and I'm glad you're asking these questions because it is so important to not forget when God does those kinds of things. It is so important to not forget when God does those kinds of things. I think, again, what I've learned is that there is often a time lag between the I guess you'd call it the anointing and the appointing right, the moment when actually you hear or you feel God speaking something of your destiny or your calling or your future, whatever you have, or whatever you call it. And I think in our limited thinking we tend to think okay, that means it's now Like okay, tomorrow I'm going to see that coming to pass and it's going to be the complete fulfillment of all of that. But there's often a time, like saying, with David being the most obvious example, like he was anointed with the authority and with that future, but actually it was many years before he stepped into that, same with people like Joseph and whatnot. He was a dreamer, he actually had those gifts in him from a very young age, but there was so much character that needed to be tested before he could step into that, and so I think it was the same, in a sense, that it was obviously very surreal, you know when, when, because actually, just to rewind a little bit, what happened was, you know, I was two, two and a bit years into my role as a youth and young adults pastor and again, there was no desire. 12:40 I wasn't looking for the next thing or anything like that, but just out of nowhere started being approached and offered all these different jobs, and they were all kind of like yeah, they sound kind of good and there's elements that I like about all of them, but none of them just had that kind of touch of God on it. We just know this is the thing. And then, as I kind of turned down all those different opportunities, then, when this last thing came, came, you know, across my table, so to speak. It was just so clear that it was almost like all the spotlights were shining on this one thing, and it was, yeah, it was surreal because it was god's reminder to us that. 13:14 Do you remember what I said to you all those years ago? That was real and I haven't forgotten't forgotten about it, hearing you about it, I've been preparing you for it, and so it was. Yeah, it was a no brainer. It was like, of course, like we have to step in and obviously we had to say goodbye, and you know that was sad and difficult in many ways, but also really beautiful. You want it to be hard to leave. You know a context right, and that's what it was for us. Wow, and that's what it was for us. 13:35 - Speaker 3 Wow, thank you for sharing that. So I'd love to ask you some questions about Faith Tech. So you've been there for about a year and a half now. It's this global community of people who are in tech who are following Christ. Now I think when folks first hear about Faith Tech, they have questions right, like are we talking about people who work at Google, who happen to be followers, or are these people who want to work in tech? 14:00 - Speaker 1 Yeah, faith Tech. I guess one of our taglines is we are a global tech community for Christ, and the beautiful thing about it is that obviously, these days, you know, tech is everything and everywhere, and so in some ways, the boundaries of who we are trying to connect with essentially don't exist. It's almost like an opt-in situation. If you feel like this is your community, if you have some level of affinity or interest in technology, we can be the place for you, and that's very much. I mean. My own story is the same. I mean I work for FaithTech but I have no formal background in technology at all. I couldn't write a line of code to save my life. I don't know if I'm supposed to admit that that makes two of us yeah right, but I mean, thankfully these days you've got plenty of great tools that can do that for you as well. But I don't have any background in tech, you know, formally. But what I do have is I've always been like a futurist. I don't know if you've ever done strengths and all that kind of thing. 14:51 So I feel an affinity with tech community and I can feel a part of it, and so, yeah, I mean, if you want to get into specifics, like, let's say, with the FaceTech Australia community, you've got, yeah, certainly people who are working in Google, meta, all that kind of thing, people who are doing, who are entrepreneurs or kind of venturing into tech, either as a side thing or they've done a complete shift. And then you've also got people who are working for large corporates, who are in a tech department or tech division, and then everything in between. It's a mixed bag, but I think the common ground is we love Jesus and we love technology, and we want those two worlds to not be like oil and water or even conflicting with one another, which often that's how they're pitted Like. These two things cannot coexist or pick one, but the people that we tend to connect with is no, we, we we have a passion for, for both. And how can we integrate the two? There must be a way, and that's kind of why why FaceTech exists. 15:56 - Speaker 3 Wow, that's, that's really awesome. 15:58 So you've also spent a couple years at um redeemer city to city australia now redeemer city to city I think most people know grew out of the redeemer churches, grew out of tim keller's ministry here in new york, so it's a ministry that, being based in new york, that I'm really familiar with. I've spent a lot of time with the amazing leaders there. Tell me a little bit about your time there. You've been the assistant director of church planting. What has that been like for you, especially as someone who has been a church planter? 16:27 - Speaker 1 Yeah, well, I was going to start there because my connection with City to City first began as a planter. So, like I said, my wife and I we planted a church here in Sydney and we actually spent a bit of time in New York before we planted. So we did a kind of four-week international church planters intensive at the Redeemer offices where we were trained as planters, and honestly, that was one of the most transformative experiences of my life being in a cohort with, I think, maybe 35 church planters from around the world, all in really different contexts but united by a shared, you know, love. For obviously I love Tim Keller, but a shared love. How do we like, contextualize the gospel into our cities? 17:06 And so, yeah, it was an amazing time and so I was a beneficiary of the ministry of City to City. And then, yeah, fast forward a couple of years later, then City to City, yes, set up operations in Australia, and then a role you know became available to, to actually be a part of the church planting team, and I thought, hey, what a great, you know full circle moment in some ways to be a beneficiary first of the great work that city to city does, but then now able to help other uh planters as well. So, yeah, I've been doing that for the last couple of years and it's it's been a lot of fun's awesome. 17:37 - Speaker 3 So you spent some time in New York and you're part of this really global network for church planting. Has that given you some insight into how church planting and the church in general might be a little different in Sydney than in other cities around the world? 17:53 - Speaker 1 Yeah, for sure. This is something I quote often and I've heard it third hand, so I hope it's not a misquote. But some of your listeners might be familiar with a guy called Ed Stetzer. So he's a very well-known missiologist and apparently some years ago I think quite a few years ago now apparently he came to Sydney one time and his comment or his observation was he said that the church in Sydney is the most divided out of anywhere he's seen in the world, which is not a title that you want to have. So this is Sydney specifically. I know you asked about Australia, but I'll talk just about Sydney first. 18:29 Sydney is where I've born and raised. I've been in the church my whole life and when I heard that it broke my heart because my experience of that has been exactly true. That's exactly what I've experienced. The church in Sydney is extremely well-resourced. We have some of the greatest, I would say, exports in the global church have come out of Sydney. Where you land in terms of denomination or whatever, you can probably find a hero in your stream of Christianity that originates in Sydney in some form, and so we're extremely blessed in terms of resource and all that kind of thing. Certainly, you know, per capita and given the size of the population that we are. But the unfortunate side of that is that there has been a lot of infighting. I think there's, you know, because there's like almost you know giants in so many different streams. It's like, well, if you're with us then you can't be with those people, and if you believe this, then you can't be with those people, and if you believe this, then you can't associate with these people over here. And so there has been a lot of that and I think that makes Sydney unique, not in a good way. 19:28 But what I would say is and I was actually chatting to someone recently about this who's from the States but he's done a lot of ministry in Australia he observed this as well and I said, I think that's spot on what he observed was, I think, in the last probably 10, 15, was I think in the last probably 10-15 years. That is changing and I think I think Tim Keller actually wrote a lot about this in terms of what he saw in New York and in terms of like seeing that tipping point of evangelism and real kind of uh, a shift happening in the, in the spiritual landscape. A lot of that actually uh can be traced to when the church becomes more united. You know when, when actually the body starts to operate properly in a city? That's to when the church becomes more united. You know when, when actually the body starts to operate properly in a city? That's when then the church as a whole becomes more effective. 20:05 And I think sydney is that is now starting to go on that similar journey where actually, where there once was tribalism and silos and infighting, I think that is beginning to shift. Some of that is generational as well, but I think there are some really positive signs that that is starting to evolve. So I would answer that question that way. But the other thing I would say as well is that I think, because of globalization and just rapidly accelerating secularism, I would say that in some ways Australia is very similar to a lot of other Western nations as well, where it's like you probably have more in common between the major cities of different countries than you would a city in Australia compared to a regional town in Australia, if you know what I mean. So I think, say, new York and Sydney will be a lot similar to, lots more similar compared to Sydney and I don't know a place called Wagga Wagga which you probably would have never heard of, but I think it's all becoming very similar. 20:58 - Speaker 3 I would say Well, I'm getting a geography lesson on Australia tonight. I've heard about Chadworth, I've heard about Sydney. I've now heard about Wagga. Wagga, so thank you. 21:05 - Speaker 1 Adrian. 21:06 - Speaker 3 You know divisiveness and conflict in the church. That's no surprise to any of us this side of heaven. 21:12 But, it's so encouraging to hear that there's been a tipping point and that you're in a season where that seems to be shifting, and what a beautiful season for you to be stepping back into ministry. So you've been in ministry. You haven't never stepped out of ministry since you stepped into it, but you've done these different things right, Like being at City to City, being at Faith Tech. You're about to announce at the time of recording, you're about to announce a new role in ministry, so maybe can you talk about to announce at the time of recording you're about to announce a new role in ministry, so maybe can you talk about that. 21:42 - Speaker 1 Yeah for sure, yeah, yeah, Like I said earlier, I think God always takes a long view, you know, when he works in your life and I think, yeah, I think from a very young age, you know, I've known that I've, you know, been called to pastor or ministry and to lead a church. But over the last few years I've kind of done more adjacent things, like you said, still in ministry, but not so much in the church space. But, yeah, probably about two years ago, you know, god started to, you know, elbow me in the ribs again, if you like, and say, hey, actually don't forget about, you know, that call to lead or to plant a church, and it's probably about six months prior to when we're speaking now. Basically, uh, yeah, god reminded me specifically of that call to the city, you know, to the city of sydney and to the real kind of downtown urban core of sydney is something that I've always really loved and, it says, has had a really special place in my heart. 22:31 And so I just, you know, both my wife and I started to discern that maybe god was calling us to plant a church in the city, right in the heart of, right in the heart of Sydney City, and then, almost at exactly the same time which now we know was not a coincidence one of my mentors and kind of key contacts in Sydney she spoke to me and she said, hey, like her pastor, so she goes to a church right in the middle of Sydney and her pastors were actually wanting to transition out for the last like 18 months but just couldn't find the right people to hand the church to. And so she said to me I wonder whether you and you know you and your wife Jess are supposed to be the ones to to take that on. So it was just a short providential set of circumstances and it's a much longer story. You know that I can't get into now, but it was just very clear that actually God was calling us back into the city and and not to a church from scratch, but actually to take on an existing church which has had an amazing, you know, 25 years of history but is now at a bit of a kind of hinge moment where looking to new leadership to take it to, you know, to a new place. So we're really excited. It's a great opportunity Again, like I said, a church with really great bones and has had done amazing work in Sydney in the past, a real pioneering church, you know, with a great kind of creative spirit, just done lots of great things in the marketplace and all that kind of thing, but is now kind of ready for that new chapter. 23:47 So yeah, we're excited and I'm looking forward to kind of having that dual you know hat which you would know very well, you know pastor and certainly pastor first, you know, leading and loving a local congregation here in the city of Sydney, but also still doing the faith tech stuff and having that kind of you know marketplace. I guess you could call it the kind of dual calling which I've been really encouraged to see. More and more people share that similar passion as well. 24:12 - Speaker 3 Pioneering church. That is absolutely perfect for you, Adrian. You have the heart of a technologist, you have the heart of an innovator, so this seems just perfect for you. Now I've talked to enough church leaders and enough church planters to know that, of course, there are challenges with starting a brand new church from scratch, but there are equally challenges to stepping into something that's already been and carrying that mantle forward. So can you talk a little bit about just your sense of it going into this new season, things that you're excited about, things that maybe you feel like will be a challenge? 24:46 - Speaker 1 Yeah for sure, that's a really great way to put it. I think, um, yeah, it's, you've got challenges either way, right, like you said. I think, um, and you know, having planted a church before and being, having been part of lots of church plans, I think, um, you know it takes a certain type of leader, a certain type of team to to really thrive in a church plan context. You know to be really comfortable with a lot of ambiguity. You know, have that ability to kind of, uh, you know, pull people together, class vision, all that kind of thing, and, and obviously you know what you don't have is is resource. You know, credibility buildings, all that kind of thing can be a real challenge. And then I think, with stepping to an existing church, you know you might have some of those resources. Maybe there's a bit of cash in the bank, you've got an existing team, all that kind of thing, uh. But then there's history, you know, and there could be, uh, you know, landmines that you've got to navigate and you've got to steer an existing thing rather than getting something new up and running. And so I think, yeah, there's lots. I mean, there's so many different variables, right, like, I think it depends on the type of leader who's leading and then the type of, you know, leadership team that they're inheriting and all that kind of thing that they're inheriting and all that kind of thing. 25:54 But I think one of the big things you know for myself and my wife, as we kind of explored this opportunity, whether this was the right fit, was I know that there's something of a pioneer, innovator, that kind of God has called me to be, and so I had to be really upfront with the church and with the board about that. I said, look, this is who I am and the way that I would love to lead this church is, yes, we way that I would love to lead this church is, yes, we want to honor the past and really, you know, preserve a lot of those kind of key values and DNA which I really love about the church. But we want to bring the church into a whole new era and you know that could mean you know that a lot of things actually end up changing, maybe not all at once, because I think, as a pastor as well, there's wisdom required in how do we graciously lead people through change and through the grieving that often has to take place, especially with people that have been a part of the church in many years gone by, that have helped so into the church as it currently is, it can be very unkind, you know, to just go, hey, that's all dead. Now we're now doing a new thing. You need to pastor people through it and care for them through that process. 26:52 But nevertheless, you, you know for the church and actually these are our intentions we want to move the church forward, we want to break new ground, we want to actually push boundaries. I think when we realized that the church was actually not just open to that, but actually really hungry for that and waiting for that, that's when my wife and I knew actually, yeah, this is a green light we can lead here in the way that we feel is honoring to God's call on our life and also honoring to the church and the people there. Yeah, so it's a dance definitely a bit of a dance a lot of discernment required. 27:23 - Speaker 3 So when do you officially start? 27:25 - Speaker 1 Yeah, so at the time of recording, well, it's Monday my time, so this, actually this coming Sunday, it's when it will be fully and publicly announced to the church and to everyone, and then I'll be officially my wife and I officially commissioned as the new senior pastors on the 23rd of March, and so that's what we'll kind of officially step into that role. Obviously, I'm kind of on team and on staff already, so starting to do some of the kind of background work and getting to know people and all that kind of thing. But 23rd of March is the kind of go live, go live. 27:52 - Speaker 3 Wow, that's so exciting. So I'm on the team of elders of my local church in downtown New York City and we brought on a new lead pastor in the fall of last year. 28:02 - Speaker 1 So just a few months ago. 28:03 - Speaker 3 So what you're describing from your side I've experienced from like the church side, like welcoming a new lead pastor and being excited and full of anticipation for a new chapter, and hearing you talk about it from your perspective is you know, it's just what you said I think is exactly right. I think this church is going to be so blessed to have you and your wife step into this new season and I'm just so excited for you. I can't wait to follow you and your journey and to follow Pioneering Church. It sounds like really, really exciting things are ahead God's doing a new thing in Sydney and in your life and to follow pioneering church. 28:39 - Speaker 1 it sounds like really, really exciting things are ahead. God's doing a new thing in Sydney and in your life and in your church. No, it's very true, and thanks for saying all that as well. And I'm really happy to hear that you guys founded a pastor, because I think last time we spoke you said there was an ad out and you guys were looking for someone to step into that role. So that's exciting. 28:52 - Speaker 3 So we were without a lead pastor at our church for two years. Wow, and I mean the Lord had something in it for all of us. We had to wait for the right person, but for those of us who were in leadership at the church, we all stepped up and more fully into our ministry callings than we had previously. In know in his timing all things. The Lord wastes nothing. You know, even in the times of waiting, we can look back and see like, oh, like that's what he had for us. 29:22 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I can testify to that as well. Certainly, when I was growing up, I grew up in a kind of Chinese church and probably similar in America where you know Chinese churches. Often it's the older kind of demographic that they would have, say, cantonese or a Mandarin service, and then their kids would be part of the English ministry. As I often grew up in these smaller kind of English congregations, we never had a paid full-time minister growing up, and although there was challenges associated with that, like you said, it was just this kind of all-in like everyone's pitching in. It's the body of Christ in action. And so I really saw, and then and then more recently, one of the churches I was a part of, um, our pastors. They had always had this kind of sense from god that they were going to be in the us and and it actually won the green card lottery one year. And part of that process is when you win that green card lottery you've actually got to like exit the country really quickly and then move in and all that kind of thing. So same with us. 30:14 Our church had no pastors for not quite as long as you guys, but for a long enough period, and it also coincided with one of the big lockdowns during the pandemic as well, and so in some ways it was almost like we had all the odds stacked against us, but it was actually one of the strongest and most beautiful seasons for us as a church, because it just activated people in a way that would have never happened had the past remained or had we not been in lockdown. So I don't know, hopefully that encourages someone today as they're listening to this like maybe your church is not as resourced as you would like or you know there's a gap or a vacancy, but actually that's a golden opportunity that God has given to perhaps you or people around you to go. Hey, I wonder what's in me, what are the gifts, what are the latent gifts that God's put in me that actually now is the time to actually dust it off and step into it. 31:04 - Speaker 3 Wow, that's a beautiful encouragement, thank you. Can we leave it with one last question? One last question. Born and raised in Sydney, it's the mission field for you and for your wife. But if you could be in any other city, which city would it be? 31:16 - Speaker 1 you're asking this because you know the answer is that right I think, I think, I hope I know the answer yeah, yeah, because we've spoken a bit about this. 31:23 so it's your city, new york. So, um, we, we have yeah, we've just had this weird, you know, tied to new york where, um, when we were engaged, so we had some friends, us as we were here in Sydney and they were actually on their way to New York to plant a church in New York, and when we were engaged, they sat down with us and said, hey, would you guys consider coming along with us? And we were so thrilled by the opportunity to do that we actually hanged our honeymoon plan so that we would end up in New York for our honeymoon and almost way and almost double up as like a scouting trip and we love New York, but it just didn't feel like we were supposed to move there at that point in time. 32:00 But then, you know, over the next couple of years we kept ending up in New York. Like I said, we spent weeks there doing the city-to-city intensive and then we went there with my family and we've just like my cousin lives in New York We've just had this connection with New York. I would love to be back and, who knows, maybe one day it will happen. I don't know, but it's an easy answer to your question it's New York for sure. 32:22 - Speaker 3 Awesome, awesome. Well, maybe I'll be interviewing you in the next season of your ministry. Live here in New York City. 32:28 - Speaker 1 Who knows, who knows? Yeah, watch this space. 32:31 - Speaker 2 Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. The Faithly digital platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection, foster collaboration and promote growth within the church and ministry space. Remember to subscribe, rate and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you. Stay tuned for more uplifting tales from the front lines of ministry on the Faithly Podcast. Stay bold, stay faithful and never underestimate the power of your own story.