The Worship Initiative - Robbie Seay | Faithly Stories

00:01 - Speaker 1 What story are worship leaders telling with the elements of worship? We would suggest and hope and pray that it's the gospel story, that it's Christ-centered, but oftentimes I look back at my own set list and I go. You know, the story was somewhat incomplete and so I want to remind worship leaders, teams, musicians, the church at large, all of it combined to tell a story. Let's tell the gospel story. 00:30 - Speaker 2 Welcome to Faithly Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys, through their ministry work and everyday life Brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders. Learn more at faithlyco. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired on the Faithly Stories podcast. 00:58 - Speaker 3 Robbie Seay Welcome to the Faithly Stories podcast. 01:01 - Speaker 1 Yay, thank you, Alicia, Appreciate it. 01:03 - Speaker 3 It's really such a joy to have you on Now. For those who don't know your journey, would you mind sharing how you got into worship, leading and songwriting? 01:15 - Speaker 1 Well, I'm in Texas. I grew up in Houston, texas, and you know the work that I do now. I interact with worship leaders all over the country and the world and I got into worship leading in the same way that many of them did, which was I grew up in the church and in our youth ministry, even before youth ministry. Like just hey, can you play some songs for the kids in the church? I mean, you hear musicians all the time say, hey, I started in the church and that's definitely that was for me. 01:47 So a youth pastor named Bill, who I grew up in a small town in Texas, he just said, hey, you're leading the songs next week. All right, we ain't got nobody else, so figure out how to strum guitar and get up there. And so, in the same way that so many worship leaders have the opportunity which number one is awesome. Number two it's frightening because you get up there and realize, oh, I don't actually really know what I'm doing. I can play a few songs, but what is happening when the people of God start to sing? I'm not equipped for that. Nonetheless, I grew up in the church and so grateful for Bill and all the other students that I got to lead worship with. It's really how the Lord first invited me into this. 02:33 - Speaker 3 Wow, that's amazing. Well before we started recording Robbie, I shared with you that we kind of accidentally, on purpose, started this podcast and now we're over 80 episodes in. Started this podcast and now we're over 80 episodes in, and I'll say that one of my big three takeaways from having all of these conversations is actually the pivotal role of the youth pastor. You mentioned your youth pastor and his role in your journey and we have heard from so many pastors and ministry leaders that it was their youth pastor who kind of helped something to click into place with them or helped to spark something. So you mentioned your youth pastor. Were there any other pivotal moments where you sensed God confirming your call? 03:15 - Speaker 1 Well, I went to Baylor University for school and the first week I was on campus I was on campus. I encountered a very strange looking man by the name of David Crowder and he and I really kind of jumped in with both feet to help plant a church together and he would pick me up. He had this little Honda Accord that he would pick me up at about 6 am on Sunday morning and he and I would go set up the sound system. A few other people would show up later in the morning and we did that for several years. 03:49 The Hippodrome Theater, which is downtown Waco, texas All right, Alicia, I don't know if you've ever been to Waco Texas, but there's a great old theater and that's where our church met. I bring that up because that was the first moment that I realized that the playing of the songs you know what happens when the service begins is only the tip of a very massive iceberg. There is a lot of work and energy and, hopefully, prayer and spiritual preparation and musical preparation. That leads to the moment where you're inviting other people to sing with you. And I think I was naive. I kind of thought, yeah, he put me on the stage. 04:34 Yeah, that's where the work's at and I realized very quickly no, we're going to set up this sound system, we're going to rehearse the band, we're going to pray together, we're going to ask the Lord to do something here that we couldn't do, and then we're going to rehearse the band, we're going to pray together, we're going to ask the Lord to do something here that we couldn't do, and then we're going to tear the sound system down and be late to lunch. And those few years were extremely formative for me, not only spiritually, but to have a right thinking about what am I doing as a worship leader? Yes, it's songs. We talk about that a lot at the Worship Initiative. But it's more than songs, and I learned that firsthand those first few years of college. 05:10 - Speaker 3 Wow, yeah, so what you're saying is like what the congregation sees in terms of the work and the preparation. What they see is just the tip of the iceberg. But it's also when they think about the worship like oftentimes people think about, like the music part of church, right, but it's also when they think about the worship like oftentimes people think about, like the music part of church, right, but it has this deeper meaning, right to church life. Can you talk about that a little bit, sort of the deeper meaning of worship? 05:38 - Speaker 1 Yeah, the word itself, Alicia. I mean worship. It really is a combination of what we value Worth-ship. What am I placing value? What is the most valuable to me? And of course you've heard it said this is not unique to me, but that we all worship something or someone, and oftentimes my affections are being put on something else and I'm placing value in something above God. And so when we worship, I want to be clear as we start the conversation. 06:11 Worship is so much more than music Music really, it's biblical. We're going to talk about that. What are the commands in scripture? To sing, it is a commandment and it's our life's work to invite the church to sing and it's our life's work to invite the church to sing. 06:28 But worship is the way that I live my life. I am saying to God you are more valuable than anything the world has to offer. And so the way that I treat my neighbor, the way that I interact with a stranger, the way that I think about the relationships within my home if you're married, you're married. If you're single maybe it's a roommate, you're friendships All of these things are acts of worship or can be right, if I'm saying to God you are more valuable than anything, and so when we talk about worship, I think sometimes it's so synonymous with music and singing, and rightly so. It's so synonymous with music and singing, and rightly so. 07:12 But really I often say that is just the culmination of a life lived as a worshiper, and so I am thrilled to point people to musical worship, but, as you know, it's so much bigger than that, and so I would want to start there. I mean, the word itself reminds me I am going to value something or someone above all, and, Lord, help me today. Let it be you. Let me exalt Christ above all, and I need your help to do that. Spirit of God, help me. 07:43 - Speaker 3 Amen, that is so beautiful. Thank you, Robbie. So can I switch gears for a second and ask you about the worship initiative? How did it begin and what's the gap that you're looking to fill in the church? 08:05 - Speaker 1 in college. Even back then, this was the late 90s. Okay, so I'm dating myself right here, but I met two guys, both of them named Shane, and you got one friend named Shane. No, I had two friends named Shane and then they formed a singing group called Shane and Shane. And a side note is that they often get asked if they're brothers and I think, well, what kind of mom names are those? No, they're not brothers, they're friends. They've got the same name. Shane and Shane are dear friends from many, many years ago. I've loved their music. I love worshiping with them when they're leading me in musical worship. I love these guys. 08:40 About a decade ago, a little over a decade ago, separate from anything that I was doing in my ministry, they both had, I think, a conviction that the men and women who are leading worship in the local church need support. They needed some training, they needed some accountability, they needed some encouragement, they needed some accountability, they needed some encouragement, they needed wind in the sails of ministry, and they both had a sense that that was a great need in the church. And so you know, I'm speaking to you today from Dallas, texas. So right here in Dallas about a decade ago, these guys gathered a group of worship leaders and just said let's pray together, let's sing together, let's look to God's word, let's sharpen one another and then let's, as scripture says, let's spur one another on for the work of ministry, so that the church would be strengthened. And that was maybe 20 or 30 worship leaders about a decade ago. Today I have since moved to Dallas. I helped lead this organization. We serve about 11,000 men and women, um representing churches all over the world. 09:50 Really with one aim, if you go, okay, worship initiative. I've heard of that. Maybe some, some people listening, I've heard of that. What is that? We have a very clear aim that we long to encourage and equip the church to sing God's word. That starts with the worship leader, it's the worship teams. 10:08 But I would also say, Alicia, even like the men and women and students and children who are sitting in seats and in pews, who maybe even say I'm not really a singer, we have a conviction here to say to them God made you to sing and you don't have to be an amazing singer for God to delight in the praises of His people, of His children. And so I should mention to you I say 11,000 worship leaders we also have a daily devotional that has that aim. We also have a daily devotional that has that aim. We have about 110,000 people who engage that on a daily basis to say I'm going to start my day with God's word what is true? And then I'm going to sing. 10:54 And so I'm in my car, I'm on a walk, I'm in my cubicle, I am going to open my mouth and sing. I guess, if you're in your cubicle, maybe you don't sing too loud, maybe it's more of a whisper, but I'm going to start my day with singing because something powerful happens when we sing God's word, and so that is our aim. I like the way you said that. What is the gap that we are trying to fill? We have a sense that there is a huge gap for the church and then, specifically, those who lead worship to feel equipped for the role of ministry and then encouraged to keep going, keep leading God's people in singing. 11:33 It's vital, it's biblical, it's commanded in scripture. Let us help you as you do it. 11:39 - Speaker 3 Wow, what commitment and dedication to serve and support worship leaders in this way for 10 years. The 11,000 worship leaders who are a part of what you're doing, how many of them would you say are part of the next generation of worship leaders? You know, these days there's a lot of talk about the next generation of ministry leaders and what they need and what we can do to support and encourage them. Any observations about that that you'd want to share? 12:10 - Speaker 1 I would say a massive part of that 11,000 is of this next generation. I would also say to you, Alicia, one of the great needs worship leaders need training, they need encouragement Also. By encouragement, I mean community Love, to talk about that. What are some ways that we're connecting worship leaders, that they would be in community? But a major need for worship ministers, broadly speaking, is access to a mentor. This is one area of ministry where discipleship and mentorship is dramatically lacking. I think there's a bunch of reasons for that. 12:47 If we're not careful, worship and musical worship sometimes is style-based, and so the idea that maybe more seasoned, older worship ministers age out of ministry. What happens is we have a lot of really young, passionate leaders in ministry who are not qualified for ministry and who often, quite frankly, crash and burn because they feel overwhelmed. And so I just spoke with a worship minister named John a few days ago and he just said I didn't know what. I didn't know. I stepped in. I actually didn't have anybody in my life who I could say I could call hey, what do I do in this situation? I'm having some conflict with some of the musicians on my team. What do I do? What do I do when I got some I'm not huge portion of our community that we serve is of, I think you said, the next generation, but I want to ensure that we have many who've gone before who are going to say I want to encourage you, young leader, I want to be here when you need a phone call, when you need encouragement, maybe occasionally some correction I mean, I needed that I was a young worship leader. 14:07 I'm like somebody correct me because I don't know what I'm doing here and so we are very passionate about ensuring that our worship leaders have a connection to a mentor. It's a great need in worship ministry. 14:20 - Speaker 3 I think just in hearing you talk about that, the need is really coming to life for me, meaning, you know, most churches probably don't have that many worship leaders in one church, right, like most churches are relatively small and the mentorship for the worship leader within the church is coming from probably the pastor or like a non-worship leader and you know, enter the worship initiative and it sounds to me like you have this opportunity to pair up worship leaders with other worship leaders who have walked in their shoes and can provide experience and wisdom. Is that what you do? And does geography come into play? Like, do you try to match people up you know with others around where they are? Yeah, I'm excited that you asked you try to match people up you know with others around where they are. 15:06 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm excited that you asked that because let me just say you know I talked about the decade of work here at the Worship Initiative. Most of that has revolved around the training platform. We're relaunching that platform world-class but what I would say is a discipleship platform really, and discipling men and women, students who are going to lead worship. I'm learning songs, I'm learning, I have ministry training, leadership training. It's all happening there. And so the worship initiative many of our leaders who have encountered us would say what's you know? 15:43 The discipleship platform, the training platform, is really what I know of the worship initiative. What you're suggesting is what we're really excited about and that's the chance to launch smaller groups of leaders regionally, locally, when possible. And I'll be honest with you I need leaders in cities who have experience in ministry, who can be trusted to raise their hand and say I'll gather a group of worship leaders, men and women in my city who are leading worship. I'll gather them. Worship initiative will provide the framework, the training, the teaching, but I need ministers in local cities. We are excited, of course. We call those cohorts worship leader cohort. We're launching in about 30 cities right now. 16:27 - Speaker 3 That should be a hundred cities. 16:31 - Speaker 1 And I know your podcast goes out beyond New York City, but I know you're in New York City, yes, to say hey, I'll gather the worship leaders of the city and I am excited about that. And let me say one more word on this is I think that we have something to offer. Worship leaders, yes, I do think we are helpful, but I get very excited about a local leader who can provide some of that mentorship that I just mentioned to you, who is a real person in front of them, meeting at a living room or in a coffee shop. They're praying together, they're going through our teaching and training and they're sharpening one another. And then that young leader, whether it's Dallas or New York City or wherever, they have a phone number to call. They have a person to call who's been there, done that and say help me in this. I am so hopeful. I'm asking the Lord to use those cohort groups in powerful ways. Okay, so if you're listening and you're a seasoned leader, make sure you hit me up at the worship initiative. I need your help. 17:38 - Speaker 3 Well. So we usually save this until the end, but, I mean, this is a real call to action. So, Robbie, we need you to share right now. How do people get in touch with you, how do they find you and how do they put? 17:49 - Speaker 1 their hand up for this important work. Yeah, I like that. Let's just do the CTA right now you know, call to action. You can reach out to us. Kyle on my team helps me organize. This is Kyle K-Y-L-E at worshipinitiativecom, so please would you just say to Kyle hey, I heard Robbie talking about this. I want to help with this. What do these cohort groups in cities look like? And we'll get you some information. Thank you for that. 18:19 - Speaker 3 Great, okay. So, Robbie, you mentioned community before. You talked about mentoring. Is this how you're hoping to do community is through these cohorts and through mentoring or is that something else that you're also focused on? 18:33 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I think the cohorts are the epitome of the community that we want to launch, but there are some other ways. Let's be honest. I mean I mentioned 30 cities. I'd love to be in 100 cities. That still leaves a lot of cities on the table. That's a lot of places that it's just not possible for leaders to gather in person. So let me just say we have a huge amount of training and then even live webinars virtual of course, but come join us that are free, and you can find that at community316.com. 19:10 Alicia, let me just take the chance to say 316, where does that come from? Is it John 316? That's an amazing scripture, but it's not John 316. All right, it's Colossians 316. That is our life verse, that's our company verse, and Paul is writing to the church there and he's giving instruction on worship. It's awesome. And he says let the word of Christ dwell in you richly. And then he says here's what I want you to do Teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with thankfulness in your hearts to God. Okay, so when I say community 316, that is built on that life verse for us and, to answer your question, it's there at community 316, all of the offerings. Let me give you an example of this, by the way, because if you say, okay, what kind of webinars are you guys doing, let me give you a couple examples. 20:06 One recent webinar that I just absolutely loved was a professor from William Carey University, and he spent time. He spoke with 5,000 Christians who attend church regularly. Okay, not musicians, musicians Not the praise band, not the guitar player or the singer, just 5,000 Christians who said, yes, I attend church. And he asked them several questions, not the least of which was do you sing at church, like when, not sing on the stage, like when they strike? You know the band strikes up. Are you singing out loud? And, if so, what helps you sing? And, if not, what is preventing you from singing? 20:53 And it was so fascinating, and we had hundreds of worship leaders and musicians join us, and here's why I bring it up to you is because, at the end of the day, I told you, our mission here is to equip and encourage anybody in the church to sing and to sing God's word, and I have a group of hundreds of worship leaders who are considering is there anything we're doing that might be preventing the church to sing? This is kind of a fascinating thing to think about, and maybe I'm getting off on a tangent, but let me give you one more example of that. What key are we singing in? Is it too high? Are the lights too bright or too dim? Is the volume? Do people know the songs? Are we singing a variety of types of songs? All of these point back to our end goal, which is we want the church to sing and to sing God's word, and so that's an example of a free webinar at Community 316 that we would just say hey, if you're interested at all, come join us for free. 21:54 - Speaker 3 Robbie, you're really good at teasing this webinar, because I feel like you've said a lot of things that I really want to hear the answer to. Here are the questions in my mind right now right, what percentage of people are actually singing in the church? Like? I really would like to know the answer. Just so you know my guess, Robbie. My guess would be 40% are singing and 60% are not. 22:15 - Speaker 1 It's not a bad guess, and I think what even is more nuanced than the percentage is how this breaks down along gender lines, and so more women sing than men. That may not be a huge shock. The reasons, though, that Dr Bishop Dr Will Bishop is his name, and the research is fascinating, but Dr Will Bishop said that women, primarily, are blaming themselves for not singing. In other words, I don't like my voice, I don't want other people to hear me, I don't know that I can sing like her, and so I'm very self-aware. Men, overwhelmingly, were blaming everyone else. They're like I don't like that worship leader, I don't like the songs, I do think the lights are too, whatever the volume. They had a long list, and that was also fascinating, but here's something that I want to say to you, because you asked okay, when we had people, these worship leaders and musicians who joined me for this webinar, I took the chance to ask them hey, as you're signing up for this webinar, what's on your mind? 23:24 I mean, what is a hurdle, what's a struggle, as you're thinking about your own church Small, large, different backgrounds, different denominations, different geographical what are you wrestling with as it pertains to congregational singing and engagement? Just what's on top of mind. This was shocking to me Overwhelmingly. The top answer was I am signing up for this webinar because in my church I am concerned or I am wanting to address men singing and in their case, men were not singing. Singing I don't have all of the like, I don't have all the answers for like, okay, how do you get men to sing, but it just the way that it was falling along gender lines was really fascinating to me and it kind of woke me up to make sure that we're addressing that in some way. Let's at least have some more dialogue about it. 24:21 - Speaker 3 Wow. Well, I'm sure we've only scratched the surface of everything that's in this webinar, but you've got me intrigued, Robbie. This is something that I'm going to be checking out because I care as a leader at my church. I care a lot about what's going on and I think you know I would personally love to learn more. Okay, so, taking a step back, you serve in your local church, Robbie, and you've got this broader role in the body of Christ with the worship initiative and other things you're doing. What have you learned about ministry? You know having this like sort of local and broader role. 24:57 - Speaker 1 Yeah, and to be clear, I don't serve on any kind of paid ministry staff, but I get to lead worship. We have an amazing worship ministry and so occasionally they ask me to come up and join them, but I've spent my life I really have spent most of my adult life in some type of ministry. Is that the role of worship leader? And I'm talking about musical worship here? Okay, the role of a musical worship leader. It must, number one, it must be accompanied by the role of a worship teacher. In other words, great worship leaders must be great worship teachers. 25:45 I think oftentimes, musicians, people like me, just assume that the Sunday morning congregation has showed up and they're ready to go. They know what the Bible says about worship, they understand the Psalms, they understand the history of singing in the church, they understand why it's important. Some people do, yes, but I think many of our congregants actually show up and need the reminders, as you and I do. Great worship leaders need to be great worship teachers. That's the first thing that I have learned over and over again. Secondly, I have been reminded again and again about the importance of liturgy, again and again about the importance of liturgy, and I'm not referring to liturgical settings or liturgical backgrounds or a style of worship. I am referring to as Brian Chappell, who wrote the book Christ-Centered Worship, he calls it. 26:39 What story are you telling? Liturgy tells a story. What story are worship leaders telling with the elements of worship? We would suggest and hope and pray that it's the gospel story, that it's Christ-centered, but oftentimes I look back at my own set list and I go. You know, the story was somewhat incomplete and so I want to remind worship leaders, teams, musicians, the church at large we are telling a story with the flow, with the elements, with the songs, with the sacraments, with the sermon. All of it combines to tell a story. Let's tell the gospel story, let's be intentional with that and, if so, that informs the decisions that I now make. Let's be great worship teachers and let's be great gospel storytellers in our churches. It's vital. 27:35 - Speaker 3 Wow, Robbie, that's so beautiful and it's a great segue into my next question. So we've talked about teaching and leading and church planting and all the things that you've been doing to serve, but we haven't talked about songwriting yet. I'd love to talk a little bit about that. What's your songwriting process like? 27:56 - Speaker 1 That's amazing. Well, you know, these days I lead a large team at the Worship Initiative and they don't let me write as much as I would like to. But I've spent three decades getting to write songs. I would like to, but I've spent three decades getting to write songs. And if I say I'm fascinated with songwriting, I hope that makes sense. Even three decades later, it feels like a mystery to me. 28:18 And scripture is filled with the suggestion of new songs. Sing a new song. Revelation 5 says there's actually a new song, and it's not necessarily the newness that's novel. It's actually the new revelation that Jesus is the fulfillment of all of the singing and songs in Scripture. But we somehow get invited to create and again to retell the gospel story in songwriting. And so I want to take your question and I want to also answer it by telling you how we encourage churches to consider writing together. 28:54 And I think before I do that, I also want to just caution. You know, worship music and worship songs has become an industry. There's been a commercialization, and I have to be very aware of our role in that, and I don't think it's all bad. I think the Lord has used industry and ways to get songs into the life of churches all over the world. There's some things to be celebrated there, but I also think it's taken some of the joy of just a small local church to just say, hey, God may want to give you a song to sing from the sermons that your pastors are preaching, from the life that's being lived in your community, from the gathering of small groups of musicians, and it may never be heard by anyone else but man. I promise you it will be worth it. And so, not to skirt your question, because I definitely have a process, but I want to make sure I just tell you that we are passionate around it. By the way, we call it Writers. Well, it's a portion of our training platform that just says to any local church small, large, hey, would you consider writing a song? 29:59 Let me tell you one quick story, if I can. Alicia, last year we had the idea let's put our money where our mouth is, let's tell churches everywhere, if you wrote a song with your team, not to be famous, not to have the song, none of that nonsense but just if you wrote a song, send it to us. We'd love to give you some feedback so that you can continue to grow as a songwriter and I didn't know I thought we might get dozens of songs. No, in 24 hours we got over 500 songs. Wow of songs. No, in 24 hours we got over 500 songs. And so I said hold on, okay, pause this. We got to listen to all these songs, just no more. 30:34 What was amazing to me, most of those churches were not big churches. Most of those churches don't have big budgets. Most of those churches don't have professional songwriters. But I remember listening to a song from a young man in Iowa and he just said hey, it's me and one other gal in our church. We wrote this song together and it deeply moved me. It was beautiful, it was biblical and they were singing it with their church and I thought that's what we're about. If you're going to ask me about songwriting, I want to take us back just to say to anybody who's listening sing a new song, unto the Lord. It doesn't have to be perfect and polished and ready for the radio or for streaming. Sing it, write it, invite your church to sing it. I promise the Lord will be honored in that. 31:27 - Speaker 3 Wow, what a beautiful encouragement. I'm glad you took us in this direction because I think I needed to hear it. At my church we have some very talented songwriters, artists, musicians, and they have written some songs and you know there have been times where, you know, we've had to discern like, is this what we should be doing and what should we do with this song? And you know, at the end of the day, sing a new song. I mean, it is beautiful and it is good and yeah, that's just a really great encouragement. Thank you, Robbie. 32:00 - Speaker 1 Yeah, you got it. 32:01 - Speaker 3 I have, I guess, a more practical question about songwriting, and this is maybe for some young songwriters out there. When you do songwriting, when you spend your time and your energy doing it, as beautiful as it is, it doesn't necessarily pay the bills. What kind of advice do you give to young artists who are struggling with that tension right between like what they feel called by the Lord to do versus making a living? Oh, Robbie, you're still on mute. 32:34 - Speaker 1 Oh, sorry, I was muted. Sorry about that. It's a great question and I won't skirt it this time, okay. So, yeah, you know, I think first of all you mentioned kind of making a living songwriting. Those two go hand in hand. It's no news to anybody listening, just the disruption in the music business over the last 20 years streaming. But I actually think that that has been a positive for songwriters. 33:00 Now let me explain to you. If there's no money in it, why would anybody write a song? I think it's given us a chance to get back to the purity of songwriting. First of all, anybody who's ever written a song, if they tell you they know for sure that it's a great song, I think they're lying to you. I mean, most people just go, I don't know. It's such a mystery. And then, in songs that the church sings broadly, good luck trying to predict these things. And so I would say some of the pressure is off. Hey, young songwriter, write because you love it. Let me also say take the chance to write with others. 33:43 Of course, all of us would probably write songs on our own occasionally, but around here we just advocate for writing in community. There are things, Alicia, that you'll bring to me that will sharpen me. There are things that I might bring that might sharpen you. If we add a third person, they have a different perspective. We're looking at God's word. We're doing this together. It's difficult, it's harder work. I think it's more rewarding. And so one bit of practical counsel is if you are a songwriter and you primarily have written by yourself, find some people in your area, find some people in your community. One last thought on this is I was a part of a church in Houston, texas, years ago. Robert was the name of the drummer. Okay, I'm also a Robert. They call me Robbie. I'm a Robert. Robert was the name of the drummer. 34:34 - Speaker 3 Are you guys, brothers? 34:36 - Speaker 1 We're not yet Just kidding. Shane and Shane, they're brothers, right, robert and Robert. But Robert raised his hand when we were talking about songwriting. He's like look, I'm not a songwriter, I'm a drummer. I actually own a roofing company. I'm just a volunteer at the church. Okay, don't get me involved in songwriting. 34:59 What happened was, we did get him involved and we found out and he found out that the Lord's really gifted him. Now does he sit down and write all of the lyrics and come up with all the melodies and craft it in a way and arrange it and sing it himself? No, what Robert discovered was he had a seat at the songwriting table that was unique and was different than mine and different than somebody else, and he was actually really good at curating what was happening in the room. I call that like the curator seat, like he could get a sense. Oh, I hear that melody, I hear that lyric, I'm taking notes here. 35:32 And then he would chime in and say, hey, remember a couple, a little bit ago you mentioned this, and how about we pull it together? And he was curating. He's written on dozens of songs now. So I say to anyone listening actually you don't even have to be a musician, the Lord may have given you a seat at the songwriting table that you're not accepting, and consider what your role could be right in community, and it is so rewarding you will not regret it. 36:00 - Speaker 3 Wow, that's so good and it definitely resonates here at Faithly. One of the reasons we built Faithly was for ministry leaders to do it together, to not be so isolated and to serve churches and the kingdom together. So I want to ask you now a few questions about sort of ministry, longevity and health, as someone who has served faithfully for three decades. Ministry is beautiful, but it can be exhausting. So what are some of the rhythms and practices that you've relied on when it's gotten hard? 36:36 - Speaker 1 Well, it is the most pressing question Now, again, I'm happy to share my own experience, Alicia, but I interact with probably more worship ministers, maybe, than anybody I mean, maybe somebody else has me beat but just about anybody on the planet and I promise you this is a discussion that comes up over and over again, and it really not only comes up in terms of longevity, but I think what you're asking is at the core of your question is how can we stay healthy and I'm talking healthy spiritually, emotionally, physically, mentally? Ministry is not rocket science, I say this all the time, but it's not rocket science. But it is not simple and it's complex, and I would even suggest that worship ministry has its own level of nuance with the subjectivity of the art form. In other words, I am offering an art form that has such a strong spiritual component I mean, of course rooted in the gospel of Jesus. Both of those things have such weight and, by the way, both of those things elicit very strong response. What I'm getting at is people have very strong opinions about music and about religion. Okay, have very strong opinions about music and about religion, Okay. And so to serve in a role that really is bringing both of those in a church setting. 38:01 It can be exhausting. And so to your question what do we do? And I'll just tell you right now, the average tenure of a worship minister is two and a half years roughly that's the data we've seen from research and other places much lower than most roles on a worship team. And so what do we do? I think it's really what you're asking. How do we avoid that? I don't think it's actually any different than my friend who's a banker. All right, so I have a friend, wayne. He's president of a bank. It's not that different for Wayne than it is for me. Yes, all the nuances of ministry, all the things that I've just said, are demanding. It can be exhausting, but the Bible is clear. The Bible is speaking to all of us. 38:47 How do we approach Sabbath and rest? God designed us to work hard and to rest intentionally. Us to work hard and to rest intentionally. He modeled for us. Six days, he labored and on the seventh God rested. Who am I like, literally? Who am I to think that I somehow don't need that? 39:11 I mean Sabbath, of course is the recognition that he is God, that I am not, and that my role on this planet is to glorify Him and honor Him, and on the Sabbath, I'm going to do so by resting my heart, hands and head. I'm going to have complete rest here. And so, number one we need to rest. And that's a whole other conversation. Maybe for—have me back on, let's talk about rest and Sabbath. Right, I'm going to have complete rest here. And so, number one, we need to rest. And that's a whole other conversation. 39:37 Maybe, for have me back on, let's talk about rest and excitement. Okay, we can't unpack it all right here, but let me give, like, just some real practical advice too. And again, I think this is true for Wayne, the banker, and I think it's true for Robbie, the worship leader, and for Alicia, the podcast host ensure that you have interest in hobbies that are outside of your work, and here's what I mean One of the dangers of doing a job that you love, and I imagine you love your job, Alicia, you're good at it, I do, I love my job. 40:11 This is an exciting time for you guys. You've launched this new platform. I love my job. I mean, I'll be honest with you. I woke up in the middle of the night last night, around 4 am, and I'm thinking about work. I love it. That is a gift from the Lord, but it's also a I have to be cautious, because I have a family, I have a body, I am, I'm finite, my energy is not endless, and so the reason I say find something that you love outside of your work. It is one of the ways I think the Lord invites me into Sabbath. I actually love this is crazy. 40:55 I love to do yard. I mow my yard. You live in New York City. You probably don't have a yard to mow, okay, but I have a yard. I live in Texas. All right, we got there. I love to do that. I work with my mind primarily a lot of this, which means I'm going to choose to Sabbath with my hands. Is it a hobby? Maybe yard work's not my hobby, but I actually enjoy just being outside, being on the ground, in the garden, like doing something with my hands. And if you I would imagine the gentleman who you know might work in landscaping for a living probably does not Sabbath. 41:31 - Speaker 3 Maybe he's songwriting, Robbie. 41:32 - Speaker 1 He's writing songs. Maybe he's got a podcast right. I think it's important for Wayne the banker, Alicia the podcast host, Robbie the worship leader find something outside of your work. I think it's one of the ways God invites you in to enjoy Him. I mean, you know the Westminster Catechism. What is the chief aim of man? To glorify God and to enjoy Him forever. Right, and I think that is never more true when we work hard and we rest with great intention. Let's glorify Him and let's rest and enjoy Him. 42:10 - Speaker 3 There is so much that I love about what you said. 42:12 Like you said, we don't have time to unpack it all, but I will just call out one thing, which is, having had so many conversations with ministry leaders, I think it is something that I feel like ministry and really this applies to like any kind of sort of sector or group of people. If it's all you've done, I think it can be easy to think like these are problems or things that only ministry leaders struggle with. Right, like, if you're a nurse, you might think some of your challenges are things that only people who are nurses struggle with. But I love what you said about, like Wayne the banker and you know, Robbie the worship leader. Like there, there are some things that are sort of common across those of us who are walking in our purpose, and actually Alicia used to be a banker for almost 20 years before she became a podcast host and she serves at her church, and so really, like, the things that you're talking about can be applied universally. However God has called you, whatever your day-to-day job is. 43:12 - Speaker 1 Oh, I love that and I mean I couldn't have made that up. Alicia the banker and the that's right. 43:20 - Speaker 3 You, literally, you picked every aspect of what the Lord has called me to. But again, just to say it again, I think the lessons and how the Lord calls us to live and to walk in our purpose it's really, it's universal across our lives and our callings. 43:39 - Speaker 1 Hey Alicia, can I just tie that to one more thing? 43:42 - Speaker 3 Yeah, please. 43:44 - Speaker 1 I think in the work that we do, I mean, I spend all day, every day, thinking and talking about singing and sometimes and you know I'll try not to go too far with this, but sometimes we think singing is an exclusive club. It actually is just for Robbie the worship leader or whoever the singers are. And I promise you I mentioned my dear friend Wayne. He is not a quote, unquote singer. Okay, I love love and we don't live in the same city anymore, but I love when I got to be in the same room with him to worship together, because when he sings and worships I tend to believe and you know, I just tend to believe. 44:27 The Lord is just as thrilled with Wayne the singer as he is with Robbie the worship leader, whoever the professional singers are. I think he delights in the praises of his people. And so I want to tie this back to singing, because our mission is not just to get the singers to sing God's word. Our mission is to get the bankers and the podcast hosts and anybody else out there who says, yes, I want to worship and respond to the goodness and greatness of God. And the scriptures are just hacked 400 mentions of singing, 50 direct commands. By the way, it's a commandment, one of the most commanded acts in scripture. I think do not fear actually is the most commanded thing that we see in scripture which is amazing. 45:20 Scripture is right up there. Singing is right up there in scripture. So I want to make sure we say before we get off this interview this applies to singing. All are invited to sing and respond to the goodness and greatness of God. 45:32 - Speaker 3 Wow, that's so beautiful. Well, Robbie, we are coming up on time, so maybe we can end it with this final question, which is, if you can encourage the pastors and worship leaders and ministry leaders who are listening right now, what's one thing that you would say to them? 45:51 - Speaker 1 I think, if I had to boil this down, is to say your ministry is not dependent on your skill sets. Has the Lord gifted you? Yes. Has the Lord placed you in this time and in this season? Yes. Has he potentially put you in a local church somewhere? Praise God, yes, but we are dependent on him. Be dependent on him. 46:21 I was talking to a leader a couple of days ago who said we showed up on Sunday morning, the entire sound system, everything was broken. You know like the sound system and the lights weren't. It was like literally. You know like the sound system and and the lights were. It was like literally, you know. He even said like it felt like spiritual warfare, and I don't doubt that it was, and I was like, oh, it's so stressful, but he goes, he goes. 46:47 The incredible part was we prayed more that Sunday morning than we have in years. We were now fully dependent on the Lord. Lord, we cannot literally cannot do this without you. Some Sundays we act as if we can do this without you. Everything's working, everything's great, and we just coast through. 47:07 And I just say that you ministry leader, I don't pray that your lights go out or your sound system doesn't work. I'm not praying that over you, but I am praying for full dependence on God and especially if you are in worship ministry in any capacity a volunteer, bivocational oh my goodness, you could just sing songs every week for the rest of your life, but ask the Spirit of God to do what you couldn't do. Let's be dependent on Him. Let's allow our ministries to be rooted in the truth and dependent on God, and I just I need that reminder right now. I mean that work that we do at Worship Initiative. I told our team yesterday we were in Psalm 90, Alicia, psalm 90, the prayer of Moses teach me to number my days that I may gain a heart of wisdom. And basically what Moses goes on to say is let the work of our hands not be in vain and fully dependent on me. This work is in vain, fully dependent on God. He is numbering our days with great, great intention. I pray that over any ministry leader who's listening. 48:14 - Speaker 3 Thank you. That is so beautiful. Are you sure you're not also a preacher, Robbie? 48:20 - Speaker 1 You know they do have me out speaking and preaching every now and then, all right. 48:23 - Speaker 3 I had a feeling. Well, I will say amen to all of that. Thank you, Robbie, so much for sharing your time and your vision, and I feel like we really only scratched the surface, and so I will look forward to that next conversation, Robbie. 48:39 - Speaker 1 Thank you, Alicia. This has been such a joy. So grateful for you. 48:43 - Speaker 2 Thank you. Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. The Faithly digital platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection, foster collaboration and promote growth within the church and ministry space. Remember to subscribe, rate the church and ministry space. Remember to subscribe, rate and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you. Stay tuned for more uplifting tales from the front lines of ministry on the Faithly Podcast. Stay bold, stay faithful and never underestimate the power of your own story.