Real Happy - Mike Hayes and Dr. Jeffrey Garner | Faithly Stories

00:01 - Speaker 1 I remember the moment that I was like I need you. In the same breath of that acknowledgement, in that vulnerable admission of grief and sorrow was the consolation of heaven. 00:13 - Speaker 2 The declaration of the Father. This is my beloved Son and the miracle of that statement is Jesus had not even preached his first sermon, but he was the Son of God and the Father was pleased with him and loved him and was happy with him. 00:30 - Speaker 3 Welcome to Faithly Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys, through their ministry work and everyday life Brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders. Learn more at faithly.co. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired on the Faithly Stories podcast. 00:58 - Speaker 4 Mike Hayes and Dr Jeffrey Garner. Welcome to the Faithly Stories podcast. It's a real privilege to have you here. 01:06 - Speaker 1 Thank you. Thank you, Alicia. 01:16 - Speaker 4 Well, so I counted, and between the two of you, I believe you have over 75 years of ministry experience. You've pastored, you've mentored, you've advised your authors. You're both in Texas now, but your experience transcends geography, Jeff, like you ministered, for example, in San Francisco for many, many years. You're great friends, and now you're co-authors of a very intriguing new book called Real Happy Jesus's Surprising Path to Genuine Joy. And if I've gotten all that right, maybe we can jump right into the heart of it. So far, so good. 01:54 - Speaker 1 I didn't realize we've had 75 years of ministry betwixt us, but I'll take it. 02:02 - Speaker 2 I'm going straight to the nursing home from here. 02:04 - Speaker 4 I'm so sorry guys. I don't mean to make you feel old here. 02:07 - Speaker 2 I'm so sorry, guys, I don't mean to make you feel old, but I did want to highlight that I don't. Here's the miracle I am old, but I don't feel old Good, I love it. 02:16 - Speaker 4 Well, maybe at the end we can talk about your secrets to youth and energy and all of that. And I actually have a feeling some of it's going to be found right in the heart of your book Youth and energy and all of that. And I actually have a feeling some of it's going to be found right in the heart of your book. So you guys tackle a very common misperception, which is that happy is passive, that it's this state of being you can kind of stumble into. You write that it is a climb, that it's intentional, that it's difficult and it's to be done. 02:43 - Speaker 2 With God have you found that readers have been surprised to read this. I want to, and I'm going to defer to Jeff here in just a moment, because I appreciate you jumping in here with us, Alicia, or us with you. Thank you for having us on your podcast first of all, and I'd like for us to talk a little bit about why we studied carefully our title and our subtitle and what is surprising about what we learned about happiness, because the subtitle says Jesus Surprising. There's a surprise involved. You just mentioned one of them is that you know, happiness is not as easy as just rolling off a log. It is practiced, it is intentional, it is everybody desires it, but not everybody's getting it. 03:39 And we found some wonderful breakthrough surprises. And the first one I'm going to lob you a softball, Jeff, but the first surprise starts with the most obvious, and that is, Alicia, that most of the world and this is a standard across all religions and pursuits of God are not convinced or have any idea that God wants them to be happy. In fact, most people's concept is God is frustrated with me, frustrated with every making man, and we're trying to appease him into some sense of acceptability because he's not pleased with any of us. And happiness isn't even in the equation. A few years ago I would not have put happy and God in the same sentence. I would have put holy, and then I'm trying to be that, but I would not have put happy. So that's why we inserted the word surprising path, because it has some real discoveries along the way. 04:55 - Speaker 1 I guess this is where I get to jump in. You know, Alicia, I think you mentioned the kind of the uphill climb and I think for both Mike and I, you know, this was Mike's kind of insight revelation when he was in Israel and then he shared it with me and I took more of the kind of theological jumping into it and researching it part and both of us had this perfect marriage of his experience, his spiritual kind of awakening to it, and then my journey through, you know, unpacking the scriptures, and I think the climb part for me was when I was reading about Jesus going up on the mountain and his disciples making that ascent, and I was juxtaposing that with Moses going up the mountain at Sinai and his followers would not make the ascent, they wouldn't climb it, they were too afraid, they were scared. There was the mountain trembled and shook, the earthquake, there was the cloud and the lightning and the thunder, and so they waited for Moses to come back down from the mountain and they stood afar off. But when Jesus makes that ascent up, there is something compelling. Maybe it's the fact that he models it so well, maybe it's the fact that they long to be with God and then, when they get up there, they hear this teaching. That is shocking. It's not. 06:28 And this is the surprising part, I think you know we're conditioned by reading what Moses says, the Decalogue, the 10 sayings, the 10 Logos words. We're thinking here's gonna be thou shalt, thou shalt not, but we're going to get Jesus's. You know, take on the 10 rules. And what we get is not just blessings, not just blessed are, but these makarios statements of happy are. And it's absolutely shocking. 07:06 Like this is his, you know, inaugural speech. This is the State of the Union address. This is the platform of what he's when he's bringing the gospel, the good news. He starts it with eight powerful statements of happiness and there's the first, I think, shocking part. 07:27 So you have all of these things that we're not anticipating Followers coming up the hill that start off with just from what we could tell, at least if we're going from Matthew 4 to Matthew 5, we start off with four followers and by the time we get to the end of this speech, the end of this sermon on the mount and all these happy statements, we've moved from four followers to a whole mountain full of a multitude of people that have made their way up, and I think this is the beautiful thing of joy. Holiness can scare us off because we're not good enough, but when we discover that God has happiness for us, that God is happy and wants to give us joy, give us happiness. I think there is this attraction, there's this pull in, because it's part of the human dilemma. We're born crying, we die crying and in the middle of that, God is offering us laughter, offering us something worth living for, a joy, a peace, a happiness, literally. 08:36 - Speaker 2 And so. 08:36 - Speaker 1 I think that for me is the shock and the ascent is not so much the struggle as much as it is the attraction to be with God. 08:47 - Speaker 4 I love that so beautiful. Thank you, Jeff. Now remind us what does beatitude mean? Because I think for many of us that word is such a common word in our Christian vocabulary we forget about. It actually has a meaning and it speaks to what you're writing about. 09:05 - Speaker 1 Mike, do you want to take that or do you want me to? 09:08 - Speaker 2 Sure, Jeff. No, go ahead with it, Jeff. But I wanted to mention Alicia, that numbers are important to me. I always love to see there's so many levels of revelation that come in Scripture and with what Jeff was just sharing, it's interesting to me that there were 10 commandments given to Moses. 10 is the number in Scripture for redemption. When there is a 10, there is a redemption, 9. And then in the New Testament we read Jesus. Comparative to that, he went up on a mountain, as Moses did, but he gives eight declarations of how to be happy. And eight is the number for new beginnings. So 10 is like do these 10 and I'll redeem you. For now, Eight is like let me give you a brand new beginning for all of that. And beatitude, of course, is a word that's not specifically found in the Bible, but it means blessing. It's a form of saying to bless. Jeff, you want to add to that? 10:10 - Speaker 1 Yeah, it comes from the Latin term beatus, which can mean blessing, fortunate or happy, and so there is that connection. I think it's we lose it. Of course I always thought as a kid it was the be attitudes, like be blessed, be good. So it was like a state of being attitude that we were supposed to have. But it is more connected to blessing and more connected to fortunate. But that's the Latin term. We know that. The Greek term makarios means, if you're in Greece and you use the word, it means blissful, like it's not just a generic sense of happiness or joy. There's a different word for joy, there's a different word for blessing and there's a different word for happy and Makarios is that blissful that you know, kind of gregarious and loud happiness. 11:11 - Speaker 4 Now, one of the things that, for me, made your book so readable and so absorbable is your crisscrossing through places in time we're in the Old Testament, we're in Jesus's time, we're in San Francisco with Jeff and we're in Israel with Mike. Now Jeff you alluded to. Well, the spark for this book was really a moment, an experience that Mike had in Israel. Mike, can you talk a little bit about what sparked this book? 11:39 - Speaker 2 Sure, I had been there a number of times, Alicia and one of my favorites stopped. I had been there a number of times, Alicia and one of my favorites stopped. They kind of I wouldn't say ruined it. But it's changed now. Years ago the Mount of Beatitudes was just bare, with big boulders, and looked just like it did when Jesus was there center there and some seating areas and kind of a rotunda and some stuff to make it more comfortable for people to sit there and look out over the Sea of Galilee. I liked it in its original form actually better, and there was a little Arab guy there that always had a fresh orange juice squeezer. As you ascended the hill you could buy a cup of fresh squeezed orange juice. That was delicious and you were going to make some memories. So I had taught on the Beatitudes that day and I added one, Alicia, and we added it in the book. 12:36 I call it the personal Beatitude because, as you know, by reading the book, when Jesus had taught the eight, then the meeting was over and time was passing and John the Baptist was in prison in town and he sent some of his disciples and asked Jesus if he's the one we're looking for, do we look for another? The one we're looking for, do we look for another? And what came to me is you know, as the forerunner of Jesus, no one knew better than John that Jesus was the one they were looking for. But this was a man that was hurt. He was even offended here, he was in prison. Jesus is drawing crowds and doing miracles and John is in a dungeon. So he says ask him, are you the one we look for or do we look for another? And Jesus said well, tell him what you saw, all of the blessed miracles you saw, and all the people. And they said okay. So they were heading back to town to give John that message by speaking through the barred windows of his dungeon cell. And before they got out of earshot, jesus said by the way, tell John this blessed is he that's not offended in me. So it was a personal beatitude sent to John and it's about offense, sent to John and it's about offense. And so I taught that a little bit that day. But there was an unbelievable tenderness and special presence there on the hill that day and I had about maybe a hundred people with us and it was in the spring and the poppies were blooming everywhere and everyone was just kind of sitting on one of the boulders where they'd heard the teaching, and me along with them were just kind of in a repose and I was weeping. Something special was there and that's where I felt the instruction in my heart write a book about this. 14:41 The world needs to know about my kind of happiness and I had never thought about writing a book about this. The world needs to know about my kind of happiness and I had never thought about writing a book about happiness because in fact, the miracle was happening in me, because, as I hope I well conveyed in the book. You know I was in ministry Alicia, but I wasn't really happy, not this kind of happy. My happy was typical, it was conditional. If everything was right with the world, then I could be happy. If anything was out of place or someone was struggling or I had an issue or something coming up that I wasn't looking forward to, it affected my happiness. And, deeper than that, my performance somehow was tied to my happiness. If I was doing a lot of good and if I was seeing a lot of success and a lot of people were getting their lives changed and my sermons were really touching people's heart and our church was growing, and on and on and on. I had these benchmarks in my mind that if I was hitting all of those then I should be able to enjoy a smile. But the reality is that's not what real happiness is about. 15:57 The declaration of the Father over a baptism service of His Son, over a baptism service of his son. This is my beloved son and I'm really pleased with him. And the miracle of that statement is Jesus had not even preached his first sermon. He was 30 years old and had done nothing remarkable other than learn the trade of a carpenter. But he was the son of God and the father was pleased with him and loved him and was happy with him, just like he was where he was. And that was revelatory for me. And that's one of the reasons God matched me up with Jeff, because Jeff is the beloved man. He is the John, the Beloved Specialist, and I have learned so much from him and it's the best thing that's happened to me since. In this order Holy Spirit, kathy and then Jeff. Jeff is my. 17:09 - Speaker 4 That is a big statement and there's so much in what you said, Mike, that I want to unpack. First, is you know, something in what you said and in the book that deeply resonated with me was that sadness can coexist with happiness, that it's not necessarily one or the other. And when I read that and when you said it again, I immediately recalled in the Psalms, where it says darkness is as light to God, but for us we tend to need to know dark in order to know light, and so, in a way, sadness can actually authenticate happiness. Right, how do you see that coexisting in the life of pastors and ministry leaders, or how can it based on your experience, Mike? 18:00 - Speaker 2 Well, it's a hard fought battle because we're looking in all the wrong places sometimes and I didn't know that it was possible. What I learned as we wrote this book, and the reason we wrote the book based on what we'd learned, and Jeff really had great insight in this area. I learned what Jesus taught because I knew it had to be right. And when he says, happy are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted, that's an oxymoron if I've ever heard it. Okay, I'm mourning, I can't be happy while I mourn, but when you understand this kind of happiness, it is possible to receive a comfort from God that is so much greater than whatever it is that's causing you to mourn. Whatever it is. It almost seems sacrilegious that you can actually have a deep joy that you don't lose even in the most difficult of circumstances. I experienced this up close and personal last year when my younger sister passed with pancreatic cancer, and I have to tell you that I walked through that painful experience, was with her in her dying moments and then conducted her memorial service, and my soul never reached the depths of depression and sorrow and grief that I used to go to, because the joy of the Lord is the strength of his people. So what I found out and this is going to be a strong statement, I've never made this before. 19:53 I'm going to let this state, I'm going to let Jeff sort this statement out but you know, in Jesus' day I now see that there's another reason why he was so hard on the Pharisees who were actually at a funeral service mourning. But I found out in biblical history that these people, the family, would actually pay these guys to come and mourn. So it was a fake kind of mourning that they put on so that they could wail and cry. And everyone was in this awful place and you actually paid people to come in and mourn at your loved one's funeral. And it's almost like when you understand what God has prepared for us in the way of comfort. It almost makes that kind of mourning into something that seems so hypocritical. 20:59 Because the apostle Paul said it best. He said we don't. He was talking to the Thessalonican church who were losing martyrs to the beast every week and they said they asked him what is going to, what's happened to our dead loved ones? And that's when he was explaining the resurrection. And he said in that setting we don't mourn as those who have no hope, and that's why we can't go there. We won't go there. You can actually be filled with a real peaceful happiness, even in the toughest of circumstances. 21:36 - Speaker 4 Wow, that's really powerful. Now, maybe now would be a good time to turn it to Jeff. You know, I think it strikes me that maybe one of the things that makes you the guy for Mike and such a great partner in this book is that this is not theoretical for you. You write about deep challenges, journeying through them very recently. How did joy and sorrow coexist side by side for you during that time, Jeff? 22:04 - Speaker 1 Yeah, you know, um, I'm just, I'm having a, I'm having a memory of, of, of Mike. You know we had, we had met each. We've known each other for, you know, since, I think, 2010. And then, during the pandemic, you know how everything kind of we kind of had gone our separate ways, in the sense that I'm busy in San Francisco and he, I think, at the time was in DC and or, yeah, he was in DC at the time, and so we're kind of in our in our separate paths and I would, he did unbeknownst to him. 22:40 You know, I was going through a very difficult time, in fact, in 2018, um, I, you know it's even hard to as I reflect on it now. I mean, I even have a difficult time saying it because it just when I think of what I'm saying, it kind of shocks me and scares me. But in 2018, I had contemplated and reflected on suicide and you know I'm a pastor. I've got several things led up to that moment domestic issues, family issues and I felt like that was my only kind of, that was the only choice that I had. 23:21 I was thinking through the darkness, whatever I was walking through, and the truths of this book and what Jesus had said on the Beatitudes had not like a seed of God's word implanted in my own heart, heart, and they weren't producing that fruit. And I remember, you know, kind of coming through that time by God's grace and by people that were very loving to me during that time. I eventually came through that. But I remember, after having come through that and the pandemic both of which were very like emotionally challenging, spiritually challenging there was a lot of loss, I'll just say it like that A lot. And I remember, as it relates to this beatitude, having a moment where I wasn't allowing myself to grieve, like I was just like get through this, toughen up, be strong, don't cry, don't, and I was just kind of like pushing and forcing my way through this. 24:23 And I had a moment where I realized, in light of this verse, that God can't comfort my toughness in the sense of, if I'm not willing to be vulnerable and open up and we weep with God, there's not going to be a comfort. Because because that pride, that arrogance, which is what it is, it poses itself as as a resistance to God, like I'm resisting any of any comfort, any consolation from God. And I think in that moment, when I was very much aware of that, I opened myself up to just crying and being very open and transparent with it and vulnerable and just saying I need you. And I think this is very much related to the first beatitude. Both of them are very related for me, because it was in that emotional poverty. I am absolutely bankrupt, I need God. I can't do this without God and neither do I want to. And just that vulnerable, impoverished acknowledgement that my spirit is poor and the only richness that I gain is what your spirit deposits into me. And if I try to do this without you, I'm deceiving myself. It's the Laodicean attitude you are blind and naked and poor, you know, but you think that you're wealthy and you have everything. And so I think for me it was. It was that that was the moment, you know, of embracing both the, the, the, the being impoverished in my spirit and then grieving, allowing myself to grieve, and, and in that, the very thing that Mike thing that Mike mentioned, was my experience and my reality. And it's hard for me to even describe except to say that I just I remember the moment that I was like I need you. 26:27 In that same breath, not a different one, not a month later in the same breath of that acknowledgement, in that vulnerable admission of grief and sorrow, was the consolation of heaven that Christ was with me, in that very breath. And then it occurred to me later, when Mike and I were writing this, as I started reflecting on what had happened and what was going on. It occurred to me later that it was in that breath. Christ was present, there had been there the whole time, but I had held up a wall, a barrier to it. But in the admission of it he rushed in and I thought, you know, I would never have known God as a comforter had I not allowed myself to grieve and yearn for his comfort. But I would never know that my sorrow allowed me to experience God in a way that I never would have experienced him had I not gone through sorrow and mourning. And and so in that sense it's a joy right. 27:42 It's like like in that moment, you you realize, oh my God, I've got this treasure, I've I've got God in a way that I've never had before and I think it's, you know, as Mike was talking about the baptismal waters of Jesus, I think for millennia people had this prophetic perception, or, you know, the Moses perception, the law perception of God, and now in the water we have a paternal perception of God. And now in the water we have a paternal perception of God, you know, like he is a father that's delighting over his son, and I think it brought complete. It brought a complete, radical corrective to the perception of humanity, of God which up to that point was, you know, was the terrifying, the fascinating. Terror is what we were kind of left with when we look at Moses and Elijah and all the other, even the poets, when we look at their experience with God. But in Jesus we see a child and a father delighting each other in the water a child and a father delighting each other in the water. 28:59 - Speaker 4 Wow, thank you for sharing that very personal and very powerful testimony. Blessed or happy are the poor in spirit is, I think, as you point out in your book, one of the hardest things to understand. But one testimony and it kind of brings it to understand. But one testimony and it kind of brings it to life right. You know, we've been doing this podcast for a while here at Faithly, just capturing the stories of pastors and other ministry leaders, and we've released at the time of this recording, we've released about 80 episodes and some themes have started to emerge and one of the things we've noticed is an above average number of pastors and ministry leaders have contemplated taking their own lives and there is something about reaching that point of desperation, of emptiness, that the Lord can then rush in and begin to use someone like you, Jeff, and many of the folks that we've talked to in really special and powerful ways. Thank you for sharing that Really so powerful. 30:03 You know, one of the things that I love about your book is that you don't leave any stone unturned. You really I mean you dive deep into each topic and subtopic and related topic, and one of the things I thought was so interesting as you started talking about this, like what does porn spirit mean and emptiness and needing God? Was when you talked about generosity right, because not everyone is walking through a season of desperation. There are people who are maybe in a season of abundance but still need the Lord, and you point to generosity as a strategy to empty yourself. I thought that was so intriguing. Is that something that you want to talk a little bit about now? 30:43 - Speaker 1 You know I have and I say this, I'm not just saying this because I'm on this call right here and Mike's on the call I've known and met a lot of generous people in my lifetime, but I have never met a person more generous with all of his, with all their gifts and talents, resources, finances, than Mike. Mike embodies and sometimes I feel like that's. You know, he's got a lot of messages or words from God that his life has incarnated, like he is an incarnation of so many beautiful words of God, but one of those words is generosity, and so I'm going to just stand back and let him speak this, because there's a beauty that comes through him, because he has an authority in it, because I see him give and give and give and give. 31:44 - Speaker 2 And he just has no scarcity mentality whatsoever. Trying to think about how and where that developed? Because actually I was raised, as many were, by baby boomers, a generation of scarcity and lack. My parents, anybody who came through the Depression and World War II had a mentality of scarcity. My dad, to the end of his life, would drive on tires. It wasn't that he couldn't afford them, but he'd gone through a season where they were rationed. My dad, to the end of his life, would drive on tires. It wasn't that he couldn't afford them, but he'd gone through a season where they were rationed and rubber wasn't available during the war. And so you drove tires until the inside showed on the outside they were bald, they had threads showing, and dad would tell you how many miles he'd gotten out of those tires. But I can't say I was born with it. 32:41 But I have always had, I think, at its very basic element. I don't hold on to things. I realize nothing is permanent, that everything I have I'm just a steward of for a while, and the more of it I can distribute and give away, and I don't do it in order to get something back. But I can't help but get something back. You're not going to be? What is that verse that says when you give to the poor, you lend to the Lord, and God is not going to be beholden to my generosity and say sorry, I just let you go broke giving things away to people and I forgot I was supposed to give you something because you're going to run out. That just doesn't happen. It's not possible. And if it weren't, things and resource I get back. Just the love that I get back and the warm, fuzzy feeling in my heart that I get back. And it's just the way you're supposed to do that. And I have to tell you, if I had time to tell some of those stories, Alicia, you would see that whether it's the smallest thing, the smallest ways or big things I had to prove this, that this works, because I wrote a book on it, called God's Law of First Things. And when you put God first, then God will bless you. And it's not a prosperity gig, it's not a trick, it's not a hack. It's a principle that's so ingrained in who God is. God so loved, he gave, and when you love, you get. It's as simple as that. And then God cyclically makes sure that you're given back to. So it's a joy. It's a basis for my happiness, it is what I live for. 34:44 My daughter came and had a stern talk with Kathy and I a couple weeks ago and said listen, I don't know a lot about your finance and your retirement stuff and all that, but I do know that you have a living will and I do know that you told us that us kids are in it. But I just want to tell you something, dad I want you and mom to live it up and spend all that money and don't save any of it, worried about us getting some when you're gone. But that's just what you do. You think about your legacy and who you've done, what for, and and that's what you live for. 35:24 And I learned yesterday, for instance, about a family that I knew. I knew their grandmother and, uh, one of their grandmothers. They got married and now they have long story short, but they have a blended family and they have eight kids and they have one little car that they can't get them all in. This sounds awful and embarrassing that anybody would have to do this, but I learned yesterday from someone at the church that this family was there Sunday and I actually went over and held their newborn little baby. That was just a doll. And so somebody in the church that was a leader said send me a text. And said do you know their story? The little baby you held Sunday, that family's blended family, and that's their new baby. But they have eight children and they have this tiny little car and they didn't want anybody to know it, but they actually brought two of the kids to church in the trunk. They had to get them out of the trunk because they can't get them all in the car it's so small. And so I called a friend of mine that's a car dealer because that's not going to happen, so they won't have any more kids in the trunk this week. 36:37 So to me, when a need is put in front of you that you can do something about and you don't, then you need to examine your own heart and your own character, because I can do something about that and I can't refuse doing something about that. Now I can't do that for everybody, but I believe there's so much generosity on tap that when we put a need out there, I believe there are so many people wanting to do something. But it has to be exemplified and I hesitate telling this little story. I told you about the car. But that's kind of what I do. I love cars, I love restoring cars, I love going fast in cars. I love I've always loved cars, so I like giving cars to people. 37:24 So about three months ago I spoke at Covenant Church that my daughter now pastors that I founded and it was totally spontaneous. And I just said I heard about a single mom here in the church needing a car and there were several thousand people in this service and I did something really crazy but I said, listen, if you are a single parent and you're struggling, you can't make it in a big city with no transportation. So if you need an automobile and you are single and you and so anyway, I invited them to come forward like an altar call. So there was real sweetness in the room. 34 people walked up there. Some of them were young couples with children, because I didn't say just single parents. I said, if you're a new family and you're struggling, you don't have transportation, then you come up here. 38:21 So 34 people and couples came up there. 38:25 So I asked them to turn around and face the audience and I said to the audience I'm going to choose and take care of one of these people up here. 38:33 Kathy and I will. We're going to get them a car, but some of you got two or three cars in the driveway or the garage and you're not even using them all. So you can either give them a car or we'll run it through the church and you can give them the money to buy the car. But I want you to come up here and choose a person that you want to give a car to, and people rushed forward. So out of that, the guy that's over it at the church told me last week I believe he said 63 people now have, and singles and young families have been given a car since that call, and they have over a hundred thousand dollars in a fund to do that, going forward for people in the church as they manifest need and struggle. I just think there's a lot of people who want to do something, but, dadgummit, we just got to step up and do it and not talk about it, and I'm so. 39:32 I used a dad gummit there because I feel a touch of frustration that, while some do podcasts sadly, Alicia, because they're going to expose all of the rich preachers and the big churches and the stuff they're doing bad For every one of those scandals there's a hundred thousand precious men and women of God out there doing everything they know to do to make the world a better place. 40:05 - Speaker 4 I know it. 40:06 - Speaker 2 And those are the people I'm going to help do that. 40:08 - Speaker 4 I know it. 40:09 - Speaker 2 Because there's never been a monument erected to a cynic, but there's lots of monuments erected to heroes who did a little something to make the world better. 40:21 - Speaker 4 Yeah. 40:23 - Speaker 2 Sorry, I'm going to preach it now. 40:26 - Speaker 4 I love it. I love it, thank you, and I love that story. Thank you for sharing it. Mike, what you just described is an Acts church. 40:36 - Speaker 3 It's an. 40:36 - Speaker 4 Acts church and I think that what you said is so spot on. I think we all have this desire in our hearts to be a part of an X church, but we need someone to exemplify it. We need someone to stand up and say I'm going to give the first car who is going to join me? Wow, I'm really glad I went there with generosity. I'm really glad you shared that story. That's really inspiring and encouraging and, yeah, I just love it, thank you, thank you. Now I want to ask you this. I wasn't expecting to read anything provocative when I opened up a book about happiness and Jesus, but you, too, ask some provocative questions and you present some provocative things. For example, you ask the question in this book was Jesus happy? That's not anything I've thought about before. I've never heard anyone ask that question and you make a really good case that he was. Can you talk about that? 41:36 - Speaker 1 Your turn, Jeff your turn Jeff I, I think I mean there's several um uh stories that lead me to believe that that, that he was. Uh, you know, one joy is just contagious and people follow that. It's hard to it's hard. He didn't lead by fear, in fact, he confronted the fear mongers. He led with joy, he led with love, he led with faith. 42:05 He stepped out and gave these bold pronouncements of good news. His message was not doom and gloom. His message was not return to the law. His message was it's good, it has been fulfilled. I am the embodiment of all that. God is right. He steps out there and says you know, you read the scriptures thinking that in them you're going to find eternal life, but I, I'm what they were pointing to. 42:31 You know, I think the first, for me, the first miracle, the first sign in John, chapter 2 is kind of that. For me. It speaks to this whole issue of, you know, turning water into wine was like, of all things. I mean, if you're going to debut a miracle for crying out loud like, do something big. You know, raise the dead. Or you know, cause a storm to stop in mid track up in the sky. Or you know, cause a storm to stop in mid-track up in the sky or you know I mean, but really turning water to wine. I mean we could do without it. We could actually just drink water and we'll be okay, it's not going to hurt anyone. And yet he was so concerned we should say his mother, let's give her the credit she was so concerned that this wedding went off without a glitch that she says do whatever he tells you to do. And he does it right. And we know that wine is kind of the symbol for merriment and mirth and happiness and joy. And he steps out there and he provides it. I think that's the first miracle, the first sign or indicator to me of a God that is happy. And I would base that and I don't think I got into this in the book. 43:44 But if you're reading John and you're beginning with John 1, verse 1, in the beginning, it's tracking along with the seven days of creation, because in the beginning you got the next day and the next day and the next day, and when you get to the wedding at Cana, it's on the seventh day, it's on the day that's broken, it's on the day when everything has fallen apart. It's a reminder of how everything fell apart in the garden and the wedding that was supposed to be so magical and so beautiful and so happily ever after-ish, is gone and he steps in that moment and he restores the brokenness of our human relationships. He restores it. That's the miracle. He brings joy back to the garden and I think, when you continue on, of course, and you follow journey the baptism in the waters, I have this picture of the Father's Son just living in the joy and in the glow of His Father's joy. And again, john, you'd pick this up, the word glory, you know, which is kind of like the word honor, but you get the sense that he, like I'm going to go to the cross, but it's not like a martyr's complex. Here you get the sense. Well, and the writer of Hebrews says he endures for the joy that's set before him. Like, you get the sense that it's a joy for him to step into this life that he's being called to. So he lives out all of the beatitudes, he enfleshes all of them. He is an incarnation of every one of those beatitudes, all the way to the cross where he's saying Father, forgive them. You know when you're persecuted. And so I think this if you were to ask me, you know what would be the most important concept that you're working with in the book. 45:40 I think the book rises and falls on this idea that God is happy. 45:44 Therefore you can be happy. 45:47 And however we see God is how we see ourself. And however you see God to be is how you see yourself to be. And if you think God is angry and upset, then you tend to be angry and upset. And if you think God is like a perfectionist that's demanding perfection out of you and has a baseball bat and is ready to wallop you, then you're going to be that way and you're going to worship a God that's that way and you become the thing you worship right. You worship right. But if you see God as a God that is rejoicing in his creation, that moment by moment, minute by minute, breath by breath, the world is being incarnated by his word. He is speaking creation right now, right this very moment. The stars, the sun, it's all an incarnation of his word and it's coming from His love and His joy. And if you believe that, then when you step outside, you see the grass is a little bit different, the sky is a little bit different. You see it all manifesting the beautiful heart of a loving, joyful Creator and Father. 46:55 - Speaker 4 Wow, that's so beautiful. Thank you, Jeff. Well, we're coming up on time here and I feel like we've barely scratched the surface. So that just means our listeners have to go out and get the book and dive into it for themselves. As you two know, we have a lot of pastors and ministry leaders who listen to this podcast, and I bet more than a few of them right now are thinking how can I bring more joy into my ministry, you know, for my own life as well as the life of my congregants. So what practical steps can they take other than getting the book for themselves and diving into it? What else can our listeners do? 47:37 - Speaker 2 Well as an action, and thank you so much, Alicia, for recommending the book. They can go, of course, to Amazon or anywhere you get books and get their copy of the book, and also we have what we call a playbook, which is like a workbook that goes with it, so that is great for small groups or book clubs or Bible studies. It breaks down very well into various parts and they can get that as well. We wanted to do something for your podcast viewers and add that and make the workbook a gift for those who choose to buy the book, and they can then download the workbook and the playbook and go through the whole thing, and it works really well for pastors and teachers. It's a great Bible study and I would end quickly with this, Alicia, that, on the heels of what Jeff was just sharing, you know on, was Jesus happy? 48:35 There is a reason why God in the Old Testament forbade any graven image of himself Don't carve something that's supposed to look like me out of a rock or a piece of wood or whatever. It was absolutely forbidden. I wonder why? Because when we get an image of what we're told, is God in our minds that we've seen a physical reenactment, an image. This is God. It's very tight and imprisoning and locks us into an image that makes seeing him any other way difficult. So let me finish with this what about the crucifix? The crucifix that millions have hanging around their neck or they're on the walls of churches or everywhere. That's an image. Crucifix means cruce, the cross fixed on the cross. That's what crucifixion means. So when we look at that image and when we say that's God and he's hanging with his head down and he's wounded and he's dead, and let's fix him to that, that moment in time. And that's not where Jesus is. He is not fixed to a cross, he is enthroned in the heavens and the Bible says that all of the angels and he rejoiced. When one comes to faith, they rejoice. So how about getting that image in our minds? 50:06 And I remember one time I'm going to have to confess this quickly but I had a family member in the hospital and we were kind of struggling through something. My son had had an accident at 16 and had a brain surgery and so forth and a friend of mine that was a pastor brought me an image. It's a carving. You might have seen it. It was made out of plaster, but it's called Laughing Jesus and it's Jesus sitting on a rock and he has his head thrown back laughing. 50:35 I was offended by that laughing. I was offended by that. I think my attitude would have been better suited by Jesus hanging dead on a cross than the image of Jesus laughing. But the truth is he is not still hanging on a cross and we lock that image in our minds so that we can't even imagine a laughing Jesus. So that we can't even imagine a laughing Jesus. But the truth is he had a lot of joy. 51:00 I love to see his sense of humor and his cynicism in his teaching. I love it when he said to some Pharisees this is a funny guy, this is a funny statement. When he said you guys are giving us fits because one of us has a splitter in our eye and you have a two before in your eye. That's funny. Jesus was not all about weeping and mourning and carrying the burden of the world on his shoulders. He was filled with joy and that's the image I want in my mind and that's the image I get from the word and that's what we talk to people about in this book. Get Real Happy. Most of the happiness we see people trying to manifest is fake happiness. Get the real happiness. 51:48 - Speaker 4 I love it. Preach it, Pastor Mike Preach it. I think that is the perfect place to end our conversation today. We will put in the show notes instructions on how our listeners can get access to the worksheet to accompany the book. And is there a website that we should point folks to to read more about your ministry and what you're up to? 52:11 - Speaker 1 Yeah, they can go to imrealhappy.com that's without an apostrophe, so I-M-R-E-A-L-H-A-P-P-Ycom and they can sign up there and they can be caught up on everything that we're doing with the Real Happy Project and what's coming up next. We have another project that's coming up next. So all of these, that would be the easiest way for them to follow us perfect. 52:35 - Speaker 4 We will put those in the show notes as well. Folks, it's a movement and you don't want to miss it. Thank you, Jeff. Thank you Mike. 52:44 - Speaker 2 Thank you, Alicia. Thank you Alicia. 52:46 - Speaker 3 Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. The Faithly digital platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection, foster collaboration and promote growth within the church and ministry space. Remember to subscribe, rate and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you. Stay tuned for more uplifting tales from the front lines of ministry on the Faithly Podcast. Stay bold, stay faithful and never underestimate the power of your own story.