I Was Angry at God - Karl Chan

00:01 - Speaker 1 I was angry. I was angry at God, partially because, like, why, why did this need to happen and how could it have happened? And his parents got up. You know amazing believers as well. They said you know he fought the good fight, he finished his race, he did on earth all that God had wanted and intended him to do. You know, I grew up in the church. I heard that that just felt like a cop-out. That felt like really Hi, my name is Carl Chan and I work at the Bowery Mission, helping lead all of our external engagement. We recognize that we cannot make a difference in this city together, and so I love building connections with people, with organizations, with communities, to drive this change. I'm excited to be able to share with you my Faithly story. 00:48 - Speaker 2 Welcome to Faithly Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life. Join us as we delve into their challenges, moments of encouragement and answered prayers. The Faithly we delve into their challenges, moments of encouragement and answered prayers. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. Learn more at faithlyco. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired as we unveil the heart of faith through stories from the front lines of ministry. On the Faithly Stories podcast. 01:30 - Speaker 3 My first question is where did you grow up? 01:33 - Speaker 1 So where did I grow up? I spent time in Malaysia and Australia. So I and this is foundational to me because I am a middle child born in Malaysia, but I have an elder sister and a younger brother born in Australia. So you know, it's fascinating to live in these two worlds and recognize that we don't choose many things in life from the same family. We don't even choose where we're born, but somehow that shapes how the world sees us but doesn't define us right. I think this is wrapped into my story of we don't get to choose where we're born, what time or place in history we're born into, what family we're born into, and so a lot of things that we have. We need to recognize that they are gifts, blessings, and we need to figure out how do we steward that in a way that honors God, rather than be complacent and just believe that we had deserved all these things that we have. 02:41 - Speaker 3 What did your parents do that we have? What did your? 02:42 - Speaker 1 parents do. My parents were bivocational. They were in ministry, but they also worked senior corporate roles, executive roles, all throughout. They are pastors now. They planted a church in Australia. They have always been involved in ministry. 03:05 - Speaker 3 I guess the reason why I'm asking is it's unusual that the middle child would be born in a different state, I mean in a different country than the first and the third. So I'm just curious as to what made them travel back and forth. 03:18 - Speaker 1 There was a lot of back and forth, I think. So my dad studied in the UK, my mom studied in Australia. They got married in Australia, but I think work opportunities, life, family, a myriad of things. I think they were trying to see what it would look like to live in Australia full time, but there was a financial crisis in 88 as well, and so that almost solidified that fact. But you know, I definitely feel and now being in New York City drawn into these three different worlds and these three different cultures. Right, they don't define us, but they shape us, and we bring all that and more to conversations. 04:01 - Speaker 3 I totally agree with you. With the whole you don't realize how much of your life is externally influenced. So, like COVID was a big thing that I realized that. Oh, like, if God wants you to move, he'll make you move based on your external circumstances. And it's more about, like, how you adjust to those exogenous events. 04:30 - Speaker 1 Yeah, that kind of like God, you know, directs your steps. So true, so true. 04:32 - Speaker 3 So that was all the setup, because I'm fascinated by what you said. You are an eighth generation Christian. I don't even know what that means, because a lot of the people I know they're usually third generation. So do you know the history of your family's faith? I? 04:48 - Speaker 1 know, I know part of it, and that's on my dad's side. On my mom's side, she was the first to ever, um, you know, find christ, you know, went to a christian school in malaysia and, um, yeah, it was. It was interesting growing up because I think, like any child, going to church was a chore. Right, you didn't want to. I mean, the stories are probably a little bit true, like you can pick out the pastor's kids because they present well on the outside, but probably stirring up trouble on the the backside as well. So, uh, I remember, you know, growing up as a kid, recognizing, right, all right, church was a part of our rhythm. We always did it as a family, no matter what. I knew I could probably only lie to get myself out of two a year, right, I would be sick, and you know how could I? How could I stay at home? So to me, that, to me, that was part of that heritage of the faith. It was like there's no way of getting out of church services, but what my dad used to tell me and my grandparents used to tell me as well. 05:57 So eight generations ago, great, great, great, however many great grandfather was fighting with his brother in China and was thrown into jail, and it was in jail that he met Christ through a missionary, and from that point on, he decided to leave and went to Malaysia to sell Bibles. Yeah, to leave, uh, and went to malaysia to sell bibles. Yeah, that I mean. Yeah, it's just intriguing to think as well. And, like you said, when god wants you to move, you move. In that same way. I don't think anybody woke up thinking you know what? I'm gonna leave my hometown and go somewhere else and do this, uh, to help spread the gospel. 06:49 - Speaker 3 Wait. So he went to Malaysia and then he met his wife and then that's when the generations of faith happened. And also, is there documentation of your family? Because I know for me we have this historical record written in Chinese of all of our generations, and I can't read Chinese so I have no idea what it means. Like my dad would say like oh, this is like one page of our family history. So in the future I plan to kind of like decode it. 07:14 But I'm just curious as to you, because I'm just so fascinated, because for me, um, I'm like second gen, um christian, like my parents were the first to believe and you're lucky that you got two, because I was definitely sick once and then, like, my mom dragged me to church and I was just like sleeping in the back room that's how dedicated she was and I was like this is not yeah yeah so for you. Yeah, I'm just fascinated with your. 07:40 - Speaker 1 The longevity of your history, yeah and and I think you know as a family that there are some records there is, you know, every family has that resident historian. But it was also this balance of right. We we saw some of the great harms of colonialization to different countries and on the same ships. You know, you had the colonizers trying to oppress people and the missionaries get off as well, and so it was this tension of if that didn't happen, would that have been a part of the story? But how many lives were also really damaged, hurt, ruined because of it, of history has always fascinated me and there are some records. They they don't sit with, uh with with me personally, but there is, there is an old auntie there digging through treasure troves of information trying to make sure that it isn't lost and that these stories can be told and so the the path I'm trying to get toward that is, you have this long history and you felt this overwhelming, I guess, maybe a burden or just expectation you know from your family, like because I understand expectation. 08:50 - Speaker 3 I was the first born in the United States that's a male, yeah, so I was the first um US citizen and like I was just I don't know like expected to like succeed more than my family's, but like I didn't want to go to college at first and like like my parents throw a hissy fit, like how dare you and I just they didn't say these things, but I just felt the expectations of not just my parents but like the generations that it took to come to America and I felt like I'm squandering it and I'm like ruining the family name and I just couldn't deal with that. You know. So like I did not deal with it the best way possible. But for you, like I'm just curious as to like how did that shape you and your faith? And then, how did um you wrestle with that to make you who you are today and like have a thriving faith? 09:42 - Speaker 1 yeah. So I think that's you know, it's. It's so much more complex, right, you know, here I am, you know, decades later, uh, really more assured in what I believe. But it it wasn't that growing up as well, right, I think, when you grow up in the church, you're around people who have radical testimonies of how, you know, they saw god show up at the moment where they were passed out, teetering between life and death on some club floor after almost overdosing. You're like, I didn't get to experience that, and so, you know, on the flip side, you know, whatever I did, um, and I did lots wrong I would always rationalize but at least I'm not as bad as so-and-so or I didn't do that right. So people may be partying, doing substances, all on that side, I'm definitely deep involved in that, but I'm like, oh, but I have morals, I don't go the full way, and you know, trying to understand that and and be like well, is my testimony even valid because I didn't have such a radical conversion, so to speak? Right, because I think, in every way, shape or form, um, there comes a moment where the holy spirit just grips you in a radical way that life does not continue on its same path and its same trajectory. And for me that happened, you know, later on in life, after I had graduated, started working, helping lead and run a biochemical company in australia. 11:25 Uh, you know, I was still involved in the church. I love jesus. I was involved in missions. In fact I was leading missions trips, uh, across, uh, the country as well, but on a missions trip uh, oh, I don't know how many years ago this may have been 15 plus years ago now uh, I got word that my cousin passed away from leukemia. My cousin was about the same age as me and he had been battling, battling it, you know, on and off for about 10 years. And I was just stunned and shocked. You know, in and out of remission it was, you know, looking good, okay, not looking so good, but in the span of a week it flared up and he passed away. 12:12 And so I was at this, um, yeah, I was doing missions to young school leavers up on the gold coast in australia and trying to reconcile with what am I doing here? I didn't even get to say goodbye. You know these kids, you know, 17 year olds, that I was trying to minister to, to present this gospel of hope, love and that that God is with them, for them, that their decisions don't define them at this point in time. That just became hollow. I was like that their decisions don't define them at this point in time. That just became hollow. I was like they don't even care that I'm here. I don't even care that I'm here, right. So you know, I saw that out for the next three days, went back and I was just in a little bit of a funk, right, you know, the funeral was that weekend. 13:04 We went by and I was angry. I was angry at God, partially because like why, why did this need to happen and how could it have happened? And his parents got up you know amazing believers as well. They said you know, he fought the good fight, he finished his race, he did on earth all that god had wanted and intended him to do. You know, I grew up the church. 13:31 I heard that that just felt like a cop-out. That felt like really, if he, if he didn't live a year longer, he couldn't have impacted another life, he couldn't have done something else to benefit the kingdom, let alone just the people around him. So I was like, you know, I'm just here, I'm just, you know, supporting the family, but not wanting to be here anywhere and just dealing with God and his sisters got up, younger sisters, and they got up and they said you know, no matter how much we love Bonham, God loves Bonham more. And that broke, like just those moments, like in their grief. They were able to declare it in between their tears. They said that and it wasn't just a statement, it was a pure, simple revelation of God's love. 14:27 And for me, that is something I hold so dear, to recognize that the amount of pain that I was feeling, the grief I mean God feels, God hears, god understands, God knows, and in that way, shape and form, I couldn't outlove God. You know, god's grief was there as well with me and I, you know I was a mess, I was crying. I, you know, I could not even. I don't even know what happened next, but all I know is I resigned from work and four weeks later I was working with an NGO, compassion, really helping to address the lives of children in poverty. Right, I think it's been my mission ever since that point in time to really make sure that, no matter who you are, what life throws at you, that you get the chance to experience this tangible love of god so the irony is on your statement like really he couldn't live another year, but, like, based on everything said, like your life pivoted because of his death. 15:30 - Speaker 3 And the reason why I bring that up is because I feel like my life pivoted too, when my best friend died, and he died at like 33. And I remember the exact day and year, like when I got older than him, because he was like three years older than me. Yeah, and I'm like thoroughly convinced now and this is something that I just learned this week is that like when we love people and we deeply care about them, even though, like, I had a lot of fights with my brothers. 16:01 We were like fighting cats and dogs, but like we would always be there together, be there for each other. I realized like, oh, it hurts to love, because the loss of that love inflicts so much pain on your heart. But I feel like that's God's way of like waking me up and waking other people up, and so like I'm thoroughly convinced now like God determines our life and death and that you know that cliche is actually very true that no life is wasted, even if it's cut short, because in God's eyes, there was a plan behind it. 16:34 - Speaker 1 Yeah, 100%, and I think that is one of the beauty of our faith that sorrow may last for a night, but joy comes in the morning, right Through God. Through Christ, everything is redeemable in some way shape or form. It doesn't mean that there are no consequences some way shape or form. Um, you know, it doesn't mean that there are no consequences, but it means somehow god can make every breath that we take redemptive. Yeah, yeah, and it's. 17:03 It's interesting, right, I think, how death shapes and affects those that continue to go on. Right. You have a decision to make. Uh, will it affect you for the negative? And at the Barry Mission, if you're not really familiar, we aim to address issues of homelessness, poverty and all other of those crises. I mean, we've been doing that for 150 years and while there's no real direct path that leads to homelessness you know it's a combination of so many things a lot of it, um, is because of a loss of community and for many people that I've met, I know it has been a traumatic incident that has almost started that slide downwards and they haven't had any support around them to deal with, to reconcile, to make sense of, uh, what they're feeling and how they're grieving, and and how to move through. Uh, and move through well before we get to bowery. 18:10 - Speaker 3 I just wanted to know what your experience was like at compassion, because, because to me it sounds like you were still in a grieving process and I'm just curious as to, like, were you grieving through it while you were at Compassion and did Compassion help? Or like, what were you learning through your time at Compassion? 18:27 - Speaker 1 Oh yeah, I think it was incredible, I think it was you know, it was you know. So I think, from that moment on, one of my life's verse has been Jeremiah 9, 23 and 24. And it says Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom, or the strong in his strength, or the rich in his riches, but let he who boasts boast in this, that they have the understanding to know me, that I am the Lord, their, their god, that excises peace, justice, righteousness, kindness on this earth. Um, for those I delight. And so that helped ground me as I. You know, it's not about who I am, what I do, how much money I can make, the power and influence that I could wield, but I got to know who god is, and that drove me into that same way, with compassion. This is what children and every individual needs to know that it's not in who we are what we can do, but is in who God is, and to have that understanding. And so it was so wonderful for me to see that in action right to, to go visit a lot of these kids and to see them experience a tangible aspect of god's love and the gospel, dealing with critical needs right now and in the process, being exposed to a spiritual nurturing and a feeding that will transcend all of our physical limitations. You know that's on that side, but then there's also another side of you know, the journey that I was on. It became imperative that it's not a journey that I take by myself as well. Right, how do I help develop, create advocates who understand that they need to care about something so dear to God's heart and involve and engage their world around it? So, you know, it was a form of me going on my journey and involving and getting other people alongside as well. And I say this you know, our lives are not meant to be lived in isolation. Our lives are not meant to be lived in isolation. Our lives are not meant to be lived alone. If we're willing to open up, we can go on this journey together. 20:42 You know, I didn't have everything figured out, but I knew a little bit more than someone else, and that person has a little bit more than someone else as well, and so we're in it all together. God was working on my heart, right, you know, when I joined compassion I I remembered someone who was, you know, who lived, breathed, ate, slept. Compassion said don't worry, you'll be sponsoring a kid soon, or more than more than one. You probably sponsor, you know a great multitude, because you will understand what this is about. And I, I thought inwardly, like I smiled and nodded outward, inwardly I was like you know, god, I took the biggest pay cut to work here for this organization. Like, do I need to sponsor a child? Like isn't that a sacrifice enough? Is that not all I was giving? I, if I just worked on my other job, I could have sponsored 50, 60 more and not blinked um, but that was god working on me as well. Like I, I don't. It's not my resource specifically, everything that I have still have more. So many other people right. 21:50 One of the best definitions of poverty was through my time at Compassion and it says you know, the opposite of poverty is not wealth, the opposite of poverty is enough. And for me, I had more than enough. You know, I wasn't even just scraping by. Still, I had more than enough. I wasn't even just scraping by. Still, I had more than enough. And that was something that's once again foundational. It guides me today. It's how we need to live our lives. We have way more than enough. I mean right now in New York City, it's probably one of the biggest cities in the world where we overconsume because we don't believe we have enough. We're never satisfied with what's around, but if we just take a step back, we have way more than we need. 22:47 - Speaker 3 Yeah, that's amazing I realized I was struggling with Because a lot of times in New Yorkork you can't not pass by a homeless person, right. So I'm always struggling like do I give every person home like money or not money and I realized it wasn't about the money, that I was trying to greenwash my guilt and I needed to stop that. 23:09 and like you were saying like, oh yeah, if I made more money, I can give more but, I think what god wants most, and this is something like maybe I'm projecting out of my own personal skills, but what I see in myself is that like, oh, when I invest my time and energy, that's me like giving my life force into something and that's something far greater than money. That like not only god wants, but like helps other people and, like you said, that like is a relational service, you know, rather than just like, like giving stuff away yeah, and I I think even to expand on that further as well. 23:44 - Speaker 1 you know, even time, energy, effort is still just one compartment and component of who we are right, I think god wants all of us and to decompartmentalize our lives, and we don't. 23:55 You know, it's very easy to look at things in lines like money, resource, network. You know my personal being, my time God doesn't just want pockets of it, he wants us, and I think we need to look at that as well. And you know, it's that same question of that same question of someone on the street if you see many people, do you give to everyone, if you feel compelled to, but if you don't, what are you doing behind the scenes to address structural change as well? I think there's many ways to look at it. Right, I think the problem is so complex homelessness, especially in new york city and around our country that, yeah, we can help now, because that is the compassionate thing to do, but we must also invest time, resources, we care about it into shifting, um, structurally, what will happen, so it doesn't continue to cycle and to repeat itself I feel eight generations of godly wisdom. 25:00 - Speaker 3 It's kind of like like wow, it works no, look, you know, I, yeah, I. 25:07 - Speaker 1 I have such a blessing of having wise parents, um, who ground you in that right. What is that proverb? Teach a child in the ways of the Lord, and he will not depart from it. And you know, there are things that are woven into the fabric of who we are from a shaping of our worldview. Right, we can't abdicate that to anybody else when was the moment for you? 25:37 - Speaker 3 and I'm really asking because of my personal experience of like oh, my parents are actually like wiser than I give them credit for and I should listen to them more and stop fighting against them totally look. 25:49 - Speaker 1 I think that that old adage of you know asian parents just drive you to, you know, almost to a point of breaking and defeat it was. It was funny because, while I can understand aspects of that, I think my parents were always very gracious and loving and I mean, when they were wrong, they apologized. You know asian parents apologizing to their kids, and I'm not talking like now, millennial Gen Z parents doing soft parenting, I'm talking like baby boomers. That doesn't happen. Flawed, yes, you know, are we all. Yes, but also I think it took me uh, a while growing up and seeing how much they just invested into people and families. Right, you know, I've seen a lot of families in ministry where parents point to others that the home life is challenging or it suffers. And, you know, I really want to shout out and give credit to my parents, like they made sure to invest in the family as well, because that was a priority, no matter how much they did externally as well. 27:07 - Speaker 3 So how did you go from compassion to Bowery? 27:12 - Speaker 1 Well, once again, I feel it uh, ordered once again by our lord who, uh, my wife and I, we definitely wanted to do a stint overseas, um, you know, felt that call and felt that tug, and we ended up winning the green card lottery and so decided why not? Let's make it happen. We had, um, I think, a few months to make that decision, after you know, going through the interview, getting accepted, and so we resigned from work my wife's a journalist, I am, um, in this aid and development nonprofit space and we thought, okay, where can we land? And many people said, why not go to the West Coast? It's very similar to Australia. And we said why are we leaving all of our networks, all of our community, all of our family, friends, just to go to something similar but not experience what we're experiencing now? And so we were umming and ahhing and thought about, uh, dc or new york, and we thought why not land in new york, book some tickets to see hamilton, uh, and have not left. I mean, this is home now, for however long God has called us to New York. And so connection with the Bowery is there was one other Australian that worked at the Bowery mission before me and we have a mutual friend in Australia, as all Australians do, I think, you know, at six degrees of separation from Kevin Bacon, I think Australians in America, maybe one or two degrees, someone will know someone who knows someone. 28:57 And you know, the first month that my wife Tyra and I were here, we were just tourists, we were enjoying it and finally it was like all right, let's see what we can do, let's try to get some jobs. If we're meant to be here, we'll be here, otherwise we'll travel around for a bit and then head back home. And I hadn't reached out to this mutual friend yet and he actually chased me up and said have you met with our friends? I said no, so he goes. I'm going to put you in touch right now. So we organized something. We're about to catch up. 29:32 She found out what I did and I said look over, here, things are done very differently. Right, my whole CV that was four pages now has to be, uh, one page. Does this make sense? Uh, if I send it out, can you get your eyes through it? And she said carl, I think we need you at the barry mission. 29:50 And within a month I had a job at the barry mission and it was created for me to help lead how we engage with all of our external engagement, primarily focused with churches and corporates, and so through the years it's grown, my role has increased. I get to lead the team that does this and it's interesting for such a legacy, historical organization rooted in New York City. They have an immigrant running that aspect to build these ecosystems of partnerships that drive change, and I think it almost is sort of the New York City story right, it's a diverse world coming together, recognizing that how it is right now is not good enough. What can we do to make it a better place that we want to call home and rooted in our faith, rooted in a home, as christ would have us develop a home? 30:53 - Speaker 3 yeah, I mean, the history of new york is we are a city of immigrants, so like even up until the 90s, um, and I realized like when God does something, it's very quick and swift. It's just in between the happening it's like the unknown and like the extended time. So, yeah, that's amazing. So what do you do exactly at the Bowery? 31:16 - Speaker 1 So I'm our chief development officer here at the Barry Mission. So anything externally related fundraising, our broader branding, pr strategy, how we work with individuals, organizations, agency, government, so any way that we can partner together, you know, we we get to dream up how that is possible so I don't really know much about the bowery mission, except that it feeds homeless people and that's the only thing I knew for a long time, and also because it's right by um like halston street. 31:58 - Speaker 3 Is the mission for the bowery just to provide or to somehow um help them re-assimilate and like get a job or like find homes and stuff like that? 32:09 - Speaker 1 yeah, I think. I think that's a great thing. So our mission is really twofold, right? So I think we spoke a little bit earlier um meeting those critical needs, right. I think there is so much injustice in this world. As a believer, as a follower of Christ, we cannot just sit idly by, and so we have two downtown locations where we are doing that meeting issues of food insecurity, emergency shelter, showers, basic medical clothing. But we want to make sure that that's all done in a way that is not just welcoming, not just inviting, but is dignifying, that is empowering, that provides agency and choice back into your life, where you may have felt no voice and choice around what you're doing as well, have felt no voice and choice around what you're doing as well, and it is in those moments of safety, welcome, where, if you're going through anything, you're able to start to believe again, to hope again. 33:13 So we have clinical teams placed all around our services helping to get to know you, your story. What does it look like? And are there any external supports we can connect you with, or are there any internal supports? And to follow on that, we have residential programs where men and women are making strides to regain their independence and for some it's not even about getting a job. It's about we need to stabilize. You need to find your worth, identity and understand that God has a plan and a purpose for you before you can start even thinking about a job. Right. 33:55 And so some people may find us with jobs, may have lost their house in a fire, may be underemployed or just laid off or something happened, and maybe you only need to stay with us for a month, three months. We are that community. We are that opportunity for you to stabilize so you don't fall any further. Some people find us after years of chronic homelessness, dealing with addiction, substance abuse issues, escaping domestic violence situations, right, those things it isn't about now. Well, get you a job, find you housing and you can be on your way. No, we, there's some deep healing and trauma work that needs to be tackled so you are better when you leave and then you're connected to a community of alumni. You're no longer isolated and alone. And that's our mission and dream for everybody, regardless of your current circumstance that with us, through the mission, we can help write what that next chapter is together. 35:06 - Speaker 3 That's amazing. I never knew that. It seemed like it's a holistic care for the person. 35:12 - Speaker 1 Yeah. 35:14 - Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah. 35:17 - Speaker 1 Oh, I was going to say, and part of that is the work that we do with adults. We've been running a summer camp for 135 years as well, because children eventually grow into adults and around. I'd say. Just over a decade ago we started a children's program working with households living below the poverty line here in New York City, so we're connected to about just under 300 families and we do after-school enrichment programs, we do mentoring, leadership development. We still have a summer camp every year out in the Poconos. But the idea and design behind that is, once again, children don't choose where they're born into. But if we help children get the first go at life right, we're not going to need to work with them as an adult, right. What we can change is how these children see the circumstances that they're born into and we can raise up change makers and change agents for their community to bring the change that is needed how? 36:26 - Speaker 3 so like, tell me if I'm wrong. I always had this, uh, like an imagination that, like people volunteered bowery around like thanksgiving and christmas, but like the rest of the year, people don't show up, or at least the good ones do so. Is your that's like the rest of the year people don't show up, or at least the good ones do so? Is your that's like the people that come and volunteer? Is that very consistent throughout the year, or is there some months you need more? How does that work with volunteers? We? 36:51 - Speaker 1 are really blessed to be able to get lots of volunteers. I, you know, I would definitely agree with you that around the holiday season everybody is reaching out to volunteer, but throughout a year we get about 12,000 unique volunteers through our doors. I mean, we're serving multiple meals every day. We serve over 1,000 meals a day. We have services going on from 7am to 7pm and we're not we. We don't need 50 people to come at once, right, but every two hours a group of 10 will be present to help us do what we need to do. 37:27 And I'm biased because I work for the mission, but I think it's one of the most beautiful volunteer opportunities because you're not just serving, you are actually now in proximate community with people that you also have a desire to help but may not have known how. 37:49 And it's in this approximation, being in close community with someone. As we interact, we see the humanity through the issues, through the circumstance, and we recognize that we're all created in the image of God. We're all not so different. There's just a series of supports that we may have had in our lives that have enabled us not to be in that same situation right now. I mean, we saw a global pandemic hit and instantly there were people on our lines. In our lines who would have never dreamed in their lifetime to need to come down to the mission right. That's how quickly it can change and I think as a community, as a city, as a society, we understood that more at that time because it affected us as well. But when it doesn't affect us, we're more easily able to point fingers and say well, they did something wrong, it's on them. 38:58 - Speaker 3 How do people sign up to volunteer just? 39:00 - Speaker 1 on the website. 39:02 On the website bowringorg forward slash volunteer. Uh, you know you'll probably see 20 or 30 options over the next few days. Don't be overwhelmed. We have a volunteer team. Uh, you know, you can always reach out to as well. You can come in with your church, your corporate, your group, and you know a lot of people also want to find ways that they can give back and support through their volunteering and putting some funds and finances behind it as well. They're like, hey, instead of spending all this money going bowling as a team, let's donate that money and go to the mission and serve. I'm like yes, you know, this is this is what helps your time, your impact, continue to live beyond just your service as well I have a couple of more questions. 39:49 - Speaker 3 Um, I might edit this part out, but like yeah, yeah bluntly, like, outside looking, is there's this cognitive dissonance of these wealthy people doing this gala, raising money, and then it's like for homeless people and so, like, visually, there's just this stark chasm. Um, I just want to get your thoughts on that and no judgment. I'm just saying like it, just it, just. It's just this dichotomy that I see absolutely right. 40:15 - Speaker 1 I think, um, I think there's many ways to look at that, and here's where we don't know as well. But what is the heart behind the gala as well? I think I could speak for the Bowery. In all that we do, we want to make sure that our clients and the community that we serve, um, we put them at the forefront, right? So, even in our language, right, it may not be the best, uh, marketing, but we don't say homeless person, we say people experiencing homelessness or our neighbors in need, right, that's the circumstance of it all. And, in that same way is, is the gala there to serve the needs of the donors or is it there because it's going to be creating a community where our donors can gather and be inspired about the work that needs to be done and their role in it? And it's also, you know, if we look at it right. 41:25 You know, do we enjoy ourselves? Yes, does any Christian enjoy themselves? Yes, do we waste money on things that we know we shouldn't? Yes, you know, sometimes we like to look at charities and point fingers and say, well, you know, that's not done in the right way, you're wasting that. In that same way that if someone is asking for money on the street. We're like, oh, I'm gonna give this to you, but only spend it on good things. It's like I don't spend my money on only good things and my role, my salary, is funded by donations, right, you know, we don't hold ourselves to the same standard that we hold other people to and those that are sometimes less fortunate, and the harsh reality is, when you are experiencing trauma, you don't make logical decisions, you don't know how to connect the dots that maybe you and I can see externally on as well, and so there needs to be that element of grace there as well. But back to the galas, because I think, if done well, they're also a great place to gather people, right? I mean, for some people, their life is to take a vow of poverty and join a monastery, but that is some people and they have been called to that and they will be empowered for that. 42:56 Some people are supposed to be business leaders, and it two ways. We need to meet business leaders where they are at, in a world that they are familiar with, and then show them how that part that world is not enough if our worlds don't combine and merge together. Merge together and in that same way as you come and present and be present. You know, I've had some senior people who have never cleaned their house sweep our floors, right, you know, so you know. But in that same way, right, they're comfortable with that now because they've gotten to know us. You don't just start with that and expect people to be involved and engaged, but look at the gala. If you're spending more at the gala than you're raising, then I think you need to look at it. We run some galas and we raise 10 to 13 times more than we spend, and so it's a great investment as well. 44:00 - Speaker 3 No, that was really helpful. I think what I'm getting away is you guys are acting as mediators between those in need and those who have plenty, and sometimes those plenty are fancy people, nice dresses and tuxes, and you know. I think, because you guys are so mission oriented and like goal oriented toward like what you're trying to do. I think that's just an amazing thing to bring anywhere and whatever you do. 44:23 - Speaker 1 Yeah, and yeah, I love what you said. You know mediators, yeah, we see ourselves at that bridge, you know, between communities, helping people take the next step to cross over. Some people don't cross completely, they just want to check if the bridge is safe. You know, and to extend that metaphor, but so many people, especially in new york, you, you understand the issue, but you don't know what to do. We want to be that bridge, but to also help empower you to make a difference. Right, I think one of the challenges that we face as where and and this is broader, as more issues and crises come to life, education is a big part. 45:06 If you don't know the issue or you don't know why, this is an issue that we should be involved in and this is an injustice that we should be addressing. You don't want to get involved. But then, if you tell people that there's an issue but don't provide pathways for people to help, you've created apathy and now the problem is too complex and I, ah, well, it's fatalistic, it is what it is. Life will go on people forward. You need to empower them with baby steps and you know different things that they can do, so that they get on their journey by themselves and they discover. What else can I do, you know? Uh, it's so. It's not just all driven from us, or you and me, but it's. 45:55 - Speaker 3 It's an impetus for people to start learning and delving deeper you know, it's funny's funny and I'm going to end on this. Well, I have two more questions, but, like I realize, life is very simple and easy. People are complicated. Yeah, I know. Yeah, it's the people in the life? 46:13 - Speaker 1 Yeah, and I think, more than it's people, I think we choose to complicate things. Right, if there's a decision of simplicity and complexity, let's say you know, my friend didn't text me back and you know, you know what. He probably hates me, he's angry at me. It's our insecurities, our whatever it is that complexes life, right? Have you ever got an email that's like oh man, they're mean, like no, it was a functional email that had a task. It was no emotion into it, but we're all so unique we all have a worldview that has been shaped from birth that a lot of times there is a lot of grace in how we respond and, uh, react to other people. 47:08 What are you hoping for at faithly? Yeah, I, I think the beauty of faithly in doing this is we all need community and a lot of times, like we were joking, people make things complicated, people like to isolate themselves or people like to present a form of themselves that is good for the public. I think we need to strip those layers behind and if it can create and promote just that raw connection, I think that's important. I think the world needs more of it, let alone just people in ministry, but I think in ministry specifically. We do need that. 47:52 - Speaker 3 Oh yeah, Tell all your family members. I feel like you have hundreds of cousins. 47:56 - Speaker 1 But you know it's fascinating. That's on my dad's side. On my mom's side, you know, there are, you know, uncles and aunties that don't have a faith. I mean, you know my mom was cut out from her family for a while because she chose to serve God. Right At the wedding, at their wedding, my dad and my mom, they were giving thanks to God. My grandfather on my mom's side said what do you mean give thanks to God? My mom, they were giving thanks to god. My, my grandfather on my mom's side said what do you mean give thanks to god? You should be giving thanks to me and, like, cut us off from that side of the family for a decade, right, um, so yes, I think you know both sides to draw I need to get you back on the podcast because I feel like your family stories are like amazing happy to do whatever is needed if if it helps at all last question is how can we be praying for you and your family? 48:49 uh, I think well topical right now. Uh, all of my side of the family is coming over to spend christmas here, so pray for safety and that we can beat the crowds and we can enjoy all that New York has to offer and, you know, in really beautiful form. They're here for vacation, but I've got them serving at the mission as well, just to see my world over here. I think one of the biggest things to pray for is just that distance. A lot of my family is actually all of my family is back in Australia, right, and so we've had to build family here, friends who are like family, that community. I think community is important to me, but it's not easy at all times, right. I think there's just that certain element with family family, you know, no questions asked. You can just collapse and be present, and so thankful that we have such deep friendships here to be able to do that. But that is always a prayer. Distance is hard. 49:59 - Speaker 3 Thanks, Carl. This was great. I learned so much about Bari, but I'm fascinated about your family. I kind of want to meet them. 50:07 - Speaker 1 Well, look, and you are in the neighborhood the 23rd of December. We're serving at the mission. You can casually come by. 50:17 - Speaker 3 All right, that's it for the podcast, guys, bye. 50:20 - Speaker 2 Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. The Faithly digital platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection, foster collaboration and promote growth within the church and ministry space. Remember to subscribe, rate and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you. Stay tuned for more uplifting tales from the front lines of ministry on the Faithly podcast. Stay bold, stay faithful and never underestimate the power of your own story.