You Love First - Jason Min

00:01 - Speaker 1 But he says, oh, this is the easiest decision you're ever going to have to make. And he was like, he's like Jason, you should go. And he said you know part of what leadership actually looks like is you go first. You know you love first. Hi, my name is Jason, I'm the lead pastor of Citizens LA and this is my Faithfully story. 00:21 - Speaker 2 Welcome to Faithfully Stories, the podcast that brings you inspiring tales from conversations with church leaders as they navigate the peaks and valleys of their faith journeys through their ministry work and everyday life. Join us as we delve into their challenges, moments of encouragement and answered prayers. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, staff and volunteers. Learn more at faithlyco. Get ready to be uplifted and inspired as we unveil the heart of faith through stories from the front lines of ministry. On the Faithly Stories podcast. 01:02 - Speaker 3 Could you tell me how your faith journey started? 01:04 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I grew up in the church. My parents, for as long as I can remember, have been believers. They immigrated here in 1984, and I was baptized as an infant and so, you know, church was just a regular part of my life. I would say if there was a moment when I felt like my faith became real, it would be. It was my first youth retreat and it's your classic story. You know I was. Yeah, I was in sixth grade, my first youth retreat. I still remember the song. It was this the song was White as Snow. It's an oldie and I don't know why, like even at that young age, I just felt so aware of my brokenness and you know, I didn't have like theological concepts or categories, but I just felt like this overwhelming sense of the love of God, of the love of God. And but you know, since then I think the journey has taken me to different places, but I think faith has just been a part of my upbringing, part of my story, since childhood. 02:13 - Speaker 3 So I've been talking to a lot of people through this podcast and I realized, like that experience because I also had the same experience of just being in the church all my life and I thought it was normal. But it's actually quite not normal unless you're Korean. 02:27 - Speaker 1 American. 02:29 - Speaker 3 So I'm curious as to like what do you remember about church before that retreat of like, like, like your childhood memories? 02:40 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, for me, church was life. You know, like now I think, in hindsight, I understand what the church meant to my parents. It wasn't just a place to go for an hour and a half a week. For my parents, who were immigrants, they literally saw it as their lifeline. You know the community was, it was friendship, it was resources. Yeah, I mean it was like a church was like a community center for them, and so I was at church minimum three to four nights a week. 03:14 You know, on Sunday it was an all day ordeal. All my. You know like friends from church were my closest friends and yeah, I mean I have a lot of sweet memories from that time. I mean, looking back, I'm like shocked that our parents would just, they would just leave us in the children's ministry room, sometimes for eight hours at a time, you know, and we would just figure it out. But yeah, I mean like so for me, like having that rhythm, though, was really had a profound impact, I think, on me from a young age and had a, and actually I know for a lot of people that was traumatizing for them and maybe they needed to kind of unlearn. 03:55 That I would say for me maybe, by God's grace, like I have only fond memories of that and I actually I would say that developed a very positive association with church. 04:08 - Speaker 3 Yeah, I feel the same way Because, like, my family life at home was chaotic, so, like church felt like a second home, but it really felt like a first home Because all my friends were there and we spent so much time there. And I feel like, even as an adult, internally, emotionally, I'm always trying to go back to those golden years but, like you said, like for me the struggle was always okay, but it feels like a community center and being churches, this thing. So for you, like, how do you deal with the tension of what you feel like churches theologically and like what the Bible says, but also like understanding? But wait, the way I grew up was so fruitful, you know. Like how do you meld those things together? 04:48 - Speaker 1 Yeah, like I guess for me I don't even really sense too much of a tension and in some ways there are aspects of that kind of iteration of my church experience that feels in fact more. It feels closer to, I think, how the Bible talks about church. You know, when I think about the Acts 2 church, like you know people breaking bread, sharing possessions, like that was my life, my parents, they knew very little about American culture, even like paperwork. You know church was a time when they actually learned how to raise us. You know where to live, what schools to send us to, where to buy a home, you know getting help to buy a home, you know. And then like I just the fondest memories for me are watching. 05:43 You know my parents like eat with you know, us eating with them, whether it was at like Wednesday night service, friday night service, sunday, there was always food and that's something that I feel like is very lacking in maybe the second generation church or the churches that I've been a part of. It's like service ends and everyone just kind of goes their separate ways, but that really felt like people were doing life together. For me, obviously, there are a lot of things that were very cultural and huge departures from maybe how the Bible defines church, but I guess there are a lot of things, I think, that we've lost that actually really showcase the beauty of what the church could be, finds church? But I guess there are a lot of things, I think that we've lost that actually really showcase the beauty of what the church could be. 06:28 - Speaker 3 Yeah, I totally agree. I think now at my age, at 40, I'm like appreciating all the things that has happened and I think that comes with, like when you miss it you're like oh wait, actually those things were good things. So you had this youth retreat. How did your faith progress? 06:44 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I guess, for me, like that just really thrust me deeper into the life of the church. You know, that's when I started serving, you know, as I started leading worship. You know, and this is why, like for me, when people say you know they love, they love Jesus, but they can't do the church, like it's sad for me to hear that and I understand that sometimes there are reasons for why they feel that way. For me, like I could not have progressed in my faith without the church. The two were, like absolutely intertwined and so it was just a deeper engagement, you know, with the body. 07:27 You know I got really close to my youth pastor who taught me everything I know about guitar and, as you know, like how much that had an impact on my life, that's where I learned how to be a worship leader. And then, like you know, in Korean American youth groups you start in sixth grade you're at the bottom, but as you progress up into high school, then you start leading different things. You know, you start leading small groups and then you, you know, like the crown jewel is, you get to be a part of the retreat planning committee. By the time you're a senior in high school and so, like for me, like I think, yeah, like after that moment it just I think my whole life already pretty much revolved around church, but I think there was just a deeper joy, deeper engagement with the community of God and so, yeah, I would say, yeah, just more involvement with the church. 08:21 - Speaker 3 So for me, every time I had those experiences they were great and it did like add something to me. But you know like you come back home and you're nice for two weeks and then you kind of revert so for you that was for me. How did your relationship to like your family change, or did it? 08:38 - Speaker 1 yeah, um, you know, to be honest, like for for me, like I mean same way in the sense of you know, retreat every year, that retreat was like a adrenaline shot to the system, you know huge highs. I would say my family life at home was pretty stable in the sense that, like I wasn't really coming back to a chaotic home. You know, and you know, thankfully, like both my parents were pretty consistent devout believers and so, yeah, if anything, like maybe I missed the emotional high, but it wasn't like a complete reverting you know of, like you know, or kind of like entering back into the chaos. So, thankfully, there were systems and structures in place that allowed me to continue to cultivate my faith, even at home. 09:35 - Speaker 3 So after your youth years, where'd you go to college? 09:38 - Speaker 1 The University of Pennsylvania, go Quakers. 09:42 - Speaker 3 What was your major. 09:44 - Speaker 1 I went as a communications major. I ended up double majoring in communications and history. But yeah, I started as a communication major. 09:52 - Speaker 3 So how did like your faith look in college? 09:54 - Speaker 1 Yeah, college was interesting because now is the first time I think I took full ownership of my faith, you know, got involved with a campus ministry, you know that was connected to a church out in Philadelphia and, again, thankfully, like all throughout my life, like I can point to very specific people who've had a huge impact on my like understanding of Jesus and who modeled like Jesus for me so well. And so, you know, thankfully, like I had so many older brothers and sisters who mentored me in college, nurtured me into a deeper understanding of the faith, and so, yeah, like so much of my college career, again, I think it was in many ways like a continuation of my childhood, but now, like I was doing it fully out of my own volition, you know. And so, yeah, started serving pretty quickly in college. You know, I think, music and worship it was very clear from early on that that was going to be like a thread that was going to move through my life and so, yeah, I started serving in that capacity, met a lot of amazing people. 11:12 I would say college was when, like I, got grounded in a very specific theology, like reformed theology. Before that, you know, I had the, you know, korean churches, it doesn't matter if you're Presbyterian charismatic, they all look very similar. But I think in college was when I really was turned on to like Reformed theology, when I like really got connected to the grace of God, preaching Christ and the gospel like in its most, like undiluted form. So that's when I got really into Tim Keller, john Piper those guys really, I think, started to shape my faith. This was renewal. 11:53 - Speaker 3 Yeah, Pastor Dwight, you know he's one of the big reasons why I went to Westman. He visited Binghamton and I had to talk with him and he's like where would you, why would you go anywhere else? Is that right? 12:04 - Speaker 1 Yeah, talk with him and he's like where would you why? 12:05 - Speaker 3 would you go anywhere else? Is that right? Yeah, yeah, or to something to that effect. I don't want to put words in his mouth. Um, wait. So like you're, I feel like you're like super blessed because you have so many people like pouring into you. Were you looking for these relationships or they kind of like was there and you just kind of immersed in it yeah, I mean this is gonna sound like so. 12:24 - Speaker 1 I don't think I was necessarily looking for them and this is why my whole life, you know, is I just, especially now as I'm, you know, in my 40s too. So I look back and see the hand of God, Like I just feel so blessed and I just have so much gratitude because, yeah, a lot of the I know that a lot of the relationships that I have that I had not all my friends had relationships like that, you know, the kinds of people who poured into my life, who invested in me. I just see that as purely the grace of God and so, yeah, I was really fortunate in that sense. 13:07 - Speaker 3 So what advice would you give to young people who are looking for mentorship? Like, if someone feels like really alone, like what would you tell them? 13:16 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean one thing I will say, and this is where, like, I do see the beauty of the church. You know, for example, the church that I'm pastoring right now I started in a community group. Carol and I started in a community group. We were newly married and in that group there were singles, there were newly dating couples, and it was amazing for us to journey with them and we became parents. The dating couple got married. Some of the singles started dating and because we had those relationships across life stages, we benefited great, like all parties benefited so greatly from it. Like you know, the singles learned from us. You know what married life was going to look like, what parenthood was going to look like, but then, once we became parents, a lot of these brothers and sisters, they became our kids babysitters, you know. They kept us youthful, they became a part of our village and I would say a lot of times. 14:20 I think we're constantly looking for people who are exactly like us in the same life stage, same interests, kind of to be our community. 14:31 But I think if you are intentional about looking for people in other life stages to connect with, it's pretty amazing the kinds of community you can forge through those relationships, the kinds of community you can forge through those relationships. 14:49 So I like for me, I think even at a young age maybe, because, like there were certain things that I was trying to develop in, let's say, as a worship leader or as a small group leader, where I was really I wanted to learn and I was hungry to learn from older people and people who have been doing it for a while I think I took intentional steps to connect to those people, pick their brain. 15:11 I mean, it takes a little bit of courage to ask someone older than you or someone in a different life stage for coffee or things like that. But it's also pretty, I think now, being on the other side, being the older person that maybe younger people come to, it's actually there's nothing more life-giving than the opportunity to pour into someone younger, and I think people a lot of times underestimate how impactful it is for the person that you're asking as well, and so I would encourage you know people to just go out and seek them. Not all relationships are gonna turn into mentorship relationships, but I think being intentional about the types of people where you say like I would love to just learn from you or I would love to hear your story. It just like one thing leads to another and it just opens more doors, you know you know when you're talking about the community group. 16:10 - Speaker 3 I never realized until you started talking about it that a community group is really just an incubator, because like I'm constantly thinking about the startup world. I'm like oh, that's why, like, it works and you're sharing experiences. So I'm very curious as to like, okay, you, you're in college, you're doing this thing, you graduate. When did Miss Vintage happen? 16:31 - Speaker 1 Yeah, so I graduated. So, essentially to back up a little bit, when I went into college and declared as a communications major, it was because I wanted to be an anchorman. Yeah, I know. 16:44 - Speaker 3 Wait, wait, expand on that. 16:45 - Speaker 1 Yeah, you know, like public speaking was always a big part of my life, did a whole bunch of speech, competitions, model UN, and so when I went to college, that was the. You know, one of the reasons I chose Penn was because of their renowned communications program and, interestingly enough, the summer after my junior year I landed my dream internship at ABC7 News. It was like the road was starting. I could see this is the first kind of stepping stone to this career and it was a great internship. I learned so much. But that exact summer, so half the summer I interned at ABC7. And the other half of the summer I went on a mission trip to Russia where we were there teaching youth and serving that like an underserved community on the border of Russia and North Korea. And I got back and I had an existential crisis because you had like, in that summer it was basically my dream job. Juxtaposed with this experience, that was a thousand times more fulfilling than my dream job and I was like, oh my goodness, do I really wanna do this for the rest of my life? Because I've never felt more alive than I did when I was like, oh my goodness, do I really want to do this for the rest of my life, because I've never felt more alive than I did when I was in Russia. And so I panicked. 18:14 My senior year I come back and I'm like, oh my goodness, I need to figure something different out. So that's when I started applying to master's programs in education, and it wasn't necessarily because I knew I wanted to be a teacher, but they knew that whatever I did next, I wanted it to involve young people, investing, pouring into the next generation. So I was like, okay, I need to apply to ed schools. And so I started taking a few education classes, just so that I would have the prereqs. And then I applied to grad programs and then, literally the next year, I did a one-year master's in education program at Harvard. So I went to Boston and lived there for a year, loved my time there. 19:00 But then the thing is is, when I went there because I didn't really have, I didn't know what the end goal was after that master's, you know, was I going to go into teaching? Was I going to higher ed? Did I want to pursue a doctorate? I'm not sure. And so I was, you know, I mean this is classic, if anyone who knows me knows. So this is just classic Jason never can figure out what he wants to do, always asking for clarity and wisdom. 19:28 So, you know, I, at near the end of my, as I got closer to graduation, I was like what am I going to do? You know, the only things I knew at the time that I loved were probably music, people and God, you know. And. And so I said I'm going to do, I'm going to do me, do music, you know, and to the horror of my parents who were like we sent you to two ivy leagues and you're gonna tell us you want to be a full-time musician. You know, it was like an asian parent's worst nightmare. So there were a few guys that I had played music with back in philly. So I moved, moved back down to Philadelphia to start this band, miss Vintage. 20:12 - Speaker 2 And. 20:12 - Speaker 1 I was working full time at Penn, like in their urban education program. So I was still kind of scratching that itch, but ultimately the plunge and go all in with music. And so we went full time with music for a couple of years, you know, and we did kind of like the way that that season started was we did this tour with Liberty in North Korea, where we did we played maybe like I think it was like 30 shows in 34 days across the country. So you know, that kind of launched us into full-time music. And then after a couple years, you know, a man's got to eat. 20:59 So you know, I think I started tutoring people to get by. I had amassed so many students in the greater Philadelphia area. A lot of these parents started saying, hey, if you ever started an education center, we would just send our kids there rather than having you drive to all these different places. And so that was kind of like right around 25. So I always joke with people that every five years I have a massive existential crisis 25, I was like you know what? Yeah, like I don't think music is paying the bills. It's always going to be a part of my life. And so I started this learning center. 21:42 - Speaker 3 You know college consulting business in Philly at 25 and so that's kind of like how my life went from music back into the kind of educational space I'm gonna stick with the music thing a little more because like you're one of the rare quote-unquote pastors that I know like had this like church experience and that was like your life, and then in the middle you did this non kind of christian thing but then you went back to the church. So like I want to know what your perspective on, like the whole music touring thing, because what it wasn't a christian band right, it was just a band no yeah, just like yeah, looking back on those experiences, what was it like touring with a band and being a christian? 22:26 - Speaker 1 at that time a lot of people were actually starting to talk about this. You had bands like Switchfoot, where people they were kind of getting some mainstream attention that they started out as a Christian band and you weren't sure, are they still Christian, are they writing Christian music or are they writing for the mainstream? And so there was a lot of talk and blog posts being written about like what does it really mean to be a Christian and to be a musician not making explicitly Christian music? You know, and like I think maybe we were, we were a little bit too early in the sense that, you know, I think now I would have, if I were to have become a, you know, pursued music. Now I think I would have a much better handle on, you know, the type of musician I would want to be. But we were at that time I was really trying to figure it out. You know, Anytime I wasn't doing something explicitly Christian, I felt like shame, even because I grew up in a church context where culture and the church were two separate things. 23:38 You know, I was at a youth retreat when they made us bring all of our secular CDs and we had to burn them in the fire. To this day. I really am upset about that because I lost some of my favorite CDs and I think, yeah, like I think, I had such a shallow theology around what it means to be a Christian in culture. At that time, you know, I thought that if the music, if you didn't explicitly present the gospel or if you didn't explicitly say Jesus' name in the songs, I thought I was diluting the gospel or I was selling out or I was being ashamed of my faith and that was like a lot of unlearning that I had to do over time, whereas I think now I feel, like, you know, one of our kind of values as a church actually is holistic faith. You know, and so you know, at our church we have ceramics workshops, you know, we have swing dancing workshops, we have happy hours and we're constantly actually seeing it's not Christ against culture, you know, it's Christ in culture. You know, and seeing Christ in everything you know and seeing. 24:55 You know I say often at our church that discipleship is not the process of becoming more Christian and the idea is that, yeah, like you know, jesus wasn't the most fully Christian person to ever walk the earth. You know, he was the most fully human person to ever walk the earth. And now, I love when musicians talk about the whole spectrum of life. You know, I think that all of that belongs to God, you know, and so I think I have a much more robust theology around that. But at that time in my early 20s I really struggled, and a lot of people asked that question to me Are you a Christian band? What does it mean to be a Christian in this secular space? And so I wrestled with that a lot during that season. 25:42 - Speaker 3 You're making me cry and now people know why I'm so obsessed with citizens. So, yeah, what would your advice be with people like, because you're in LA and like the Hollywood scenes, like everywhere, right? What would you tell people trying to pursue this career of fame, you know, not necessarily for themselves, but like, do you feel like it's like what they're called to? How to navigate that and not lose sight of you're, a human being spreading the goodness of God wherever you are? 26:08 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I think you know one thing I do because, yeah, we at our church we do have a lot of people who come to LA specifically to, you know, pursue acting or music or something in the creative space to make a name for themselves, and so much. It's interesting like maybe 20 years ago, jason might say, you know, fame is bad and don't have these worldly pursuits. Now I think when I see people like pursuing their dreams or wanting to, you know, be a musician or wanting to be an influencer, like I see a really good desire For me, it shows that everyone is searching for meaning, everyone is searching for fulfillment, everyone is trying to find out who they are. So, you know, one thing is like I always want to affirm the desire because I see that it's good and it's hardwired in us, you know, and I think the danger is when we try to fill that desire with things that weren't meant to fill that desire. And so what I try to do, at least when I preach to that specific congregation, is really trying to bring home, being rooted in your identity in Christ. Look like when you know getting the thing isn't going to be what defines you. But how do you ground your identity in such a way that everything else is just a way for you not to find an identity but a way for you to live out that identity. So I'll give you a really practical example of how that plays out and I'll use one of my friends as an example of this. 27:54 I think that when if you're an actor and you believe that making it in acting or becoming a famous actor is going to satisfy your deepest desires, then when you go for an audition, it basically turns everyone in the room into like either someone that's going to potentially stand in the way of you solidifying that identity, stand in the way of your worthiness or significance, or you'll see them as a tool that you can use to get ahead in the industry. 28:27 You know, but I think one way that actors can really live out their faith and live into their identity in Christ is if you truly believe and truly grasp that, hey, you have everything you could ever want in Christ, that you know your identity is rooted in Him, your significance and worth is found in Him. Then you can go into an audition room and really genuinely like root for the people other people in the audition room. You know you don't see them as competition and you can actually audition for like free from the belief that if you don't get this audition your life is over, and that's like a really free, liberating way to live, you know. So people ask me all the time like how do I, how am I? Do? I practice my faith in the secular space and it's not always evangelism you know, and sometimes it. 29:30 You know, I think there are times that call for that, but a lot of times it's living your life in such a way that you're free from the need to prove yourself, to protect your image, to validate yourself, and I think when people see that it's so countercultural, it's so obvious that something is going on. The hope is that you know that would lead then to a relationship in which you can share the gospel and say like, hey, this is why I live the way that I do. And so, yeah, I think in every space, but maybe in LA, specifically that creative space, I think you're constantly wrestling with questions of identity, and so I would say that's a big piece of how I at least preach to that particular crowd in our church. 30:19 - Speaker 3 Yeah, the words I'm getting is if you can't evangelize, at least be an example. 30:23 - Speaker 1 It's pretty good. 30:25 - Speaker 3 So how did you go from this hagwon or educational academy all the Koreans now to being a senior pastor. 30:32 - Speaker 1 Uh, you know, we started, we were kind of a pandemic baby, oh, you know, in that sense that was an interesting time to kind of launch a new church, but maybe the best possible time as well because I think so to give you a little bit more of the story from the educational center. I did that for about five years and then 30 is creeping up, and again another existential crisis. And at the time the academy was doing really well and we were starting to talk about potentially expanding it to multiple locations, and so that was a huge kind of hinge point, and it was. I had to really ask myself is this what you want to do for the rest of your life? Because the moment we expand, pretty much it was just going to be my life after that point. And the thing with if any, you know, for those with experience in this space, it's so cyclical spring, fall, spring, summer, fall everything just kind of repeats. You could literally close your eyes and wake up and it's 20 years later and you've been doing this work for 20 years, and and so I knew either I was going to go full steam ahead or I was going to have to really re-evaluate. What do I want to do for the rest of my life? 31:55 Right around that time, carol and I were visiting LA and basically visited a church and the pastor there what felt like on a whim. You know, I met him for the first time and he basically had heard about me from different people at the church and invited me to be the full-time worship director. And that was huge, because Carol and I had only been married for a year at that point less than a year and two. It would have forced us to move, uproot our lives in Philadelphia and move to the West Coast. There were so many different implications, like it was going to be a huge pay cut. You know it was going to be a huge move and you know I'm from Southern California but Carol knew nobody in SoCal and so it was an enormous transition for her. But you know, god works in mysterious ways and basically six months later I had gone through the process. Six months later we were packing our bags and we had sold the academy. Thankfully, the people who bought the academy, I think, ended up actually expanding it to multiple locations. 33:05 But yeah, we moved over and even then I don't think I was thinking that I was going to ever be a traditional teaching preaching pastor. The way the role was sold to me was almost perfect, because it was hey, jason, you can come back to SoCal, your home. Basically, you're going to be doing music, you're going to be taking care of the creatives in our church. We would love for you to do a little bit of teaching, and the church at the time was only five years old, so we would love for you to kind of put on an entrepreneur hat a little bit and try new things, and so in some ways, it was a convergence of everything I'd done in my 20s in one position, so it was almost like a perfect scenario. And so, you know, did that for five years. And you know what? Do you know? 33:57 Five years later had another existential crisis, you know, and that five years was such an important period of time for me, you know, and our family. During that time, both my kids were born, but during that time my mother-in-law passed from lung cancer, and so our family was navigating a lot of different shifts and life just punched us in the mouth. During that time. I would say the community that we were a part of was so important and sustained us really during that season of our lives. And so, yeah, 35 rolls around and, you know, carol asks me like, okay, what's the next thing? You know, do you want to really take this worship leading thing, you know, and go hard there? You know, do you want to pivot? And I felt like a pivot was necessary. And this is the part that was interesting, because I was doing a little bit of teaching at the church. I didn't. 34:58 The thing is is, even though I did music for a long time, I still had a lot of imposter syndrome and a lot of insecurities when it came to music and there was a part of me that felt like I didn't have what it took to really go full on with music. You know, I think maybe being on the East Coast, in Philly, you know you have these like big dreams. If you come to LA, you're all of a sudden a small fish in a big pond, everyone is pursuing music and if there's something really liberating about that, I remember I cried the first day I was back in LA because the first like 10 people I met were aspiring musicians. I was like this is my people, you know. 35:38 But at the same time, it did breed a lot of insecurity in me to think, like what do I, what do I think I have that you know I'm going to be able to do what all these people have been trying to do and haven't been able to do it. But then, like when it came to teaching preaching, I also was like there's no way I could do this, because here I am, 35 years old, barely preaching, like my first sermon. You know, that was like another realm. So I was feeling a lot of like I was feeling stuck because I felt like I don't think I can succeed as a traditional teaching preaching pastor and I don't think I could succeed as a musician. Like what do I do? And clearly, you know, I was seeking significance in these things, was seeking significance in these things. And so, basically, I took some time off from ministry to go back to school. Carol is an MVP for this because we had two kids and she became the primary breadwinner of the house. And she said you know, I think you need to like be back with other people learning. You know I think you need to like discern God's call on your life. And so I went back to finish seminary, which I had started when I when I started as a worship director and it was the best decision of my life Because during that time, yeah, it was like I reconnected with my faith, like, apart from my position and, you know, I was healing from a lot of stuff that had happened in the past and I was meeting so many different people who were really pursuing cool things in the church, and so basically what that yielded was right around 35, 36,. 37:30 Carol and I decided we wanted a church plant, you know, and so I you know I had a mentor in seminary who was helping me kind of like vision cast for this church plant. We had a very out of the box vision for what that church plant looked like and you're one of the actually the first people I talked to about that idea and it was really like a manifestation of a lot of the things I had wrestled with personally, you know, over the course of my life, and it was seeing how the marketplace and the church could kind of come together sacred and secular, you know and it was this third space and a reimagining of the church, and we were super excited about it. And, you know, we had our launch team set and we basically were fully ready to start raising funds for it. And then, in the 11th hour, the church that I was a part of, where I was the worship director of the pastor, let me know that he was transitioning and that, you know, the leadership had decided they would like me to take over the church. And that was such a huge moment because, one, I knew nothing about leading a church. I knew nothing about being what being a pastor even looked like, let alone being a lead pastor of a church that was losing its founding pastor. And so at first, you know, carol and I respectfully declined because we just didn't feel like we were up for it, we felt very inadequate to do that. 39:03 But after a lot of prayer, a lot of meetings with different mentors of ours, the quote that kept coming back to us was this quote in Life Together by Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and he says people who love community destroy it, but people who love people create community everywhere they go. And for us, we realized that we had fallen so in love with this ideal of community, like this vision of this church that didn't exist, even exist yet. And there were all these people that were going to be without a shepherd, you know, and that there were all these people who were a part of our lives. They had been our community in this crazy season of our lives and we just felt like Jesus is prodding, like do you love me, feed my lambs, you know? And so, after a lot of prayer and discernment, we decided to step into that role. We asked for, made three requests, and it was one can we basically replant this church with, like a new leadership? So we brought in our launch team, so it's basically starting over. Can we change the name of the church to kind of mark this new season? And then can we move the location of the church to be more in line with, kind of our vision, to be more rooted in the middle of downtown LA, four months before the whole world shut down, you know. 40:39 And why I say, going back to why I say that that was such a gift to us in a way, was that I think when we first stepped into the role, I was struggling with a lot of yeah, again, a lot of imposter syndrome in terms of my mindset was how do I just sustain this church and keep this church from completely imploding under my leadership? So I wasn't, you know, making bold moves. I wasn't like doing the things that were on my heart because I was just so scared everyone was going to leave. Well, when the pandemic happened and the whole world shut down, it was basically this hard reset on the church so you couldn't even do church the same way, even if you wanted to. So we basically had a clean slate to try so many of the things that God had put on our hearts. 41:34 We basically like, during that time, as you know, I mean you had to, as a church, navigate so much grief. 41:42 You had to navigate transition, you had to navigate racial justice, politics, all these things that I would say pastors maybe have to go through in a 20-year span of ministry, like pastors had to navigate in one year. And for us to kind of launch our church in that season was a gift because, in some ways, when we came back after the pandemic, like it felt like wow, okay, this is a new church. And it really solidified our identity of around what kind of church do we want to be? How are we going to navigate these issues? That are going to continue to be issues moving forward. And it was a time where I was allowed to experiment with my preaching, you know, discover my own personal voice. Because, again, you know, I mean, you couldn't even preach the same way because you had to preach to a camera, and so that whole season was so important for me and I really see it in a lot of ways as the grace of God who allowed us to go through that. 42:52 - Speaker 3 Yeah, like when I first heard that you're going to be the lead pastor, I was like that's hilarious, because I knew it wasn't something you wanted, but it was kind of like put on your lap. How did you convince your wife to uproot her life to a place where she didn't know anything Like what convinced her? 43:08 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean definitely. I think she trusts me. But I think it was really interesting because when we got married she moved down from New York to be back in Philly. At the time I was serving at Renewal and I love that church. It had been my community since college. Shout out to Pastor Dwight and Paula like hugely impactful mentors in my life, dwight and Paula like hugely impactful mentors in my life. I was serving, I was a worship leader there, so I was so integrated into that community. 43:38 Carol came down and basically went back to her home church and at the time that wasn't necessarily her community but in the few months before marriage that community really embraced Carol, like the women of that church really embraced her, loved on her, and so a decision that I thought was going to be a no-brainer for both of us to now come to my church actually became a hotly contested topic before marriage where we were trying to figure out where you know where we were going to go together and both of us wanted to stay at the communities that we were a part of. I remember talking to one of my mentors and I kind of shared with him the entire situation and you know it was interesting because I completely assumed that he would say of course Carol should go to your church, you're super integrated there. I thought he was going to bring up Ephesians 5 and talk about wives submitting to their husbands and all this stuff, but he says, oh, this is the easiest decision you're ever going to have to make. And he was like he's like Jason, you should go. And he said you know you should go. And he said you know, part of what leadership actually looks like is you go first, you know you love first, and it's going to be a new community. He's like you have two options. 45:04 Either Carol comes into this community and everyone she meets is like she's going to be Jason's wife, you know. It's like, oh, you're Jason's wife, you know. Or you put yourself in an uncomfortable position. You lay down like these titles, like worship, leader, things like that, and you go to a church as a no namer and you be Carol's husband, you know, and, and so that's what I did and that's how we started our marriage and the the irony of this all is that the sacrifice carol made was exponentially greater than that sacrifice. You know, because it was crazy, because I went there and and at that the people at that church became some of my closest friends who I still love and who love me to this day. So it was an amazing decision even on that front. 45:58 But one of the things Carol did say when she said, let's go to LA, you doing that what you thought was such a small act like for me, it made me trust you to say Jason is not the type of husband that is just going to make me follow him everywhere, you know, but he's willing to go first, you know. And so I mean I always tell people I got the much sweeter end of the bargain there, because now here she is never asked to be a lead pastor's wife, but here she is now doing that. But I think, yeah, those moments, my encouragement maybe for husbands listening would be I think that's what for me, that's what leadership looks like, that's what loving your wife as Christ loved the church looks like. And obviously I don't do that perfectly, but I would say when I look back I think that advice was so important for me to hear early on and it set the tone for our whole marriage. 47:02 - Speaker 3 It's funny because it's the major moments in our lives that make the biggest impact, and so I'm realizing more and more I need to stay consistent, because I don't know when those major moments are until it happens and you look back and when I heard that story I was like, okay, I need to be more like jesus, like man, yeah. 47:24 So what is your hope for not just citizens, but for la, because I know you truly have a heart for the city, not just your church. That's part of the reason why I love your vision and what you're trying to do. So what is your hope in the next maybe five years or 10 years? 47:39 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, you're right, I never saw myself leading a big church and nor do I think I'm really good at it. To be honest, I think that's been a huge learning curve for me as the church has grown, learning how to be more of like an organizational leader. That's just so out of my wheelhouse. I think my sweet spot is more like is being more of a relational leader, and so a smaller size is more conducive to that. Yeah, I mean, and so a smaller size is more conducive to that. Yeah, I mean, one thing that I would hope for is that citizens can birth more churches in la. 48:17 I think there can't be enough churches in la. 48:20 It's a city that man desperately needs the gospel, where, I mean, I think you can say this about all the major cities, but especially in LA like celebrity culture, hollywood comfort, all of these things have such a chokehold on our city. And you know, I really think if we could mobilize and empower believers even at our church alone like there are so many movers and shakers in different industries and if we could mobilize and empower them to think differently about their life and about, you know, like, why God has placed them in the industries that he's placed them. I really think the city could be one for the gospel and yeah, and so I think for me, I would love to see more churches. But more than that, I would love to see like just more believers like really take ownership of their faith and be scattered in the different industries so like it's never been about, like building this, like I don't want to build a Babel, build something beautiful for ourselves. I would love to release people into the city and see them change their respective industries. 49:41 - Speaker 3 Okay, last couple of questions. What are you hoping for at Faithly? 49:54 - Speaker 1 think the thing that was most attractive to me was just the opportunity to connect with other pastors and leaders who are doing amazing things that we might never hear about if we weren't intentionally connected with them you know, and like, especially at a church like ours. 50:07 You're so busy like running your own church and you're so in the weeds it's very rare that you have the time to build relationships with people outside of your community. For example, our children's director, for her to be able to connect with other children's ministry directors. I mean, that's like so hard to do, like even relationships within the church are so hard to do, and I feel like the beauty of Faithfully is that it bridges that gap. You know, and I think for a lot of ministry leaders, pastors, you can feel so alone and you can feel so isolated and I feel like there really isn't a vehicle that kind of helps us to connect with, you know, people doing the same things where we feel less alone. We know that what we're grappling with is not like unique to us, where we can share resources and really do this thing together, because I don't think the work of the kingdom is something that one church can do. So I think I'm most excited about the collaborative opportunities across churches. 51:20 - Speaker 3 And how can we be praying for you and your family? 51:22 - Speaker 1 I would say, first and foremost for my marriage. I remember reading about a pastor who was asked the question like how's your ministry doing? And his answer was ask my wife. And yeah, I think, like as the church has grown and as ministry responsibilities continue to kind of increase, I want to make sure that my marriage is a priority, my family is a priority, and so and I know that's kind of where the enemy will strike, you know, ministry leaders um their marriages, their families, and so right now, thankfully, I feel like carol and I are in a, are finding a really good rhythm and our kids are in a nice sweet spot. They're nine and six, so they're like just kind of self-sufficient enough, but you know they haven't fully entered the pubescent stage. But but yeah, I mean I would say the biggest thing would be, you know, for for God to protect my marriage, my family, and I think that will be the most impactful thing for even my, my own ministry. 52:29 - Speaker 3 Thanks, jason. This was a long time coming. This was fun. All right, that's it for the podcast ministry. 52:33 - Speaker 2 Thanks, Jason, this was a long time coming. 52:34 - Speaker 3 This was fun. All right, that's it for the podcast guys, Bye. 52:36 - Speaker 2 Thank you for tuning in to the Faithly Stories podcast. We pray this episode gave you the encouragement you needed to continue on your journey. The Faithly Stories podcast is brought to you by Faithly, an online community committed to empowering church leaders, pastors, pastors, staff and volunteers. The Faithly digital platform offers innovative and practical tools and resources to enhance connection, foster collaboration and promote growth within the church and ministry space. Remember to subscribe, rate and review our podcast to help reach more listeners like you. Stay tuned for more uplifting tales from the front lines of ministry on the Faithly podcast. Stay bold, stay faithful and never underestimate the power of your own story.