The State of Theology - Chris Larson | Faithly Podcast

100:00:00.420 --> 00:00:06.260This pluralistic idea has really seeped into the church, and there are churches200:00:06.260 --> 00:00:08.940that are not real clear on this.300:00:09.140 --> 00:00:15.860I mean, I hear these things from movie stars and politicians and pastors.400:00:26.620 --> 00:00:32.740Every couple of years, Ligonier Ministries does this partnership with Lifeway,500:00:33.080 --> 00:00:39.280and you all release the State of Theology, which is a survey that explores what600:00:39.280 --> 00:00:40.960Americans believe about God.700:00:40.960 --> 00:00:47.580And the 2025 findings, the most recent findings, were fascinating because it800:00:47.580 --> 00:00:54.200revealed that the majority of evangelical Christians in America have views of900:00:54.200 --> 00:00:57.660God and of sin that contradict Scripture.1000:00:58.460 --> 00:01:03.560And so I'm joined today by Chris Larson, president and CEO of Ligonier1100:01:03.560 --> 00:01:05.600Ministries, to tell us a whole lot more.1200:01:06.040 --> 00:01:08.440Chris, thank you so much for joining the podcast.1300:01:08.440 --> 00:01:13.980It's great to be with you all and to discuss these matters, and we look forward1400:01:13.980 --> 00:01:17.160to this conversation in any way we can serve your audience.1500:01:17.580 --> 00:01:18.600Wonderful, wonderful.1600:01:18.780 --> 00:01:19.980Well, thank you again, Chris.1700:01:20.380 --> 00:01:25.280Before we dive into this important report, I'd actually just love to start with1800:01:25.280 --> 00:01:26.580your personal story.1900:01:27.140 --> 00:01:30.120You didn't begin your career in ministry.2000:01:30.280 --> 00:01:34.820In fact, you worked in the educational and the corporate world.2100:01:34.820 --> 00:01:39.000What was the turning point that led you into ministry?2200:01:40.040 --> 00:01:44.840Yeah, I would say that from the time that I was converted, late in my teen2300:01:44.840 --> 00:01:52.280years, I was early discipled by a gentleman in my church who was answering all2400:01:52.280 --> 00:01:58.900those questions that Christians have in their early 20s or late teens, early2500:01:58.900 --> 00:01:59.40020s.2600:01:59.680 --> 00:02:01.440What's God's will for my life?2700:02:01.440 --> 00:02:04.280What am I supposed to do for a living?2800:02:04.840 --> 00:02:06.060Who am I supposed to marry?2900:02:06.300 --> 00:02:08.400You know, all those big God's will questions.3000:02:09.180 --> 00:02:13.560And I didn't know hardly anything about theology at that time.3100:02:13.700 --> 00:02:19.220And so he kindly discipled me, helped me to understand the Scriptures better,3200:02:19.220 --> 00:02:23.340and he took me to the call of Abraham in Genesis 15.3300:02:23.340 --> 00:02:28.840And I won't go into the longer story there, but it is important because it does3400:02:28.840 --> 00:02:35.960relate to my work even at Ligonier, that what God came to Abraham with was a3500:02:35.960 --> 00:02:36.460promise.3600:02:37.020 --> 00:02:40.440Abraham believed that promise, and it was counted to him as righteousness.3700:02:41.320 --> 00:02:43.740But even Abraham's faith wavered.3800:02:44.100 --> 00:02:48.360And he was asking, how am I going to know how all these things are to be?3900:02:48.360 --> 00:02:54.600And the Lord graciously made a covenant and demonstrated that covenant in a4000:02:54.600 --> 00:02:59.240rather strange ritual, and your viewers can go and read about that.4100:02:59.340 --> 00:03:06.280And even in Genesis 15, verse 17, you see this picture of the Lord God going4200:03:06.280 --> 00:03:12.100through this covenant ceremony, where typically there would be parties on both4300:03:12.100 --> 00:03:18.580sides of a covenant saying, I will do this, you must do that, and if we don't4400:03:18.580 --> 00:03:23.960hold up our end of the bargain, then may what's happened to these animals that4500:03:23.960 --> 00:03:29.320have been sacrificed here, may that happen to the covenant breaker.4600:03:30.220 --> 00:03:37.120And amazingly and graciously, God is the one who himself guarantees both sides4700:03:37.120 --> 00:03:41.000of the covenant in that beautiful, beautiful episode there.4800:03:41.000 --> 00:03:45.920And my friend took me there, and he was trying to say, listen, it's not about4900:03:45.920 --> 00:03:50.480the strength of Abraham's faith, and it's not about the strength of your faith,5000:03:50.720 --> 00:03:50.900Chris.5100:03:50.960 --> 00:03:53.400It's about the object of your faith.5200:03:54.500 --> 00:03:58.360God has promised, and according to His character, He will not lie.5300:03:59.060 --> 00:04:06.800And because He is sovereign, He's powerful, He can guarantee the very ends that5400:04:06.800 --> 00:04:09.580He is using means to accomplish.5500:04:11.020 --> 00:04:13.460And Abraham's faith was imperfect.5600:04:13.720 --> 00:04:14.920My faith is imperfect.5700:04:16.279 --> 00:04:19.320I sin daily in word, thought, and deed.5800:04:19.779 --> 00:04:25.360And yet God, because He is sovereign, and He's a covenant-keeping God, my5900:04:25.360 --> 00:04:28.880friend was just helping me to say, this is who you can trust.6000:04:29.660 --> 00:04:34.620And I think that is what whet my appetite for theology, because theology is6100:04:34.620 --> 00:04:38.240nothing more really than just knowing who God is.6200:04:39.060 --> 00:04:45.000John Calvin would talk about how we can't really know who we are unless we know6300:04:45.000 --> 00:04:45.920who God is.6400:04:46.580 --> 00:04:53.720And so to have that self-knowledge requires knowledge of God, a right knowledge6500:04:53.720 --> 00:04:56.540of God, and then how we're to live in this world.6600:04:56.660 --> 00:04:59.480And of course, our need for our faithful Savior, Jesus.6700:04:59.480 --> 00:05:06.200And so that's a long way around for me to say that I always had, since early6800:05:06.200 --> 00:05:10.700days of my Christian life, an orientation towards the church and theology.6900:05:11.500 --> 00:05:18.700And even in the more corporate type of settings, I had an eye towards the local7000:05:18.700 --> 00:05:21.820church and trying to serve the local church in some way.7100:05:21.820 --> 00:05:29.700And then by God's grace, the other funny part of that story is my friend who is7200:05:29.700 --> 00:05:30.540discipling me.7300:05:30.940 --> 00:05:35.560He's taking seminary classes from Dr. R.C. Sproul, who founded Ligonier7400:05:35.560 --> 00:05:36.180Ministries.7500:05:36.800 --> 00:05:40.800And I didn't know anything about who R.C. Sproul was at that time, but I7600:05:40.800 --> 00:05:41.560quickly learned.7700:05:42.180 --> 00:05:46.860And so I just began to discover that there's a whole ocean out there of7800:05:46.860 --> 00:05:49.720theology that I didn't even know existed.7900:05:49.720 --> 00:05:53.960It's almost like Lewis and Clark going across America and discovering the8000:05:53.960 --> 00:05:54.300Pacific.8100:05:54.520 --> 00:05:55.740Wow, there's an ocean there!8200:05:56.640 --> 00:06:02.500That was kind of what my experience was like in discovering theology and the8300:06:02.500 --> 00:06:03.580historic Christian faith.8400:06:04.140 --> 00:06:07.340So I hope that answers your question a little bit.8500:06:07.480 --> 00:06:08.940I've always had that orientation.8600:06:09.580 --> 00:06:11.680Yes, and it is a beautiful response.8700:06:11.880 --> 00:06:15.040I heard you very clearly say you've always been serving God.8800:06:15.040 --> 00:06:17.220You've always been serving the kingdom.8900:06:17.640 --> 00:06:22.500And leading Ligonier is really just the next step in a career that has always9000:06:22.500 --> 00:06:25.640been oriented towards God, even when you were working in the corporate world.9100:06:26.060 --> 00:06:26.600That's right.9200:06:26.700 --> 00:06:29.440And I didn't feel the call to preach.9300:06:29.860 --> 00:06:31.620I did attend seminary.9400:06:31.940 --> 00:06:34.840I became an administrator at a small seminary.9500:06:35.300 --> 00:06:39.260And it was really there that I was refined in my own sense of vocation and9600:06:39.260 --> 00:06:43.900calling and recognized that there are people who are called to preach.9700:06:45.500 --> 00:06:50.380And while you might have external gifting, if you don't have that sense of9800:06:50.380 --> 00:06:55.080internal call that this is what I must do, you should probably pursue some9900:06:55.080 --> 00:06:58.140other paths until the Lord makes that a little more clear to you.10000:06:58.240 --> 00:07:03.980And so by God's grace, I think the Reformation gives us a lot of insights in10100:07:03.980 --> 00:07:09.260terms of the doctrine of vocation and seeing how that can apply to so many10200:07:09.260 --> 00:07:10.220areas of life.10300:07:10.800 --> 00:07:11.920That's so good.10400:07:12.340 --> 00:07:16.480So you mentioned the founder of Ligonier, R.C. Sproul.10500:07:16.740 --> 00:07:22.840He founded the ministry about 50 years ago to proclaim, to teach, and to defend10600:07:22.840 --> 00:07:24.400the holiness of God.10700:07:24.980 --> 00:07:29.940Chris, as you've carried that great mission forward, how have you discerned10800:07:29.940 --> 00:07:32.640what faithfulness looks like in this generation?10900:07:33.420 --> 00:07:36.380That's an amazing question, Alicia.11000:07:38.720 --> 00:07:40.920So faithfulness is success.11100:07:41.080 --> 00:07:42.960I think that that is what the Lord honors.11200:07:43.360 --> 00:07:48.540The Lord honors those who uphold His word and do not defect from it.11300:07:49.260 --> 00:07:54.860And so in a time where things are so confusing and sometimes vitriolic out11400:07:54.860 --> 00:07:59.120there in the culture, I think being able to provide words of truth seasoned11500:07:59.120 --> 00:08:05.780with grace, spoken in love, and remembering that speaking the truth doesn't11600:08:05.780 --> 00:08:08.460necessarily mean withholding the truth.11700:08:08.960 --> 00:08:13.740You have to speak it in love, but not withhold the truth.11800:08:14.240 --> 00:08:20.820And so I think being able to be courageous and convictional, not wavering, and11900:08:20.820 --> 00:08:27.280recognizing that the old paths, as Jeremiah says, the old paths are paths of12000:08:27.280 --> 00:08:27.760life.12100:08:27.760 --> 00:08:31.000And so there is an era of novelty.12200:08:31.820 --> 00:08:36.760There's an era of AI-generated falsehood and deception.12300:08:37.120 --> 00:08:39.559And I think that's only going to get worse for all of us.12400:08:40.240 --> 00:08:44.700So being able to help the next generation think through, how do you discern12500:08:44.700 --> 00:08:49.120truth from error, or even more problematically, truth from half-truth?12600:08:49.820 --> 00:08:54.420And that's probably the more important area of discipleship that we all must be12700:08:54.420 --> 00:08:55.000focused on.12800:08:55.600 --> 00:08:57.760Well, so say a little bit more about that.12900:08:57.960 --> 00:09:02.860So one of the things that I admire very much about Ligonier is how you all make13000:09:02.860 --> 00:09:08.640rich theology really accessible through multiple channels—Tabletop Magazine,13100:09:08.860 --> 00:09:13.360Renewing Your Mind, RefNet, Reformation Bible College.13200:09:14.080 --> 00:09:17.880What's guiding your vision for discipleship in a world that's flooded with13300:09:17.880 --> 00:09:23.480information, as you say, truth, half-truth, and just so much information,13400:09:23.740 --> 00:09:23.960right?13500:09:25.240 --> 00:09:25.720Yes.13600:09:26.160 --> 00:09:30.380Well, Dr. Sproul, when he founded the ministry, he was very intent that this is13700:09:30.380 --> 00:09:37.160about a message, but it was also a methodology as well, because he taught at13800:09:37.160 --> 00:09:41.840the seminary level, but he, because of his work in the local church, he quickly13900:09:41.840 --> 00:09:48.940discerned that he had a greater interest in focusing on lay people and helping14000:09:48.940 --> 00:09:53.060men and women and boys and girls to be able to understand the riches of the14100:09:53.060 --> 00:09:57.820Bible and the theology of the Scriptures, and trying to help them to understand14200:09:57.820 --> 00:10:00.220how that applies to your daily life.14300:10:00.340 --> 00:10:07.000But he wasn't a pioneer in one sense, because Martin Luther—this is exactly14400:10:07.000 --> 00:10:11.580what he did during the Protestant Reformation— he took the message to the14500:10:11.580 --> 00:10:16.140people, and you had the advent of the Gutenberg printing press and all the14600:10:16.140 --> 00:10:19.960technological innovation that happened in the 16th century.14700:10:20.960 --> 00:10:28.080And so R.C., he applied video back in the 70s, which was at that point really14800:10:28.080 --> 00:10:29.120cutting-edge stuff.14900:10:29.540 --> 00:10:35.320In fact, the ministry would distribute VHS tapes to churches for their Sunday15000:10:35.320 --> 00:10:41.540school and training programs, and some of these churches didn't even have VHS15100:10:41.540 --> 00:10:42.060players.15200:10:42.740 --> 00:10:47.960And so the ministry would just give the churches VHS players so they could play15300:10:47.960 --> 00:10:48.960the different tapes.15400:10:49.300 --> 00:10:54.220But the recording, the series, The Holiness of God, it's gone through several15500:10:54.220 --> 00:10:55.680iterations.15600:10:56.280 --> 00:11:01.500Later, the book, The Holiness of God, it's really come down to that unchanging15700:11:01.500 --> 00:11:05.700focus, and I think that that's why Ligonier has just been able to stay grounded15800:11:05.700 --> 00:11:07.400and focused on its mission.15900:11:08.160 --> 00:11:12.340And when we talk about The Holiness of God, it gets back to that idea of really16000:11:12.340 --> 00:11:16.320knowing who God is as He's revealed Himself through all of Scripture.16100:11:17.020 --> 00:11:18.960Wow, that's so good.16200:11:19.680 --> 00:11:21.920I want to talk about R.C. again.16300:11:22.400 --> 00:11:28.240Something that he's known for saying is, everyone is a theologian.16400:11:28.240 --> 00:11:32.300The question is whether you're a good one or a poor one.16500:11:32.560 --> 00:11:37.260I'm curious your thoughts on that and why it has resonated so deeply for so16600:11:37.260 --> 00:11:37.660long.16700:11:38.260 --> 00:11:43.980Well, let's go back to where we are right now, just sociologically, culturally,16800:11:44.480 --> 00:11:46.980politically, even in the church today.16900:11:47.600 --> 00:11:53.060There's so many different ideas, and we talk about the marketplace of ideas out17000:11:53.060 --> 00:11:53.300there.17100:11:54.380 --> 00:12:00.700The reality is that there's a lot of prescriptions for how to fix people, how17200:12:00.700 --> 00:12:05.380to fix society, how to fix our politics, how to fix our economy, how to fix our17300:12:05.380 --> 00:12:07.480families, how to fix the next generation.17400:12:08.440 --> 00:12:13.140But what many, not just Ligonier and not just Dr. Sproul, but many in the17500:12:13.140 --> 00:12:19.200church have observed is that these ideas are profoundly theological.17600:12:19.200 --> 00:12:24.360In other words, who we think God is changes who we think we are.17700:12:25.700 --> 00:12:28.640And so you have to get to know the Scriptures.17800:12:29.400 --> 00:12:31.960Even just answering the question, who is Jesus?17900:12:32.500 --> 00:12:35.220That is a theological question.18000:12:35.940 --> 00:12:39.060And it has to be the Scriptures that speak.18100:12:39.960 --> 00:12:43.060And this is where we want to just help more people to know.18200:12:43.180 --> 00:12:47.120And I think the challenge that we're all facing in the church today, I'm sure18300:12:47.120 --> 00:12:51.740many of your viewers and listeners would appreciate, is that there is a18400:12:51.740 --> 00:12:56.300biblical illiteracy out there, and that people actually just don't even know18500:12:56.300 --> 00:12:57.340what the Bible says.18600:12:58.040 --> 00:13:02.920And so there's a pressing need for all churches to be leaning into just how do18700:13:02.920 --> 00:13:04.800we help the next generation?18800:13:05.360 --> 00:13:06.280How do we help our neighbors?18900:13:06.480 --> 00:13:09.980How do we help our co-workers to know what's in the Bible?19000:13:10.640 --> 00:13:13.600And the Bible can speak for itself many times.19100:13:13.600 --> 00:13:16.580We don't need to be the interpretive layer.19200:13:18.000 --> 00:13:21.040And so the Scriptures speak authoritatively.19300:13:22.540 --> 00:13:26.880Well, that's actually a great segue into the next part of the conversation I19400:13:26.880 --> 00:13:28.600want to have, which is about the report.19500:13:28.800 --> 00:13:29.740How did it start?19600:13:30.360 --> 00:13:35.560And what does Ligonier hope that the church will take away from it every couple19700:13:35.560 --> 00:13:36.080of years?19800:13:36.620 --> 00:13:41.660So we began back in 2014, and it was driven by this idea that everyone's a19900:13:41.660 --> 00:13:44.540theologian, but not everyone's a good theologian.20000:13:44.780 --> 00:13:48.280And it matters profoundly what you think about who God is.20100:13:48.380 --> 00:13:55.880But we look at doctrine of God, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit, sin, salvation, and20200:13:55.880 --> 00:13:59.780a range of different ethical issues that have come up.20300:14:00.140 --> 00:14:04.600And we had the idea to create a longitudinal study, and so that's why we come20400:14:04.600 --> 00:14:09.300back around to it every few years, to be able to track trend lines, to be able20500:14:09.300 --> 00:14:11.440to provide a resource to the church.20600:14:11.440 --> 00:14:17.460Lifeway Research has been a great partner for us, and they do a great job of20700:14:17.460 --> 00:14:18.260running this panel.20800:14:18.400 --> 00:14:23.880It's a thorough panel, 3,000 different respondents coming into this.20900:14:23.960 --> 00:14:27.980I mean, most of what we see on the nightly news in terms of survey this or21000:14:27.980 --> 00:14:30.880survey that, it's usually 1,000 people or less.21100:14:31.260 --> 00:14:32.880So it's a rigorous sample size.21200:14:33.720 --> 00:14:38.240While we're trying to take the theological temperature of the U.S. population21300:14:38.240 --> 00:14:43.620at large, we are really trying to focus in on the church.21400:14:44.280 --> 00:14:48.160And so that's why in our findings, that's what we're really trying to focus21500:14:48.160 --> 00:14:53.460people's attention on, is some of the confusion in the church.21600:14:53.880 --> 00:15:01.480One of the things that R.C. would say is that Christians many times have happy21700:15:01.480 --> 00:15:04.100inconsistencies in what they believe.21800:15:04.600 --> 00:15:08.860And so what he would mean by that is, on the one hand, you may have a very21900:15:08.860 --> 00:15:13.320orthodox understanding of the doctrine of God, Jesus Christ, sin, salvation.22000:15:14.000 --> 00:15:18.880And yet, in other areas, you can have discontinuities as well.22100:15:19.260 --> 00:15:24.780But that shouldn't surprise us either, because the work of discipleship is a22200:15:24.780 --> 00:15:26.140lifetime process.22300:15:27.000 --> 00:15:32.380Being justified is a once-and-for-all moment in a Christian's life.22400:15:32.380 --> 00:15:37.120But the process of sanctification, of having our minds renewed, that is a22500:15:37.120 --> 00:15:38.240lifetime process.22600:15:38.700 --> 00:15:43.700Some people seem to accelerate, and I look at them and I'm like, wow, I wish22700:15:43.700 --> 00:15:45.940that I could be more like them.22800:15:46.480 --> 00:15:51.660But day by day, the Spirit of God is working in us as we're looking at His Word22900:15:51.660 --> 00:15:55.760to renew our minds so that we're not conformed to the pattern of thinking23000:15:55.760 --> 00:15:56.760that's in this world.23100:15:57.060 --> 00:16:00.380Sorry, I'm quoting Romans 12 to you.23200:16:00.380 --> 00:16:01.760I love it.23300:16:01.880 --> 00:16:03.300Quote away, Chris.23400:16:03.440 --> 00:16:04.040I love it.23500:16:04.340 --> 00:16:09.000Well, so I want to mention a couple of specific examples of the statistics that23600:16:09.000 --> 00:16:13.600are coming out of the survey so that our listeners have a really concrete idea23700:16:13.600 --> 00:16:14.640of what we're talking about.23800:16:15.080 --> 00:16:21.900So this year's report found that over 60% of evangelicals believe everyone is23900:16:21.900 --> 00:16:27.180born innocent in the eyes of God, and over 50% believe that most people are24000:16:27.180 --> 00:16:28.260good by nature.24100:16:28.260 --> 00:16:32.200What do those percentages, what do those findings tell you about how well the24200:16:32.200 --> 00:16:36.520church is teaching, or maybe not teaching, about the doctrines of sin and of24300:16:36.520 --> 00:16:36.880grace?24400:16:37.500 --> 00:16:40.180Yeah, so you can hear in this some of the problems.24500:16:40.460 --> 00:16:45.440If we have a deal to preach the gospel and share the gospel with our family and24600:16:45.440 --> 00:16:55.020friends and our neighbors, if we believe that people are by nature good, or24700:16:55.020 --> 00:16:57.420that—how did the other phrase go here?24800:16:59.100 --> 00:17:00.540Everybody's born innocent.24900:17:01.860 --> 00:17:06.400So if everybody's born innocent, do we need Jesus?25000:17:07.040 --> 00:17:08.300Do we need the gospel?25100:17:09.240 --> 00:17:13.680And so that's just a sandpaper moment for the church to be able to say, wow,25200:17:13.740 --> 00:17:19.660we've got to make it perfectly clear about the nature of humanity, that we are25300:17:19.660 --> 00:17:23.700fallen from birth, and that we are in need of a Savior.25400:17:24.460 --> 00:17:29.660And so we wanted to say kind of away with this universalism, which can25500:17:29.660 --> 00:17:32.380sometimes just be more like a soft universalism.25600:17:32.540 --> 00:17:33.280Everybody's good.25700:17:33.660 --> 00:17:36.320Just be sincere in whatever you believe.25800:17:36.700 --> 00:17:40.860And it seems like it's in vogue today to be spiritual but not religious.25900:17:41.860 --> 00:17:48.380Really, that seems like we're just creating idols that we're then serving, and26000:17:48.380 --> 00:17:52.520not the biblical God, and not understanding the biblical doctrine of salvation.26100:17:52.760 --> 00:17:58.980So I'd say one of the main efforts for the state of theology is to provide a26200:17:58.980 --> 00:18:04.680discipleship tool to the church so that they can then help their people to26300:18:04.680 --> 00:18:08.580better understand why these things are important.26400:18:09.020 --> 00:18:13.140And so I've heard of a lot of pastors who'll just take this survey, and they'll26500:18:13.140 --> 00:18:17.820do a short little series, and just make sure that, are we good on these things?26600:18:18.040 --> 00:18:21.980Because we have new people coming into our churches all the time, particularly26700:18:21.980 --> 00:18:27.460these days, where there does seem to be a renewal of interest in spiritual26800:18:27.460 --> 00:18:28.000matters.26900:18:28.580 --> 00:18:31.680Well, we want to be able to just help people understand, here's what the27000:18:31.680 --> 00:18:32.260Scriptures say.27100:18:32.380 --> 00:18:37.040And so we have to take them a little bit more deeper into the Scriptures, and27200:18:37.040 --> 00:18:39.660just kind of clear up some of the cobwebs too.27300:18:39.860 --> 00:18:44.300But sometimes people have just been poorly taught, and they just need good27400:18:44.300 --> 00:18:44.960discipleship.27500:18:45.260 --> 00:18:47.120So here's to strong churches.27600:18:47.860 --> 00:18:52.000Well, so that is a great idea, to take some of these findings, and then to27700:18:52.000 --> 00:18:53.820check in with the congregation.27800:18:54.540 --> 00:18:58.220I think sometimes it's not even necessarily about the wrong teaching, but27900:18:58.220 --> 00:19:01.180rather some things just don't get taught.28000:19:01.320 --> 00:19:05.780There's another stat from the report that was really interesting to me.28100:19:05.820 --> 00:19:11.700It said that over 50% of evangelicals said the Holy Spirit is a force, but not28200:19:11.700 --> 00:19:12.420a person.28300:19:12.700 --> 00:19:16.260Why do you think there is so much confusion about the personhood of the Holy28400:19:16.260 --> 00:19:16.620Spirit?28500:19:17.620 --> 00:19:21.100Well, I think that we can be understanding on the one hand, because there is28600:19:21.100 --> 00:19:22.940mystery in the doctrine of the Trinity.28700:19:23.500 --> 00:19:28.440And yet, maybe some teachers and pastors, they've just shied away, because28800:19:28.440 --> 00:19:32.900maybe they don't feel like they've got a full handle on how to present this.28900:19:33.460 --> 00:19:37.240And so, you know, I think that there's a lot of resources out there to help29000:19:37.240 --> 00:19:37.560with.29100:19:37.860 --> 00:19:39.460Ligonier can certainly help with that.29200:19:39.460 --> 00:19:46.180But the reality is that we have to have a right understanding of one God, three29300:19:46.180 --> 00:19:51.680Persons, and this is how He reveals Himself to be through the Scriptures.29400:19:52.860 --> 00:19:58.140And otherwise, we're walking around with Star Wars theology in our head,29500:19:58.240 --> 00:20:02.780thinking that there's some mystical force out there guiding and shaping things.29600:20:03.320 --> 00:20:04.580The Holy Spirit's a person.29700:20:05.120 --> 00:20:07.640We can sin against the Holy Spirit.29800:20:07.640 --> 00:20:11.080You can't sin against the wind, which is a force.29900:20:11.540 --> 00:20:14.780Or gravity, maybe is a better picture.30000:20:15.400 --> 00:20:21.220Well, so there was a word that you used in one of your responses.30100:20:21.500 --> 00:20:25.200You said universalism or a soft universalism.30200:20:26.320 --> 00:20:32.240In the report, it said that half of evangelicals agreed that God accepts the30300:20:32.240 --> 00:20:36.360worship of all religions, even while affirming the Bible as their highest30400:20:36.360 --> 00:20:36.760authority.30500:20:36.760 --> 00:20:38.800Is that an example of universalism?30600:20:39.480 --> 00:20:40.760It certainly is.30700:20:41.260 --> 00:20:45.980And again, you kind of hope that maybe they misunderstood the question in some30800:20:45.980 --> 00:20:46.280way.30900:20:47.100 --> 00:20:48.200One hopes.31000:20:48.720 --> 00:20:50.520Because that's pretty shocking.31100:20:50.780 --> 00:20:51.840It's horrifying, really.31200:20:53.720 --> 00:21:00.220This pluralistic idea has really seeped into the church, and there are churches31300:21:00.220 --> 00:21:02.900that are not real clear on this.31400:21:02.900 --> 00:21:06.300And again, it gets back to, it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you31500:21:06.300 --> 00:21:07.200believe it sincerely.31600:21:07.760 --> 00:21:14.660I mean, I hear these things from movie stars and politicians and pastors.31700:21:17.320 --> 00:21:22.740And I think this is a unique challenge here for American Christians as well.31800:21:23.480 --> 00:21:32.180I'm in Asia occasionally, South America, other parts of Africa from time to31900:21:32.180 --> 00:21:32.520time.32000:21:33.300 --> 00:21:40.120And maybe I don't hear quite as much universalism in the church.32100:21:40.580 --> 00:21:46.040It seems like in other places where persecution has been a little more sharp,32200:21:46.260 --> 00:21:49.260people know better what they believe.32300:21:49.260 --> 00:21:55.140I think we've been coasting for a while in the evangelical church, and the32400:21:55.140 --> 00:21:59.500State of Theology Survey is a bit of a wake-up call, we hope, to care about the32500:21:59.500 --> 00:22:03.480theology of the Scriptures and to understand that these things are not just32600:22:03.480 --> 00:22:08.800some academic knowledge trip where it's just, you've got to get the right32700:22:08.800 --> 00:22:09.860answers on an exam.32800:22:09.980 --> 00:22:11.100That's not it at all.32900:22:11.560 --> 00:22:17.480These are matters of eternal truth, eternal heaven or eternal hell in many33000:22:17.480 --> 00:22:17.900cases.33100:22:17.900 --> 00:22:20.140You don't mince words in your report, Chris.33200:22:20.240 --> 00:22:25.860You wrote, Poor theology, no matter how sincerely held, can lead to confusion,33300:22:26.520 --> 00:22:29.280compromise, and even spiritual harm.33400:22:29.940 --> 00:22:34.560Can you talk more about the consequences of everything that we've been talking33500:22:34.560 --> 00:22:34.980about?33600:22:35.960 --> 00:22:42.620I think if you look at a number of trend lines in the mainline churches and33700:22:42.620 --> 00:22:48.420some of the different schools, seminaries, things like that over the past 30,33800:22:48.500 --> 00:22:52.26040 years, I think you can see just that decline.33900:22:52.480 --> 00:22:55.840I was just looking at some reports the other day, putting out by a statistician34000:22:55.840 --> 00:23:02.580who reports on these things, and it's very clear that as a church defects from34100:23:02.580 --> 00:23:07.620the historic Christian faith, there is a weakening and a softening.34200:23:07.620 --> 00:23:14.420And so many times if we're not discipling our people, they're not able to then34300:23:14.420 --> 00:23:16.340discern falsehood.34400:23:16.620 --> 00:23:21.380They're not able to discern, as I was saying earlier, truth from half-truth,34500:23:21.780 --> 00:23:23.780not just truth from error.34600:23:24.440 --> 00:23:28.640And if we're not doing that work of discipleship, we just make our people34700:23:28.640 --> 00:23:29.280vulnerable.34800:23:30.160 --> 00:23:34.860And so I think this is the time, as I say, I think it's a wonderful time to be34900:23:34.860 --> 00:23:35.680alive as a Christian.35000:23:35.680 --> 00:23:39.800I think it's an amazing time to be able to witness for the gospel, to be able35100:23:39.800 --> 00:23:41.460to see the Great Commission go forward.35200:23:41.640 --> 00:23:48.140I believe that the church is growing, but there are pockets where we could35300:23:48.140 --> 00:23:53.780shore up our theological understanding derived from the Scriptures so that the35400:23:53.780 --> 00:23:54.620church is healthy.35500:23:55.440 --> 00:23:59.620That's what we're talking about here, is we want to see healthy churches.35600:23:59.860 --> 00:24:02.760And so that's the vulnerability that we're trying to get at.35700:24:02.760 --> 00:24:04.800And just sound an alarm.35800:24:05.040 --> 00:24:06.100This is a concern.35900:24:06.380 --> 00:24:07.220This is a caution.36000:24:07.720 --> 00:24:13.400On the State of Theology website, churches can go into a data explorer and see36100:24:13.400 --> 00:24:15.300all of the information there.36200:24:15.580 --> 00:24:17.080You can go into different regions.36300:24:17.420 --> 00:24:18.960You can sort by age.36400:24:19.460 --> 00:24:25.700You can sort by various sociodemographic layers there— college education,36500:24:25.960 --> 00:24:29.480household income, ages, of course, male, female.36600:24:29.480 --> 00:24:32.340But you can also look at different regions of the country.36700:24:33.280 --> 00:24:39.520We also have a way for you to be able to give people your own test that you can36800:24:39.520 --> 00:24:44.140actually send out to your small group or your church—a test.36900:24:44.260 --> 00:24:49.320And it anonymizes the responses, but it's a way to just say, are we good here?37000:24:49.760 --> 00:24:50.380How are we doing?37100:24:51.100 --> 00:24:54.800It's a nice little temperature check for churches.37200:24:55.160 --> 00:24:58.760And so a lot of people are using this anonymous group survey tool.37300:24:58.760 --> 00:25:02.000And can they find that on your website, Chris?37400:25:02.440 --> 00:25:05.460Yes, it's on the stateoftheology.com website.37500:25:06.020 --> 00:25:06.720Okay, great.37600:25:07.080 --> 00:25:07.400Perfect.37700:25:07.740 --> 00:25:12.980Many of the survey findings that we've talked about were very surprising to me.37800:25:13.120 --> 00:25:16.460Here's something that being in New York City actually did not surprise me.37900:25:16.820 --> 00:25:23.040This survey result, it said that only 61 percent of evangelicals believe every38000:25:23.040 --> 00:25:26.300Christian has an obligation to join a local church.38100:25:26.300 --> 00:25:30.300Why do you think that commitment to the local church has weakened over time?38200:25:30.480 --> 00:25:35.660And how can we recover that biblical vision for belonging?38300:25:37.120 --> 00:25:37.360Absolutely.38400:25:37.660 --> 00:25:41.360Well, I do believe that the Scriptures teach local church membership.38500:25:42.080 --> 00:25:44.700Otherwise, church discipline has no real context.38600:25:45.040 --> 00:25:50.800If you look at Matthew 18 and other passages in the Scriptures, how would you38700:25:50.800 --> 00:25:55.400exercise church discipline if there's no actual membership in a local body of38800:25:55.400 --> 00:25:55.700believers?38900:25:55.700 --> 00:26:00.040So just logically, there just needs to be some teaching there.39000:26:00.780 --> 00:26:05.820But I think part of the challenge here is that we are in a transient culture.39100:26:06.120 --> 00:26:10.120If you're there in New York City, I mean, people are coming in and out all the39200:26:10.120 --> 00:26:10.420time.39300:26:10.900 --> 00:26:12.840And people are so busy.39400:26:13.860 --> 00:26:17.220And sometimes we've allowed that busyness to happen to us.39500:26:17.840 --> 00:26:24.020And along with the decline of church membership, it's just kind of the general39600:26:24.020 --> 00:26:27.180decline of seeing the Lord's Day as important.39700:26:27.580 --> 00:26:33.340That one day in seven pattern of worship and rest that the Lord said is sacred39800:26:33.340 --> 00:26:34.740and should be set apart.39900:26:35.560 --> 00:26:41.980And it's a gift to us to recover an understanding of the Lord's Day, to lay40000:26:41.980 --> 00:26:48.480aside our worldly employments, and to be engaged in the worship of God, the40100:26:48.480 --> 00:26:50.200fellowship of the saints.40200:26:50.200 --> 00:26:53.140We need this more than we know.40300:26:53.600 --> 00:26:56.240And we are all stressed out and tired.40400:26:56.880 --> 00:26:59.540And so much stuff is bombarding us.40500:26:59.920 --> 00:27:06.860The Lord gives us 52 days a year to rest, to take a break, to turn off the40600:27:06.860 --> 00:27:07.200phone.40700:27:07.760 --> 00:27:09.680Just give it a rest.40800:27:10.340 --> 00:27:11.420Be with God's people.40900:27:12.060 --> 00:27:19.660And so again, I think in this age of technology and the AI world that we're all41000:27:19.660 --> 00:27:27.620kind of grappling with now, being embodied in a community, I think people are41100:27:27.620 --> 00:27:29.920going to see the value of this even more so.41200:27:30.040 --> 00:27:34.800And so I'm actually quite bullish on the local church because I think people41300:27:34.800 --> 00:27:37.820are going to recognize I need community.41400:27:37.980 --> 00:27:38.780I need accountability.41500:27:39.140 --> 00:27:39.960I need encouragement.41600:27:40.140 --> 00:27:42.620And I'm not sufficient in and of myself.41700:27:42.760 --> 00:27:45.140I need spiritual authority in my life.41800:27:45.140 --> 00:27:51.240I need my brothers and sisters encouraging me in Godliness and holy living.41900:27:52.300 --> 00:27:54.120I'm not an island unto myself.42000:27:54.480 --> 00:28:00.040And the devil, I think, likes to isolate Christians and let them live on social42100:28:00.040 --> 00:28:04.360media, kind of peering in on other people's lives, but they do it from the42200:28:04.360 --> 00:28:05.840safety of behind their screens.42300:28:06.440 --> 00:28:13.640And they're just living these isolated lives, and the devil just loves to wreak42400:28:13.640 --> 00:28:16.940havoc on us when we are cut off from the body.42500:28:17.100 --> 00:28:20.500So, I mean, you have all these beautiful images in Scripture, don't you?42600:28:20.540 --> 00:28:25.000You have the shepherd who goes out to find the lost sheep and to bring it back42700:28:25.000 --> 00:28:25.840into the flock.42800:28:26.560 --> 00:28:27.580Well, we're the sheep.42900:28:28.000 --> 00:28:28.860Christ is the shepherd.43000:28:29.160 --> 00:28:31.060So let's stay in the fold.43100:28:31.760 --> 00:28:38.820So I think the local church is essential for the health of the progress of the43200:28:38.820 --> 00:28:39.340Great Commission.43300:28:39.340 --> 00:28:40.380Yes.43400:28:41.120 --> 00:28:41.640Yes.43500:28:41.740 --> 00:28:41.980Amen.43600:28:42.200 --> 00:28:43.880I couldn't agree more, Chris.43700:28:43.960 --> 00:28:44.860Very well said.43800:28:44.960 --> 00:28:45.460Thank you.43900:28:45.620 --> 00:28:48.460So let's wrap it up on the survey with this question.44000:28:48.960 --> 00:28:51.420The survey clearly isn't just about diagnosis.44100:28:52.320 --> 00:28:54.060Ligonier wants to provide solutions.44200:28:54.160 --> 00:28:57.920And you've talked a little bit already about how pastors might use this survey44300:28:57.920 --> 00:29:00.360in their teaching and in their discipleship.44400:29:00.780 --> 00:29:02.020Is there anything else?44500:29:02.300 --> 00:29:05.300Like, can small groups use it, other church leaders?44600:29:05.300 --> 00:29:11.420What else is available to them from Ligonier or from other places to disciple44700:29:11.420 --> 00:29:14.620their people more effectively in sound doctrine?44800:29:15.920 --> 00:29:21.160So the stateoftheology.com is a good resource to be able to go through some of44900:29:21.160 --> 00:29:21.680these questions.45000:29:21.860 --> 00:29:26.300We provide some answers that give you Scripture verses to be able to teach45100:29:26.300 --> 00:29:27.700through these different questions.45200:29:28.080 --> 00:29:30.640You can use the group survey tool.45300:29:30.640 --> 00:29:36.660But then we have to recognize that, yes, everyone's a theologian, and Ligonier45400:29:36.660 --> 00:29:42.080provides a free electronic copy of Dr. Sproul's book called Everyone's a45500:29:42.080 --> 00:29:42.680Theologian.45600:29:43.220 --> 00:29:45.460And so that'd be a great opportunity.45700:29:45.720 --> 00:29:48.880You can do that right there on that stateoftheology.com website.45800:29:49.940 --> 00:29:53.820But Ligonier Ministries, we think of ourselves as a Monday through Saturday45900:29:53.820 --> 00:29:58.060ministry, Christian discipleship, because we want people to be in the local46000:29:58.060 --> 00:30:01.540church, hearing from their pastor on Sundays.46100:30:02.220 --> 00:30:06.020But many times we just need theology on the go.46200:30:06.360 --> 00:30:11.280And so being able to listen to Good Faithful podcasts, ways to be able to get46300:30:11.280 --> 00:30:14.900into the Scripture each and every day, to have our minds renewed.46400:30:15.740 --> 00:30:20.700We have conferences that we host around the country, focusing a lot even in46500:30:20.700 --> 00:30:24.820recent years on teenagers and helping them to think through some of these46600:30:24.820 --> 00:30:25.780questions as well.46700:30:25.780 --> 00:30:29.660So hoping to maybe bring something to New York City in the next year or two.46800:30:30.440 --> 00:30:33.440So maybe, yeah, maybe see you there.46900:30:34.060 --> 00:30:34.900Yeah, keep me posted.47000:30:35.080 --> 00:30:39.580A lot of our listeners and a lot of our community members are here in the New47100:30:39.580 --> 00:30:40.320York City area.47200:30:40.480 --> 00:30:42.080I think that could be very interesting.47300:30:42.280 --> 00:30:46.540We're always looking for more resources on how we can better the church and47400:30:46.540 --> 00:30:50.580better disciple, not just adults, but young people as well.47500:30:51.380 --> 00:30:54.540Let me ask you just one final question, Chris, which is this.47600:30:55.120 --> 00:30:58.240You said you're optimistic about the church.47700:30:59.520 --> 00:31:03.760In all of these findings, in all your conversations with churches and pastors,47800:31:04.020 --> 00:31:05.440what is making you optimistic?47900:31:05.660 --> 00:31:10.200What are you the most optimistic about for the church now and the church of the48000:31:10.200 --> 00:31:10.480future?48100:31:11.840 --> 00:31:15.960Maybe I'll just go back to what I was telling you in terms of my own testimony48200:31:15.960 --> 00:31:16.760there at the beginning.48300:31:16.880 --> 00:31:17.840The Lord is faithful.48400:31:18.480 --> 00:31:20.160He's promised to build His church.48500:31:20.160 --> 00:31:26.120He says in the Great Commission, I am with you even to the very end of the age.48600:31:27.000 --> 00:31:29.040He'll never leave us or forsake us.48700:31:29.740 --> 00:31:35.020So my confidence is not in our own ability, our own strategies, our own48800:31:35.020 --> 00:31:35.540resources.48900:31:36.740 --> 00:31:38.580My confidence is in the Lord.49000:31:39.420 --> 00:31:41.960And the church will go through tough times.49100:31:42.780 --> 00:31:44.400It'll go through times of great blessing.49200:31:44.400 --> 00:31:51.580And you can see that across millennia as the church has waned and waxed in49300:31:51.580 --> 00:31:52.400different eras.49400:31:53.020 --> 00:31:57.900But we always know that the renewal comes through a renewal of the truth and49500:31:57.900 --> 00:31:59.380the confidence in the Word.49600:32:00.080 --> 00:32:05.360You see that in Old Testament Israel when Josiah finds the Scriptures and a49700:32:05.360 --> 00:32:06.560revival breaks out.49800:32:07.640 --> 00:32:09.400This is what we long to see.49900:32:09.400 --> 00:32:15.880A revival drawn really from the pages of Scripture as the gospel is preached50000:32:15.880 --> 00:32:16.480clearly.50100:32:17.380 --> 00:32:23.900And I do see pastors growing in confidence in the gospel and not trying to come50200:32:23.900 --> 00:32:26.980up with some new strategies and methodology.50300:32:27.960 --> 00:32:32.320Sometimes it's just standing up there and just being very clear about what the50400:32:32.320 --> 00:32:35.940Scripture says and having the confidence to say, Thus says the Lord.50500:32:36.680 --> 00:32:38.220We need that today.50600:32:38.220 --> 00:32:40.040And here's my confidence.50700:32:40.880 --> 00:32:46.100Because I know the Lord is faithful, I know that His Word is powerful, that He50800:32:46.100 --> 00:32:46.720is sovereign.50900:32:47.560 --> 00:32:53.180Because He is so kind and gracious, His sheep hear His voice.51000:32:54.320 --> 00:32:57.120And so we just have to be faithful messengers.51100:32:58.040 --> 00:33:02.820And the State of Theology survey is just trying to urge us to be more faithful51200:33:02.820 --> 00:33:04.660messengers of the truth.51300:33:05.100 --> 00:33:07.540Because Christ's sheep will hear His voice.51400:33:07.540 --> 00:33:08.420They will respond.51500:33:08.860 --> 00:33:13.440They will want to come and to feed and to rest and to drink by the cool waters.51600:33:13.840 --> 00:33:15.780That's the gospel hope that we have.51700:33:16.160 --> 00:33:17.160And we have no other hope.51800:33:18.640 --> 00:33:19.520Thank you, Chris.51900:33:19.600 --> 00:33:22.160That is a good word that I heard today.52000:33:22.720 --> 00:33:24.600Really appreciate your time, sir.52100:33:24.720 --> 00:33:26.660Thank you for sharing all of this with us.52200:33:27.160 --> 00:33:31.760And in the show notes, we'll be sure to link to Ligonier and to the State of52300:33:31.760 --> 00:33:36.420Theology website and to the report so that all the pastors and other ministry52400:33:36.420 --> 00:33:40.620leaders who are tuning in can tap into these amazing resources.52500:33:41.320 --> 00:33:43.240I appreciate being with you so much.52600:33:43.320 --> 00:33:44.160Thank you for the opportunity.