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Purpose Driven Boards - Jim Brown
Imagine attending an event for the first time and feeling an overwhelming sense of brotherhood, as if you'd known these people all your lif…
Oct. 28, 2024
Purpose Driven Boards - Jim Brown
Imagine attending an event for the first time and feeling an overwhelming sense of brotherhood, as if you'd known these people all your life. That's exactly what happened to our guest, Jim Brown, at a 30 for 30 event. In our latest episode of Faithly Stories Podcast, Jim takes us through his profound experiences and insights gained from his ministry work, where divine appointments play a pivotal role. Balancing personal challenges like back pain with his vision, Jim highlights the transformative power of friendship and affirmation, especially in ministry among men. His journey offers a unique look at the intersection of personal faith and professional consulting, as Jim works with both companies and churches to cultivate strong cultures and clear purposes.
We also tackle the complex topic of board governance within the church, an area where spiritual oversight and administrative responsibilities often collide. Jim shares his views on aligning church boards with scriptural principles while meeting societal demands for accountability. Our conversation explores the potential for power struggles when elder-led spiritual oversight and board-led administrative duties are not in harmony. Additionally, Jim shares compelling stories of cultural transformation in organizations, illustrating both the triumphs and potential pitfalls of such endeavors. As the episode concludes, Jim reflects on his personal journey of leadership transition and seeks wisdom for a seamless transition that empowers new leaders to thrive. Tune in for a deep dive into faith-driven leadership and governance that promises to enrich your understanding and inspire purposeful change.
(00:01) Faithly Stories Podcast
(07:24) Board Governance in the Church
(18:37) Transforming Board Governance Through Faith
Website - https://faithly.co
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/faithly.co
Jim Brown
https://faithly.co/profiles/jimbrown
Org Health
https://www.orghealthteam.com
Chapters
01:00 - Faithly Stories Podcast
07:24:00 - Board Governance in the Church
18:37:00 - Transforming Board Governance Through Faith
Transcript
00:01 - Speaker 1
Hi, my name is Jim Brown. I am a consultant, an author, a speaker and a passionate follower of Jesus Christ. I deeply love the local church and I have spent 30 years helping leaders of organizations, companies, corporations and non-profits and churches more effectively create culture and structure that maximizes what the organization can accomplish. And this is my Faithly Story.
00:32 - Speaker 2
Welcome to Faithly Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life. Join us as we delve into their challenges, moments of encouragement and answered prayers. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. Learn more at faithlyco. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired as we unveil the heart of faith through stories from the front lines of ministry. On the Faithly Stories podcast.
01:14 - Speaker 3
How many times have you been coming out to 30 for 30?
01:16 - Speaker 1
This is my very first time. No way, yeah. Great privilege, incredible experience.
01:21 - Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, oh, I'm shocked. I thought you'd be here more often.
01:25 - Speaker 1
And Adam's talked to me about it before, but no, just it never happened. Incredible experience, yeah, yeah, wow, I'm shocked. I thought you'd be here more often and Adam's talked to me about it before, but no, just it never happened. He might have been scared to ask me, but yay, I've really. I've got a lot out of my experience.
01:37 - Speaker 3
Yeah, so what's?
01:38 - Speaker 1
one big thing you got out of this my aim in life is to be in the place at the moment where God's using me, so, in a sense, to be settled that I'm fulfilling divine appointments. And yeah, I think that happened here in my opportunity to speak to bring what God's done in me and share that with leaders that are making a difference in the world. But a really cool thing for me was in the one-on-one conversations that happened sitting at lunch, sitting in the evening, whatever either they made great deposits in me or God used me to make great deposits in them, and that's what God does, right? I mean, he puts us together and invites us to be led by the Holy Spirit and make deposits in each other to minister to each other. What a privilege that is. I've experienced that.
02:45 - Speaker 3
It's the idea of cross-pollinating, but then when you get the information, you feel it here right. You mentioned something in your talk about what is one action you're going to take home. So, for you, after this, what's one action you're going to take home?
03:01 - Speaker 1
Yeah, so Bishop Bronner was talking about. We have to decide if we're going to increase our ability to manage pain or figure out how to reduce the pain, Because if we don't do that, we have to reduce the vision. We have to reduce the vision and, bluntly, right now, what I'm experiencing I don't mean this second, but at this stage of my life I'm struggling with a lot of back pain. So we were gathered in a circle on the beach praying this morning, which was lovely. I'm dying of back pain. Beach praying this morning, which was lovely. I'm dying of back pain and it's kind of like wait. It's difficult for me to endure the pain, but I don't want to miss what's happening in this moment. So I got to figure out how to manage that or reduce it, so that I can step even more into the vision that God has for me in my life which, by the way, is nothing to do with what I was expecting to get.
04:11
Like, not that I had particular. I'm expecting to get this, but, yeah, that's cool. Yay, I heard something from God that came from an angle that I never thought about.
04:25 - Speaker 3
I'm glad you said that. I think one thing I got out of is just this confirmation that, like a lot of the stuff I was learning, I was learning on my own right and I felt a little crazy because I was like wrestling with because you don't want to think everything you think of, even if it's through the word, it's like a divine revelation. You need confirmation and affirmation, right, yeah, and a lot of the talks just repeated everything I was learning and I was like, oh the lord, this is from the lord, um, and the second thing is just meeting a lot of brothers. Yes, um, it reminded me how important friendship is in ministry, especially with men, keeping in touch, just having fun and just learning from each other, and I haven't had that in the longest time and, like you said, my heart feels full going back home.
05:23 - Speaker 1
Yeah, there was a dynamic in this room that I mean really Adam's the only person that I've got history with, yeah, but only a few hours in I was feeling like these are all brothers. Yeah, there was a welcome, an embrace by everyone that, hey, we are in this together and you're one of us. Like a bunch of people in the room, they've been at five, six of these. This is my first time and I feel like I've got a whole bunch of friends.
06:05 - Speaker 3
Yes, yes, the adam dursall effect is very real, that's it all right, let's get into the spicy topic of boards and churches. Can you first explain, like what you do and um like where you're from sure?
06:21 - Speaker 1
yeah, I live in Canada, about an hour west of Toronto. We have an airport that lets me fly all over the place. And I do fly all over the place, literally working with leaders of companies mostly companies, either boards or executive teams helping them to be effective in their role to govern, to lead, so that there's clear purpose, clear accountability and strong culture for the organization. That's my assignment and I love that I get to do that in all kinds of contexts. I love that I get to do that in all kinds of contexts and, because I love the church, I look to find space to make room for that in my practice as well.
07:24 - Speaker 3
So the initial question I had meeting you and listening to your talk was one when I read scripture and I'm just going to repeat it for the podcast is that when I see the Old Testament, god elected the Levites and the elders and the structure. So it's not as hierarchical as we're used to, but in the church we have elders that were committed to studying the word and teaching the word, and the deacons were helping out. Um, the uh felt needs of the church. But now we live in a government structure where there's liabilities and so, uh, if you want to get, you mentioned, if you want to get incorporated, you needed a board, right. So could you kind of like go through the importance of having a board and the realities of that in our current day environment?
08:03 - Speaker 1
Okay, even though you don't read Scripture and see, and God declared you must have a board of directors. There are a whole lot of principles in Scripture that apply to what boards should be doing, what they should be like. Why do we care? Because we live in a society that demands that we have boards. That is the accepted structure to create accountabilities and protection for the people who don't have power right. So in a charity, people give their money and they have no more say in how that money's used. Somebody has to oversee that. Well, we live in an age, in a place in society, where the structure for that is a board of directors. So great, let's work with that. Let's understand the law. What do we have to do? Because the law says and then how do we bring in and overlay scriptural principles so that we are fulfilling the responsibility declared by the law in a way that meets the intention and principles, purpose that are declared in Scripture? I don't think they're in contrast at all actually I totally agree.
09:35 - Speaker 3
I think the Bible is written in a specific context, right and the spirit of the law is still there and applies and we need to adjust to how we are under the authority of the government we are in in the nation and then how to implement that. So my issue now is I see a lot of boards because from my background with the current American church, the board is just the elders that are like elected and stuff. But I also know other churches who have a separate board right Of like outside council people that do policy and all the administrative policy stuff and then the elders and the pastors they do more of the operational board stuff. So they kind of have like a split board. So can you kind of Talk about the differences or like what would be more ideal in a board?
10:26 - Speaker 1
Okay, so I sometimes joke that we can clarify the role of the board in two words direct and protect. And some churches, in a sense they've said this group is going to direct spiritual oversight. Where is God saying we should go? Great, the elders are the direct board and then there's the group that are more like deacons who are overseeing finances in property and making sure that there's policies that prevent this and that they're doing the protect piece, and it's valid. It can work quite reasonably Group that protects, directs and a group that protects. Others choose to bring those both together.
11:23
Here's some things that I see that are not working well when we separate them. It's like we think that you need to be spiritual to be an elder, but this is just worldly. So if you've got business experience, you could be on the board of directors. No, this is a spiritual enterprise. No, this is a spiritual enterprise. Those people should be just as mature spiritually as the elders are, but they need to bring an expertise about some things that these people that are really great at understanding theology and ministry, practical issues at the high level, might not be the same people that have skills to understand.
12:25
Well, what are some of the risks that we have to face in our human resources reality as because we've hired staff and these kinds of things. But, as I said, sometimes we can find that there are boards that do both. There isn't a wrong answer. If you do it in two separate groups, okay, make sure they're talking to each other. Make sure that the property finance body understands they are resourcing the ministry that is directed by the elders. They don't tell the elders what the direction can be or what the limits are. I think that the spiritual thing should be the highest level direction and sometimes there's power struggles when there's two different bodies.
13:21 - Speaker 3
So I'm glad you brought up the power struggle, because my struggle is in understanding at least how boards operate right now is that a lot of churches try to operate like a company, and I've mentioned before I think a company's purpose and mission is to bring value to shareholders, but at the end of the day it's just profits. They're trying to make money, but because they have that motivation, I understand why they operate as they do. But when you try to translate that into a church setting because the driven by prophets, but mainly more of spiritual perspective and I love what you said in your talk about like, who is the owner of the church? It's God. A lot of people think it's like, oh, it's the elders or the people. No, it's God down. So I don't know what kind of question I want to ask, but, like, for the current structures that I feel like is not working, how can they shift their focus back to a spiritual perspective?
14:17 - Speaker 1
of a board, and I think that there's more conflict on this than there needs to be, the church is not a corporation and it's not for profit.
14:31
I hate the term non-profit, by the way. Forget what we're not. How about it's for profit or it's for purpose? Well, the church is for purpose and the board of elders needs to figure out what the purpose is. There's a broad answer to that for all churches, but even more, we're expected to figure out what's God's assigned purpose to us as a local body, and the elders need to discern that. And then they need to ensure that all of our resources, the money that people give to us, but the time that people give to us, the gifts that they share with us I mean talent, not stuff all of that is directed at accomplishing the purpose. And if the board is focused on doing that, we are governing the church to ensure the church is effective. I think that that's completely appropriate. So, not a contrast, not a conflict.
15:45 - Speaker 3
What I'm hearing from you is I think a lot of churches first need to get back to who we are and identity as a church and how we're serving the local area. I love that answer. So how did you get into this whole consulting thing and how did you connect this to like church governance?
16:04 - Speaker 1
So 30 years ago I was working in a company that provided management training to leaders, management training to leaders and the board of that company. The chairman of the board chairwoman sat me down and said Jim, I'm hearing that you're talking about Jesus too much, too much to our staff, too much to our clients. You need to dial that back. And I said, well, lance, you need to dial that back. And I said, well, wow, I wasn't aware anyone was concerned about that, but thank you for letting me know that that's a concern. I walked out of that meeting and sat down with the CEO and said I'm just letting you know that I'm going to be leaving because I can't fulfill my life purpose.
16:58
Given what direction I was just given by the chair of the board and it's a kind of fun story because she said oh, what are you going to do? Well, I'll start a company, help leaders, use what I've learned. And she said really, you know what? I think I would be more interested in doing that with you than staying here. So we started planning how we would leave together and there was another person who was just being brought on to the advisory board of the organization and Kathy, the CEO said just so you know, I will be leaving in the next few months, so don't join thinking you're coming to work with me. Oh, what are you doing? And she explained what our plans are. He said, really, I was just considering an invitation to be a CEO of another company, but that sounds way more interesting. So the three of us decided to start this business together.
18:09 - Speaker 3
Oh, wow.
18:10 - Speaker 1
And we asked ourselves what does our history, experience give us? Hey, we've all been executives reporting to a board. We've all worked as leaders and chairs of boards and most of our professional frustrations in life have been related to boards. Who's helping boards? That's what we should do, and related to boards.
18:36 - Speaker 2
Who's helping boards?
18:36 - Speaker 1
That's what we should do. So, yeah, we decided to be about helping boards of directors, which was very naive. By the way, People didn't know what the word governance meant 30 years ago.
18:51 - Speaker 3
You're too early.
18:51 - Speaker 1
It was an uphill climb for a while, but then Enron and WorldCom disasters happened and the whole mindset shifted so that boards realized they shouldn't avoid consultants. They should prove to their investors and stakeholders they're going to work at being better board members by getting help from consultants. And things went up from there.
19:19 - Speaker 3
Wow, that's such an amazing story. It's like out of a unknown kind of unsettled opportunity, a perfect storm happened. And then, based on all your experiences, there was this need, but it wasn't until years later that there was a great, great need that, like you, flourish and it's just. I see god in all that.
19:40 - Speaker 1
So that's amazing and we've all three of us were committed believers, and we absolutely saw god in that too yeah.
19:48 - Speaker 3
So what is one case study of you guys coming in and having success? Like not getting into the nitty-gritty details of general yeah, um, there's so many good stories just one, because I'm going to ask you about a bad one as contrast, um okay, this.
20:11 - Speaker 1
This is more about the work with executive teams, if that's okay. We got invited to work with a Canadian company that is part of a global organization and they were the lowest performing, worst performing division in the world and they'd basically been told if you don't turn this around, we are closing the plant. The 1,700 people that work here will be laid off. You've got 12 months. So we were invited in to help them with this and we worked through changing the culture from the boss is the power person and everybody's supposed to do what they say to you know, the people on the floor, the people doing the work, understand the job more than anyone else. The boss's role is to create a culture that makes space for those people to use their talent and bring their best ideas and make the company as great as it can be.
21:24
And within six months. This is just so exciting to me. Within six months, they went from being the worst performing company to the best performing out of their global enterprise, which, of course, caused a whole bunch of questions from Germany, where the head office was, and the next thing we knew I was working in Belgium with the plant there, and Singapore, because, hey, if this works. We want the whole company to be like this. That was a beautiful story.
22:00 - Speaker 3
You had a good name, a good reputation. Yes, yes.
22:06 - Speaker 1
Here's a heartbreaking story. We were invited to help a organization whose board was just in a disaster, believe it or not. By the way, in the early days I got hired to go and work with boards that were in such a mess that they were suing each other and I literally would stand between board members throwing fists at each other. There can be a lot of dysfunction on boards. So this company. It wasn't that kind of dysfunction, but they were not effective at all. About a 12-month period we transformed them to be amazingly effective in beautifully separating the role of the board from the role of management, which empowered management. Everybody was feeling better about the job that they had.
22:59
But here's a pattern we noticed is a risk. A board goes from being terrible to great. They reinforce greatness for a while, then they start to think that they've got this covered and they take it for granted. And then you know, a new person gets elected, a new person, and about five, six years down the road, most of the people who were on the board are not on the board any longer. And somebody says why are we doing this stupid stuff this way? I've always done it that way. And they go from the ditch to the mountain to the ditch in about a seven-year period. That's so heartbreaking.
23:43 - Speaker 3
Yeah, that's a warning to a lot of people. I have one last question. How can we be praying for you and your family?
23:53 - Speaker 1
Wow, I'm so fortunate to have a wife that believes in my assignment so she doesn't worry when I'm traveling. And now we're at a stage of life where if I'm going somewhere that she thinks would be cool, she comes with me. So that's great. Family is good. But I'm in a process of transitioning leadership in my business. Right now I want to slow down and I want all of the great stuff God's done in our company to continue. So, yeah, my request would be prayer for not just wisdom about transition, because I've worked with lots of companies transitioning. I've got knowledge, but making it happen in my own business, in my own life that's I shared with somebody earlier today. I can be anointed to teach something, but I've got to just live it out like everybody else. It's work and, yeah, if people would pray that that transition can be made in a healthy way, that the leaders that are picking up the torch will feel fully empowered and trusted to bring their flavor to the business and I can release that fully, that would be beautiful.
25:27 - Speaker 3
Amen. Well, it was great meeting you, jim. This was a pleasure, wonderful to work with you. Yeah, bless you. That's it for the podcast. Be beautiful.
25:29 - Speaker 1
Amen. Well, it's great meeting you, Jim. This was a pleasure.
25:30 - Speaker 3
Wonderful to work with you. Yeah, bless you. That's it for the podcast guys, bye.
25:33 - Speaker 2
Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. The Faithly digital platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection, foster collaboration and promote growth within the church and ministry space. Remember to subscribe, rate and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you. Stay tuned for more uplifting tales from the front lines of ministry on the Faithly podcast. Stay bold, stay faithful and never underestimate the power of your own story.
Hi, my name is Jim Brown. I am a consultant, an author, a speaker and a passionate follower of Jesus Christ. I deeply love the local church and I have spent 30 years helping leaders of organizations, companies, corporations and non-profits and churches more effectively create culture and structure that maximizes what the organization can accomplish. And this is my Faithly Story.
00:32 - Speaker 2
Welcome to Faithly Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life. Join us as we delve into their challenges, moments of encouragement and answered prayers. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. Learn more at faithlyco. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired as we unveil the heart of faith through stories from the front lines of ministry. On the Faithly Stories podcast.
01:14 - Speaker 3
How many times have you been coming out to 30 for 30?
01:16 - Speaker 1
This is my very first time. No way, yeah. Great privilege, incredible experience.
01:21 - Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, oh, I'm shocked. I thought you'd be here more often.
01:25 - Speaker 1
And Adam's talked to me about it before, but no, just it never happened. Incredible experience, yeah, yeah, wow, I'm shocked. I thought you'd be here more often and Adam's talked to me about it before, but no, just it never happened. He might have been scared to ask me, but yay, I've really. I've got a lot out of my experience.
01:37 - Speaker 3
Yeah, so what's?
01:38 - Speaker 1
one big thing you got out of this my aim in life is to be in the place at the moment where God's using me, so, in a sense, to be settled that I'm fulfilling divine appointments. And yeah, I think that happened here in my opportunity to speak to bring what God's done in me and share that with leaders that are making a difference in the world. But a really cool thing for me was in the one-on-one conversations that happened sitting at lunch, sitting in the evening, whatever either they made great deposits in me or God used me to make great deposits in them, and that's what God does, right? I mean, he puts us together and invites us to be led by the Holy Spirit and make deposits in each other to minister to each other. What a privilege that is. I've experienced that.
02:45 - Speaker 3
It's the idea of cross-pollinating, but then when you get the information, you feel it here right. You mentioned something in your talk about what is one action you're going to take home. So, for you, after this, what's one action you're going to take home?
03:01 - Speaker 1
Yeah, so Bishop Bronner was talking about. We have to decide if we're going to increase our ability to manage pain or figure out how to reduce the pain, Because if we don't do that, we have to reduce the vision. We have to reduce the vision and, bluntly, right now, what I'm experiencing I don't mean this second, but at this stage of my life I'm struggling with a lot of back pain. So we were gathered in a circle on the beach praying this morning, which was lovely. I'm dying of back pain. Beach praying this morning, which was lovely. I'm dying of back pain and it's kind of like wait. It's difficult for me to endure the pain, but I don't want to miss what's happening in this moment. So I got to figure out how to manage that or reduce it, so that I can step even more into the vision that God has for me in my life which, by the way, is nothing to do with what I was expecting to get.
04:11
Like, not that I had particular. I'm expecting to get this, but, yeah, that's cool. Yay, I heard something from God that came from an angle that I never thought about.
04:25 - Speaker 3
I'm glad you said that. I think one thing I got out of is just this confirmation that, like a lot of the stuff I was learning, I was learning on my own right and I felt a little crazy because I was like wrestling with because you don't want to think everything you think of, even if it's through the word, it's like a divine revelation. You need confirmation and affirmation, right, yeah, and a lot of the talks just repeated everything I was learning and I was like, oh the lord, this is from the lord, um, and the second thing is just meeting a lot of brothers. Yes, um, it reminded me how important friendship is in ministry, especially with men, keeping in touch, just having fun and just learning from each other, and I haven't had that in the longest time and, like you said, my heart feels full going back home.
05:23 - Speaker 1
Yeah, there was a dynamic in this room that I mean really Adam's the only person that I've got history with, yeah, but only a few hours in I was feeling like these are all brothers. Yeah, there was a welcome, an embrace by everyone that, hey, we are in this together and you're one of us. Like a bunch of people in the room, they've been at five, six of these. This is my first time and I feel like I've got a whole bunch of friends.
06:05 - Speaker 3
Yes, yes, the adam dursall effect is very real, that's it all right, let's get into the spicy topic of boards and churches. Can you first explain, like what you do and um like where you're from sure?
06:21 - Speaker 1
yeah, I live in Canada, about an hour west of Toronto. We have an airport that lets me fly all over the place. And I do fly all over the place, literally working with leaders of companies mostly companies, either boards or executive teams helping them to be effective in their role to govern, to lead, so that there's clear purpose, clear accountability and strong culture for the organization. That's my assignment and I love that I get to do that in all kinds of contexts. I love that I get to do that in all kinds of contexts and, because I love the church, I look to find space to make room for that in my practice as well.
07:24 - Speaker 3
So the initial question I had meeting you and listening to your talk was one when I read scripture and I'm just going to repeat it for the podcast is that when I see the Old Testament, god elected the Levites and the elders and the structure. So it's not as hierarchical as we're used to, but in the church we have elders that were committed to studying the word and teaching the word, and the deacons were helping out. Um, the uh felt needs of the church. But now we live in a government structure where there's liabilities and so, uh, if you want to get, you mentioned, if you want to get incorporated, you needed a board, right. So could you kind of like go through the importance of having a board and the realities of that in our current day environment?
08:03 - Speaker 1
Okay, even though you don't read Scripture and see, and God declared you must have a board of directors. There are a whole lot of principles in Scripture that apply to what boards should be doing, what they should be like. Why do we care? Because we live in a society that demands that we have boards. That is the accepted structure to create accountabilities and protection for the people who don't have power right. So in a charity, people give their money and they have no more say in how that money's used. Somebody has to oversee that. Well, we live in an age, in a place in society, where the structure for that is a board of directors. So great, let's work with that. Let's understand the law. What do we have to do? Because the law says and then how do we bring in and overlay scriptural principles so that we are fulfilling the responsibility declared by the law in a way that meets the intention and principles, purpose that are declared in Scripture? I don't think they're in contrast at all actually I totally agree.
09:35 - Speaker 3
I think the Bible is written in a specific context, right and the spirit of the law is still there and applies and we need to adjust to how we are under the authority of the government we are in in the nation and then how to implement that. So my issue now is I see a lot of boards because from my background with the current American church, the board is just the elders that are like elected and stuff. But I also know other churches who have a separate board right Of like outside council people that do policy and all the administrative policy stuff and then the elders and the pastors they do more of the operational board stuff. So they kind of have like a split board. So can you kind of Talk about the differences or like what would be more ideal in a board?
10:26 - Speaker 1
Okay, so I sometimes joke that we can clarify the role of the board in two words direct and protect. And some churches, in a sense they've said this group is going to direct spiritual oversight. Where is God saying we should go? Great, the elders are the direct board and then there's the group that are more like deacons who are overseeing finances in property and making sure that there's policies that prevent this and that they're doing the protect piece, and it's valid. It can work quite reasonably Group that protects, directs and a group that protects. Others choose to bring those both together.
11:23
Here's some things that I see that are not working well when we separate them. It's like we think that you need to be spiritual to be an elder, but this is just worldly. So if you've got business experience, you could be on the board of directors. No, this is a spiritual enterprise. No, this is a spiritual enterprise. Those people should be just as mature spiritually as the elders are, but they need to bring an expertise about some things that these people that are really great at understanding theology and ministry, practical issues at the high level, might not be the same people that have skills to understand.
12:25
Well, what are some of the risks that we have to face in our human resources reality as because we've hired staff and these kinds of things. But, as I said, sometimes we can find that there are boards that do both. There isn't a wrong answer. If you do it in two separate groups, okay, make sure they're talking to each other. Make sure that the property finance body understands they are resourcing the ministry that is directed by the elders. They don't tell the elders what the direction can be or what the limits are. I think that the spiritual thing should be the highest level direction and sometimes there's power struggles when there's two different bodies.
13:21 - Speaker 3
So I'm glad you brought up the power struggle, because my struggle is in understanding at least how boards operate right now is that a lot of churches try to operate like a company, and I've mentioned before I think a company's purpose and mission is to bring value to shareholders, but at the end of the day it's just profits. They're trying to make money, but because they have that motivation, I understand why they operate as they do. But when you try to translate that into a church setting because the driven by prophets, but mainly more of spiritual perspective and I love what you said in your talk about like, who is the owner of the church? It's God. A lot of people think it's like, oh, it's the elders or the people. No, it's God down. So I don't know what kind of question I want to ask, but, like, for the current structures that I feel like is not working, how can they shift their focus back to a spiritual perspective?
14:17 - Speaker 1
of a board, and I think that there's more conflict on this than there needs to be, the church is not a corporation and it's not for profit.
14:31
I hate the term non-profit, by the way. Forget what we're not. How about it's for profit or it's for purpose? Well, the church is for purpose and the board of elders needs to figure out what the purpose is. There's a broad answer to that for all churches, but even more, we're expected to figure out what's God's assigned purpose to us as a local body, and the elders need to discern that. And then they need to ensure that all of our resources, the money that people give to us, but the time that people give to us, the gifts that they share with us I mean talent, not stuff all of that is directed at accomplishing the purpose. And if the board is focused on doing that, we are governing the church to ensure the church is effective. I think that that's completely appropriate. So, not a contrast, not a conflict.
15:45 - Speaker 3
What I'm hearing from you is I think a lot of churches first need to get back to who we are and identity as a church and how we're serving the local area. I love that answer. So how did you get into this whole consulting thing and how did you connect this to like church governance?
16:04 - Speaker 1
So 30 years ago I was working in a company that provided management training to leaders, management training to leaders and the board of that company. The chairman of the board chairwoman sat me down and said Jim, I'm hearing that you're talking about Jesus too much, too much to our staff, too much to our clients. You need to dial that back. And I said, well, lance, you need to dial that back. And I said, well, wow, I wasn't aware anyone was concerned about that, but thank you for letting me know that that's a concern. I walked out of that meeting and sat down with the CEO and said I'm just letting you know that I'm going to be leaving because I can't fulfill my life purpose.
16:58
Given what direction I was just given by the chair of the board and it's a kind of fun story because she said oh, what are you going to do? Well, I'll start a company, help leaders, use what I've learned. And she said really, you know what? I think I would be more interested in doing that with you than staying here. So we started planning how we would leave together and there was another person who was just being brought on to the advisory board of the organization and Kathy, the CEO said just so you know, I will be leaving in the next few months, so don't join thinking you're coming to work with me. Oh, what are you doing? And she explained what our plans are. He said, really, I was just considering an invitation to be a CEO of another company, but that sounds way more interesting. So the three of us decided to start this business together.
18:09 - Speaker 3
Oh, wow.
18:10 - Speaker 1
And we asked ourselves what does our history, experience give us? Hey, we've all been executives reporting to a board. We've all worked as leaders and chairs of boards and most of our professional frustrations in life have been related to boards. Who's helping boards? That's what we should do, and related to boards.
18:36 - Speaker 2
Who's helping boards?
18:36 - Speaker 1
That's what we should do. So, yeah, we decided to be about helping boards of directors, which was very naive. By the way, People didn't know what the word governance meant 30 years ago.
18:51 - Speaker 3
You're too early.
18:51 - Speaker 1
It was an uphill climb for a while, but then Enron and WorldCom disasters happened and the whole mindset shifted so that boards realized they shouldn't avoid consultants. They should prove to their investors and stakeholders they're going to work at being better board members by getting help from consultants. And things went up from there.
19:19 - Speaker 3
Wow, that's such an amazing story. It's like out of a unknown kind of unsettled opportunity, a perfect storm happened. And then, based on all your experiences, there was this need, but it wasn't until years later that there was a great, great need that, like you, flourish and it's just. I see god in all that.
19:40 - Speaker 1
So that's amazing and we've all three of us were committed believers, and we absolutely saw god in that too yeah.
19:48 - Speaker 3
So what is one case study of you guys coming in and having success? Like not getting into the nitty-gritty details of general yeah, um, there's so many good stories just one, because I'm going to ask you about a bad one as contrast, um okay, this.
20:11 - Speaker 1
This is more about the work with executive teams, if that's okay. We got invited to work with a Canadian company that is part of a global organization and they were the lowest performing, worst performing division in the world and they'd basically been told if you don't turn this around, we are closing the plant. The 1,700 people that work here will be laid off. You've got 12 months. So we were invited in to help them with this and we worked through changing the culture from the boss is the power person and everybody's supposed to do what they say to you know, the people on the floor, the people doing the work, understand the job more than anyone else. The boss's role is to create a culture that makes space for those people to use their talent and bring their best ideas and make the company as great as it can be.
21:24
And within six months. This is just so exciting to me. Within six months, they went from being the worst performing company to the best performing out of their global enterprise, which, of course, caused a whole bunch of questions from Germany, where the head office was, and the next thing we knew I was working in Belgium with the plant there, and Singapore, because, hey, if this works. We want the whole company to be like this. That was a beautiful story.
22:00 - Speaker 3
You had a good name, a good reputation. Yes, yes.
22:06 - Speaker 1
Here's a heartbreaking story. We were invited to help a organization whose board was just in a disaster, believe it or not. By the way, in the early days I got hired to go and work with boards that were in such a mess that they were suing each other and I literally would stand between board members throwing fists at each other. There can be a lot of dysfunction on boards. So this company. It wasn't that kind of dysfunction, but they were not effective at all. About a 12-month period we transformed them to be amazingly effective in beautifully separating the role of the board from the role of management, which empowered management. Everybody was feeling better about the job that they had.
22:59
But here's a pattern we noticed is a risk. A board goes from being terrible to great. They reinforce greatness for a while, then they start to think that they've got this covered and they take it for granted. And then you know, a new person gets elected, a new person, and about five, six years down the road, most of the people who were on the board are not on the board any longer. And somebody says why are we doing this stupid stuff this way? I've always done it that way. And they go from the ditch to the mountain to the ditch in about a seven-year period. That's so heartbreaking.
23:43 - Speaker 3
Yeah, that's a warning to a lot of people. I have one last question. How can we be praying for you and your family?
23:53 - Speaker 1
Wow, I'm so fortunate to have a wife that believes in my assignment so she doesn't worry when I'm traveling. And now we're at a stage of life where if I'm going somewhere that she thinks would be cool, she comes with me. So that's great. Family is good. But I'm in a process of transitioning leadership in my business. Right now I want to slow down and I want all of the great stuff God's done in our company to continue. So, yeah, my request would be prayer for not just wisdom about transition, because I've worked with lots of companies transitioning. I've got knowledge, but making it happen in my own business, in my own life that's I shared with somebody earlier today. I can be anointed to teach something, but I've got to just live it out like everybody else. It's work and, yeah, if people would pray that that transition can be made in a healthy way, that the leaders that are picking up the torch will feel fully empowered and trusted to bring their flavor to the business and I can release that fully, that would be beautiful.
25:27 - Speaker 3
Amen. Well, it was great meeting you, jim. This was a pleasure, wonderful to work with you. Yeah, bless you. That's it for the podcast. Be beautiful.
25:29 - Speaker 1
Amen. Well, it's great meeting you, Jim. This was a pleasure.
25:30 - Speaker 3
Wonderful to work with you. Yeah, bless you. That's it for the podcast guys, bye.
25:33 - Speaker 2
Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. The Faithly digital platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection, foster collaboration and promote growth within the church and ministry space. Remember to subscribe, rate and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you. Stay tuned for more uplifting tales from the front lines of ministry on the Faithly podcast. Stay bold, stay faithful and never underestimate the power of your own story.
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