Life of a Pastor From the Inside - Joshua Gordon

00:01 - Speaker 1 The life of a pastor from the inside, like it was very lonely, like I don't remember my dad having friends, like I think I was probably 21 before I heard, like heard my dad say, oh, this is my friend. Like I'd never heard that, and so I didn't really see pastors having friends and having good connections. And I also saw some really painful examples of like pastors being lightning rods for people. And this is, I've come to see, like this is actually part of what it means to be a pastor as well. It's like people sometimes they take out their frustration with God on you as a pastor sometimes. And man, that really sucked. Hey, my name is Joshua Gordon and I am editor at TheLeadPastorcom. I am also a lay pastor, I'm a dad, got so many children. Well, it feels like a lot for me. I'm an author and I just love Jesus a whole lot, and this is my Faithly Story. 01:00 - Speaker 2 Welcome to Faithly Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life. Join us as we delve into their challenges, moments of encouragement and answered prayers. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. Learn more at faithlyco. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired as we unveil the heart of faith through stories from the front lines of ministry. On the Faithly Stories podcast. 01:42 - Speaker 3 Tell me how your faith journey started. 01:44 - Speaker 1 Okay, so I grew up in the church, so my grandfather founded a church and then my dad married my mom and then he became the lead pastor and I'm the oldest son in our family and so you can kind of imagine the types of things I heard my whole life. I'm like, oh, I'm gonna be a pastor someday. And when I was younger I thought that was awesome. And then I actually went to Bible college and I don't know exactly why, but I burned out pretty hard. I got really frustrated with the kind of training I was getting and I mean, everyone's story has got tons and twists and tons of twists and turns. But eventually I kind of hit a spot where I kind of swore to myself like I will never work for a church. I'm done Like. I never walked away from Jesus. I always loved Jesus. But in terms of like what you know, practically speaking, the body of Christ is going to look like on earth, I was just like I don't think we're doing church right. And you know, reflecting back on that, I think that there's a ton of personal damage that I'd taken that I didn't really recognize at all, and so I would say that I experienced a lot of collateral damage at the hands of church. So, going through college and then interning at a bunch of different churches, I had a lot of wounds and Jesus took really good care of me and really good care of my heart. You know, over the span of probably four or five years he brought some like really special people into my life. I got some counseling and processed a lot of the difficult stuff that I'd experienced and kind of began to see and realize that I, my calling to be a pastor, was something I didn't have to work hard towards. In a way, there's a moment where I feel like Jesus really kind of whispered into my heart and he's like you know, josh, you're going to be a pastor someday, but don't worry about it, because when the time comes you'll want it. And that was like so freeing to me, like, oh okay, when it comes along I'll want it. I'm like great, it like took so much pressure off of me. 04:03 And so I would say that, you know, I've been a believer my whole life and but I think my faith really began began to sink kind of deep into the you know, the bedrock of who I am, probably in my mid twenties. Give or take, and that's kind of what I would say I began to see like all right, my relationship with Jesus, the intimacy that I experienced with him on a daily basis, really kind of began to, you know, say it began to show fruit. I guess, um, cause I know that you know um, god, I mean I love in Psalm 23, it says goodness and mercy will follow us all the days of our life. You know, I just imagine that you know, god's got two big I love Irish Wolfhounds and so just two, just two big wolfhounds, one's called Goodness and one called Mercy, and kind of been chasing me my whole life. And so, yeah, that's what I began to experience, that a lot more in my mid-20s. 04:53 And so now I'm 39 today, and so I was part of a church planting team five years ago and worked on planting a church and then I joined their pastoral staff I'm a lay pastor about three years ago and I started working at theleadpastorcom, which is a website specifically devoted to helping pastors and church leaders to streamline and make their day-to-day ministry more efficient so they can spend more money and more energy and more of their time doing the things that pastors get into the ministry to do. And yeah, so I've been there, started early this year, and so it's been really really cool just to see how God's had his hand in my life the whole time, opening doors, closing doors, and so, yeah, it's been quite a journey. 05:44 - Speaker 3 It's quite a journey. Yeah, I would say like I love jesus, but his bride's a little messy 100, 100. 05:50 - Speaker 1 There was a. There's a moment in my in my counseling experience where the council, I was talking with counselor, we were talking like parenting and stuff, and I was like I just struggled so much with the thought that you know, in same way that I got a lot of damage, I think all of us like in our family of origin, and I was like I just don't want to cause pain for my kids. And the counselor was like you know, josh, like think, like who's the best parent in the whole universe? I was like, well, god is. And he's like, how are his kids doing? And I was like that's a great point. You know, like I I don't have to be the perfect dad, like I could be the perfect dad and my kids still can be screwed up and messed up. 06:30 And so, um, I have another great mentor of mine is a guy named Frank Freemans. He was a pastor for a bunch of years in Louisiana and I remember he he said to me one time he was like you know, I love the church. I love the church enough, I'll fight for the church. Even that means sometimes I have to fight the church, and I've kind of seen that even in my time as a lay pastor too. There's times when loving someone requires being willing to step into conflict with them, and that's not really an easy thing to do ever, especially for me. I thrive on positive reinforcement, I love it when people like me and so being willing to step into a place where someone might feel criticized like, oh, I just hate it, but sometimes that's what you know, love requires that sometimes. So, yeah, it can be tough. 07:14 - Speaker 3 Yeah, the strongest families fight, and that's why forgiveness and reconciliation is such an amazing principle, right? Yeah, I think so, for sure, for sure. So where was all this? Where did your grandfather settle and your parents meet? 07:26 - Speaker 1 Yeah, so my grandfather was born in the Netherlands and then he emigrated when he was 19. And so he planted a church right around a little town. Well, at the time it was a little town called Guelph, ontario in Canada, and so it was about an hour and a half, uh from toronto and, um, my dad grew up in that same area, uh, and then my mom, so my grandfather's daughter, uh, so they met. I think my dad was like 14 or 15, and so my grandfather actually led my dad to jesus and then was a big part of his own his faith journey as well, and so that's where my mom and dad met and that's. That was a church that I grew up in. 08:06 Um, and then when I, when I was 19, I wanted an away from home experience real bad. 08:13 So I kind of I felt like a kind of a call to ministry, and so I made a list of all the bible. 08:19 This is a terrible way to make decisions, by the way, but like I made a list of all the bible colleges in canada and like, picked the most interesting names, and then it's like, okay, which ones are out of province? And so I narrowed it down to rocky mountain college in calgary and I think there's like bethany bible college, I think is what's. If I remember correctly, it's a long time ago now, but that uh in on the east coast, and so I ended up flying out to uh, calgary, alberta, and to check the school out and there's some super cute girls there, and so that made my decision for me and again it's like not like the holiest or most spiritual way of making decisions, but at the same time, like God worked in my life, you worked in my heart is a great school, that school that I really enjoyed my time at Rocky and, ironically, I did meet my wife there, and so she my parents, were delighted when they found out she's actually from Ontario, where I'm from as well, and so, yeah, so it was pretty awesome. 09:17 - Speaker 3 Yeah, isn't it funny that God uses all of our foolish decisions we're like so sure about, like oh, this is the way. And then, like you said, if you you never went there, you would have never met your wife. 09:28 - Speaker 1 So there's all these contingencies that like kind of magically work out, you know yeah, a hundred percent, and I think that's one of the things for me too that's like one of those factors in my life that has brought me a ton of peace is knowing that, like, even if I'm afraid of making the wrong choice, god will still use it. He still can use it right, and so that's one of those things where I think there's so much more safety in our relationship with Jesus than most of us give it credit for the sense that God knows us and he loves us and he accepts us so much. He's not surprised by anything we do, like. He's not surprised by anything that we, you know, anything we do. He's not surprised by it. And I think that he's totally happy, very happy to work with the foibles of how Josh Gordon's brain works or how Danny's brain works or whatever, even those silly little things Like. 10:22 So I think that Romans eight, 28, the all things work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his word, like that's like a great safety net for my life. Like every once in a while I'm like, okay, I don't know what to do with this, about this decision, and I'm like, well, if I just sort of kind of take the pressure off myself and know that God will use anything to, you know, for my good, for my benefit. That just takes pressure off and makes my life a little simpler. You know if that makes sense. I don't know. What do you think about that? 10:52 - Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean as long as it's not like a defined sin and some people take it too far with the logical conclusion of. That's why I just said no, it's like in the Bible there's clear things of like the intent of the heart. Yes, like in the Bible, there's clear things of like the intent of the heart. But if you're just like, out of all the good and gray options, just pick one because those actions lead to more action and that's just kind of like how life works. It's like a Venn diagram of events. 11:17 - Speaker 1 Yeah, Life is just a Venn diagram, man. Like we were saying, like 100%. 11:22 - Speaker 3 So what were some of the struggles that you're feeling in bible? Uh, college, because for me, like when I was an undergrad, I like joined like a christian club and whatnot, and then that first year I was like, man, these are just hypocrites. And like, looking back, like we're all 18 and 19, so like who knows anything right, but like as a freshman, like a senior, was like, oh, four year difference, yeah, that's why, like the following year, I was like, okay, I'm going to abandon the Christian club and just party with my roommates and that was a lot of fun, yeah. But I realized, oh, they're all the same. One's just saying they're trusting Jesus and the one's not. But for you, what was the struggle in Bible college? 12:01 - Speaker 1 That's a great question. I've thought about this a bit, I think. If I'm really honest with myself, I think part of it was sort of like what you were kind of alluding to, that sort of a sense of you know I'm, I'm like you know, 19 or 20. And so I don't know, like 19 or 20 year olds, just have this perfectly clear understanding of how the world works and so, like I had that for sure and like, and so seeing such a disparity between what I thought should happen and then just the realities of what was actually out there, like it just kind of grated on me too. I think that something else that I really wrestled with as well was, I think I didn't quite understand I think there's probably two things. 12:40 I don't think I quite had a clear understanding of what it meant to be a pastor, and because all the examples of pastors that I'd had. So my dad was a pastor, for you know, from my 14, 14 or 15, he became the lead pastor of the church I was at, and then my grandfather's pastor for my whole life before that, and I just saw it, you know, seeing the life of a pastor from the inside, like it was very lonely, like I don't remember my dad having friends, like I think I was probably 21 before I heard, like heard my dad say, oh, this is my friend, like I'd never heard that, and so I didn't really see pastors having friends and seem to having having good connections. Um, and I also saw some like really painful examples of like pastors being lightning rods for people, and this is, I've come to see, like this is actually part of what it means to to be a pastor as well as like people sometimes they take out their frustration with god on on you as a path sometimes and, man, that really sucks, especially when you know, like, seeing my dad, like I don't want to go into too many specifics, but seeing some of the stuff that my dad's had to experience, and actually when I was in my Bible college years, my mom and dad both went through like an incredibly difficult time because of like a deep betrayal that happened, and a large part of it was because just who, who, like they were just like the leaders of the church and so, watching that, you know like, like, oh, I don't want to do that like, I don't want to experience that at all, and I don't think at the time I realized how big of an impact that had on me in the moment, um, but yeah, there's, I experienced a real frustration, also through some of the church. Like there were two churches specifically that I interned at and in both of those I can see now I really experienced mismanagement. That's what it was and just in terms of like just a lack of understanding of what I needed. Like as an intern, I felt like it kind of given a task and kind of put in the corner and I didn't feel like I had support. And you know, some of that's probably due to my own um, you know, lack of ability to communicate my needs, my own lack of understanding of my needs and that type of thing. But I think that I was kind of immersed into the yeah, I think mismanagement keeps coming back to my mind. It's like I think that I was kind of immersed into the yeah, I think mismanagement keeps coming back to my mind. 15:08 It's like I think I was mismanaged and so that's really formed my heart now, in the sense that I think God's used that, he's redeemed that to help me to see the importance of importance and the value of each person. You know, at New Life Fellowship that's a church that I'm pastoring at, and each individual they have a special sacred you know, value and worth. You know and I was just actually chatting with my dad earlier today and just reminded of this great truth like God's most precious resources, his most sacred resources people, you know. It's not money, it's not time, all those things you know that, as not money, it's not time, all those things you know that as pastors, you always feel like you don't have enough of. Like no, it's people. That's God's most sacred resource. 15:53 And so I think that lesson was really burned into me, you know, in college. And so I would say, like, probably the other thing is, I in college I looked at the world and I saw, you know I think I'd read some stats at the time that said, you know, you know, the next 20 or 30 years, like 70 to 80% of people in the world will live in a in an urban center, a major urban center, and I looked at the training I was receiving and I felt like I was just being trained to be a pastor at some tiny little rural church and that didn't seem cool to me, that didn't seem flashly enough, wasn't sexy enough, and so I think there was some discord there as well. And you know, now, looking back, I feel a little bit ashamed or not ashamed. I feel like I'm okay. 16:36 I just see my lack of understanding in that kind of perspective and I'm realizing there's a real special honor that comes with. You know, walking with somebody over the long term, you know, for 10, 15 years, and seeing someone and helping them, you know, with their understanding of who Jesus is and helping them to, you know, just kind of walking them with him along that journey. There's a real special honor to that. That is way more important than you know. As fun as church metrics are and as great as to see our numbers are growing and you know their money's increasing, like all that's really wonderful. But the point is like we're as pastors, our number one job is making disciples right, and so there's a whole bunch of other stuff that comes along with that. But I think I didn't quite understand that in my in my bible college years, which led to a lot of the. 17:35 - Speaker 3 You know, as I'm saying this like I'm realizing, you know, my, my burnout was probably my own fault oh, man, there's something about the mind and how we construct like a version of reality based on our perception, and a lot of that is just expectations. And you know, deconstruction is like a dirty word sometimes in the church, but actually I don't think people are deconstructing their faith. I think they're deconstructing the expectations they had about their faith and so, like that's the beauty of god is like, oh, all the little stuff that you think the life you want, it's like poof and then he gives you the life, and that's why what I've learned this year actually after 41 years, so I'm a late bloomer too is a couple of late bloomers Love it, be faithful where you are to the day you know, and God you know, so, like I lived in atlanta, I was in philly and, like, when I was in college, I went to binghamton. 18:29 But I realized, like, like he will make my life situations great or terrible so that I'll have to leave and go somewhere else. But wherever I am, as long as I'm around his people and um, witnessing, like, why I do what I do according to who he is and his word, that's enough and I leave the rest to him. So my life has been simplified in that way. 18:51 - Speaker 1 Oh yeah, 100%, and I think that's one of the things that the world around us doesn't get and that's a huge disconnect. I think where you know it's, there's a there's this cool factor to being busy or to having like, oh, I've got all these different things going on and like I've had like a biohacking and like all this and like some of those like is legitimately kind of interesting stuff and kind of cool stuff, but at the end of the day, like I don't think that we as humans were designed to thrive well in that kind of a scenario and that kind of a situation. Now, the reality is we're kind of plunked into that culture and like I wish I could change culture, but I can't. I have control over my own mind and my own thoughts. You know, I definitely don't have control of my own I'm. I'm a feelings, I'm a big feel, my feelings are big. So being able to like, sort through my own emotions and like, okay, what's going on here? Like, and. 19:48 But it always comes back to simplicity. Right, I was thinking about, um, you know, god took the prophet elijah or elisha I always get the two mixed up but uh, and saying, you know, I'm gonna show you myself right, and it was. It wasn't in the the huge, impressive fire that blew through. It wasn't through like the massive, all encompassing storm, like it was like the still small voice. And that's what I'm realizing is like God speaks in a still small voice. I wish it was, you know. Like I don't know if you grew up watching the Hanna-Barbera movies, right, and it's like every time somebody prayed and God spoke, there's always a beam of light that came down. Every time somebody prayed and God spoke, there's always a beam of light that came down. And I was like, why is I need a beam of light? Come on. Like like that's not how it happens, right, like it's, it's just in the still small voice. 20:35 And that's one thing I'm realizing too, as a fellow late bloomer, is that God's leading. I think sometimes I think it's just me because, like God speaks in my mind, through our minds, right and so, and he speaks through a lot of different ways, but I think that a lot of times he's he leads through my own like desires. And you know, I caveat that in the sense, like what you're saying, there's like the obviously, like if we've been made one with christ, like, like I think it's in roman says what we have and, like you know, our hearts have been, like you know our hearts have been made new. Then we can trust our, our own hearts, and but being able to sense god's leading, like that's a skill, takes time, it takes practice to risk getting it wrong. You know, and that's again with that, romans 8 28 such a wonderful safety net, right? 21:22 Um, the other thing is too, is god where god leads? God leads, there's peace, and so for me, following God's peace in my life, and again, it's, it's. They're simple things, right, and I think that our lives can be simple and not easy. Simple and easy are not the same thing. I wish they were, but they're not. And so I think that's the kind of the life that God wants for me is one where I'm able to relax in him, regardless of the life that God wants for me is one where I'm able to relax in him, regardless of the circumstances, I'm able to, you know, experience peace and joy, and you know the fruits of the spirit, regardless of the types of circumstances I find myself in. And that's, you know, if you really think about that, like you know how many people do you know who you could say, oh yeah, well, that's a really peaceful person or really joyful person, like, like. But that's that's what a life, that's the results of a life. Live trusting Jesus and risking. Risking with Jesus, you know that makes sense. 22:18 - Speaker 3 Yeah, perfectly, like. One thing from the previous things you said is I no longer say like, be perfect, like I'm not perfect, and people say I'm not perfect, I'm not Jesusesus, but like my counter argument is that you have the spirit, you have the same spirit, so you are right. But I don't think the christian life is about being perfect, like. I think it's accepting the fact that we're special, right, because people are not perfect. He's perfecting us, but yeah, we are special. 22:43 And throughout all the mess, it's this, this life of constantly getting hurt, because when you love something, you're signing up for getting your heart destroyed, right, and saying like okay, it's okay, I'm going to get through this. But it's also realizing without the mistakes, and startup life teaches you this real fast. You have to make so many little mistakes, not big mistakes, little mistakes and it'll teach you and guide you. And I think that's what I've been learning that like God really only cares about faith, like he's teaching us how to trust him and trust ourselves in the way we try to obey Right. So, even if we obey imperfectly, it's like okay. Let me go back to the word, because one thing that's simplified my life is understanding everything in scripture and language. There are patterns God is teaching us the pattern of his character, the pattern of our relationship to him, and so when we see that reflected in the world and with each other, that's when I'm like my emotions aren't conforming or like it feels wrong, but he's telling me to do it. 23:51 So one example is like, like I've shared on this podcast, like living with my mom has been the best and worst thing in my life, like she's an amazing. She was an amazing mom, right, and I got older and she keeps treating me like I'm 12 and that doesn't work for me anymore. Like it, but he worked out a lot of anger issues that are triggered because, in my mind, if you cross my personal boundary, I have the reason or justification to lash out and be angry at you, and god's like no, the only boundary you have is your body, right? So as long as they don't touch me, whatever they say or do, like change all my stuff, that's fine. I'm like okay, and especially because she's my mom, so I can't like you talked about, you know feeling ashamed. Like I feel ashamed about that and I got over that shame. Like yeah, thank you for the cross yeah, yeah yeah, a lot of it. 24:43 I think it really is like understanding, okay, everything in my life. I kind of have to be selfish in that way, like it's about me to learn how to trust the Lord with my thoughts and my emotions and do what he says because some way somehow doing it the way he wrote out right Living full, abundant life. Cause I think that's another thing we don't talk about in the church. Is that, like Jesus talks about being fully alive, right, don't talk about in the church is that like? 25:08 jesus talks about being fully alive, right and in the beginning, like of my christian walk, like you think jesus is crazy because you're like give up everything. It's like what, seeking first the kingdom? Like what? Yeah, and I realized once you understand everything jesus is talking about and how everything is just relational and like all the success and all the wealth and all the kingdom is built by people, and people love you and trust you. They'll do anything you want. In an evil way, it can be manipulative, but in a loving way it's like, oh, let's do this together Kind of unity makes so much sense of like, oh okay, Like everything I want to accomplish. 25:43 - Speaker 1 it involves people and you know, with people takes trust, and so yeah, yeah, I think you're really onto something there, and I mean, I think it goes back to something you said so so well, which is, like the christian life is about perfection, right, it's about trust. And it's interesting because if you look at the old testament, like the old agreement, the old covenant that god made with humanity, is like, hey, here, here are the conditions in which you and I can be okay with each other, and it was all about obedience, like, first and foremost, performance, your behavior, and then you have the system of sacrifice, which kind of covers up your screw ups, right, and then what the awesome thing about Jesus? He's like no, no, no, I'm going to take care of that, so that way you know when you are, are in christ, you've accepted the gift of salvation. Like not only are you, like, freed from, uh, freed from sin, past and future sin but you also are made new, right, and so that means that the connection between me and jesus can be, is like, solidified, and and so that means that I no longer have to judge my behavior by did I hit this standard of perfection or performance or behavior. It's like no, like the conditions of success now are did I trust Jesus? And the interesting thing with that is like trust is just so dependent on relationship, like I. It's interesting, like you know, you and I, we've known each other now for like I don't know 30 minutes or so give or take, right, and so trusting you is like okay, he says he's going to email me, so is he going to email me Right? Whereas, like the type of conversations I have with my wife, who I've known for like 20 ish years, like what, like, what trust looks like for Joshosh and sarah gordon is actually it looks way different and like how, like what trust looks like is going to be different for each individual person. And so the relationship of trust that I have with jesus and that with you have with jesus is going to look a little bit different for each person. And so why? 27:41 One of the things I believe and come to observe in myself is that I think that as humans, all of us have we kind of like a similar operating system, similar drives, that kind of like within us, like big I kind of think it was like big questions that we look for answers to like am I valuable, right? Like am I, am I worthy of love, you know, and there's tons of those those types of questions. I think that drive us a lot, and there's tons of those types of questions. I think that drive us a lot, and I think that shame is often a byproduct of having that answer inside. The more that I'm learning what it looks like for me to trust Jesus, the more I actually am risking that trust with Jesus, the less and less shame I'm experiencing on a day-to-day basis. Now, again, I tend to be an emotional person and so I feel a lot of feelings, and so shame is something that I do battle with consistently, and so shame is something that I do battle with consistently. And but the answer to my shame is not just, you know, like okay, for here's, here's an example, maybe it's TMI. If it's TMI, we can just scrub this for the recording, right, but I love TMI. Okay, perfect, perfect. It's like I've struggled with body image issues for much of my life, right issues for much of my life, right and so. 29:11 But what I can say is that over time, as like, jesus has led me through various healing experiences, and the weird thing is is that very often healing experiences are on the, are on the heels, or like just come out, come after like a really painful thing where something, somebody says, something that just like, oh boy, like it just hurts and it cuts deep for whatever reason and I'm like I'm just like suddenly rocked with shame out of nowhere. And I mean, we all know what shame feels like, we all know the headspace it can put you in and I'm like left like Jesus is this? Like I don't even know what to say right now, but like I'm just like feeling horrible and and often like what he, what he prompts me to do, what he invites me to do, is like okay, face the actual pain. Like what's the actual shame of feeling with? Like okay, like I'm going to be rejected, my close friends are going to reject me because I'm too fat or because I don't look good enough or because, whatever right, and it's one thing to say that out loud, but it's another thing to actually feel that you might believe that. And then so, facing that pain and facing the source of that shame and then allowing Jesus to come in and meet that lie with truth, like that is the thing that begins to actually knit that wound back together. And so that's the thing, like people. 30:37 The other thing is like the word trust, like it's almost a Christian buzzword, almost like like for me, the word gamble or the word risk is like sort of what trust means to me. It's like Jesus is saying, hey, like this is what's true about you actually, right, like kind of on the body image thing, like I will like spend a lot of time like making sure that my clothes match and that I look cool or whatever, whatever cool means in my mind anyway. But like and but Jesus, like trusting Jesus, for me means what if people don't like what you look like? Like? Are you okay with yourself then? Right, and then choosing to go out into the world, even if I don't feel like I look great, like it's. It's almost like gambling on the fact that Jesus will be enough for me in the moment. 31:24 And where it's like I don't know for sure, right, it's like is it? Is he going to's? Like is it? Is he gonna be there? Is it gonna be like and like yeah, anyway. So that's a whole I mean we could talk, for I could talk for a long time about my struggles in that area, but that's one of those things, man, where, like, the christian life is so much easier, I think, than a lot of people experience in the same time, it's so much harder because we love to be in control of ourselves and then to kind of bring that in submission, in alignment with who Jesus says we are. That can be really hard sometimes. 31:57 - Speaker 3 Yeah, it's simple, but hard right, not easy. 32:00 - Speaker 1 Right, absolutely Did you watch Inside Out 2? 32:02 - Speaker 3 You know I haven't yet. I haven't, you should, because someone needs to to do, or like a seminary needs to do, like an entire theology of it, because at the core, it's about the self-belief of the identity that she built up and how that gets reconstructed. 32:19 yeah, right, and I was like that movie convinced me I don't need to do a book, I don't need to do podcast, I don't need to do anything, yeah if you're just paying attention to the climate of the human condition and like god is saying, like guys, hey, everything you believe about yourself is here, yeah, and let me tell you something yeah, everything you see, like I I joke all the time like we're in the matrix because, like everything we see is man made. If you really think about it, we're constantly surrounded by the things we created and we constructed to keep us safe and yada, yada, yada. That's what civilization is, but I think it desensitizes us from nature and what God is doing in the universe. And so whenever you see those videos on Instagram where they zoom out to the universe, yeah, and zoom into the quantum level, you feel insignificant and I feel like we've lost the sense of like. 33:12 I see I need to reconstruct a reality that like what god is and what he's doing, yeah, and then see, okay, what everyone else is doing. So, long story short. I. I think everyone if whoever's watching this podcast, watch inside out too, right, and I think it'll make so much more sense to, at the core, what jesus is saying. It's a belief. Yeah, we are believing creatures and we need someone to say this is the belief you need in reality, so that you are sure of yourself and honest with yourself and comfortable with yourself. 33:45 - Speaker 1 A hundred percent, I think, and I think that what Christianity is all about is the recognition that you know you can build your self concept around whatever you want and ultimately, the only thing that won't fail you is Jesus. At the end of the day, right, and you think about there. I mean that's all through the new Testament, at all through it. You know I think about the. I mean that's all through the New Testament, all through it. You know I think about the. You know the house in the rock versus the house in the sand. You know you might find sand that's a little more sturdy than other sand, you know, but at the end of the day, like, jesus is the only one that won't ever let you down. And that doesn't mean you won't think he won't let you down, because sometimes I think one of the hardest things for me has been admitting myself where god didn't meet my expectations of how he should act. I think that's what you get. 34:31 Come comes down to the idea of like the zooming out and the zooming in and feeling insignificant and like it's like reminds me, like I have this so like one of my favorite animals is the humpback whale and it's just like I. I can't really talk, like, describe really why I just love the humpback whale. I just do like but and like my bucket list is to swim with the whale someday, like I really want to do that, and the. I think one of the reasons, though, is just like the huge, like the enormous power that those creatures have, and just like the amount of speed that you have to have to move through the ocean and then to to come up out of, like to breach and then just slam down in the water. Like like those really, really power, like there's so much power that you have to have, and I think one of the things I love about it is like it dwarfs me, and I think that's what you know. 35:30 If I was to point out, I think a weakness of in the current Christian climate is that it's so much focused on what Jesus can do for me on a personal level, and it's beautiful. It's wonderful, it's special, it's sacred, but the thing that we forget is like God's power and his majesty. It's so huge. I think that's the thing that's like part of us. As humans, we need to be dwarfed, we. Your whole world becomes your thumb, like in that moment, right, and so so much of us live with so much pain, and so our whole world becomes the pain we experience, and Jesus wants to come and heal that. 36:22 And it's like what you said like life is about, like finding everything I need in Christ, but then that's not even the end of it. The next step is is like so that way I can love others and I can actually partake with Jesus in the healing and loving of people around me, and becoming like and finding a beautiful fulfillment in being a thread in the tapestry. Right, it's like. The reality is like God loves me, so it's all about me in a way, for the purpose of becoming all about everyone else. 36:54 Right, and I think that we have to follow that progression, though, because if you don't really understand deeply, on a cellular level, how loved you are by Jesus and you try to skip over that and just try to make it all about loving other people, then you're operating out of a deficit, like you're operating out of a place. You know it's like trying to start a car using a AA battery. It's like no, no, like you've got to make sure you've got a healthy battery, you know. It's like everything we need is, I think, in Peter, 1 Peter, I think it talks about we've been given everything we need is in God, I think in 1 Peter. I think it talks about we've been given everything we need for life and godliness. There's nothing that's missing, but we have to kind of understand how Jesus heals us at a heart level and fills us and we're filled with his love. That way it can overflow to other people. We're not supposed to try and manufacture it right, and so, anyway, I feel like we could talk forever about that. 37:49 - Speaker 3 But I have a spicy take about pain now. Okay, bring it on, let's do this. I think pain is contextual. I think for me I've learned yeah, pain and suffering sucked, but now I no longer avoid the pain. It's not like I go looking for pain either, so don't get me wrong but I embrace it because I no longer or I'm trying no longer to react in a negative sense and just let it happen. 38:17 And the thing for me is that when I feel pain or like when I feel like someone is hurting me, like my default is to cry. I realized crying is actually the superpower, because after you cry you get cathartic, because I can quickly come out of that crier. And then, like it's like tears of joy, of like, oh, I get to taste some of Christ's suffering. I know it's like this reverse psychology, but I realized pain needs a context and too often we put it in a negative context. But when you put it in a really positive context, of like, oh, I no longer am afraid of pain, and when it comes, it quickly reminds me of the, the, the shared pain and suffering of christ and it makes me closer to him. And like this is a joke, I tell my friends like, oh, I'm gonna be in heaven and ask him oh, what did you do about this? And like that? Or like if I got lashes? 39:03 like, oh, remember when they hit you here, like you get to talk about like your shared experience yeah and I was like, okay, it's not too bad no, no, yeah, honestly there's. 39:13 - Speaker 1 So there's two things that come to my mind right away. So the first one is that there's only one person that has the actual right to invite me to redeem the pain, only one person. That's Jesus, because he has experienced the full breadth of humanity. Like for me as a pastor. I have a bit of a background in counseling as well, and so I do a good amount of like counseling, walking with people through their pain, and I've experienced my own pain, right, but I've experienced it just like this tiny, narrow slice of the whole pain horizon. I've got this understand one slice, and it might be overlapping with yours or someone else's, but it's still my own. But Jesus is the only one who truly understands, like the breadth of of human pain and suffering, and so he's the only one who has the right to say will you face the pain with me? Right, he's the only one who has the right to say will you face the pain with me? He's the only one who does so to me that's a really powerful thing. So that's the first thing. The other kind of thing, going back to what you're saying, I think there's this kind of dark, underbelly heresy thing of Christians shouldn't suffer or suffering isn't from God, and I would say that there's probably an asterisk. There's definitely an asterisk on that. I wouldn't wanna claim myself to understand human suffering, because that's just a that's. I don't know if any person really can, but what I do believe is that there is an honor and an ability to suffering well, and I think what you're saying about like suffering well was like understand, okay, what I'm going through. It's part of the human condition and it's okay to cry, it's okay to have that pain, it's okay to live in that pain and it's hard, it's horrible, but understand that like Jesus is with me and there's a special. I think there's a special experience with Christ that you can't get any other way. I think it's in Isaiah. God talks about how he hides treasures for us in the darkness. He hides his treasures in the darkness and I think there's some things, some realities, spiritual realities, that we can't really get any other way except through suffering well. And I would make that distinction because I think there's a ton of people that don't suffer well and they become bitter and they become resentful and all of those things. 41:38 I think for those who suffer well, there's like a softness to them. You know that you experienced and like. The side of that is like Hebrews 11, right, like people call it like the hall of faith, like the hall of fame or whatever, and it's wonderful to read if you stop like halfway through, like I think it's like verse 34 or 35, somewhere in there. Stop halfway through because it gets really bad after that, where it's like you know it talks about you know, moses and Abrahamraham samson, like all these people who, like, by faith, did this and that and the other thing, and then it keeps going on. It talks about there were those who, like, wandered the earth without a home, like living in the wilderness. You know there are some who were eaten, killed by wild animals, there are some who were sawn in half like, and like those who did not see the fulfillment of the promise in this life, and it says, those of whom this earth is not worthy. 42:32 And I think about that and I kind of started feeling emotional because I think there's such a, there's such a beautiful truth that our God is the one who redeems, but we also don't always have a guarantee that we're going to see that redemption in this life. But it will be made right. It might be made right when we step into eternity. But, man, that's where I just I feel so out of my depth sometimes. You know, like meeting with people and talking them through what they're going through, and like working to understand and praying for them. It's like God, I don't know, like, I can't imagine. You know, like, know, like and like. I've been through some hard things and my family's been through some hearts, some hard things and like I just yeah, like, yeah. Someone really really close to me was, was abused as a child, like sexually abused, and my own, my own struggles to like, make sense of that and like like, is this like? My god will allow that like? And I mean, I think one of the most uncomfortable verses in the bible for me is in exodus, talking. 43:34 When moses is talking to god, you know god shows him the burning bush. Talking. When moses is talking to god, you know god shows him the burning bush and then god says to moses he says like. Or moses is saying, oh, I'm not like, I'm not good at speaking like, don't send me, like I kind of stutter or whatever. And then god says to moses, like am I not the one who makes the lame blame, like, and the dumb, dumb like ever. Reading that I was like god is like taking responsibility for that for like birth defects. Reading that I was like god is like taking responsibility for that for like birth defects like that's really uncomfortable to me and I think that's kind of like ties in a little bit. 44:06 The idea of like god is so much bigger and more powerful. He sees the big picture in a way that I just can't right and his plan for somebody else is different than his plan for me and it's some of the hardest questions are like God, how do you, how can you be okay with what's happening there and I don't know? Like the things that God's whispered to me are like it's like I know the pain they're experiencing and like it kind of goes back to like he's the only one who actually has the right to ask someone will you face this pain? Like he's the only one who does, because he did it right and so and he promises to be with us and to provide all that we need. But it's deep. 44:48 It's like a deep, deep question, hard, hard questions, and I think for me as a pastor, my life got a whole lot easier when I realized like I don't necessarily have to have the answers to those questions for people, because I think a lot of times we as pastors or people in church ministry, we have this pressure that we have to be able to make it better for somebody. So again, coming back to what we were talking about before trusting in Jesus means it's my intimacy with Him and these are questions that I can offer some thoughts to for somebody if they're going through. But the end of the day it's like jesus is going to speak to them in their heart and the way that they need to hear, and so it's like how can I help other people to hear god's voice? How can I point god's voice out a little more clearly, and that kind of thing. 45:31 - Speaker 3 So yeah, deep stuff, man yeah, the only reason I brought it up is because I think there's this misunderstanding at least in my perspective that you know being healed from trauma and pain means you're going to be pain free, but that's not the case. You know, it might take years for you to emotionally detach, but I realized that's also a superpower when I'm able to tap into those painful memories and cry with those people who went through similar experiences, you know, because now we have this shared pain, you know, and so I just want, like everyone, to know like pain is actually good if used for the right purpose, and I think that's where god is wise right yeah, 100. 46:13 - Speaker 1 I love the, the thought of god being like a physiotherapist. Like I dislocated my shoulder, like a bunch of years ago, and boy, that hurt. And then what hurt almost as much was the physiotherapy after. And it was, like you know, for people who've gone through physio, if you had a surgery or something like that, like you don't want to move your arm the way that physiotherapists is telling you to move your arm, like it hurts. But like we also, like in the recovery process, like you know, if we've we've had our hearts, heart, deep heart surgery as believers and like discipleship, is sort of like spiritual physio where it's like, okay, sometimes god's gonna lead you to things that really hurt and are really painful, but like when we choose to embrace that as as as much as we can like honestly embrace it, then the pain is not a waste right. And like I do think that there is that people do suffer needlessly sometimes because they're like I know I for sure have in a sense that like before my current job, like I had my own business for 13 years and the last my clients were speakers, so COVID came and just kicked the crap out of my business man and so I really struggled. After things started opening up again, I kind of struggled to rebuild back where I was from because my clients weren't spending like they used to. The world changed for me and I really held on to my sense of identity of I'm a business owner, I'm an entrepreneur. It's like I'm a business owner, I'm an entrepreneur, like it's like I'm not going to quit, like I'm not going to like any thought that I should maybe stop or reevaluate, like I just rejected out of hand and as a result of that, I went through probably a year and a half extra of significant financial pressure and financial stress and deep like, like, deep personal challenges and struggles. And but again, like we were saying at the top of the top of our the interview, like god worked with me on that. He's like you ran a little, you ran into that wall really hard a bunch of times, like you didn't have to, but I'm gonna use that and like and so now I'm a little, you know, I'm a little softer inside and like I have a bit more understanding for people and a bit more compassion and and he's provided like I mean, I like I feel I'm so fulfilled with my job, like, like my, my employer's, like a black and white zebra, their media company and they, they're all the sites like they. 48:32 I think they're all like portfolio of like 17 or 18 different websites and they're all about helping people to win at work. Like 17 or 18 different websites, and they're all about helping people to win at work. And so I was hired to be the editor of the lead pastorcom and like and like I didn't know that that existed, like my job before I did, like book editing and stuff like that, and like obviously I have a huge heart for the church and the heart for pastoring. And like, like there's, like again, the overlapping Venn diagram. Like I like God promised to provide and he did, and he made it way better than he had to. 49:01 It didn't have like and that's something I like move through my day. I'm like man, like like God didn't have to give me a life that's so wonderful and fulfilling as it is, but he did, you know, like and um, that's why I like I just live in gratefulness, you know, and especially looking at the decisions that I've made, I'm like I don't feel like I deserve any of the things you know that I get to enjoy today, and but it's a gift from him, and so I'm just super thankful and super grateful, and yeah yeah, I'm in a similar spot. 49:32 - Speaker 3 Like I have zero reason to ever complain about anything. My life is like spectacular. 49:40 I'm pretty creative, I can usually find reasons to complain, no, no. But compared again, all relative, compared to how my life has been, like I'm in the best place in my life and I know 10 years from now I'm going to be like that wasn't that great, because it'll be better. You know, yeah, 100%, because internally I'm not seeing my external circumstances but I'm just saying internally, yeah, I've just yeah, have so much peace, love and joy. So what can you tell us a little bit about the pastor? What was it? 50:09 the leadpastorcom the leadpastorcom like how do you connect with them? What's that about? 50:14 - Speaker 1 yeah, so, yeah. So the leadpastorcom, as I said said it's part of a portfolio of websites. It's owned by Black and White Zebra, which is a media company based out of Vancouver, and so each of the different sites is kind of based around a specific career articles, ebooks, communities, all sorts of resources to kind of really help a person really thrive and flourish, to do work really well and to enjoy their work really well in a specific career. So leadpastorcom was started in 2019 and I was hired in end of February of this year 2024, to kind of take it and bring it up to the next level. So the site specific like the vision that I have for it, my real heart for it is obviously for pastors and for church leaders, because, at the end of the day, I mean, I don't know of any pastors that got into ministry because they love generating church finance reports, you know. Or like setting up volunteer schedules, like that's like the bane of like for a lot of the pastors I know, like that's the bane of their existence, like those admin, managerial type things. Now, the thing is it's so you can't really separate that from the role of being a pastor, like it's part of it, it's just it. Just for me at least, and for pastors like me, it can be just draining Right. 51:41 And so the leadpastorcom, the vision I have for it, is to make doing that stuff as simple and straightforward as possible. You know so, with software, information, all that stuff, you know. So that way you've got the energy and you've got the vision and the space in your mind and in your the, and you know, more funds etc to be able to put towards the reasons that we got into ministry in the first place, like discipleship and like study and then preaching and prayer, all that stuff. And so my goal is is that everything on the leadpastorcom, every article that's that we post and publish, is going to be, it's going to help pastors to do that, do that well, you know to to advance the kingdom. And so, um, hard at work, like evaluating all the articles that are on the site and, like you know, upgrading them and improving them and working on developing the network of, you know, pastors and contributors to the lead pastorcom. Um, and like making, like you know, identifying, you know, seasoned, veteran pastors who've been through it. You know kind of the saying hey, like give me your wisdom, like give me your, like, help me to see how to do things better, you know, and wanted to make sure that every article on the site is something that's going to be, you know, interesting and, you know, fun to read. 52:56 I'm, I'm, I would say I'm a fun person. 52:59 I don't know, I feel like I'm fun. 53:01 Maybe I'm not, I don't know but like I kind of, you know, I have a certain sense of humor and, like I love writing, and so I wanted to make sure that that personality kind of comes through on the site so it's not super dry and super boring, even though, honestly, like articles about you know, how to structure your church financial calendar, like that's not necessarily a super exciting content, but I want to make it as interesting and, like you know, engaging as as I possibly can, right To make it easier for pastors to do that well, and so, yeah, so that's kind of the guts of the leadpastorcom and I feel honored and privileged that I get to do that and I take it super seriously in the sense that, hey, like there's a lot, there's a lot of pastors and a lot of churches that can really use help, you know, and so the fact that I get to do that and I get to be in a position to make that happen, for for pastors and churches all over the U? 53:54 S and Canada like to me. That's I, I'm humbled and I love it. You know it's a good yeah. Does that make sense? Is that clear? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, don't worry about it. 54:05 - Speaker 3 So two questions what are you hoping for at Faithly? 54:09 - Speaker 1 Okay. So at Faithly, one of the things I really like about Faithly is that it is a great way to to see how many other people are out there where their faith is a big part of their career, and so I mean. So I met, got to meet Alicia, and so she's actually contributed an article to leadpastorcom. I hope she's able to contribute more, and one of the things that you know that article talked about is how, you know, for pastors like LinkedIn is something that is sort of the default, like that's the place to connect with other people on a professional level. But LinkedIn hasn't worked for me at all on that space, and so when I set up my Faithly profile in the Discover tab, I'm like man, there's like so many other people here who love Jesus and that's a big part of how they operate and I didn't really realize how this is they're they operate, and I didn't really realize how this is going to sound a little dramatic, like I didn't really realize how kind of like alone I felt, as you know, as a Christian professional, until I saw faithfully and I was like like I'm not the only Christian professional. I knew that mentally, of course, right, but I felt like I kind of was you know and realizing, oh man, there's tons of other people here and they're here because they're looking for connections with people like me. 55:24 And you know, that's one of the things I think with pastoring that is like unnecessarily difficult is that as pastors, the expectation basically is that you're sort of like above people and so, rightly or wrongly, you end up kind of being at. 55:39 You know, people say it's lonely at the top and it's like it's not supposed to be that way in churches, but it kind of is like, and so a lot of pastors don't feel like I myself, like I struggle with this, like I don't feel like I can be open and vulnerable with the people in my church because suddenly my, my pay there, they have control of my pay to an extent, and so like, oh, if I'm struggling, be you know, with an addiction or I'm struggling with this unhealthy habit or whatever it is like I the tendency to keep that closed right, and so it's very hard to to develop a sense of having peers right as pastors. And so that's what things with faithfully I think is is awesome, this is wonderful, and so that's, I think, that's when I think about faithfully I think think is awesome. This is wonderful, and so that's. I think that's what I think about faithfully. I think there's a ton of opportunity there for myself to like start connecting with other people, to develop relationships, you know, yeah. 56:27 - Speaker 3 You can create a secret group and complain about your congregants. That's what I tell pastors. Yeah, you could do that. 56:33 - Speaker 1 You could do that. I don't know if I. I think here's the. I think it's important to have safe places, of course, right, like, and, and that's one of the things that so the way that our church like new life, fellowship is structured it's it's different than a lot of other churches are in the sense that we have four pastors, so maybe we have, maybe, like we're coming up on 200 people in the church, so we have a one full-time pastor and then a part-time, then two of us are lay pastors. 56:59 And one of the things that I'm so grateful for is that I do have a place in that group of four of us where I can go and I can complain, and I know it's not, I know it's the flesh, right, but it's like I just need to get stuff off my chest with people who love me and they're committed to seeing the real Josh and they're not afraid of me sinning, if that makes sense, right, like they're not afraid of that and they're committed to me. 57:27 Beyond that anyway, like well, we have that safe place like man, like when you can speak truthfully about how you feel and what you're thinking in a safe spot like that. There's so much value there, I think, and so I think that's what a lot of pastors and a lot of churches are missing, as I'm so grateful for, with New Life, fellowships like hey, like number one. Our church culture is very open, it's very transparent and it's okay for pastors to struggle and have a hard time with stuff. I don't know how many other pastors would be comfortable talking about body image issues, you know, but I am and I have right and so, yeah, so it's like it's one of those things again. That's like what Faithfully has to offer, I think is something that is desperately needed in, yeah, christian church culture and community. 58:14 - Speaker 3 Even then, you still need outside counsel, because it's like, yeah, you can be best friends with your wife, but when you get into a conflict with your wife you need someone else to talk to. So, yeah, 100, yeah, and I swear like my perspective now is that god just sees all of us as like little toddlers that can talk so anytime someone is like boasting, I'm like, oh, you're a two-year-old, like showing off, yeah, yeah, there's a great quote by my friend Frank. 58:40 - Speaker 1 I mentioned him earlier. He said you know, when we're willing to be toddlers like, we're willing to be childlike with God, then we end up acting like adults with other people. But if we try to be adults with God and try to be all polished and come across the right way with God, then we end up being childish with other people. I was like man. 59:08 There's just a real hard earned wisdom in there and so I think that God yeah, it's weird, I think he sees me as I am right and he's okay with me as I am and he loves me enough not to leave me where I am. He's constantly wooing me and inviting me deeper, you know. But yeah, I think sometimes he's just like oh, josh, you're just, you know, like, and not in a bad way, but like, just in the way you see, like you know like a toddler, like a little kid, like man, I love you, like and I love that you're trying really hard, but like there's such an easy way to do it. But like I also respect and that's the thing too, god respects me Like that's wild, like to think about that. Like he respects me and he's not going to force it, force anything on me, like he'll. He'll move at the pace that I allow him to move Right and yeah, yeah. 59:48 - Speaker 3 There's just so much more there, cause it was about like parenting and like if you tell your kid everything, they're never going to learn, learn, and yada, yada, yeah. So absolutely, man, I'm not gonna go into that. I do want to tap into what was I gonna say. Oh, I completely forgot, that's right. One last thing is like how can we be praying for? 01:00:04 - Speaker 1 you, you know it's, it's interesting, it's an interesting experience to be working, uh, in an industry dominated by google, in the sense that google drops a new algorithm and everything changes. 01:00:18 You know, like Google gives and Google can take away. And so I think for myself, like praying for me, I, I think that the lead pastorcom has so much potential to really make a tangible difference in the lives of just pastors, you know, and that's my heart for it, and that what I really want, and so my heart, like my desire, is that I learn the things I need to learn, I learn to do it well, and that I can grow the site and, like every article is like good, like well done, you know, and so that's, that's a I feel. I feel a real sense of oh gosh, to say a sense of destiny, feels like way too grandiose responsibility, you know, like it's a sense of timeliness, like like the timing of me coming on to take over the site, like, yeah, I just feel like God could do some really wonderful things there and I just want to hear his voice. Well, does that make sense? 01:01:12 - Speaker 3 like yeah, perfect, yeah, yeah, thanks for coming on, josh, this is great. 01:01:18 - Speaker 1 Oh, danny, I loved it. Man, anytime happy to talk through the. You know just the small things like human suffering and trusting jesus we'll make a secret group so that we can 100. 01:01:31 - Speaker 3 All right, that's it for the podcast. 01:01:32 - Speaker 2 Bye guys, see you guys, thank you for tuning in to the faithly Stories podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. The Faithly digital platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection, foster collaboration and promote growth within the church and ministry space. Remember to subscribe, rate and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you. Stay tuned for more uplifting tales from the front lines of ministry on the Faithly Podcast. Stay bold, stay faithful and never underestimate the power of your own story.