Wild Fig: An Emerging Network - Eugene Kim | Faithly Stories

00:01 - Speaker 1 I think there is a reality that there's a lot of people who are passionate about following Jesus in the world, want to give their time and energy and focus to that work in the world, but find themselves not really fitting anywhere in a traditional denominational structure Independent ministers, virtual directors, coaches. We need belonging and accountability too. We're trying to open the door, actually make belonging and accountability and practical support as accessible as possible. 00:30 - Speaker 2 Welcome to Faithly Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys, through their ministry work and everyday life Brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders. Learn more at faithly.co. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired on the Faithly Stories podcast. 00:57 - Speaker 3 Eugene Kim, welcome to the Faithly Stories podcast. It's such a pleasure to have you on. 01:02 - Speaker 1 Hi Alicia, how are you? 01:04 - Speaker 3 I'm good, thank you, so it's really good to reconnect with you. We's such a pleasure to have you on. Hi, Alicia, how are you? I'm good, thank you, so it's really good to reconnect with you. We've had a bunch of conversations over the last couple of years, so of course you're a former pastor. 01:14 You pastored for 17 years at High Rock Covenant Church in the Boston area, where I think you're still based, right, Eugene, yeah, in the Boston area where I think you're still based, right, Eugene, yeah, in the area, perfect, and these days you're reimagining the church and we're going to dig into what exactly that means. You are the executive director of Wild Fig, which is a beautiful name, by the way. I love that Wild Fig, so let's start there. What is? 01:43 - Speaker 1 Wild Fig. Yeah, thanks so much for having me on, Alicia. I really appreciate it and I've enjoyed our conversations too. So it's, you know, it's a pleasure. So Wild Fig Network is this kind of emerging new network for ministers and ministries that are interested in looking for kind of a different way forward as far as organizational structures go. So let me break that down a little bit. So it really came out of this collaborative conversation. 02:16 A few colleagues and I, we were all part of an existing denomination. You know pastors, ministers of an existing denomination. You know pastors, ministers and we started to feel like we were no longer feeling at home in our own denomination. And you know, I want to be respectful of a diverse audience here, but for a few reasons, some of the churches, some of the ministers found themselves on the outside of the denomination and I felt myself sort of like less and less aligned with some of the directions that it was moving, and so we were all kind of having this conversation, you know, really just asking each other what are you going to do, where are you going to go? Conversation, you know, really just asking each other what are you going to do, where are you going to go? What other denominations have you looked for? 03:09 And then, as we're talking, we realized that this was actually kind of an interesting opportunity to perhaps wipe the slate clean and reimagine the form and function of what is a denomination, what is it for? And so one conversation led to another and it just sort of evolved into this dream of a different way of organizing for ministry. So we just started wondering what it would look like to design something not based on sort of top-down hierarchical models, but base this thing on mutuality and interdependence, to create something more decentralized and bottom-up, less top-down bureaucracy, you know, and more bottom-up collaboration. And so we've been doing this design work over the past year, basically what I affectionately call a post-denominational denomination for ministers and ministries looking for just a different way of relating to one another. So yeah, I'd be curious to know like what are you? What do you want to know about it? Because there's so much to it. 04:21 - Speaker 3 Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's a great starting point and I think that I appreciate your heart for not wanting to be critical of your denomination, and I've heard a lot of leaders share a similar sentiment, like leaders of denominations say themselves publicly on podcasts and other forums that new wineskins for cooperation are needed in Christendom. So there's this acknowledged need that I think you're tapping into and talking about. So let's start a little bit with sort of the landscape. As you've been designing and building the Wild Fig Network, have you come across others who are doing the same thing, Like is this? Have you seen like a movement to build this kind of post-denomination denomination? 05:13 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean I just look outside of institutional structures a lot and there's no denying that there's just a ton of life happening out in the so-called wilderness. 05:29 It you know there's good stuff happening inside of institutional church, but it's pretty well documented by now. 05:36 Things are in decline, and you know my experience inside of institutional church, not just as part of a church and you know doing church planting and multi-site and but also within denomination, just seeing that like, okay, this is good, it works for some people, but it's working for fewer and fewer people, especially for younger and rising generations. 06:06 And so the response I feel like the spirit is never not at work. And so the response is there are all these new experiments and organic grassroots movements and gatherings out in the wilderness. There's a surge in alternative models of gathering, different ways of gathering for missional, you know purposes, and so what I observe most is this increasing interest in spirituality and yet and desire for belonging and community and purpose and connection, and then our traditional, linear, one size fits all models working for fewer and fewer people. And so there's got to be some kind of response to that need that I feel is organically happening. And so I see Wild Fig and my work with other kind of innovative projects. It's all just part of that broader movement, of what I think is this, you know, move of God in the world. 07:16 - Speaker 3 Okay, so tell me a little bit more about what makes the Wild Fig Network the Wild Fig Network. You've talked a little bit about the structure of it not being top-down hierarchical, of it being more sort of decentralized. What are the other characteristics? Is there a particular region? Is there a particular doctrine? 07:35 - Speaker 1 Great questions. So when I say that we're moving toward an increasingly post-denominational world moving toward an increasingly post-denominational world, a bit of what I mean by that is the whole notion of a denomination was created. You know, it emerged out of a completely different time place, culture where, you know, post-reformation, we all sort of like siloed into these, like I'm Presbyterian, I'm Methodist, I'm Pentecostal, whatever you know, and so now there's I believe the number is over 45,000 denominations in the world, and so you know we're not doing such a great job at this whole. 08:19 Like being one. As you know, the son and the father are one. Today we find ourselves in this new reality where we're aware that our tradition isn't the only one. We're aware that there are other denominations, there are other belief systems, there are other traditions, and now people are discovering that spirituality is a journey, you know, not so much a destination right, it's a river, not a well, and no one, very few people are one thing anymore. The days of like being born and dying in your same tradition, your same you know denomination, are sort of like waning. And now people are like experimenting and discovering spirituality. 09:09 Like you know, I'm going to participate in this high church liturgy and go to this contemporary more you know, pentecostal service, and you know, and that's just the new reality. And so I would say the first distinctive of Wild Fig is attempting to bring together diverse Christian traditions, not being locked into one particular doctrinal tradition, but giving people, ministers themselves, the ability to keep learning and explore and shift even in their theological convictions. When I was early on in my ministry career, it's like you choose a denomination. It's like, okay, I'm going to decide my theology while I'm still taking these classes. Like it made no sense. And so I think we want to include diverse Christian traditions and also, last thing I'll say, is make room for diverse expressions of ministry so that, like I said, that one size fits all. 10:20 You know, attractional church model is in decline. You know, attractional church model is in decline, but people are still very interested in ministry, and so they're expressing it in a variety of ways. They are starting organic spiritual community and dinner churches and house churches. They're doing justice work in their communities. It just looks like a mosaic, right? I like to say the future model of the church is that there's no one model, and so traditional denominations tend not to be very good at being able to adapt and include these sort of new forms of ministry. So my nonprofit New Wine Collective literally has nowhere to belong, no way of interfacing with this institutional model, and so we're trying to create a network that is flexible and adaptive enough to include a lot of diversity and weave us together through trust-based relationships so that we can be a more full body of Christ together and learn from each other. 11:30 - Speaker 3 Well, that is a really beautiful and nuanced way to answer my question. Like even my question itself was a very sort of denominational era type of question, but I can well. Your answer has given me a deeper understanding of what this post-denomination world looks like and what it needs. So thank you. What were some of the big decisions you've had to make as you've designed over the last? 11:59 - Speaker 1 year, couple of years, yeah, yeah, it's been a little over a year long conversation, and that's the first difference. This is not my brainchild, this was a collaborative conversation and so we really were very intentional about making this a collaborative process so that the product is more and greater than any one person can create alone. So it's been co-creative and so we've really been intentional about trying to do things differently from, you know, from ground zero, from the very first step, in the way that we gather, the way that we show up for one another and build trust so that we can truly hear from every voice in the room fully, so that collectively we are able to learn from each other and kind of harness that collective wisdom. And so the whole process has been very open-handed and iterative. We have an idea and we propose that idea and we, you know, keep it very open-handed and we all sort of like dive in and refine it and make it better. And then we're like, yeah, that sounds pretty good. You know, do we? Do? We want to move forward with this? Is it good enough for now? And we do that, and then the very next day we'll be like hey, actually I'm not sure about this one thing. 13:29 It's like okay, let's put it back on the drawing board, um, and so the whole process has been very adaptive, iterative and all based on building trust as a team. So it's the first like, my role as the executive director is primarily a facilitator of the conversation. Um. So there's no, like you know, person in the back room like just designing everything and then coming down the mountain and saying here's the plan, um. So that's the part that's really exciting to me. This is the most collaborative work that I've ever actively been a part of. And then we're starting to invite more people into that conversation so that you know the design of it is going to be informed by even more voices. So that's what's exciting. 14:24 - Speaker 3 That's really beautiful is going to be informed by even more voices. So that's what's exciting. That's really beautiful. Now, the last time you and I talked, Eugene, you were heading towards a launch. 14:35 - Speaker 1 Where are you in that sort of timeline? 14:40 So we've put a lot of work into our sort of 1.0 iteration of what we think the network is going to be about how it's going to function, our governance, our organizational structure, and so our plan is actually to soft launch and emphasis on the word soft next month, which is August 2025. 14:59 And what that means is that we'll have intake forms ready for people who are interested in being a part of the network and then there will probably be a series of follow ups and introductory meetings and things like that, and so we'll be sort of opening the door for people to start learning more about the network and express interest in joining cohorts, which are kind of these relational containers. It's the whole basis of the network. And then we're going to run that experiment for the first year and probably figure out what's working and what's not and then keep learning and adapting from there. So I hate to call it a launch because it's really just like, okay, we're kind of scared but we're going to like open for business, so to speak, and we're really excited but also it's really daunting. So you know, pray for us. 16:02 - Speaker 3 Wow, that's amazing. So, Eugene, I asked about your launch, knowing that, like six or seven months ago, you told me you were planning to soft launch in August and you're on track, like this is what you were planning to do, you're doing it. So it's been all smooth sailing right, like really easy, no bumps in the road. 16:20 - Speaker 1 Absolutely yes, no, absolutely yes, no. Things always take longer than you think when you're building anything new, and so I say you know we will. We're on track, I think, to at least have those intake forms up. But what we're really looking for are early adopters, people who are willing to come on board knowing that we're building this plane while flying, not everything is going to be lined up and available. We're looking for people to join and actually be a part of building this thing with us from the ground floor. And so it's funny, like in our planning it's like, oh, we forgot to factor for like summer and like people going away on vacation and things like that. And so I think we're on track, but it's still. There's still a lot of work to do, yeah, but we're going to try to do the work as we're going, which, you know, has its pros and cons. We'll learn in real time. We're going to do the best we can, but we expect things to be a little bit bumpy in the beginning. 17:38 So if anyone out there is expecting like oh you know, they have this whole thing figured out and, like you know, I'm just going to like, come into this thing and everything's going to be smooth sailing, Like you should wait for. Like 2.0. I love that. 17:54 - Speaker 3 I love that general, the good health warning. Now let me ask you, Eugene, to talk a little bit about the kind of pastor or ministry leader that you expect to fill out the intake form. Is it someone who just never joined a denomination? Is it someone who is currently part of a denomination, who may be unsatisfied with the relationships and with the resources and their cooperation? Tell me about this person you have in mind. 18:23 - Speaker 1 Yeah. So a lot of the model I I draw from what many are calling like network systems, impact networks, and one of the fundamental features of of an effective network is that they're not aligned around a personality or, you know, like rules there's actually it's it's decentralized. So there are a lot of things in Christian world that are called networks, but they're not really networky. It's really an organization, you know, with a, with a leader and with a hierarchical structure, but networks are bound by comp, bound by shared purpose and principles. So you're aligned around a purpose and then you're aligned around a set of shared principles, which are kind of like you're guiding. You know your guardrails, so to speak. And so I think that's the fundamental thing looking for people who are aligned with what we're trying to accomplish in the world, which is to weave together people in relationships. There's a lot of why that is the case. And then people who are going to value mutuality and humility and you know you can find our values online, humility and you know you can find our values online. And so we're looking for people who want this expression of Christianity in the world that is more loving and more justice-oriented and more inclusive. We want to give everyone a place to belong fully. 20:00 And so there's that, and I think there is a reality that there's a lot of people who are passionate about following Jesus in the world, want to give their time and energy and focus to that work in the world, but find themselves not really fitting anywhere in a traditional denominational structure in a traditional denominational structure. But these independent ministers, spiritual directors, coaches you know teachers, you know innovators we need belonging and accountability too. We need benefits, we need practical support. You know what you're doing is ministry, but not many traditional denominations would call it that. They sort of like gatekept the word ministry and defined it in a very narrow, narrow way that requires a three-year theological degree or something like that, which, of course, is not accessible to everyone year theological degree or something like that which, of course, is not accessible to everyone. So we're trying to, you know, open the door, actually make belonging and accountability and practical support as accessible as possible for people out there in the world and then like connect with one another. 21:22 So that's really the key. 21:24 - Speaker 3 Thank you for sharing that. It's very compelling and I can't wait to watch it continue to take shape. I love what you said about building the plane while you're flying it, so I think this is going to be a really exciting journey to watch Now shifting gears for a second. This is not your first spark of sort of creativity and innovation. When you left the church in Boston, you actually created a different organization called the New Wine Collective. Can you tell me a little bit about that? Is this an outgrowth of that first organization you started? 22:04 - Speaker 1 It isn't but kind of, I'll explain. 22:10 - Speaker 3 Yes and no is the best answer. Yes and no. 22:13 - Speaker 1 New Line Collective was the nonprofit that I founded right when I left my role as a pastor in my church, and that was basically a container for the work of church innovation. So I think of it as an R&D lab or a think tank for church innovation. And so New Wine Collective you know gatekept and you know you don't need somebody's permission to gather and to have deep spiritual fellowship right where two or more are gathered, et cetera, et cetera. And so New Wine is really focused on developing tools to give regular anyone the ability to gather with people and have intentional spiritual conversations and community, and so we're developing some digital tools to help support that. 23:12 So people out in the middle of you know who knows where, that you just cannot find a church. You know Nowadays it's just so hard to find a church that is the right fit culturally or theologically or any number of reasons. It's just really hard to find that right fit. And so, rather than trying to address this vast spiritual and social need out there with this one model, how do we empower people to start creating the thing that they need? So that is what New Wine Collective is about, but a lot of the same values, frameworks and mental models that inform New Wine are informing Wild Fig Network as well. 24:00 Like I said, Wild Fig was this collaborative conversation, but it naturally shares a lot of the to figure out what they need in order to thrive and flourish spiritually. So those are some of the shared characteristics. So in my own journey, I feel like I'm figuring out that my what's mine to do in the world is to is to imagine and to design new and better systems, and so they don't feel like two different works to me, they feel like very intertwined. It's the same thing happening at on the ground with grassroots self-organized communities. It's the same thing with organized churches and ministries and with clergy and ministers. 25:16 - Speaker 3 There's a couple of phrases that you used in your answer that really struck a chord with me. The first is you called New Wine Collective an R&D lab. I love that. I love that you approached reimagining the church as an R&D lab where you can dream and create with God, and I also love the phrase you use when you said what's mine to do, because clearly you have a dream for the church on your heart, but there's a difference between like the dream and what's yours to do, and it just seems like you've been on this really, really interesting and really beautiful journey to sort of figure that out. 25:56 - Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, that's definitely true. 25:59 - Speaker 3 So there's a few words I've heard you use over and over again, as you've talked about Wild Fig Network, as you've talked about New Wine Collective and as you've just talked about your dream for the church. You've used the word trust over and over again, you've used the word gatherings, you've used the word relationship, and it's just that it's like sort of woven into everything you've done since you've left High Rock Covenant Church. One of the other things you've done that we haven't talked about yet is Soul Rise, right, and I believe it's an innovative gathering of church leaders. Can you tell me a little bit about your role and what it is? 26:37 - Speaker 1 Yeah, so I am the just event director for Soul Rise, which is actually this thing that's been around for a couple decades now. 26:47 - Speaker 3 Oh, wow. 26:48 - Speaker 1 But it's a pop-up event, so it happens every so often whenever there's sort of a need, and so Solarize is actually not really like a well, it can include church leaders, but it's it's. It's really focused on spiritual innovators and spiritual change makers. And so spiritual innovators are people like you and I, who are people who are creating. So my friends at Sacred Design Lab, you know, they they sort of did a whole study on spiritual innovation and I believe, like their definition of spiritual innovation, how do they put it? 27:32 Spiritual innovators, they are engaging or creating novel ways to address these kind of timeless, universal spiritual longings, so taking ancient wisdom and applying it to today. And so it's people who are doing garden gatherings and connecting with the earth and like doing that as a spiritual practice or, you know, activism even, you know, is a form of spiritual innovation. So you've got spiritual innovators over here and then you've got spiritual change makers, which are sort of the more social entrepreneurs and activists. And why I'm passionate about Solarize is I feel like we both need each other. Um, as spiritual innovators try to address these spiritual longings for uh connection and for um for uh, um for belonging and and connect and relationship. Um, spiritual change makers are in the world trying to solve real world problems, but from a faith-based kind of motivation or perspective. And so Solarize is this sort of, you know, desire to get people together in the same room so that we can nourish each other and then try to come up with collaborative solutions for some of the world's biggest problems. 29:08 It is a multi-faith gathering, and so it's more interfaith, interspiritual, which again, I think is more of what we need. We need more cooperation. We're not solving these impossibly hard, complex problems all by ourselves. We're going to need interdisciplinary learning, and even we're going to need to learn from other people, other belief systems as well. 29:36 - Speaker 3 That's so great. Thank you for explaining it. When I came across Solarize, I knew it sounded different and interesting, and I'm glad I got to ask you about it, so I want to change gears again. So, Eugene, you know that a lot of our listeners are pastors and ministry leaders, and we all know that ministry is a journey with different seasons, different chapters. How did you know that it was time to leave the pastorate? It was time to leave the pastorate. 30:04 - Speaker 1 It was time to leave your church? I think it was. 30:15 If I can think about how I want to answer just for a moment, yeah, of course Um so leaving my role at church was not easy, um, it was really difficult, uh, and painful, um, but I would say it began about five or six years before my decision to leave. Um, I was sort of, uh, in the midst. I've gone through multiple rounds of burnout and, you know, shifting in the way that I relate to God and in the way in my own spirituality, and as I'm sort of going through this sort of faith crisis, I'm also starting to reorient in terms of how I'm seeing this thing that we're doing. You know this model of church, and so I just start to value different things, because we were kind of a successful church, you know we were growing, we were multiplying, but I just started really wondering, like, is this working the way we think it is? And having some questions internally. So, and as I started doing that, I became more and more aware like, okay, there are some like actual, like downsides to this um, to this attractional, programmatic way that we're doing things and the way that you know we're building up and scaling and building a brand and all of that. 31:54 And so, inside the church, in my role, I started experimenting and creating these alternative communities where we sat in the round, and it was like a contemplative gathering and doing things like that and trying to think about how do how? How do I even lead differently, um, as a pastor, uh, with, with, with our staff and um, and I think things kind of came to a head. Um, it wasn't a great um, it wasn't a great experience for me, um, but I just think there was too much misalignment at the end of the day, um, and so I was kind of given not much of a choice, um, but to step, step away, uh, and so I really tried to commit to leaving, well, um, and you know, left that community that has been we built our lives around for 17 years, you know our whole family. And when it became clear it was time for me to go, like I said, very hard, very painful, but at the same time freeing, but freeing not in, like I'm running around the field, all happy and jumping, it's like free, like is scary, there are no handholds anymore. 33:23 Um, there's, there are no handholds anymore, um, and I felt almost like this free fall, but in that there was an opportunity, an invitation, um, very similar to the wild, fake journey, like, okay, I can, I can wipe the slate clean and actually like, really think about this, really imagine what this can be, what church is supposed to be from the ground up. Long, complicated, you know. Answer to kind of a simple question, but, um, it just became clear, like I didn't want to replicate the patterns and structures, that I just left, um and realized there needs to be, uh, some people you know no desire to tear anything down, but there needs to be something else, uh new seeds planted in the wilderness to see what emerges. I hope that answers the question. 34:34 - Speaker 3 It does. Thank you for sharing so honestly and so vulnerably about it. I know that this is resonating deeply with some of our listeners right now. I think that when you work for the church and in particular, when you pastor the church, there is this, I think, guilt and shame when things aren't in alignment, like you feel, like you have to embrace, like the church's programs and everything that they're doing. But misalignment, I think, is—and a certain amount of dissatisfaction is one of the ways that we can be catalyzed into new callings, into new innovation, into being creative, and it seems like that was how the Lord used that in your ministry and in your life. So thank you for sharing about that. I think these are really hard seasons for pastors and ministry leaders to walk through. 35:23 - Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, it really was. And I do talk to so many pastors who either their church closed or they got booted out or, you know, sidelined, or they just had to leave for any number of reasons. A lot of ministers out there trying to figure out what do I do, because I'm an expert at this thing that I'm either no longer in or don't no longer want to do, and so it's really tough out there. My heart goes out to them too. 36:00 - Speaker 3 Yeah, absolutely so. You said you and I are in ministry. Maybe you know denominations wouldn't identify it as such, but you know we're in ministry. You know we're serving and we're building the church in different ways. So between the 17 years that you were at your church in Boston and the five or so years you've been dreaming and building and experimenting like you've been serving for almost, you know, a quarter of a century, like what has fueled that? What has kept you going? 36:36 - Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, I think nowadays, first of all, I'm not good at fueling myself. I feel like I'm always running on like fumes. That's just personal confession, but I think the two sources of, I guess, drive one is a deep conviction that things aren't the way they're supposed to be, deep conviction that there's a disconnect between the way that we do church now and the way of Jesus and the way the church is supposed to be. And so this is deep conviction we need a systemic overhaul. It's not my job to do that systemic overhaul. I feel like we're already part of it. It's happening. It's kind of inevitable. The world is changing and so is the church, again, like it has happened many other times throughout history. So you can resist it, you can fight it, you can do all that, but it's going to happen, it's already happening, and so I just have this burning thing. It's just like man. The church is right now and I'm sorry, some may disagree and some might feel offended we're not doing our job. We're not doing such a good job making people more like Jesus, um, and so I think we're seeing a lot of the, the downstream effects, um system wide, um of people being um, of people being not formed to look like Jesus and to do the things that Jesus did, and a lot of that I think has to do with this model of church that we've inherited, and so I think we are in one of these massive historic shifts where we need to course 38:52 correct. And again, it's not my job to course correct, it's my job to just be a part of that stream of movement that is already happening. And so, and so, and the second thing is just like love, love for people, love for the world and love for my kids who concerned about the rise in violence and inequity and racism, and I can go on and on, and so, if the church is not going to be a part of being God's kingdom here on earth, you know, um, I, I don't know what, what's going to happen, and so I, I really am passionate about like, spending the rest of my life trying to um be a part of whatever movement in the world brings healing and justice to society and to the earth. 40:13 - Speaker 3 Thank you for sharing that. It's so beautiful and it's so hard to be a change maker. I think when you're someone who sees the change that is needed, it's easy to be seen as critical or to maybe fear that you sound critical, but what I hear, the heart of everything that you're saying, is this love of people, love of the church and the potential for the church, and this unwavering and undying desire to see the bride of Christ fulfill its potential here in the kingdom of God. So beautiful, yeah Well, thank you, Eugene, for sharing with us what you've been up to and your journey up until now. I have a feeling this is not going to be our last conversation, that there's going to be a lot to talk about over time. Last thing I want to ask you is where can people find out more about Wild Fig? We're, of course, going to include your website address in our show notes, but maybe you can shout it out in any other sort of social media accounts where people can tap into what you're doing. 41:22 - Speaker 1 Yeah, you can find Wild fig uh on instagram uh and facebook, and we're not that great at doing the whole social media thing yet, um but that's there, and our website does have more yeah, our website has a lot more information, including sort of our 1.0 guiding document, and so if people want to do a deep dive, that's where they can look, and I'm pretty easy to find on social media platforms. Same with New Wine Collective website and social media accounts. 41:58 - Speaker 3 Perfect. Thank you, Eugene, really appreciate your time today. 42:03 - Speaker 1 It's my pleasure and thank you so much for having me. 42:08 - Speaker 2 Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey. 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