Planting a Church in Brooklyn Through Prayer - David Lee

00:00 - Speaker 1
I'm thinking about how do I really cast this vision and paint this picture so that we're not making like poor missional decisions because we need budget or because we want a certain size church. Right, I think we're really trying to keep mission at the forefront and so a lot of that starts with like we've just started doing prayer walks around the neighborhood and inviting church members to come join us. Hi, my name is David Lee. I'm a pastor at Redeemer Presbyterian Church downtown. I've been living in New York City over 19 years, currently now planning to plant a church in downtown Brooklyn, and this is my Faithly Story.

00:35 - Speaker 2
Welcome to Faithly Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life. Join us as we delve into their challenges, moments of encouragement and answered prayers. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. Learn more at faithlyco. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired as we unveil the heart of faith through stories from the front lines of ministry. On the Faithly Stories podcast.

01:17 - Speaker 3
Can you tell me about your faith journey?

01:21 - Speaker 1
My faith journey. Yeah, I think my faith journey is somewhat similar to a lot of immigrants who came to the United States. So I came when I was three years old and my parents had just become Christians just a year or two before then, which meant any immigrant that comes to the United States, the first place you're finding community, whether you're a Christian or not, is the church right. That's like how you survive in America. So I functionally grew up in the church, in the immigrant Korean church, ever since I was young, and that was really important for my sort of communal and spiritual formation and like cultural identity as well. So you know, there are like two different streams in my life. One was like the American dream, which is why my parents came right Like get a good education, become really successful. But then the other stream was like but then you're also going to church, like every Wednesday night, friday night, all day, sunday kind of a thing. So that was kind of my the streams of life that I lived in, which is not that unfamiliar to, I think, a lot of immigrant kids who came to the States. Unlike some kids, though I I love church. You know some kids felt very forced to go to church For me. I loved it. I felt naturally drawn towards spiritual community. I always believed that there was a God and, for whatever reason, I wanted to help others draw closer to Him as well. So at a young age I felt like I was a bit of an evangelist, an apologist for the faith. At the a young age I felt like I was a bit of like an evangelist, an apologist sort of, for the faith. At the same time, though, I was also very motivated to like go to a good school, make a lot of money, buy my parents a Benz, you know, and like a house and all of that too. So grew up in the church, had sort of a saving faith since I was, like fifth grade at like a youth retreat, sort of a typical thing.

03:25
But I think, functionally, though, the American dream always kind of won out. So that meant I would always be at church on Sundays, but really was pursuing a life of sort of success and wanting to make my parents proud, et cetera. So I ended up going to college in New York City. At NYU studied finance and became an investment banker. I was one track minded to what's the fastest way that I can make a lot of money, make my parents proud, et cetera, and that was finance. And then at the same time I was very involved in the church, going on missions trips. At the same time I was very involved in the church, going on missions trips, leading Bible studies etc. But it was really the worldly dream sort of won out. That American dream, I think, was really beautiful to me, more beautiful than anything else, and this kind of coincides with my calling into ministry.

04:20
But when I was in New York I discovered Tim Keller, right, surprise, surprise. And Tim was, I think, the first person that communicated the gospel, that brought these two streams of life together, like the spiritual and the material, and kind of painted this holistic picture of the gospel. That became like, oh, this is beautiful, oh, I have over desires for success and that's actually not great. And so he started to really help me to see the Christian life completely differently and Christianity differently too. So even though I was saved and really accepted Jesus, when I was in fifth grade I kind of had that second adult conversion, that like gospel dropping moment conversion, when I was actually, you know, post-college, working as an investment banker kind of a thing.

05:16 - Speaker 3
So super high level, super high level there, but my immigrant community and then Tim Kellerller really played a huge, huge part in it yeah, um, it's funny because in seminary I was listening to a sermon by tallien to vision, um, and he dropped like a bomb about what grace is and compared it to legal doesn't know. Like wait, what is this true? Can this be true? And that's when, like the gospel became color and like hd to me and I was like mind blown. And then, ever since then, the entire context of what good news was was completely different, from like a moral center to more of like a child likeness center, of like oh, it's a relationship and not just trying to perform.

06:04 - Speaker 1
So I totally get you oh my gosh A hundred percent. I remember thinking like why did no one ever tell me this before, you know? Like one of those kinds of moments and then you realize, oh, I've, what do you mean Like?

06:18 - Speaker 3
yeah, you know, people were saying it the whole time.

06:22 - Speaker 1
But that's when you really realize like Holy Spirit has to do a work in you to really help you to see, renew your heart and mind. There was a really vivid moment in time for me and it came in the most unlikeliest time because I was working 90 hours a week. I thought when I was going into finance that my faith was going to die. I was ready to put my faith to the side. But God really had different plans and really met me unexpectedly, in beautiful ways too. So I always kind of say 15, 20 years ago, if you told me to write down how I wanted my life to go, for me to be most happy and fulfilled, I would never have written the version of my life that I'm living now, right now in ministry right, but I can't imagine being more fulfilled than I am now. My life is, yeah, it's been unimaginable how God has really met me and written my story for me and that's like the best thing ever, you know.

07:23 - Speaker 3
Yeah, when Jesus talks about the narrow path the best thing ever you know. So, yeah, when jesus talks about the narrow path, it's my understanding is more.

07:31
It's narrow, but it's the long way home, like you, know, yeah, because yeah, whatever you're doing, if you're doing in a faith, he will link it all together. And even my story of I started with seminary and being a pastor and and I thought that was like it Right, and then I got burnt out and then, you know, I got a decoding. But now I'm doing this faithly thing and, like there's always a struggle to I've always wanted to go back, but recently, like I had to fully surrender, but there was always a sense of me like but I'm kind of miss it, but I had to let that go and say this is my new path now and if god redirects me, whatever. But yeah, my life did not turn out the way I expected, but it's so much better now than I could have imagined.

08:16 - Speaker 1
Yeah yeah, and I love that man and, um, it kind of it's like the exhilarating freedom and fear of like, totally letting go of your life actually, you know, and sort of saying, I'm not. You know, god, wherever you call, I will go Right, and that's, that's the. That's the story that I always come back to to say, well, god's got me here now, but if he calls me somewhere completely differently, to something completely new, will I follow? Is my life really totally in his hands? If so, he's proven that he knows what he's doing and he's qualified to lead me, so will I trust that. So, yeah, man, I like that. I think that's the life of faith. It's the only life to live.

09:05 - Speaker 3
So what happened in fifth grade, where you kind of had this revelation?

09:11 - Speaker 1
Classic classic Korean church immigrant youth group retreat. Like first time going away for the weekend with the youth group, I was like I barely made it into the youth group. You know, I think I was going into sixth grade, maybe so, or they let me go early, and it was one of those, like you know, speaker at night, and then you go back to the cabin and people start praying and you start confessing and you start like and like these guys that I'd known my whole life. All of a sudden we're like holding hands and crying and praying together, you know. So there's like a lot of emotionalism there too.

09:49
But I think I really did feel at that young age like a sense of the conviction of sin, like I know God exists. I think I principally saw him as like God the father and I knew that I had failed God the Father in lots of ways. And as small as my faith was, I think there was faith in Jesus to cover that. Like Jesus is the way to be in relationship with this God the Father, and so I think I just had enough of that. Where it really does feel like that is right, that is where I say that was the moment that I really became a Christian because I think I did have an inkling understand of grace and it was by faith, but it was principally like a conviction of sin. I think that I felt really for the first time so like lights are low, music is like playing in a minor keys and you're you know you're getting caught up in that. So I was.

10:45 - Speaker 3
That was definitely my coming to faith kind of story but it's funny because it works and I and I get the whole emotional side of it too, because, you know, I kind of had to do a like, a whole 360 about like oh, this is how I grew up. And then in seminars, like, oh wait, emotional isn't bad, but like, but actually it's birth, like.

11:09
I said that, like little hint of huh, I can hold on to this thing, even if I don't understand it because it's like internally real and then I think that's where we're supposed to kind of foster. I'm still stuck like I don't know what is the right way. You know, like if youth groups are valuable because like we had those kind of experiences, but then it also has its own problems of separating from the congregations and parents, you know, taking accountability. So I guess I have a question like what do you think about that? Like your experience growing up in youth group, but now it's like we're detaching generations.

11:50 - Speaker 1
Yeah, I've thought about this recently because I heard this podcast of these different Korean American pastors and they're just sort of dissecting the immigrant church experience. A little bit, I think, like for Asian Americans that move to the city and go to a church, like Redeemer, right, you kind of say, oh, I'm going to move away from emotionalism and I'm going to go to like intellectualism, right, like that's like real faith, that's real grounded faith. But I think there was something in the immigrant story where we had no other place than the church to express emotion. So it makes sense that, like you turn the lights down and there's some music playing and now there's like this expectation of emotion kind of to be expressed, part of you that my parents couldn't really communicate at that level with me, right. So in some ways I think those youth group experiences in a healthy way reminded me this is what it means to be human, you know, and you know it's one aspect and it's an important aspect of what it means to be human, that I think, like we in a lot of church traditions, like we don't want to accept because we're afraid of, like the dangers of emotionalism.

13:11
And yeah, that's true, but you can't swing so far the other way, kind of a thing I think like as I think about planting a church. Right, I think now a lot about okay, I have this Redeemer DNA that I deeply fully believe in, right, but people misunderstand sort of Redeemer as like this intellectual, professorial thing I think Tim, and Redeemer has always thought about like the full flourishing of a human being, like what does it mean to be fully human is like what it means to be in Christ. That's why, like, your work matters, your relationship matters, all of that stuff. And so I actually think the way to take a step forward as I think about planting a church, is how do you help give people a vision of Christianity that shows Christians and the world around us a beautiful picture of what it means to be fully human world around us, like a beautiful picture of what it means to be fully human, not devoid of emotion, not devoid of intellectualism, not devoid of your physical bodies, it's not just your spirit and your soul, but we're integrated beings. So I'm hoping that my immigrant background and youth group experiences will help inform more of my pastoral vision and philosophy of ministry, kind of moving forward, and I think our world today is much more into that right.

14:33
Like 30 years ago the only apologetic was like intellectual arguments for God, and now I think there's much more of an emotional argument as well. So it's kind of coming. I think it's much more of an emotional argument as well, you know. So it's kind of coming. I think it's kind of coming full circle a little bit no, I, I see it coming full circle.

14:53 - Speaker 3
A lot of the podcast content conversations has been like oh, there's this like shift in culture and time and generation, and I think it's a good thing. I think a lot of people, especially in our generation, is seeing it. But my thought process is always like, okay, how are we either communicating it or translating it to the next generation? Because I don't think as much as I appreciate the previous generation and all that they did and all that they went through. You know there were a lot of gaps that need to be filled, and so I'm just so curious as to how we are being faithful to what they've done and then build on top of it, but not like in a way where we're dishonoring but honoring. You know what I mean.

15:40 - Speaker 1
I was going to say. That makes me think of like two different quotes. One is like CS Lewis, I think, talks about like intellectual snobbery, like the next generation always thinks that they're smarter than the one before. And then I think of there's a missiologist, Alan Hirsch. He talks about how do you best honor your grandfather? It's not by wearing his hat and trying to wear his clothes. It's not by wearing his hat and trying to wear his clothes, but you best honor your grandfather by having babies, like propagating life and DNA. Right, that's how you actually honor him. So I think those are kind of loosely related to what you're kind of saying.

16:16 - Speaker 3
No, I love that. That's great. You already mentioned that it was kind of like your American dream. But what were you trying to get out of it besides money? Or maybe it is just money. And then two. When did it start turning into a nightmare?

16:31 - Speaker 1
so I get to share my testimony a lot, because the hack that I have to sharing the gospel is basically I tell new yorkers I'm like, oh, when they ask me what do I do, I say, oh, well, you know, I used to be in finance as an investment banker, but now now I'm a pastor and without, without a doubt, everyone asks well, how did that happen? And everyone assumes that like, oh, you were on the dark side, now you want to come to the light. That I want to leave, because I genuinely believe like our work matters right and there's a hugely redemptive aspect of all kinds of work is certainly in finance and it's important work. And so I kind of try to say, hey, when I had that like gospel conversion as an adult, whether I went into ministry or stayed in finance, I think my life would have looked drastically different. So I don't want to paint this picture of these guys are bad and now I'm on the good guy side. So, yeah, that's kind of, I think, one of the first things that I usually kind of want to lead with about it it.

17:42
But you had another question. I forgot what the um?

17:46 - Speaker 3
I mean, the reason why I asked and why I put it in the turn between dream and nightmare is not because I don't think environments create nightmares. I think it's our expectation and like our um, dissatisfaction right, and those are mostly internal things, and so what I'm trying to root out is like, what was the mindset and heart going in? And, yeah, you were dissatisfied and you weren't getting what you wanted, and you got the realization okay, this isn't for me yeah, yeah, yeah, right, yeah.

18:18 - Speaker 1
I think I was really motivated by the american dream, right, which basically has a promise. Right, it says, hey, if you work hard, you can make a lot of money and then you can have all these things and then you will be happy, right, you will have um a four person household, you know, two kids, a dog, a white picket fence. You know, if you just come and work really hard, like that's sort of the American dream that was sold especially to the immigrants and so, like, growing up really as a poor immigrant in like the inner city, I really did think, well, if we, if I, just make enough money, like all of our family's problems will be solved, right, like we will finally be happy, like we won't struggle, we'll be out the hood. I remember while I was in college in New York, I paid for my own college, I paid for all my bills since I was 14 years old kind of a thing, and I remember having 75 cents in my bank account, living in New York City, so I couldn't even get a MetroCard and I was way uptown. I had no idea how to get back downtown and this sweet lady gave me a free swipe and I felt like she saved my life. I went from that to a couple of short years later, paying off all my student loans, never really having to check my bank account, eating wherever I wanted, buying whatever I wanted, really having a lot of financial freedom all of a sudden, and at first it was like this is awesome, this is great.

19:52
And then, very quickly, I think, my mind and my heart kind of went to like wait, this is it. It's just like 50 more years of this, just like more stuff and more status. And so there was, I think, like an emptiness that I think I pretty quickly got to Like David Brooks, the New York Times writer. He's got this great book called the Second Mountain and he talks about like you climbed this first mountain of achievement and then a lot of people kind of come back down because they realize like that's not that fulfilling. So then they climb the second mountain where it's about like relationships, commitment and lots of other kinds of things, and he says some people actually achieve that first mountain and then they come down themselves. A lot of other people don't even get to go up that first mountain and they have to start to find their way toward the second mountain.

20:46
I think I kind of had that first mountain top experience where it was like wait, this can't be all that life is about, you know, there's gotta be more than this. And I think faith has always been an important aspect of my life and so I think I kind of knew where to look when I had a lot of unfulfilled sort of experiences. I think I was also someone I'm like my dad where I lived off of vision and purpose and meaning. Not everybody is like driven by that, but I think I was always like I got to be doing something else, like I don't think this is what God has ultimately called me to. And people had always sort of mentioned ministry to me and that was always something I felt called to ever since I was younger. I just like ran like hell from it right, because I didn't want that to be true, but that call always kind of stayed with me and God really kind of came rushing back in during that kind of a you know that crisis moment to bring ministry right back into the fold for me.

21:58 - Speaker 3
So for you, were there any skill sets you learned in investment banking that transferred over to like being a pastor and now church planting?

22:10 - Speaker 1
Oh, 100%, I think. Number one I was like a New Yorker. I was like a working professional New Yorker and that's who I'm ministering to, right, so you just understand, kind of like, what people's experience is. You know exactly what that's like. You know why people are busy or why they feel pressure or what work feels like. So that's been hugely helpful for me, practically helpful, as I pastor. And then also, I think if I was at a small local congregation that'd be one thing.

22:50
But I ended up at Redeemer, which is a large church where we have to think a lot about communication and strategy and you know sort of even corporate board talk for session meetings and things like that, where it just I have friends and pastors who really struggle in that kind of an environment, in sort of a professional environment, because they're just not used to it, they have no experience in it. But I think I'm maybe a little too comfortable in that environment and so the thing that excites me about church planting is I need to go out into the world living much more at the street level, and so that's the thing that for me kind of requires a lot more faith. But but yeah, lots of transferable skills and mentally, you know perspectives and um, yeah, it's it. I think it's only helped.

23:41 - Speaker 3
Ministry hasn't really hindered it so I have a spicy question for you, okay, because one thing I see and it's such a luxury, a lot of you know seminary guysary guys, they've never had a regular job. They go to undergrad seminary and they're on this pastoral track and it really is hard to understand a lay person's life. So sometimes they can put unrealistic expectations and whatnot. So what are your thoughts on that? Do you think it should be a requirement for seminarians to get a regular job to understand what the working culture?

24:21 - Speaker 1
is like, yeah, when I talk to people who are thinking about seminary or ministry, Um, this sounds bad, but I always say like don't go, don't go yet. I say don't go yet because if, if you're called and when you're called, trust me, the Lord's going to call you you know you're not going to be able to run from it. Um, like, even for me, I was two years into banking and that's kind of like when you start thinking about, okay, do I move to some other job in finance, and you know there's this. And that's kind of like when you start thinking about, okay, do I move to some other job in finance, and there's this opening, and that's when ministry kind of came back into my life and I was ready to go, I was ready to change my life right then. And there and the pastor my pastor at the time really counseled me to stay for two more years, and a big reason because I had a lot of student debt left and he was like bro, pay that off first. So I knew I was going to going into ministry.

25:18
But I stayed in finance for two additional years and those final two years were the most formative years of my, of my faith life because all of a sudden, like I'm thinking about why does my work matter to God? You know, when I show up, like what kind of witness am I leaving? Like why am I? Why am I showing up? You know how do I want to interact with my, my coworkers. And so it just, and I had more faith conversations with coworkers in those two years than ever. I actually brought one of my, brought one of my bosses to faith during that time.

25:55
Yeah, and then this past summer I preached at his church that he's attending, which has been this awesome full circle moment. But I say that because God can do such a good, deep work in and through you, you don't have to be in vocational ministry. In fact, that's not the message you want to be telling people, you want to tell your church members all of us are called, we are all ministers of the gospel, we're all prophet, priests and kings. And if the church pastor believes well, I'm the only one doing church work and that's only through vocational ministry Well then you know that's going to come out in your pastoring too.

26:37
So I tell guys, like don't like stay, stay longer, keep working. You know, and the Lord is going to call you, like that pull is going to be there and if you never go, it's like all right, probably better that you didn't go into ministry because it's hard, it really has to be a sure calling. So I think I say that because I'm trying to get people away from making this decision off of just a spiritual high kind of a thing and trusting that God will and can do a bunch of work in you and through you to either prepare you to be a better minister right or help you to minister in the here and now versus, like you know, later on, through the institutional church only. So that's usually my advice. I say tongue in cheek, but that's usually my kind of advice to guys.

27:27 - Speaker 3
No, thank you, because I've been saying that for years and when you're the only one that says something like that and no one believes it. They think you're the only one that says something like that and no one believes it. They think you're crazy. Yeah, yeah, you need other people who have life experience, because here's the thing it's not essential right to work before being a pastor, but there are so much more benefits besides the experience. It's just you're just also older. Do you know what I mean?

27:54
And the image I keep getting is like, literally, being a pastor is like the nfl, but we treat it like it's a college game and it's like, bro, like you. It's a college game when you're not the senior pastor, right, and you're just running a department and you kind of do whatever you want because no one pays attention. But like, yeah, if you're in, like the top leadership stuff, there's like so many things that happen just because people complain and people are wrong and people fight and yeah so I love the fact that you give that wisdom because, yeah, it's just so necessary just to understand there needs to be character development before you do anything.

28:42 - Speaker 1
Yeah, Anyone who is super confident and can't wait to be a leader. They've clearly never led and been a lead pastor before. Clearly, I've talked to so many church planters where they come out and they start leading and then they start having all of these feelings of affection toward their previous senior pastor that they used to look at and say, man, I can do a better job than you. Or like, man, why did you make those decisions? You're whack. And then they start leading and they're like I'm so sorry I ever thought that about you. So countless church planters have shared that with me too. Where did you go to seminary? I went to Westminster in Philadelphia.

29:19 - Speaker 3
Oh, you did, yeah, yeah, yeah, what year?

29:20 - Speaker 1
did you graduate 2018. 2018.

29:27 - Speaker 3
So you're far out. I was 2013. Okay, what was your experience at Westman? Like I'm super curious.

29:35 - Speaker 1
So first of all, I met my wife at Westminster, so that was great, fantastic. And now she's a corporate lawyer, so we kind of like switched paths a little bit. I was like home girl, I'm going into ministry already. So if you want to be a lawyer, I'm cool with that ready. So if you want to be a lawyer, I'm cool with that. Yeah, you know, I started working at Redeemer after my first year of seminary. So three out of four years I was basically going back to New York like every week. Yeah, me too.

30:05
And I remember someone said to me like your church should shape you more than your seminary, and that was really important for me and really helpful for me. So I would say Redeemer and Keller and the pastors here shaped my seminary experience more so than just Westminster. So, all that to say, I think I received a lot of great things from it and I can see it in a positive light. Um, but it's also because I wasn't seeking everything from it, like I was getting tons of pastoral experience and pastoral theology and sort of a groundedness and the rootedness at redeemer right through the leadership here, and so, um, I I look at itly. I have, like some of my closest friends and seminary roommates are from Westminster and it was kind of a little bit like college 2.0. You're playing basketball and you're studying late and you're eating bad food at night and things like that too. So, um, yeah, I, I appreciated it, but I also wasn't like in the inner circle, groups of you know Westminster types.

31:19 - Speaker 3
So Me neither Was it like that for you? Yeah, I was going to say yeah, no, I hung out with just my roommates. I wasn't studious, I was like I can't do the classroom thing. So what I did was I literally just asked for the lecture recordings, right, and I took the syllabus and all the notes, and during finals week, for like a week straight, I would just listen to everything in 2.0 speed and then consume the content and so one of those I would be known as the guy that shows up the first week for um the syllabus, and then midterm, and then the final, and then just hang out with my roommates and I got by.

31:56 - Speaker 1
I think it gave me a good foundation and it kind of gave you names to reference so that now in pastoral ministry I'd be like, oh, I want to read Sinclair Ferguson on the Holy Spirit again, you know, or whatever it is, and that's been helpful too.

32:11 - Speaker 3
Yeah, seminary really shaped my mind, especially with my roommates challenging me Cause I used to see a lot of stuff, cause I grew up charismatic, so like I never was taught how to think systematically and in logical arguments, and so like I remember like the first class I had was apologetics with Oliphant Right and he's saying all these words and I'm like Googling what the heck is these allergies and like I have no idea what's going on, bro, my, my first seminary class.

32:45 - Speaker 1
You're like Googling like every other word, right, but usually Google is like did you mean eschatology? Like yes, but there Google is like did you mean eschatology? Like yes, but there are times where I'm like I don't even know what letters to start to type for Google to help me. You know like, and then what's funny about seminary, especially at Westminster, is you go from that and then, like nine months later, you act like you know everything. You know what I mean. Like, come on, it doesn't, doesn't create the most humble uh, humble folks. So, again, that's why I think your church should shape you more than your seminary, because seminary is designed for something else in a lot of ways, I think but yeah, my mentor always said uh, westman is four years to graduate, 10 years to get out.

33:28 - Speaker 3
You need those extra years after, like, oh, oh, this isn't everything. This isn't the absolute truth of God's words. It's just an understanding, okay.

33:40 - Speaker 1
You know. So I'm doing my doctorate of ministry now at Fuller, right, oh, wow, yeah. So I'm doing my DMN now and Fuller is just a very different school than Westminster and it's wonderful to kind of know what you believe and then go and interact with lots of different folks with different backgrounds. That enhances your learning and your humility and your listening so much. I actually think that's a move in this sort of newer generation. It's a newer generational move. I think too, in general, like people are much more willing to speak across tribes than ever. And all that to say, I would, because I went to Westminster for my MDiv. I would. I was definitely not considering it for like any further degrees, cause you're just going to get more of the same right versus kind of getting a diversity of views, which I think is really really helpful. You know, the older that you get to.

34:44 - Speaker 3
Yeah, I love that you said that. I really think it's not a matter of should I go or not to this school or that school. It's if I go to this school then can I supplement it with a broader perspective on other things. But I do love Westminster for their like black and whiteness, for what they believe, because it gave me at least a structure to test everything and at the end of the day, I love the core idea of like grace, you know, faith alone, the solace, right, Like that's like my guiding principle for any theological thought. But yeah, I definitely, definitely had to shed a lot of the arrogance that character formation to like it.

35:36 - Speaker 1
it's tough because you're trying to get young guys to really balance out like conviction of truth and not letting truth go with like this uh, you know, this desire to learn and to grow. You know versus, like I've got it all understood and in this tightly packaged, you know presentation, there's this really fascinating concept called ddos, like deliberately developmental organizations, so it's it's like written by some sociologists, called like in everyone culture and and it basically talks about like the pathways of adult development. Right, and so people used to think that your development in your brain stops as a child and then as an adult there's no real development. But people have studied this now over like 50 years and it's like it's shown no adults can develop. But it takes like a lot of work and like different things that have to happen versus. For kids, if you just give them food, shelter, safety, they'll just naturally develop, right, but for adults it takes a lot more yeah so these like sociologists are trying to think about, like what helps adult development?

36:52
And they kind of outline three phases of adult development. And the first is like the what's it called? It's the socialized mind, where you're just finding belonging. So the first place you start is like who's my tribe, how do I know I'm good, who's liking me, who are my people? And the analogy start is like who's my tribe? Like how do I know I'm good, you know who's liking me, who are my people? And the analogy there is like I just want to be in the car, right, Like I don't care where we're going, I just want to be in the car.

37:24
And then from there you have to go toward the self-authoring mind. I think that's what it's called and that's kind of like well, regardless of what other people think, I have a stronger moral, like a moral compass, like a yes or no, I'm not just going to do it because everybody else is doing it, right. So it's sort of a. I think it's the self-differentiated mind, right. So there's a lot more self-differentiation. And then the final one, I think, is the self-authoring mind, and that's when you kind of become a citizen of the universe and you can deal with contradictions way better. You're more empathetic to others who have different points of views.

38:01
So, like I think that's super fascinating because, like at the bottom is like tribalism and, like you know, it's all about just belonging. Are you in or you're out? And then at the way over here, I think it's like you know, it's like more like Jesus. You know people who he's like eating with tax collectors and sinners and not afraid to quote, unquote, get, get dirty with other people, you know. And so part of it is like coming back to Westminster, there's a lot of like phase one, you know, like, do you belong? Are you in our clan? And I think hopefully pastors and others who get trained there can grow to become more and more tolerant, accepting, connecting with others who are not totally like you, not being a jerk, you know, like in your character. So sorry, that was a bit of a tangent, but that I think that that's a thought that's just been ruminating in my head for for a little while.

38:56 - Speaker 3
So no, that was fabulous. I'm definitely keeping that in. That's such a good way to see what happens, like you learn something new, you think that's the absolute truth. And then you go out in the world like, oh wait, actually, you know there's some nuance. And then you get to oh, actually, as long as I believe in what I believe, nothing can scare me.

39:16 - Speaker 2
Why am I so angry at other?

39:17 - Speaker 3
people.

39:18 - Speaker 1
That's the evolution I went through Right, right and then at that final phase you're actually much more like for the sake of others. You know, like, how do you become for? How do you love your enemy? How do you like lay down your life for the sake of others? How do you love your enemy? How do you like lay down your life for the sake of others? How do you love across difference, all of these things that come from the Christian faith?

39:36
If you are only in this like tribal kind of you versus me, are you in or you're out Like there's no way that kind of mentality or heart or spirit is ever going to cross lots of dividing lines in order to like say, hey, I'm going to love on you, I'm going to serve you, I'm going to seek your good over mine. So, yeah, I think a lot about that because, again, planting a church, it's like how do you bake that into the culture of your church? How do you help adults and Christians move through that kind of a phasing in discipleship as well, through that kind of a phasing in discipleship as well, so that, like the church and the community really feels like like good news to our neighbors, who are like loving other people versus just taking care of ourselves and our tribe, you know so so that's a perfect question to ask you how are you trying to do that with your church?

40:32
by thinking about it like this I'm like, oh, that's a good idea.

40:38 - Speaker 3
How about let's start with one. Where is the location, why you picked it and your heart for this church plant?

40:48 - Speaker 1
Yeah, so my wife and I are planting a church in downtown Brooklyn, so that's sort of South Brooklyn kind of across the Brooklyn Bridge, across the Manhattan Bridge kind of that area which is the fastest growing neighborhood in all of New York City, the fastest changing neighborhood in all of New York City, the fastest growth of millennials actually, which I thought was fascinating and, interestingly, the fastest growing Asian population moving into a new neighborhood. Yeah, part of that is because the zoning laws in downtown Brooklyn changed like five or six years ago, and since then all these high rises are being built, all these new luxury apartment buildings. All these high rises are being built, all these new luxury apartment buildings. So downtown Brooklyn is kind of turned into much more of an extension of Manhattan. So you'll find a lot of people who are working in Manhattan but now are choosing to live in downtown Brooklyn.

42:18
No-transcript called in for the affordable housing lottery, which is fantastic, and we had a lot of our existing church members at Redeemer Downtown who lived in downtown Brooklyn. So it was like a missional move, it was a communal move for us, and then lots of different things sort of happened at our church at Redeemer Downtown, where it just made a lot of sense for us to plant a church there. There's a lot of missional energy already from members of our church who are living there. They've been asking about a church in downtown Brooklyn for many years now and, yeah, it feels like the borough and that neighborhood is changing so much and it just feels like a new church community that's helping to be for the good of Brooklyn could really, I think, be good for the neighborhood and be a part of a conversation that's rapidly changing. So, yeah, that's sort of the background of why and where a little bit.

43:22 - Speaker 3
So how do you go about thinking about a strategy to be like a blessing on the neighborhood, Because a lot of churches you know, yeah, they have these campuses and whatnot, and I think they start off trying to target the neighborhood.

43:32
But a lot of churches, you know, yeah, they have these campuses and whatnot, and I think they start off trying to target the neighborhood, but a lot of times they're just commuters, you know, so they never reach their neighborhood. And my whole thing is like, the reason why I'm such an avid believer in the local church is because I think everyone should be able to walk to church, like that's my hope and dream that if you can walk to church, that means you're in walking distance of, like, your community.

43:58
So, yeah, yeah how do you go about thinking about that?

44:01 - Speaker 1
yeah, yeah, great question. Um, obviously something I've been. I am currently thinking about a lot and it's still a work in progress, right, right. But I really go back to the founding DNA of Redeemer. I think about when Tim and Kathy Keller planted Redeemer in Manhattan in 1989. Like what were the animating principles back then? And they were always trying to plant a church to actually reach those who were living here right, to actually reach those who are living here right. Like a lot of the quote unquote, the special sauce or the DNA of Redeemer was Tim and Kathy's commitment to really understand the folks that were living here and understanding their spiritual hearts, their desires, their joys, their pains and then really trying to apply the gospel to that, like asking that question afresh and trusting that the Bible has, like wisdom and good news for those very questions. So everything that Redeemer did from the beginning was trying to answer that question and that's at the heart of our DNA.

45:09
Now, what happened over the past several decades was the Deemer got so big and Tim got so big that inevitably every institution becomes an institution, right, and there becomes structures and you kind of move away from that mission. There's like a lot of mission creep. That inevitably happens. But I fundamentally believe the core of who we are. We've always been animated by that, and so in downtown Brooklyn, I'm excited to kind of take that same seed and plant it in downtown Brooklyn and to do that thing again. Right, ask those questions, do what Redeemer's always done in seeking to be a church, not for ourselves but for the good of New York City and the people around us. Tim would tell all these stories about. He would have countless conversations with people secular, atheist, new Yorkers, working professionals who would never step foot in a church and just spend a lot of time listening, right, understanding, learning. Now, tim and Kathy had no thought or desire to make this into a huge mega church, but God did that right. But that was never their intention, and so I think about that a lot, because I think if our secret intention is to have a big church, then I think we will always make poor missional decisions and we will get away from asking those key questions and seeking to really fill those needs that God is revealing to us of how we can participate with him for redemption and renewal in downtown Brooklyn. In downtown Brooklyn, like, if we are motivated by like many church planters are motivated by butts in seats and hitting budget numbers to get sustainability. If that's our true goal, well then I can talk all of this missional rhetoric right, but at the end of the day, it will only be about how do I get more people to come, regardless of where they're coming from, right. So I think about that a lot as we begin and even in, like my fundraising model, I'm thinking about how do I really cast this vision and paint this picture so that we're not making, like poor missional decisions because we need budget or because we want a certain size church.

47:30
I think we're really trying to keep mission at the forefront, and so a lot of that starts with. We've just started doing prayer walks around the neighborhood and inviting church members to come join us, and when we announced the church plant, hundreds of people were so excited. But then, when we invite them to come and pray, it's like four people show up, right, true believers. Well, and it's kind of like I think we as leaders want to model. This is the most important thing that we could be doing right now. We want to just partner with God and just pray. We want to pray for people. We want to pray and walk around and ask God to give us eyes to see. Like God, where are you already at work? Like what's the hurt? Where are people mourning? Where's the hope that we could bring? How do we listen? Just become a humble conversation partner versus, like Redeemer, coming down and dropping a big satellite campus here and then taking over. You know so I think like we are trying to live that out personally and hoping that that kind of catches fire with people and we'll just kind of build it from there. You know so, unlike some other church plant models where it's like we're going to send out hundreds of people and you're going to have this fully baked service, I think we're really trying to kind of grow in a slower kind of a way in order to maintain and prioritize that missional core and that vision and not get off track from that, because otherwise I think we're just kicking the can down the road. You know, like I've I've sort of said that.

49:09
Um, coming full circle back to the immigrant church, I've I've told people that I think redeemer is like the korean immigrant church in that way, like 30 years ago the korean immigrant church was growing like crazy all over the United States because it was based on immigration patterns, right. So again, you're an immigrant that moves to the States. The first thing you're looking for is a church community, right, and there are these little enclaves of like immigrant communities centered around the church. But now, if you look at first generation Asian immigrant churches, they're dying off and they're all like grandmas and grandpas. Why? Well, because their model was predicated off of immigration patterns, right, and immigration patterns are virtually zero coming from Korea. So, similarly, redeemer, right now we have tons of new people coming every year, but when you really talk to them and you ask like, oh, how did you find us? It's always oh well, we know Tim Keller, which means any new Christian that moves into the city. We are like one of two or three churches that they're going to check out, right, which means that we just have this continued tailwind of existing Christian immigration. Now, 5, 10, 15 years from now, will those immigration patterns still be the case?

50:36
I don't think so, and so one of the big missional reasons of why we're wanting to plant this church is because we want to help the church at large, like reach again, unchurched and de-churched people, instead of just fighting for existing Christians who are coming into the mix and into the fold. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, right. Like Christians need a place to be discipled, to grow, to grow into a missional sort of disciple. But I think we're just kicking the can down the road if we just create churches for Christians. Right, and I think church plants are like innovative missional vehicles. You can try a bunch of new things, you can experiment, you can have very different factors and constituents and stakeholders who won't be so upset if you were changing music or children's ministry or outreach programs. So I'm really looking forward to being able to add to that conversation to help all of the churches in the Redeemer Network and hopefully other churches to like reach New Yorkers again you know, not just Christians who are moving to New York.

51:52 - Speaker 3
Yeah, I love that. I think something that's been changing my mind about church planting is even the word planting, because the model I see is more like a birth of like yeah, you can have similar DNA, but you should actually be a brand new thing, right? Because, like I see a lot of churches kind of just cloning themselves rather than saying, oh hey, these are the core values, but in your context, in your neighborhood, in your people, it's going to be different. So, like, go do different things and be a different church. And that's just what I hear you're saying and I love the fact that you're doing that.

52:30 - Speaker 1
Yeah, it must be different. Right Again, going back to that Alan Hirsch quote how do you best honor your grandfather? It's not by wearing his hat and trying on his clothes and trying to look like him. It's like have babies, your DNA is going to come out or his DNA is going to come out in a new living being thing for a different time and place, right? So now I'm fully on board with this stuff.

52:59
And then when I get to the nitty gritty, I find myself even kind of getting nitty gritty. I find myself even like kind of getting like forgetting that. Right. So it's like a constant reminder for my wife and I to really keep that at the forefront. And it's kind of going back to this idea of like God's in control I'm just like holding my hands wide open, like he can do with it whatever he wants and not to have a lot of preconceived notions of what that has to look like. Right? So that's like the exhilarating nature of planting a church. It's like scary in a lot of ways, but also really exciting if we do it that way and hold to that kind of a mission and a vision.

53:39 - Speaker 3
But that's why your core team is so vital that they're not just a bunch of yes people or just like fresh out of school, like oh, I don't know anything, I'm gonna do whatever you say. Like you want pushback, you want challenges, you want people with different experiences. Because, like I'm on this kick about, like I really think god wants consensus and anything we can't like agree on we should just table it, because the one thing we can always agree on is christ is lord and king, right, and if you can't agree on that, then I don't know how I could call you a brother or a sister. But, like there's just so many things, yeah, and even you know running this startup, there's actually like many different ways to get to the same goal. And once you realize that, then you don't really get caught up in the nitty-gritty, because the question always comes back to what was the goal? Was it accomplished?

54:28 - Speaker 1
yeah right, yeah, then you no longer have egos, because it's all about the mission yeah, dude, I've been, uh, I've been reading and listening to a lot of things on startups, right, which faithfully, obviously is. Uh, because to me, like a church plant is a startup, like that's the thinking that you have to have and I I think it's so. I think there are so many great parallels, I think it's super fascinating and, yeah, like, at the end of the day, like the mission trumps, right, and if it's truly a startup, then you're gonna try a whole bunch of different things to accomplish that mission. So I love the parallels to church planting and startups. Man, if you have good book recommendations, send them my way. I stop reading.

55:14 - Speaker 3
All my content is on YouTube. I say I am a student for YouTube University. Do you know? Y Combinator.

55:22 - Speaker 1
Y Combinator no.

55:23 - Speaker 3
You should YouTube them. Follow their channel and just consume everything they say, but change money and profits to faith, and then in that context it makes total sense, because in the business world the capital is like your lifeblood.

55:42 - Speaker 2
You have the capital you're going to die.

55:44 - Speaker 3
So that's kind of like trying to stay alive and they call it default alive or dead and to some degree like your um organization. Functionally, yeah, you need capital, right, but yeah, the church part is hard because now you're also dealing with people.

55:58
But those same principles apply when you understand, okay, we're not trying to get their money, but we're trying to get their trust right, or maybe that's a better way to say it like think of capital as trust and that's another kick that, like the lord's really helping me hone in on, is like it's a trust game and in a crowd, in a church or any you know self-contained population, it's an economy of just trust, right. So like, how are you earning it?

56:24 - Speaker 1
yeah, so I've had like so I've had spiritual directors, I've had coaches and counselors, and man, how much insecurity or shame and guilt kind of impacts you as a leader. And then you think you've really been dealing with it and you're like, oh, I see myself and I'm OK, I'm going to react differently. And then six months later, something else happens. And then you find yourself reacting the same way and I remember my coach was like you know, that's expected, because as you grow, your life is only getting more and more complex. And so you worked it out when you were here.

56:59
But you have to continue to work. This Like this is going to be with you for a lifetime. Right, your your insecurities about this, or your shame or your guilt or your traumas and your woundedness from this, you're just going to have to continue to work at it. Right, it's not like you just get over it one day and it never comes back. You have to continue to work at it because life is going to get complex and it might, you know, show you a different side of you again, which is kind of disheartening, because you're like no, just give me the pill to eat and just to be better.

57:33 - Speaker 3
I have a couple more questions. Okay, so COVID really shook things up for the church world, right, and I think it proved that a lot of churches were not ready, right? Is that in the back of your mind of like how can I build a resilient culture of discipleship so that, if the next pandemic comes, people won't be just wasting away at home and they'll know what to do? Or, like do you have a strategy for when that happens?

58:04 - Speaker 1
Yeah, again, the doctor of ministry that I'm doing is literally, it's on leading change and it's kind of trying to address the crisis of discipleship and how, basically, church leaders are not equipped for the task that is at hand, right In a rapidly changing world, in a gray zone, in a world of crisis after crisis that is bound to come, based on what our world network looks like now. Yeah, covid has certainly, I think, exposed the fact that we were not as discipled as we all thought we were, just because we were attending church or we were in a community group or we're a professing Christian. Right, like our character showed, right, what we really trust in, showed the kinds of lives we were living, really, I think, kind of showed. So I think about that COVID as a revealer. I think like, okay, how do we equip people for the next crisis and the crisis after that?

59:02
Right, whatever might really shake the foundations of our world, whatever might come down the pike, and I think, yeah, I think a lot of church leaders are rethinking and retooling. Just an hour and 15 minutes Sunday worship is not enough to disciple our people. Right To have like the character and spiritual formation that we need for this life if we're going to live a faithful life, like it's just not enough. So, yeah, I think about that a lot, but I also think about it in the way of it being an adaptive challenge, right? So I know that there's not going to be some technical solution like better preaching or you know, whatever that's going to fix it, and so part of it is signing up for the journey to continue to walk with your people, to be like a learner myself and to constantly be looking at my own formation and you know what's going on in me and then sort of sharing that journey with a congregation and seeking the same thing together, right, I think the old model of church is like I am the specialist that knows more than you, the guru that can teach you, so just follow me.

01:00:15
And I think, moving forward, it's like who was the COVID pandemic guru? You know who is going to be the George Floyd racial reconciliation guru, like none of us. Another crisis is going to come and so we just need to inhabit it together and learn together and seek Jesus in it. So super vague, basically saying I don't know. I don't know the answer. What does that look?

01:00:41 - Speaker 3
like, or maybe for you personally what did you learn that you thought is working, and then you realize it wasn't working, and so you had to change your mind about it?

01:00:54 - Speaker 1
So during the pandemic like literally like March and April I think it was April of 2020, our senior pastor stepped down or he took a leave of absence, right. So we're like one month into the pandemic and I was kind of like you know, the young buck hotshot kind of like be like, oh, we should do this, we should try this. Like come on, let's, you know, let's do these things. And when he stepped down, it was kind of like all right, david, like what do you want to do? Like let's go. And it was like Mike Tyson saying you know, everyone's got a plan. Until you get punched in the face Like that's, that's really what it felt like, because nothing you did, no bright idea, was ever going to work. It was really going to work, you know.

01:01:40
And then George Floyd happened and I felt like super ill-equipped to even speak into those kinds of things. And so now I'm like, oh, I'm not the leader meant to lead. I don't know how to lead during this kind of thing and the more pastors that you talk to in the world, that was like the same experience that everybody kind of had. That was like the same experience that everybody kind of had, you know. So, yeah, I've had lots of moments throughout the past couple of years like realizing, ok, again you haven't really led until you felt that fire and felt like that criticism or people yelling at you or being upset with you and so, yeah, that was certainly.

01:02:27
I think that was my early introduction into it, and so I think, as I think about leaving the church plant, I think you know I'm not going to have some magic bullet. That's also just going to work, you know. I think it's just like I think, if anything I've learned, this feedback loop in this cycle has to just continue to go. Like I have to keep listening to myself, to other people, I need to keep listening to God, you know, and like I don't know where this journey is going to take us. I don't know what it's exactly going to look like.

01:02:51
I don't know necessarily what our church community, if it's healthy and flourishing, what that's really going to look like, you know. But I think I know the things that are unchanging. You know we're going to be a community that's got to love one another really well, that's got to bring good news, hope and flourishing. That's like tied to God's word and his truth, seeking his grace, like those things are unchanging right. But it's like, how do you live into those things where it's like I'm seeing myself bear fruit personally and then therefore leading in a way that helps others to do that Right? So I don't know, man, you know, there's like I feel more convicted than ever about some things and then less convicted than ever about other things. You know, and hopefully those things mix in a way that God is leading us and it births something healthy and beautiful things mix in a way that God is leading us and it births something healthy and beautiful.

01:03:52 - Speaker 3
Yeah, as I get older, I just feel like God is refining me in a way where my understanding is a lot simpler than trying to construct a foolproof plan that is like future proof but really like yeah. No, there's just too many variables and of the joys of the Christian life and I forget this often. But a verse that's drilled into my mind is if my people will humble themselves and turn from their wicked ways and pray, I will heal their land, and I feel like that's something we need to get back to. So even you doing prayer walks, I think that's an amazing thing, because our first response as Christians should always be to pray first, right?

01:04:30
Yeah, because it's not our response that's important, it's God. How do you want me to respond to this? And we've grown up with too many methods and formulas and techniques. Rather than like no, in every moment of my life, like I can't be too sure this is what god wants especially for the complex stuff.

01:04:50 - Speaker 1
I think you bring up a good point and I think that's inherent in how we're starting, like again, um, it's not like the big, the big mothership dropping down with this like strategy. And here's the franchise model of like, here's the menu and here's what you're going to do, and it's just. I think that's where it's like starting much more from a humbler route and starting with prayer and saying God, we don't know what this community ultimately needs to look like, apart from what you are leading us to Right, the kinds of leaders you want us to be, the kind of heart that we want you to give to us, for your people here, you to give to us for your people here, and so that's kind of where it's like.

01:05:26
As a leader, I have to resist the temptation to have all the answers. I have to resist the temptation to say here's the strategy that's going to work, that's going to keep you safe, my friend. Only thing I can do is invite you into this time to pray with us and walk with us, and for some some people that resonates, for others it doesn't. Others are like what's your children's ministry strategy? What's your, what's your preaching calendar going to be? And I'm like, hey, great questions. You know I don't know, and I'm okay saying that and you know that that kind of again is like are we staying on mission for what the Lord wants to do in and through us?

01:06:07 - Speaker 3
staying on mission for what the Lord wants to do in and through us.

01:06:11 - Speaker 1
So how can people be following you on your journey, supporting you on Faithly. Yeah, so, through your help, started a Faithly group, which is also new to me. I think it's in beta testing. It's new, I think, to all of us and I think I'm still trying to figure out how to do it, I think, to all of us and I think I'm still trying to figure out how to do it.

01:06:38
But the thing that I think really encouraged me to start it is I want to be able to look back as well to see, oh, what was God doing in and through this, right through its humble beginnings? What was I praying for? Like how did we see God answer prayers right? And so in some ways it kind of feels like a cool way, sort of a public diary of kind of how God is leading. What are the things that I may be trying or hoping for? And then just inviting others to share in that journey, whether they're kind of just learning alongside us, praying for us or with us, or like they're a part of the church plant and they're going with us and they're adding their own bits of the story to it too.

01:07:11
So, uh, very much like this church plant, I the group. I don't know what it's going to look like. I don't have like a nine month strategy of like what we're going to be posting, but I think I just want to be. I want to be tracking with with what, what and where God is leading us and I want to just be able to share that with the faithly community. And if that can spark different prayers for other church planters or conversations right Like oh, we're planting a church, we've done this, have you thought about this? I think that would be great too. But I think we're just open to sharing our story with others and inviting others to come along with us.

01:07:47 - Speaker 3
Yeah, that's great. How can we be praying for you, your wife and the church plan?

01:07:55 - Speaker 1
Yeah, I think Principally for spiritual protection, like that's just really been kind of on our heart. People have sort of said like you're going to be tested, you and your wife, you'll be tested like nothing before, and so it's not really like the strategy stuff or the planning stuff or the people stuff that we're that worried about. I think it's not letting the enemy get a foothold, especially in our marriage, making margin for one another, and we're taking a deliberately slow ramp to launch this. So we're still probably about like 12 to 18 months out from a public worship service and so it feels manageable now. But I think with every week that goes by it's getting more and more and more complex. With every week that goes by it's getting more and more and more complex. And I just want to really guard our marriage, cause I I view her as like a primary partner in this and a co-planter, and so that's kind of been what we've been asking folks to, to pray for, at least for now.

01:09:00 - Speaker 3
All right. Well, this was great. Nice talking to a PCA brother.

01:09:06 - Speaker 1
Thanks, man. You're like the Joe Rogan of the PCA now.

01:09:12 - Speaker 3
Could be. It's like an association because I'm not officially PCA, but I get credit because of the Westman degree. Yeah, that's funny. Well, that's it for the podcast, guys.

01:09:27 - Speaker 2
Bye. Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories Podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey. The Faithly Stories Podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. The Faithly digital platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection, foster collaboration and promote growth within the church and ministry space. Remember to subscribe, rate and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you. Stay tuned for more uplifting tales from the front lines of ministry on the Faithly Podcast. Stay bold, stay faithful and never underestimate the power of your own story.