Three Generations of Pastors - Alex Williams

00:01 - Speaker 1 I also had to be careful not to be so judgmental on my grandparents because I also understood that it was a different time and also it was also a different time socio-economically. So whereas in, you know, the 60s and 70s, you know people in the African-American context weren't really affluent, didn't really have many opportunities. So when they gave all their time, they tithed and gave, gave their best to the church, they gave their time, their effort, their resources to the church. The pastor really felt the ownership of ensuring that people are progressing, people are moving forward, people are healthy, people have provision and so whatever we need to do, let's just make it happen. But we're in a much different time. Hey, welcome. My name is Alex Williams. I am a pastor of the Institutional International Ministries Church, aka Institutional Church of God in Christ, downtown Brooklyn, new York. I'm a community leader, faith liaison and also this is my faith lead story. 00:55 - Speaker 2 Welcome to Faithly Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life. Join us as we delve into their challenges, moments of encouragement and answered prayers. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. Learn more at faithlyco. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired as we unveil the heart of faith through stories from the front lines of ministry. On the Faithly Stories podcast. 01:37 - Speaker 3 Could you tell me how your faith journey started? 01:39 - Speaker 1 Yes, so I'm a third generation pastor on both sides of my family. So both of my grandfathers my maternal and paternal grandfathers were both, like bishops, pastors in the Pentecostal context, and my dad was a pastor. My mom is a pastor, my brothers are pastors, my uncles are pastors, so literally I had no escape. I tried, but no escape, but I didn't? 02:02 - Speaker 3 it clearly didn't fare out too well. Well, that's what we call failing forward. Wait, so did you know your maternal grandfather was a pastor when you were dating your wife? 02:11 - Speaker 1 So yeah, so well, let me clarify. My mom's father was a bishop and then my dad's father was a bishop. So when my parents met, they were both PKs, pastor's kids, and they met, had me, and I grew up in my grandfather's church in Jersey and then, when I turned about 12 or 13, I joined institutional, which was my grandfather and my dad's church. 02:37 - Speaker 3 Okay, thanks for the clarification. Yes, so I feel like you're in a unique situation to answer this question. What was it like being a grandchild of a pastor and then growing up realizing oh wait, my parents are also pastors, you know, because? A lot of times people have that PK experience but not like the grand PK experience. 02:58 - Speaker 1 Yeah, it's actually a pretty unique question and a unique context in that, because my parents were pastor's kids and the type of context church context that they grew up in there was also a huge awareness of what they carried, the weight of their family name, the weight of their responsibilities, and so inadvertently it was kind of impressed upon us as well. But then also there also were some awarenesses that they had or some experiences that they had that they didn't want to repeat with me. So there were some pros and cons in that respect. So they understood what I went through, but because of their sacrifice that they had to make as PKs, the same expectation was kind of placed on myself. You know what I mean. 03:38 - Speaker 3 So what were some of the differences between your grandparents and your parents, like expectations and pros? 03:43 - Speaker 1 and cons. Sure, my grandparents were highly traditional, many of them they were first-generation believers, first-generation pastors and leaders. So the expectation was very high and although their attempt and their sincerity was there in terms of their faith, obviously, if you're in the Pentecostal context in those early years kind of dogmatic in a sense. I'm highly dogmatic and really dedicated to the context in which they were raised. My parents were a bit more liberal. They listened to music outside of gospel music, so I got a little bit of that. They weren't as dogmatic. 04:16 We were able to go to the movies. My grandparents didn't allow my parents to go to the movies and just certain things that were just kind of outside of the traditional context that my parents gave me the leeway to do. They're a bit more exposed to the world. So my father traveled a lot. The choir that my church came out of they travel internationally, all around the world. So my dad's been to Japan and Russia and Paris and Brazil and all over the world and so because of that I was able when I was young to travel a lot to Greece and Switzerland and just different places that the choir traveled. So it was a great experience in that respect. 04:51 - Speaker 3 So what are some of the things that you do differently than your parents or like your understanding of parenting? 04:57 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I've taken it several degrees further. The first thing that I did when becoming a pastor was changing the name of our ministry and we left the Kojic tradition celebrate all of its roots and all of the things that I learned and some of the principles that I still carry with me. But I knew that the context that the Lord called me to was much broader than just a denomination, and I really kind of find when you see a Baptist name on a church or AME or Pentecostal, whatever the context of the church is, it kind of isolates some people. So I knew that the Lord was calling me to something broader, that my community that I was taking on and pastoring in was ever-changing and growing, expanding and becoming more diverse, and so I knew that the Lord wanted to expand the ministry. 05:44 In terms of me personally, I'm a pastor that has earrings. I think that would have been controversial. My grandparents would be rolling over in their green. Yeah, we have all different people that kind of attend our churches. Just the culture is, people come as you are, they dress as you are, and I kind of apply that also to our household. Of course we have order in our household, but one of the things that I want to be very clear is not to impose any of my I want to say principles. I think that principles and values should transfer down and transfer forward, but I don't want to say, okay, because I'm a pastor, my son has to be a pastor, you know, don't want to place those heavy expectations on him because in that regard he would be fourth generation and that's tough to carry the weight of that. 06:28 - Speaker 3 Yeah, I would say there's a difference between principles and preferences. 06:31 - Speaker 1 Yeah, that's, that's a great point. Yeah, indeed, I mean, I think that all of us are going to have our preferences. One of the things even with my calling, I wanted to make sure that, just because my dad was a cop, I wasn't a cop, or he a chef me be a chef. You know, when it came down to my vocation, wanted to make sure that it was really something that the Lord called me to, because I've seen everything, danny, like I've witnessed everything. 06:53 My parents and my grandparents were the type of people who, when people would get saved in their church, if they had a rough pass, like they would have quarters for them, they would live with them. You know, under the context with a pastor was you know everything, not just your pastor, but your doctor, your cosigner, your financial advisor, your psychiatrist, you know your pastor was everything back then. And so my grandparents would house people, they would support people financially and I'm not saying that we shouldn't still do that but in a way that there were no boundaries between house and church and state right, so there were no lack of boundaries in that respect. And so, yeah, I want to make sure that we keep a healthy balance between the two, with my wife and I versus the traditions that I came from. 07:36 - Speaker 3 Yeah, I think like something that, like, I forget all the time is that people are doing the best within their context. People are doing the best within their context because, just because someone did it like a certain way back in the day, we're living literally in a different time and different technology and different understandings of people and, like more people you know. So, like I think healthy boundaries are a good thing, and one thing like I think I repeated on the podcast is there are differences between boundaries like borders and walls. Right, like borders are good things, but walls is like, oh, I want to keep you out, but borders is like, hey, like this is so that we stay safe. 08:10 - Speaker 1 Exactly, exactly, yeah, and I've seen in my experience either certain aspects of my family or just outside of my family. I've seen how the church has become the pastor's mistress at times, how the church, if not governed correctly, could take priority over the family, and you can't. It's hard to distinguish where one begins and where the other ends. And so you know, the healthy boundary allows us to place alignment in terms of God's order and it also helps us to have a healthy relationship with God's church. You know, and I think that if we're not having those boundaries and establishing those, those boundaries, we have an unhealthy relationship with the church, where it becomes toxic yeah, my hot take is uh I think it comes out of ego of the messiah complex, and I say that because I had it so I think. 08:56 - Speaker 3 You know we all go through it. But you realize like, oh, I need to be faithful to the small little circle that god is placing my life and these people are an extension to that, but they're not like within my circle, you know. 09:07 - Speaker 1 Sure, and it's pretty interesting that you say that I also had to be careful not to be so judgmental on my grandparents, because I also understood that it was a different time and also it was also a different time socioeconomically. So, whereas in you know, the 60s and 60s and 70s, people in the African-American context weren't really affluential, didn't really have many opportunities. So when they gave all their time, they tithed and they gave their best to the church, they gave their time, their effort, their resources to the church. The pastor really felt the ownership of ensuring that people are progressing, people are moving forward, people are healthy, people have provision and so whatever we need to do, let's just make it happen. But we're in a much different time in that there are definitely much more resources outside of the church context and we understood some of the damaging effects of operating in that way. 10:00 - Speaker 3 Yeah, so like my parents, like they came from Korea, like in the early 80s, and like they got saved here, like they went to church. But I always say, like the Korean church is more like a community center. Right, and I don't say that in a bad way, I think we should like understand the heart and follow the heart, because, again, they just really wanted to care for their people because they were being oppressed or like put down socioeconomically. But I think it's okay to push back on the methodology, right, it's just like, oh yeah, we can do the same thing but in a different way. 10:30 - Speaker 1 Yeah, no, definitely it's important. You know, we grow older and we learn better and we try to be much more efficient and we try to become wiser without decisions and understand the damaging effect of some of the great intention that they had. 10:44 - Speaker 3 So this is like the longest I went without, like starting from the beginning, which is great, this is great context, you know. So, like growing up in a household where, like, your grandparents are like pastors, like your parents are pastors, like and I get the whole like I don't want to be a pastor because I don't want to be in the family business, like how did you come to faith? Like was it at a young age, at an older age, and then like what was the rebelliousness? 11:10 - Speaker 1 Sure, sure, it's pretty funny that you say that. So yeah, most of my life, especially adolescent teenage years, early young adult years, have been the fight against my last name, the fight for identity. You know, that's really kind of where the fight was, and so I got saved when I was 12. Never forget, it was actually Thanksgiving service, so coming up on an anniversary, just finished celebrating an anniversary there. But of course, when I went into high school more so college my rebellion was not in me kind of operating in a way that was outlandish or brought any shame to my parents' name. 11:44 I understood the weight of the assignment to be a pastor's kid in terms of a model somewhat, but intellectually I would, just, I would be all over the place, I would study everything, I would ask questions. Theologically, you know, there were some aspects that I was going into. I'm studying outside of the Christian context new age. You know belief systems, different things outside of the Christian context and, to be honest, my parents really didn't have an answer for it because I understood their context, I understood the Bible very well, but I also had all of this new information that was coming to me and you know that compiled with a lot of deaths. In my family, when we prayed for healing, I had three aunts that passed away from cancer and, the minimum of five years apart, grandparents. You know, those foundational pillars passed away. And so I really struggled with my faith, really struggled to. You know, if a God that we pray to doesn't answer our prayers, then what's the point? You know, if his will is going to be done either way, then what's the point of being committed to prayer or to the faith if it really merits very little? But I actually came to a place where I had just a revelation and encounter with the Lord through my own prayer time and the Lord really had a visitation in my bedroom and it was great because it was outside of the church context room. And it was great because it was outside of the church context Because when you're a PK or a pastor's kid, you struggle to distinguish between the spiritual aspect and community aspect. 13:12 Or if my father's preaching or giving me a prophetic word, or however he's used in part to me, I don't know if that's dad or pastor, it's hard to kind of distinguish the two. So it was great that the Lord had to have his own encounter with me and every time the Lord is. I've had a great encounter with the Lord where he has spoken to me and gave me vision for the future, or giving me instruction or what to do, or even pastoring, Even after I got gave my life to the Lord, recommitted, served for a while. When my dad said, you know, I believe the Lord called you to this, the Lord For a while. When my dad said, you know, I believe the Lord called you to this, the Lord had to show me himself. And so every encounter, every major encounter that I've had with the Lord, has been personal and outside of the influence, specifically, of my father, because the Lord knew that I needed to hear his voice and not confuse that with the voice of my dad or my mom. 14:01 - Speaker 3 Yeah, that's something like I'm also realizing this year. So I was a pastor for 10 years and then I'm coming out more of like a reform tradition, which is like the polar opposite of your childhood experience. But I grew up quasi charismatic. But like I realized, like indoctrination, there's just like this double edged sword. We call it education or like teaching, but actually it's just indoctrination. And I'm not saying it's like literally a bad thing. I think it becomes a bad thing when, like for me, it was like oh, this is the truth and you better believe this and there's no way to like test it or like their tests are like self-fulfilling prophecies, you know of their own doctrine. And then I realized, like like two years ago, like I was like put in a corner just personally, and so I was like, okay, I'm going, don't know anything right, and I just started with jesus. And then I went to like quantum physics and like history and like new age stuff and like any like I went all over the place and I realized, when you're on this journey and you like understand jesus in a personal way through the scriptures, there is a voice right, there is a language of right, there is a language of like right and this sounds kind of like new agey, but like for me it is an experience of like this feels right to me, right, and the confidence for me, for the feeling was like it feels right because I feel more connected to Jesus, you know, and when I read the scriptures it's like more alive. 15:19 Yeah, and the reason why I bring this up is because I have another hot take and I actually want to get your thoughts on this is that for the longest time I grew up in church thinking there's a pastor, he's preaching, he's teaching us the truth and all this stuff. But when I read the Gospels I listen to the Gospels a lot. Jesus is like you have one father, you have one teacher, the Holy Spirit will teach you. And I feel like we've lost this connection, sometimes out of fear of like, oh, I'll teach you this and this is what I'm experiencing, but you need to go to the Lord and find out what you're hearing and we'll come tested with each other. And I feel like we don't have that kind of model of discipleship. It's always just this authoritarian. I'm here to tell you what the truth is and you better follow it. So what are your thoughts on that? 16:09 - Speaker 1 So, danny, it's so funny that you asked me that I was on a podcast, I mean on a panel last week, podcast style panel last week, and one of the things that kind of invoked and I mentioned this during that telecast is that I think that a lot of church people are malnourished because they only eat on Sundays, and whether it is ego, whether it is lack of self-awareness, I think that many pastors don't really empower people to do discipleship, to know the Lord for themselves, and whether that keeps their churches full, the tithing buckets full I don't know if people still use tithing buckets, but it keeps the church packed or full, or whether it's just ignorance. Right, to properly disciple somebody means to draw them closer to the Lord, and whether the voice that the pastor or the shepherd should yield should be the voice of guidance. I mean Ephesians 4 says that he calls some apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers for the building of the body, so that we're mature, we're not confused by every wind and doctrine. And so there is that guiding light, that guiding voice and those anchors right the anchors and ensure that we don't go too far. And so that's exactly correct. And I believe that the importance of the fivefold ministry gift imperative to the maturing of the body of Christ. But I do believe that if our people are not really empowered to know the Lord for themselves or really empowered to study the word for themselves, then we haven't positioned them well enough to really succeed in their Christian walk. 17:31 The pandemic was literally a moment of revelation where many people were so lost. Many Christians were so lost because the churches closed down. Some pastors were great at streaming, some didn't, and some people, many Christians, were so lost because they had no direction, they had nowhere to go. Many pastors passed away and, just like my dad, my past pastor in the pandemic, a lot of people were just solely lost, and that was indicative of the lack of training and preparation that pastors and shepherds are giving to the sheep. 18:00 - Speaker 3 Yeah, I completely agree with you. My theory I'm more like a pessimistic figure, like you can push back, but my, my thought is like, again, I think it was more of like this fear of like, oh, I don't want to like lose my kids, to like the world, so like I'm going to create these constraints, but it was like a method of control and that's something I'm like realizing more and more. Is that like, how can we create a safe space where we can foster trust over control? Right, and even like guidance. I see more guidance as like a direction of like, hey, you're going the wrong way, but like the prodigal son, I tell people like, if they're on the wrong way, tell them to go faster because it's a dead end anyway and hopefully they'll run back. So what are your thoughts? 18:42 - Speaker 1 So I actually have something that I think is pretty cool to also assess, I think, from a psychological, sociological perspective. It is also the thinking that you have, I think is apropos and I think you're on par. I don't think that you're far-reaching or even new age, but I also think it is a product. The thinking and the ideology is a product of the time. Think about in the 70s, the 60s, you would believe a president If a presidential candidate got up and said something to you and said that these are the numbers or that this is what's trending or this is what's happening abroad, you would just believe them, authority, figure, state. 19:26 And today we're very much a pessimistic society. We don't trust our government, we don't trust educational institutions, we don't trust colleges, we don't trust many people, don't trust churches, and we have so much information at our fingertips that we need to adjust our model to lead people to the truth, not to force the truth. Because if you lead people to the truth, then people will have the realization that I came to this to myself. I've come to know God for myself and I've had assistance kind of creating the foundation for me. But forcing the truth it will not be sustainable. We're just not that generation anymore. 19:59 - Speaker 3 I also think it's just human nature for us to rebel against like any authority right. Whether it's good or bad. So like, like I think that always needs to be in the back of the mind. So that's a good transition to like. So you like encounter the lord, and at this point are you still like being like no, I don't, I'm never gonna be a pastor or like what happened? 20:17 - Speaker 1 so, uh, it was the worst thing in the world that I told my father that I had an encounter with the lord, because he's like okay minister. 20:23 I was like, okay, great, I was happy behind the drums, playing the drums and just being a musician you know, every pastor's kid plays some type of instrument or you're given something to do so so like it was the worst thing in the world told my father, really fully dedicated. It was like minister, elder, I was like where did these titles come from? All of a sudden I'm ordained and I'm wearing a collar and I'm just like what's happening? But in terms of pastoring soarently, my other siblings are pastors as well. My dad I'm the child of my dad's second marriage, but in his first marriage all of his kids well, out of three, two of them are pastors in the gospel community. And so for the youngest to be the pastor, that wasn't expected. It was expected maybe the others would take the church. And my father said for two years, three years he was dealing with this that no, it's the youngest guy who's going to succeed me. 21:10 And I just didn't. Just didn't sit well with me. It didn't sit well with me with how he did. It Didn't sit well with me with kind of just the process of it all Right, and then also the Lord didn't tell me. So you know, in classic Alex fashion. I just went on a fast and said, hey, I can't accept this assignment unless the Lord tells me, like this is a lifelong assignment and I've seen it close up, like it's not, like I have some dream and passion of pastoring. I see the seat and I see the pulpit. I'm just like let's go. And I'm super excited to do this because I see all the sacrifice I see, you know, my parents and grandparents have given to people who walk away from them, who kind of mistreat them. I've experienced it all. Church hurt is. You know, a lot of people in the pews talk about this concept of church hurt. There's no church hurt like a pastor being hurt. You know, when they give their all, when they're sincere, like really good leaders and they give their all, they're kind of burnt by those same people they give to. And so I had a really jaded view of pastoring and so I had a really jaded view of pastoring and so I went in prayer. I had, like this crazy Danny, like had this crazy Ezekiel-like experience. 22:15 I was taken from my room and shown a new vision of the church. I saw the church with diverse faces. I was on a pulpit so diverse faces. So the church reconstructed and then saw these initials that said I am Came up out of the vision. I said what is this? Maybe I need to eat something. I wouldn't be fasting too long, whatever, whatever is happening to me. But the Lord revealed to me like the initials institutional, international ministries matched what I saw in the vision. 22:36 So I just waited a little bit. Then I let my father know. I said, okay, the Lord showed me this vision, but there's something I'm going to have to do that's controversial. Two things I'm going to have to if I'm going to accept this calling. I'm going to have to change the name of the church and I'm going to have to leave our denomination. And our church is a legacy church, so there's like 50 churches that were groomed. One of our mentors, reverend AR Bernard, ccc. Ar Bernard, was groomed by my grandfather. He came out of our church and so, like he kind of speaks to the weight of that place. So to leave Kojic, change the name was blasphemy, but I had the audacity a little bit of ignorance and disobedience to do so and my father said you know, if that's what the Lord gave you, so in 2017, we officially, you know, changed everything under his leadership and then he transitioned me to pastoring in 2019. So it's been a roller coaster, to say the least. 23:27 - Speaker 3 To be kind, there's a saying courage is when you know the hard and painful thing and you do it anyway. Yeah, but that's also the same definition for foolish, and that's why life is hard. 23:38 - Speaker 1 That's what I'm saying. It's a little bit ignorance, faith, you know. However you want to call it, Depending on who you're speaking to, they'll give it one of those labels. 23:46 - Speaker 3 But that's why I love the fact that you fasted and you literally wanted to hear from the Lord, right, because I now I'm a firm believer in hearing God's voice At this point. I've never heard it audibly, but just this assurance. You know, there's no way I'm going to do this unless he's going to bless it, and that's like the only incentive I have, because I've read Jonah way too much. I'm like, nope, I have to do this, okay let's go. 24:17 - Speaker 1 So, yeah, I totally get it. Yeah, mark Batterson has a really good book on hearing the voice of the Lord. It really impacted me and really finding a still place outside and for me, most people, their context. I need to find my way to the church. For me it's I need to be in solitude, away from the context, because the church context represents not only spirituality but also community and also family. So there's a whole bunch of there's this, this element of family legacy that is kind of tied into all of this, and so that was also another thing. You know, do I want to take on this family legacy and leading this historic church, you know. And also the church is popular because in its Pentecostal charismatic context the church had a huge popular choir, the institutional radio choir. You can Google them. They had 28 albums, gold records, all this stuff really popular choir. 25:00 But where I was taking the church was slightly different. So didn't also didn't want to feel like I was disrespecting the legacy and moving away. But I knew that eventually we'll record again and do all that great stuff. But I knew that we needed to strike out on what the Lord was saying. And yeah, I got a lot of heat, I mean, and that's being kind. And I mean people were hurt, they were angry. They were angry at my dad that they would allow me to do it. You know there was a lot of controversy over changing it. But again, foolishness, courage, regardless of the two, I know that it was what the Lord instructed me to do and the church is thriving and doing well. 25:41 - Speaker 3 Yeah, I consider that like the furnace moment of like all right, I'm going to burn, but like hopefully I won't burn to a crisp and I'll come back okay but it's like uh, the, the men of the hebrew boys that are like, if we die, we die. 25:54 Yeah, yeah, and daniel was like it is what it is. Yeah, and like you're mentioning, like I realize that's also why you need voices inside your bubble and outside your bubble. Again, I'm going through the gospels a lot and like jesus was like you guys are too needy, I need to go to a desolate place where no one knows what I'm doing, and only this year I'm coming to terms that there's a difference and it's more of a perception that one man's loneliness is another man's solitude. 26:20 Yeah, that's so true, and this is where the whole imagery of the Superman and the Fortress of Solitude, where he's talking to his father and we are talking to our father, it's just like, oh, there's this like beautiful thing where, like being alone actually is like a saving grace yeah, I mean jesus, clearly in the text. 26:37 - Speaker 1 He knew the capacity of those who were following him. He knew the capacity of the crowd. So after he would do and feed and teach and impart, he would leave the crowd. He knew the capacity of the 12. He knew the capacity of the three, you know Peter, james and John. When he was crucified there was only one there. You know, the beloved John said, okay, look after my mom. But you know, when he's in the garden he's by himself, just him and his father. And so he knew the capacity of each group and so he had to even place boundaries there. 27:07 - Speaker 3 So what was that process like? So you tell your dad, okay, we're going to change the name and like get out of the denomination. Like what were the steps? Because I think that's a really good story or like a good like case study of like how to transition out of this traditional mindset into a new thing, so like the one last thing is like the theme of like new wine is coming up a lot, and I feel like that's what happened to you guys. You guys created a new wineskin. 27:35 - Speaker 1 Yeah, it was a lot of. It's a case study of what to do and what not to do. So my dad is a classic, charismatic pastor, makes announcements over the pulpit, does that like crazy board meeting. He makes a decision, then tells the board. So, yeah, it's like case study of what not to do, with the me undoing and having to redo and having to do over a lot of the things that he did from you know the churches, when you have a nonprofit status and you have things that need to be governed a certain way, you have to redo certain things. And so it's my story is a case study of what not to do, because my dad was like, kind of like, didn't do, didn't communicate this the right way. So, you know, you also have other people who feel like they're in position to be the next leader and so it caused controversy there. It caused a church split. It was bad. My dad's last four years, just through decisions and just different things, he had about four church splits. And dad's last four years, just through decisions and just different things, he had about four church splits. And so at my grandfather's height, the church had thousands of members. At my dad's height, the church had hundreds of members. 28:34 When I took the church, I had 15 people there, 10, 10, 15 people and so it was literally building and starting over. But now I realized that it was necessary in what we were charting now and it had to. Literally, we really literally needed to hit the reset button. And so it is literally a case study of my dad saying, okay, you're called to do this. He kind of makes an announcement, but there's a church split that happens right before that and it becomes a whole big thing and I take the church and he my dad at the time also was dealing with sickness kidney failure, renal failure so he's also sick, frail, and so my mom is trying to help to navigate she's one of the pastors in the church trying to help navigate me. 29:16 And so for two years between 2017 and 2019, I put a five-point revitalization plan in the church. So we were revitalizing the church. The goal in those next two years because my installation was going to be in 2019 was to revitalize the church legally, administratively, legally, administratively, financially, from a cultural standpoint, and then also spiritually, changing the culture. So it's like turning the soil over, and we saw certain people who were there trying to linger, figuring out what it was going to be. Then most of the people left and so we had a good base of 15 people. And then, when I took the church 2019, the church grew 162 members the first year, which was great. It was like, all right, we're doing well, we're growing. You know, 162 added members the first year hyper growth, great. Then, next year, pandemic hits, my father passes, all this stuff happens, so it becomes haywire and now the church is like really rebuilding, getting back to where the same momentum that we had in 2019. 30:11 So, but yeah, my story is a case study of what not to do in terms of succession and some key areas of what to undo or what to look out for. Or for a person like me who's going to come into this seat, you know, for me to tell somebody make sure these things are in place before you get there. Make sure you know the board is all apart and on the same page. Make sure the board is assembled, having regular meetings. Make sure that there is an actual plan that is ironed out before the congregation. As what does this succession look like? What are the timing? What's the timing of this? What does this mean? And actually having meetings outside of just having church and making announcements, and so, yeah, I could definitely design and build a case study on this exactly. And most lessons you learn based on the failure is not on the successes, so, yeah, yes, that's true. 31:02 - Speaker 3 However, I feel like no one documents it, because it's not a glorified thing of writing down all your failures, but like it's so useful, so like, if you ever like wrote an article on like how you would do it differently, I think it would be amazing. 31:15 - Speaker 1 Yeah, it's so funny I need to. I need to just do an op-ed on it, Just like kind of post it somewhere and kind of figure out exactly how we can make succession something that is not painful. I mean, whether the context is the charismatic church, the evangelical church, the Pentecostal context, we're seeing kind of this, the baton being dropped in every context. You know, you see ego there, jealousy there. You see feuding there, family squabbles there, financial issues there, not really preparing the congregation. 31:44 When you have a church like my church, where you have it's three generations of churches and you have somebody who's been there their entire family's been there for years, you have to prepare them to hear a new voice. You have to prepare them to go into a new direction and then ensure that every change is not happening all at the same time. You know you may want to change the board around one year and then change the service style a different year and then, if you want to, if you're one of those churches that add lights and that you may change it, like doing it all at once is. I have this concept that when you are shepherding on any aspect, you need to lead them, not leave them, and I think that many times with changes and certain things that we do and certain changes that we make in churches, we leave people, we don't leave them. 32:28 - Speaker 3 Yeah, it's funny because I'm reading through 1 Kings and I'm like, oh, it's not a church problem with succession, it's a human problem, because everyone wants to play the Game of Thrones. They're not like literally killing each other, but they're killing reputation and dividing. 32:48 - Speaker 1 Yeah, no, it's real. Uh, first of all, shout out to house of dragon. My wife and I are finishing the second season right now. So we have, I'm catching her up. You know a little bit, but yeah, it's. It's the same concept. Who's going to bat, uh, bend the knee, who's going to kiss the ring? When we actually understand that we're not building empires, we're building god's kingdom, like and I think that's the distinction, that we're not building empires, we're building God's kingdom, and I think that's the distinction. We're not called to build our own empires, we're called to build God's kingdom. And as soon as we get to that place, we'll realize hey, if a member goes to another church, hey we're on the same team. 33:19 Maybe they need something different, maybe I was useful in a certain aspect in their life. Or say, if somebody wants to start their own ministry, or say, if somebody just decides to, hey, I'm moving. Or say, hey, this person mentions, hey, I can't come to the church every day or come every Sunday because I also work. I also do these other things. I think that when we approach, you know, as kingdom, we're not so caught up in membership size and who belongs to us. We're not tagging and associating people with our churches more so, or identifying people or branding people with our denominations or with our name. We're pushing the message of Jesus Christ, but we're claiming the kingdom rather than claiming our church, and I think that we really are. This day and age, we're serving a generation that really seeks to serve the Lord and they're really trying to find Jesus, not to find religion or your church. 34:09 - Speaker 3 That's why I keep bringing up the whole ego thing, because when I heard sheep stealing I'm like they're not your sheep what? They can go wherever they want. What? Maybe they're just a bad shepherd. 34:20 - Speaker 1 It's a real thing. I mean the fact that they say sheep stealing is probably indicative of you know, it's so funny, literally. As we're speaking, I'm going through a process with another pastor where, pretty interesting one of my mentors has really kind of instilled in me the importance of celebrating people who serve in your church, even when they decide to leave. So this one individual this could be a case study as well this one individual they just felt like their time was up in our church and we celebrated them and they honored him because of his years of service. Then he went to join the ministry in Virginia and did well there post-pandemic, you know. He's got a raise on his job up here, decided to take on that role and that job and he's joining our church back again this month and had a conversation with his previous pastor and we just dialogued. 35:06 It was amazing and I don't think I've even had an experience like that, where somebody comes from another church or you know, and we have such a healthy dialogue and I think it's important to kind of see this is the way kingdom should be Like if somebody decides that you know, this church meets their needs or this ministry meets their needs and maybe we don't meet their needs, you know, then we're okay with it. We're not. This is not sheep stealing, this is we're building God's kingdom, and so whatever's going to help propel people to where they need to be, that's where they need to be, you know, and kind of being okay as a shepherd, saying, hey, this church may not be for you and that's okay. You know, there's a, I know a church down the street that I think would be perfect for you. Doing that, I think, shows the true heart of today's pastor. 35:46 - Speaker 3 Yeah, I'm a firm believer now that kingdom doesn't expand, it extends because it's the relationships right. So, like we keep thinking church, church is a building or a location, but it's like no, it's the people gathering there. And one thing like so, like I always wanted to get a church planting. I don't know if that's going to happen, cause, like I see things, which is why I kept saying this is like a joke. So the internet is fine with church people, but I think it's an amazing story when people leave, right, and they work at another church and they're like where did you learn that? Like you're so helpful, and then they refer back to your church. Yeah, that's great. So yeah, and so you're like fostering and that's what discipleship is, like we're raising you up to go out right, right, not to hold you in. 36:28 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean there's too many lids placed on gifts in the kingdom and, yeah, I've heard a lot of horror stories when it comes to church planting. I think that there's too much emphasis and I'm just going to be really transparent I think that there's too much emphasis placed on numbers rather than the quality of the ministry that you're presenting, the quality of discipleship and the quality of the heart. The quality of the heart is something that's not really spoken about. I've gone to a lot of pastoral conferences and there's a lot of models to growth and to grow your numbers, but not really a lot on your heart. I think that one conference that I've attended that's been very unique in that it's 30 for 30. 37:06 I was invited by Reverend Menard and Reverend Adam Dorso. Adam's a great friend of mine and there's kind of like this really great dynamic of the seasoned generation and then the next generation and them colliding and there's a really great nuance and conversation between how to you know from the younger generation how to be more efficient, innovative, but then from the older generation, the impartation to us is not just on how big your church is, because the individuals who are the elder statesmen have seen they build large churches. They've been there, but it's really more so focused on the posture of your heart and how's your family, how's your wife? Your church is big, but how are your kids? You know church is great, but how's your character? You, your church is big, but how are your kids? You know church is great, but how's your character? 37:49 - Speaker 3 You know, and I think that's a different approach and something that I've seen unique in that context, rather than some of the others that I've been a part of- yeah, another hot take is like I'm like so confident now that the kingdom is just vibes, like literally, and it's more of like are you a vibe setter or are you trying to create an environment with lights and sound and structures? But like, like it's because you're cold, you know. 38:12 - Speaker 1 Yeah, it's so crazy because, like, when you study, there's a concept that, hey, he added to the church daily, but you know that wasn't like every person who planting the church blew up. You know he added to the church of Jesus Christ daily. Right, god added to the church his, his church, his body daily. And so when Paul goes to Asia Minor, goes to different places, modern day Turkey, and establishes Corinth or Philippi, like they're all different cultures, they're all different expressions, which is probably why Paul writes to them all differently. He has hardheaded Church of Corinth and then he has such a lighthearted letter written to the Church of Philippi. And so you see these different dynamics and different cultures in these two different places, but also still the leading to the same God and fostering great community within both of these contexts. 39:02 And I think that it's important for us to kind of realize where we are Church in New York City will not be like church in South Carolina, so why compare yourself? You know it will not be like the churches in Atlanta. And so how do you foster and steward the communities that you're in right, what needs are you meeting there that are different from some of the Midwestern states or the Southern states? And that's why it's important to you know in the whole church planting context that you know you take models, you see certain things that may be great, but also really praying and discerning. You know where you are and what are the needs there, because what's working in some other forget what's working in terms of numbers. What's really supporting that community there may not support New York City. 39:42 - Speaker 3 New York City is very unique, so to try to do in New York what they're're doing in ohio, it's not going to be applicable, you know I think one thing that I realized that like I didn't realize until I got out of my conservative bubble is that understanding his tone, the letters, paul's letters, is actually really hard, because I only understood it one way, because that's how I was taught. Yeah, because like paul is like literally like the fourth person of like the Trinity and the conservative side, but he literally says in growth, like it's not about me or Paulus, or like what is going on, just as long as it's about Jesus and like I don't know. So that's why I've just really simplified it. 40:20 Of that name, like there's something like you, like this whole podcast, you started off with a fight for identity, right, and a lot of times identity is just in the name. Like what does that mean? Me, like, and in a person like what, like, what? Like it's like a Pandora's box of like oh, what's inside that name? There's like a history and personality and like baggage and all that. So, yeah, I just come back to like again, this is like my quantum physics rabbit hole of like the singularity is just in a name. And if the name is jesus, like, I find it funny all the time because I listen to joe rogan a lot. He was like jesus christ and like, oh hey, you're in the podcast, just the fact that he's saying the name and someone might take offense to it. But for me I'm like oh yeah, thanks for saying my lord's name in the endorsement. 41:02 You don't even realize it's an endorsement, yeah yeah, I realize like like God is literally using everything and I'm not the savior, so I need to relax and just enjoy this ride. 41:10 - Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. And to that point you know, because I and it's it's this fifth year of me pastoring the five official year has a fifth official year has been such a freeing year. It's the first time, I'll be honest, that I've actually enjoyed pastoring. I've enjoyed seeing the growth of people. I've taken off the pressure of building, because sometimes you go to these conferences, you go to these workshops and you see success stories Especially if you're a pastor on social media it's like a death trap of comparison. You'll literally see what everybody's doing and, secretly, spirit of covenantness is growing. It's already rooted there and it's growing in your heart. But this is the first year like my wife and I are coming. We're having a great time. We're having a blast seeing the spiritual growth of people you know, seeing where they start off here and seeing they're going here and now they're stepping out doing this and now they're witnessing to their family members and now they're launching out doing some things, launching nonprofits or just other things. It's been a blast. And taking that pressure off like my ministry needs to look like this or needs to have this accelerated growth in this amount of time taking that pressure away has really purified my heart as well, and I don't think that many pastors are as like if we were to all be honest, like and transparent. Like the desire for growth has like consumed us and I think that we need to really get back to a pure place of just winning the loss. 42:34 You know, one of the things that we've started doing in our ministry is literally going into the community Like we're claustrophobic by now. Right, this is our fourth and fifth time. Fifth service outside of our church door, just on the street. We did something two months ago called Church on the Court. We went to the housing community Whitman Houses, shut down the basketball court, did service there and then did a basketball tournament there. Like right after we baptized in August outside we just closed down our doors, did something called stoop service, had our neighbors sit on the stoop, baptized in the street, because it's like, let's get out, we're just indoctrinating people preaching to the same people, but there's a whole world of people out there who are not saved. 43:13 There's a whole world of Christians who don't know how to properly witness to somebody the love of Christ, the compassion of Christ. You know, because it's many times seen as dogmatic, legalistic, but how have we really trained and, you know, taught our people to be true disciples of Christ. You know you don't have to have the title of evangelist. You know everybody's not going to be on the train, the subway, preaching, you know. But how can you be a witness on your job, how can you give somebody hope who just had death in their family? How can you mentor a young person and plant a seed there? You know, see that their life will be impacted. Because you took time, you know, and I think that's what it's really about. And so this level of ministry, going in this direction, has been a joyful experience. 43:54 - Speaker 3 You know, every ministry has its highs and lows, stressful days, longer days, but this year I've been having a blast and I haven't been able to say that in the previous years, leading a church, yeah, life principle I have now is like I don't listen to people who have less joy than me, right, because the gospel is literally good news of great joy and I realize, wait, but like I wasn't joyful as a Christian there's still something wrong and I mean I might edit this out. 44:16 But so, between you and me, like there was a period where, like I started over, like I got pissed off because I was like you guys lied to me, right, the version of Christianity that I was taught was so joyless and so indoctrinated and like it was ritual based. Like was so joyless and so indoctrinated and like ritual based, like I was miserable and I always thought I was a problem. But now, on the other side of like just freedom and joy in Christ, like I see, like how everyone else is still in that like bubble of like I have to do this because and this is part I would add in is that I think what's lost in discipleship is that it's not just training, right, it's practice, it's a way of life right, and so everything you described is like no, I'm being a normal person in my job, in my neighborhood, and when I see someone down, I'm giving them life, but not just in a positivity way, but in like, hey, god will make this better, and if not, there is a better story after all of this too. 45:11 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I can't tell you. 45:12 I don't know what it is about, maybe the season of my life or just the community that I'm finding myself in. 45:14 In the last two months I've done three separate trainings in three different areas on discipleship whether it be digital discipleship, whether it be just kind of like outreach initiatives and discipleship and you realize how many people are just either nervous about spreading good news. I've never, you know, there's never been a time where there's good news and you're afraid or have trepidation spreading it. It's because it's been presented to us in such a dogmatic way. But you know, if you know that they're having a sale down at the store or there's a, you know they're giving out free items at a place, you're happy to tell people about this, you know, and salvation is a gift that's free. You know Like you should be thrilled to tell people about it. But I think that because we don't present it the right way, we don't identify those opportunities to really spread the gospel, or maybe we put too much pressure on ourselves to be theologians when in actuality, good news doesn't take much. It takes honesty, truth, transparency and boldness and, most of all, love and compassion. 46:12 - Speaker 3 That length really makes you slow down into consumable chunks At the end of the day, like Jesus has hung out with like 12 dudes you know for three and a half years. You know so like I feel like that's also lost is that we forget discipleship isn't just like transferring disinformation. It's like let's talk about this. What's going on Like practical yeah, isn't just like transferring this information. 46:32 - Speaker 1 It's like like, let's talk about this. What's going on? Like like practical, yeah, yeah, I mean even like the story of the young man who was vexed with a demonic spirit and jesus comes from them, comes down from the mountain of transfiguration, and you know they can't cast out the spirit, the demon or the spirit, and jesus cast it out and they wait till they go to dinner later on and they're like, hey, like why weren't we able to cast the spirit out? You know he's able to say, hey, these things, I mean he embarrasses them a little bit. He says faithless generation, he embarrasses, he's like you guys are making me look bad in front of them. 47:01 But you know, but taking that time, that even with that moment of rebuke, there's a moment and an opportunity for discipleship and learning and growth at the dinner table, right, when he has time to pour into them and spend time and sit with them, and he has time to use this as a teaching moment. 47:19 And so, even whether it be, you know, jesus walking on water or him being on the boat in the other context, where the seas are raging, and they know him as teacher, but then they learn him as savior, protector, there's always opportunities for them to learn, and Jesus is always pushing the disciples into positions where they have to learn, and so he empowers them to go out two by two, but he also empowers them in lessons and time. And I think the other thing for the big church model where we miss this is that Jesus disciples 12. He doesn't disciple the crowd, he disciples 12, and the 12 go out and minister to others. And I think that we've kind of gotten that loss. We look at numbers, not look at the fact that, hey, jesus spent time, intimate time, with others because he knew that it would take that closeness and that time and that intimacy to really impact the life. 48:08 - Speaker 3 A couple of last questions. I'm super curious as to one, like how you made a wife, because I'm just always interested, and then two, her learning that you're third generation, like your mom's, like your parents are pastors. Like was there any? Like whoa? Like do I want to date this guy? 48:24 - Speaker 1 So the funniest thing I never, ever I literally swore off of it After I became a pastor. I I never, ever. I literally swore off of it. After I became a pastor I said there's no way I'm marrying another minister of the gospel. My wife is a pastor. She's a like a vice president of a company called Guideposts Magazine. I don't know if you've ever heard of it. Norman Vincent Peale has like this brand that he launched years ago. So she works in there. Her whole life is God. 48:50 And I was like, literally, I don't want to marry a minister of the gospel, let alone pastor a church. I resolved that I was a pastor, okay. But my wife and I met because we both had to minister at a conference and I had. They separated the men and women. It was a huge you know huge organization and I spoke to the men, she spoke to the women Same conference and then they did a panel at the end and brought us both sitting at the table to answer questions. So that's how we met and we just honestly hit it off. We hit it off as friends. At the time I was dating somebody. So, yeah, there was no nothing going on there. And then, you know, me and my girlfriend are on the rocks kind of rocking. And then one day I kind of look at her and it's like, hey, me and my girlfriend are on the rocks kind of rocking. And then one day I kind of look at her and it's like, hey, what about this person? But then the concert reminded that she's a preacher and yeah, this is not going to work. And so we fought on it for years, went back and forth for a little bit, went through some marital counseling finally and resolved that we belong together. 49:45 And the pressure coming into this context, because, even though my wife is a minister of the gospel, she comes from a very you know. She also, like, has this nickname called sneaker preacher. So she's like this girl, real petite girl that's like radical, but at the same time wear sneakers, not into the traditional kind of church model in that sense, right, in terms of how she views ministry. And she comes into mind and sees that, like, I come from this lineage of church, right, this church has all this profound history. She doesn't really know much about it. And so everybody says, wow, you're coming into this church, wow, you're going to be, and she's like she has no awareness of where I come from, really the weight of it. But what I love about it is that my wife didn't allow it to impress her and she didn't take on that weight to say, okay, I'm coming as the third generation or fourth. She didn't. None of that stuff really mattered to her. She loved me and we both just so happened to be ministers of the gospel and we now work together in ministry, which is great. But on top of that, she just didn't allow that pressure or she's not number one. My wife is not easily impressed by anything, which is great. She wasn't easily impressed by me, or even when I thought I was somebody, she was kind of like okay, so it was great. So I had to really work to get her affection. But what's really great is that we became friends and we became best friends and then started dating and then worked for years towards this process. We met in 2018, dated in 2019, married in 2023. 51:11 Shout out to Reverend AR Bernard and some of our other mentors who helped to counsel us and walk through this. It was an interesting process. And also these church influences and what a pastor should be and what a first lady should be quote unquote first lady what this process should be, I would get advice to say don't marry a preacher, you're going to be fighting over the mic, this type of advice here and there, so it was all over the place. But it was great that we had sound guidance and a lot of that religiosity was still pouring in. 51:43 And so her and I both fight, even in our day, in our ministry now and in our personal lives, distinguishing between legalism, dogmatic practices and really trying to find the fruitfulness of the gospel and what he's calling for his church. And so it's always a fight, especially when you've been indoctrinated. She grew up. The first church she grew up in was heavily. It was a denomination called apostolic right. She grew up apostolic, so heavy they didn't affirm women preachers, and so she went through all of that. So that tradition as well. So undoing has been a lot of both of our journeys together undoing and unlearning and finding a happy medium and a balance. 52:20 - Speaker 3 It's kind of crazy, Even from my home timeline, all the stuff that's been happening, post-pandemic, because the big thing on the liberal left is being woke. But I'm like we're not woke, we're like waking up, you know, yeah, yeah. 52:33 And I feel like God is really waking up people who grew up in an older like more like the tradition of the fathers. That's what Jesus says all the time. I'm like that's so legit and it's refreshing because like, yeah, there was a period where I thought I'm going to be a prophet and condemn both sides, because I understand the bad in both sides. But I'm like, no, Danny, just chill out, see what God's doing, just love people and have good vibes. I think one thing that social media and just media in general that pollutes my mind is that things are so bad. But that's in the world. Right In the church, we're being renewed day by day, like hearing your story and meeting guys like you. Yeah, it's just a refreshing reminder that, like, no matter how bad things get information-wise and news-wise, like God is doing something amazing with his people. There's always a remnant. You know, like even your church started with remnant and like a mustard seed and it grew. 53:34 - Speaker 1 So like, yeah, I a remnant. You know, like even your church started with remnant and like a mustard seed and it grew. So like, yeah, I have more. I think it's always important to remember that and then also understand, like you give yourself grace that we're still figuring it out. I'll say this in true transparency as a like african-american pastor I love the lord with all of my heart. There's certain values and principles that I will never deny and never get rid of. But also, i'm'm an African-American gentleman. 53:49 So election time was a time where we really had to, like, sit back. There were some agendas on both sides that I just didn't agree with Not to go politically, but there were just certain things on both sides that I didn't agree with. So where do I land? Where do I and it's important to really have to, you know, settle yourself, have a true conversation with yourself and then be responsible with what you say across that pulpit, because you're literally, you know, influencing the decisions of people who sit under your teaching and um, and giving yourself grace and time to say, I don't know until you're sure I think it's great. You know, realizing like you're, you are an authority figure, but you're not the authority and so giving yourself grace. I think it's really vital as well, as we're growing, waking up, right so to say, evolving, growing, but also still knowing where those anchors are, those boundaries are. But things move beyond principle value and those things that will sustain you, what are you hoping for? 54:47 I faithfully yeah, I'm looking forward to connecting with people who are, with people who are similar to me and within the same context and different In terms of just like LinkedIn. Right, you want to find people in your field who you can relate with, you can share stories, you can share information, but also people outside of your context that can stretch you and expand you right For Faithly, just looking for some leaders who are maybe in the New York area that I don't know. You know some of the things that you're doing, some of the things that are working and just how you're balancing life. I know that I'm bivocational I still work in corporate America plus pastor, plus husband and father. So how do you balance this? Right, how do you live? So, finding some other people share those stories and share those experiences with, and then also some people outside of my, my context that I can kind of just connect with and also learn about. And you know, connect I think I'm a person that just lives off. Connection, so, faithfully, is the perfect platform for me. 55:39 - Speaker 3 And how can we be praying for you and your family? 55:41 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I think that 2025 is going to be a very interesting year. My wife and I are working on another child, so, yeah, you can pray there, pray for my strength, but just also pray for our community. We're in the Fort Greene, our church is in the Fort Greene, clinton Hill community, just praying that there's a bit more unity there, with a lot of different elements, whether it be the concept of gentrification, the migrant population in our community. There's a lot of dynamics within that Fort Greene, clinton Hill, brooklyn community, a lot of different socioeconomic representations within the same community. Like it's beyond crazy. 56:14 Like down the street you have NYCHA and then right up the street in our block we don't have a house worth less than $2.2 million. So like the nuances are there which causes a bit of friction and tension, and so we're trying to find the best way of meeting the needs of growth. You know of all communities in that area and our goal is to really foster a great sense of unity there. So prayers for that how we can expand and further unify our community and then for my family, just, you know, prayers for the health of our family and for balance. I think for us we kind of feel a little stretched, definitely prayers for more balance. 56:48 - Speaker 3 Okay, thanks for coming on the podcast. This was great. 56:57 - Speaker 2 Thank you, danny, appreciate it. Bye guys. Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. The Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. The Faithly digital platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection, foster collaboration and promote growth within the church and ministry space. Remember to subscribe, rate and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you. Stay tuned for more uplifting tales from the front lines of ministry on the Faithly podcast. Stay bold, stay faithful and never underestimate the power of your own story.