Double Helix: Faith and Family - J.P. De Gance | Faithly Podcast

It's just that most haven't, I think, fully grasped that it's our failure to disciple our young people well through a healthy Christian marriage that is the big app. This is the Faithly Podcast. Welcome to another episode of Faithly Podcast. My name is Pastor Adam Durso and my guest today is JP De Gance. He is the founder and president of Communion, won't you say hi to your audience? Yeah, Adam. Thanks for having me. It's great to be with you and looking forward to the conversation today. I think it's going to be great. I love your energy, by the way, JP. I just want to say that. All right. Good. I'm bringing the dragon energy. Let's do it. Yeah. We're bringing all the energy. DC, New York. The whole deal right here. Right. That's it. JP's went on the forefront of helping churches strengthen relationships, marriages and families. JP, what's your background and what led up to free Communion? What was that? How does that like? How this all come together? How this happened? Yes. God has really has been a huge hand in my life that's why I'm here. I guess background. I came to DC like a lot of people to try to save America by working in politics, right? It was very motivating on the life issue and came to DC and God started to show me that so much of what I was worrying about in the country was downstream of an illness in the American soul, right? That collapse of marriage in the family. This became really clear to me. Gosh, 17 years ago now, a close family member, her marriage ended in an abusive way. My wife and I took in her four kids. They were 10, 11, 14 and 15 and our kids at the time were three and under and we just saw what happens when families fail in a terrible way and started to, God, use that in my heart to start to rethink what I was doing, what I was really prioritizing. And eventually, gosh, in 2013, I looked at, you know, what would it start asking the question, what would it look like to take a lot of what I'd learned in the private sector and public policy, baptize it, sanctify it, bring it into the service of the church, to really affect change on marriage and family outcomes. And ultimately, that's far more important than what goes on in the political world. And oftentimes, shapes it. Everything in our society is shaped by our underlying social science. How people live determines everything else that's going on in our world. So we started a pilot initiative and we hit Paydirt in that pilot initiative in Jackson, ville, Florida. What year was that? Gosh, we spent a year and a half just studying the landscape because it feels like this is more like a journey. This is like a moment that happened. No, that's right. You know, you kind of start with this, you know, reactions to something that happens in your family that you feel deeply. And now you're set on a trajectory that's like politics and private sector and all this other stuff I'm doing, maybe I need to be viewing this differently, maybe I need to be on a different path. What was that? Yeah, I got a phone call. It's a good question. So I got a phone call, January 2013 from a place called the philanthropy roundtable. Yes. And they were looking for a new chief operating officer. And I thought, wow, this might be a great place to land as I'm processing these ideas. I can get out of the every two year drumbeat of campaigns and the electoral cycle and look longer term. And I worked. I shared with the president of the organization at the time, a great guy, Adam Meierson. And I said, look, I don't want to look like, but I'd love to work with philanthropists to think through how we improve family outcomes, how we get more people to church, engage to church. He said, yeah, you'd come over and think through that while you're here. And we started community as a pilot initiative there at the philanthropy roundtable. And we spent about a year and a half, I hired a gentleman who was also on the same journey with me came from the political world. And we thought we did a gap analysis of the space. We recognized there's a lot of life-changing content resources out there, but it usually doesn't get to those who most need it, okay, in the marriage and family world. And we thought, wow, what if we scaled the number of life-changing resources that could exist in a community and then bring to bear the very best marketing and outreach tools to make it stick and grow it. And gosh, we designed the pilot, raised capital, spent it, beginning in Q4 2015, ended Q4 2018. In that time frame, in Jacksonville, Florida, we worked with 93 churches and moved 58,912 people. Over three years through four hours or longer relationship skills via the county. And we saturated the folks with digital outreach, inviting them to come to those churches. I had a phenomenal partner and I have to always, I always love to single out Richard Albertson, my friend Dennis Stoica and live the life ministries, which was a core anchor partner for us, sure, on the resources. And the net net, Adam was the divorce rate dropped 24% in that three years span. So, I mean, before we get to just the results, for the person that's watching this right now and they're trying to figure out what exactly is Communionio, how would you describe it? Gosh, we're, okay, I would say, we're not far from DC right now, I like to share with other people who get that here is, we're like a world class campaign consultant to the local church, except we're not running a campaign to help the church win an election. We're helping a church run a campaign to win on marriage and the family to reach out to the community, draw people in who would never otherwise come to the local church to experience the life changing relationship with the God Man, Jesus Christ and to see healing in their marriage and their relationship, right? So we are a B2B, we exist to serve and equip the local church, if we do our job, well, no one in the church outside the leadership team knows that we're there, okay? So we are not showing up between the pulpit and the pews, we're behind the pulpit supporting the leadership team to be transformative in their ministry, right? Most pastors, pastors know there's something going on right now. There's a lot of brokenness, there's a lot of relational nihilism, there's a lot of woundedness in our communities, particularly coming from a brokenness in families and the lack of family formation. And so we think this is a huge opportunity for the church to serve into a felt need to share the gospel. But we also realize that when you do it and you do it well, we're going to solve a giant problem in the community. And then many more people will come to faith because the church has become very relevant to them and what's going on in their lives. As somebody that's been in past all ministry for over 25 years myself, hearing that you're behind the pastor, equipping the pastor and kind of just, you know, the curries should not even aware that you're doing what you're doing is amazing. And here's how I heard Communion describe. It's both research driven and pastoral nature. And those things sound like a dichotomy to me. Yes. Because they don't normally go together, JP. So how do you get research driven and pastoral working together in Communion and then obviously equipping the church? We know. I tell people, there's no gospel mandate to be unsophisticated, okay? The reality is, is our Lord asked us, we're supposed to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength, okay? So we should be applying, what's the best way to deploy Kingdom capital, okay? And so if I can grab good research, right, good research to understand how to husband and deploy resources, that's being faithful, that's being a faithful steward. The master is given each of us talents, okay? And he's going to expect us at the end, he's going to ask us, how do we do? What do we do with it? What was the return on those 10 talents, those five talents, those, that one talent, whatever, how did we, how did we deploy it? Okay. And so we say that we want to take a John the Baptist approach, we want to decrease, we want the local church to increase. And so we're going to help the local church develop a data informed full circle relationship ministry. It's using data to understand what's going on right now with your local people. What's going on in the surrounding community? By full circle relationship ministry, the point here is that this is a full church ministry. So anybody listening to this might think, this is just a marriage ministry that's great, I got other things to do. The reality is human relationships is a universal thing. We're, we got made us to be social creatures, okay, we come into this world through a family, okay? And the church is a family of families, okay? So, so that means from youth, young adult, those single, those seriously dating, the engaged, those married, and that means those married who are thriving and those married who are struggling, every, every element of the church can be touched by an intentional approach to a full circle relationship ministry. It's, it's animated Adam, like we bring it into life through what we call the ministry engagement ladder. It's a four step approach that's iteratively run through invitation and that invitation is both inside and out. So it's both those already part of your church and then helping the church to think through this kind of ministry as a front porch to the community. And then into outreach, right, church that used to do an outreach, a 90% fund, 10% enrichment, built around relationship health in some way, shape, or form, or whether that's infused into it. That might be a family black party. It could be a spring black party. Something that catches a heterogeneous group of singles and married, and then into ongoing engagement that is, that's building ongoing Christian community that might be monthly, it might be weekly, that's now still fun, more fun to enrichment, right? They're not yet ready frequently, they're not automatically ready to just make the altar call show up to church on Saturday, but we're trying to build those kinds of human relationships, the stickiness within the ministry. And then ultimately that four step is the growth journey, okay? At each level below the growth journey, we have playbooks, play sheets, we've run hundreds and hundreds of times with churches around the country on how to do the fun and how to do the enrichment, all white labeled when it's done well, nobody in the church knows that we're there. And then you get to that growth journey level, we cure it. We recognize the best stuff, there's amazing stuff that can affect change on relationship health, both on spiritual skills and human skills, but most pastors just don't know where to go and where to turn, which one should we grab, whose mouth trap and why? So we don't, we have evaluated those different resources and help the church figure out what they should deploy. And ultimately, last year we had our church partner churches, 82,600 plus people came for in real life ministry through our church partners, okay? On the outreach level was about 50,000 of those, a third, almost a third were from outside of the church. They weren't members of the church, so we're meaningfully helping the church bring people to the church and then have an ongoing play and strategy to get them moved into active membership. And the reality is, Adam, thanks be to God, it's working, okay? So let's talk about it's working, because it sounds like there is this duality of transformation, it's changing the community because people that are not inside the church are coming in the church and they're getting, they're getting minister to, but it also sounds like it's doing something for the believers that are already in such a, what kind of transformation are you seeing? Yeah, look, the reality is in every church there's a significant number of people who are struggling in their marriage. Now sometimes people repeat this idea, the marriage is just as bad in the church as outside the church, that's not true based on the data, okay? People go to church, where active in the church have healthier marriages, but they're not, but they're still a large number who aren't doing well, right? One in, based on our survey data, close to about 22% of those sitting in the church on Sunday who are married are struggling. So one in five marriages that are sitting in pews or in chairs and every, they're on Sunday who are attending church regularly, their marriage is in trouble. Yeah, and it's not equal across men and women. So married women in church on Sunday are 62% more likely to say that they're struggling right now than their husbands, okay? And the peak gap between married church going women and married church going men and married satisfaction are women and men who are married in their 30s, okay? Women in their 30s who are married in church are 109% more likely to say that they're struggling than their husbands. And I'd like to note, look, if you're concerned about equity, don't wear the gap closes in their 40s, so married Christian women and men both are on average a bit more miserable in their 40s, so the gap closes, okay? Okay. Okay, so there's a huge reason for people in the church to, for immediate pastoral action. The other big thing that's not as fully grasped, I think, oftentimes is that the number of people getting married is in significant decline, okay? And this is a threat to the future of Christian faith in the country, 80% of everybody sitting in church on Sunday, okay, grew up under the age of 60, grew up in an intact married family, okay? And we're at an all-time low of the number of people getting married. And we know that the loneliest people at them in our communities are not the elderly. And in the church, it's not the elderly. The loneliest people are the unmarried in their, actually statistically speaking, it's the unmarried in their 30s, okay? Are far more lonelier than even the loneliest group of widows? So there's huge need for the church to speak its prophetic voice on marriage, because marriage isn't just a nice to have. God created it as the covenantal sign of his love for his church, the bride, okay? And so when Christian marriage is well lived, it glorifies God and it points back to his solidified plan for all, for all of humanity. It was God's gift to humanity to point to himself, right? And so this is a marriage is itself a gospel issue. So that's one of our key points to churches is getting engaged and advancing marriage to live marriage well is super important. So marriage ministry is not just another ministry in the lineage of programs that, you know, so many churches are dealing with, and you know, you made this bold statement that marriage and relationships are at the center to discipleship and church growth. Yeah. What do you mean by that? Yeah, look, the original small group was the family, right? That's the original small group. And the reality is, as we know, right, the only, the only commandment that carries with it an explicit blessing is honoring your father and mother. And I think in Ephesians 5, right, Paul, the apostle, I think double clicks on that with the connection of marriage to Christ and his love, sacrificial love for his bride, the church, right? And he, right, the apostle writes that to be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ. Yes. Okay. If we go back to first century when those letters were being written, we can't underestimate how dynamite that absolutely was with an ancient world where there was no equality of dignity between the sexes. And so when we say that marriage and relationship ministry is vital for discipleship and the passing on the faith, the shaman, Deuteronomy 6, what do we hear in the great prayers that parents should walk with their children and talk with them about the Lord's way and teach our children the Lord's commandments, okay? The shaman gives a discipleship methodology for parent to child. And then we see the relationship between mom and dad pointing back and glorifying God by being an icon of the church. So what do we see today? The most important, we'll have a new study coming out super, incredibly soon, that I've reviewed on passing the torch with our partnership with the Institute for Family Studies. It shows the single most important factor of whether or not an adult grows up to have faith in Jesus Christ is his relationship with his parents, the marriage of his parents, the quality of his parents, marriage, and how his parents have discipled and formed them. This new study is so interesting to me, I told you off camera that I was really excited to delve into this conversation because my mom and dad are pastors, I've seen their marriage, myself, my two brothers, all in ministry. Let's start really here at the impetus. What prompted you to say, we're going to create a partnership and explore how parents and their faith is being passed generationally to their children? Yeah, great question. So ultimately, it goes back to 2019, 1819, I take a step back. We begin to try to understand trends and understand what's going on to help the church. We partnered with a professor at the University of Texas, Austin, on a large study that was a big aha, my first big aha, on a new that marriage and faith are a double helix that I'm using a term from an author named Mary Everstad. She's got a book called How the West Really Lost God. In 2014, they got made to really start thinking differently about how these two things are deeply interrelated. And then in 2018, in funding a large study, a large survey, I asked the sociologist who had done the study for a cross tab, a cross tab is when you take two different questions and then look at how it plays out. And so we looked at family of origin and church attendance. So this family of origin question was, were your parents married through adulthood? Did they divorce before 18? Did they divorce after 18? Did they never marry? What we saw was if your parents always remained married, either to death or they were never not married, they're still living. You were significantly more likely to go to church than people from any other family structure. So from what we could tell was the first time anybody had looked at those two things. And then I quickly realized, we did a study with the Barna Group, Adam, that found that 85% of all churches spend nothing in the area marriage and relationship ministry. So the area that you're identifying as maybe the most important area for, from generation to generation, for the passing on of our faith, for the securing of discipleship, and most churches don't even care about it, they're just, it's not that, yes, in a certain sense, but it's not like they don't care, it's because they don't know what happens as we see the apostasy of our young people, right, Adam. And we're seeing the growth and religious non-affiliation over a 40 year span has been huge. There's a term in the social science that they use called generational succession, almost the entire explanation of the reduction in Christian faith over the last 45 years is not deconstruction, although that's a problem. It's not because people as adults who are believers for a long time become religious sons, it's that each succeeding generation does a worse job of discipling the younger generation so that when they get to adulthood, they've already opted out of faith. Okay, so generational succession is the biggest explanation. It's just that most haven't, I think, fully grasped that it's our failure to disciple our young people well through a healthy Christian marriage that is the big gap. Now I will add to it, right, look, in the 1960s, 70s and 80s, you had a more Christian culture that reinforced certain norms that's gone away, but all of that reinforces the real need for mom and dad in the local church to disciple their kids well. And what this study now shows, which will be coming out in May, if you grew up in an attack married home, we know this, you're more likely to go to church. If you say that mom and dad, you have a better relationship, you have a good relationship with mom, dad, a warm relationship with mom and dad, you're more likely to go to church. If you had frequent conversations with your mom and dad about faith, you're more likely to go to church. We know the things that give rise to faith transmission to help people choose to follow Jesus in adulthood. So we see our big, big push as a ministry to help the local church to be the hub for this, to lead a Christ-centered relationship revolution so that people choose and opt into a healthy Christian marriage, to live that marriage well in a way that glorifies God, to then disciple their kids well, and then to plug them in to a healthy Christian community through the local church. And you're saying that that is the greatest predictor to what the future of Christianity from generation to generation actually looks like? Yes, yes. What I'm saying is something very old, right? It's right there in Deuteronomy 6th and the Shemaah, right? If we can help raise our children in a way to know the Lord's commands and to know the Lord's love for us in our life, right? We should expect to see our kids grow to know and love and serve the Lord, right? And so in a certain sense, we are finding out the data keeps pointing back to the scriptural evidence, right? And I think what's happened, right? We've gone through a cultural revolution. That's like, I think in defense of the church and where we've been, we've gone through a cultural revolution. We had a massive decoupling of the family and the 1960s where sex was disconnected from marriage, parenting, and partnering. And so you had the rapid rise in non-marital households in the 1960s. So you're saying to some extent, we're still feeling the impact of stuff because my mind I'm thinking, yeah, well, I mean, the revolution of the 60s is, you know, is that still echoing? Is that still resonating? Yes. Yes. You're reverberating right now in the culture and what our families are, our senses. Yes, that's right. So there's evidence that maybe the revolution, the cult, the effects have hit a level that stabilized, okay? And I'm going to use the big data points is the rise in non-marital households. It starts in 1960 and grows consistently up until, depending on the, which trendline you're looking, it stabilizes between the year 2008 and 2015, okay? So family structure starts to stabilize 50, 60 years and then it starts to stabilize and at the, the newest data in the last 10 years, it started to level up. We've been at a majority, a simple majority of young adults every year. If you hit the age of 18, somewhere around 46% of all 18 year olds reach the age of 18 with a continuously married mom and dad, which means a majority of all adults are from a home where mom and dad did not stay continuously married, okay? That trend level somewhere between 2008 and 2015, depending on which data set you're looking at. And I think it's not surprising to me as somebody who's witnessing, who's really trying to follow religious trends, faith trends, okay? In the last four years, religious non-affiliation is also flatline for the first time. In, since 1986, Pew started to show, about four years ago, kind of a leveling of religious non-affiliation. It's no longer growing, but it's not getting necessarily better. It's flatline, gallop has shown some, there's different data. It's largely, it's wobbling back and forth between improving, not improving. That's a, you know, some people are proving and not improving is still better than- It's better than- We're on the 100%. I tell people. Some people say, is it a revival? I say it this way. It's seeds of a revival. There's some green shoots that you can see, okay? There's diligence by the part of the local church, and I think it's the renewal of marriage and family life that our Lord is calling us to, that we have gotten so far away from the norms of the normative life of husband and wife, raising kids in a married home, discipling, and encouraging them, right? It's hard to know for a child who, 81% of all kids in a single parent home are with mom, okay? And what we know is boys, we need, when we were boys, we needed dad to show us a model what authentic masculinity looks like, okay? And if we don't experience the love then of an earthly father, right? So what we know is, is an unmarried dad even the most engaged unmarried dads are only interacting with their kids about once every eight days within three years of separation from mom. So like, those are the very best of nonmarried, married dads statistically, most engaged, okay? If I'm not seeing dad, I'm not experiencing on a real human level, the love of my earthly father, now I'm being encouraged that there's a father in heaven who loves me, and so love me that he's and his only son to die for me, right? To open up heaven for me. It's harder for me to relate to that heavenly father, right? And I think that's one of the big things I want pastors to know. Yes, so that's where I want to go. I mean, how are you helping pastors and equipping them so that then they're leading their churches so that these conversations in the house are actually happening? Yes, so we've developed a number of resources for the pastor, right? So within the full circle relationship ministry, we're helping make it normal that everybody works on the skills, the human and the spiritual skills to have a healthy relationship, okay? So from a singles to the married, they should know how to communicate, look, we all have these mobile devices, which is another type of revolution in personal connection. Sure, I mean, how many times do you just see people sitting across David from each other, they're both looking at their face, they're not even engaging each other? I was in a Starbucks recently, and I thought to myself, this whole thing was built on the third space and community, and realize now that you can order on your mobile app, everybody's just walking up to the counter, grabbing their drink and walking out, they're not even having conversations anymore. Yes, but how are you engaging when you've got everybody seemingly addicted to a mobile device and yet needing to have the skill set for us to have a conversation? Yeah, yeah, look, there's, there's, there's an area, I always like to note to pastors that as a, a gustan said, all truth is God's truth. So we don't have to be afraid of truth. And there's a good academic literature on, on the skills to have a healthy relationship. There's inter-personal skill areas, intra-personal skills areas, and we provide the white-labeled resources for churches to drop those skills in, to fun events and simple ways from a communication appreciation. One of my favorite ones is just appreciation. We know in the Christian walk, right, practicing habits of gratitude to God for all that we've got. He's so important. I tell my kids, you show me a grateful person, I'll show you a happy person, and a spiritually healthy person. Agreed. And, and so, but what does that look like in my marriage, right, as an example, right? A lot of times we might think, my husband, he's, he's not helping with the kids, he's not helping this. My wife is, is, is nagging me about this, he's, she's, you know, challenging me on that. And the simple habit of, of, of stopping and thinking about what are you, but what are you grateful for to, for your wife today about, you know, what are you grateful for your son for? Maybe, have, have I thought to say, you know, I'm really glad my husband went to go pick up, Billy from practice, and, you know, that helped me because I was, I was running around and couldn't do it, right, just stopping and being grateful for simple things is an example of a skill. And so what we, we help a church, you know, for instance, a parents' night out as giving an example, a church might host a parents' night out, and it could be at, at a local, at a local restaurant, a reserved area, a simple testimony, a simple skill, like activity where, you know, 40 couples are there, and they practice a skill in an otherwise fun end environment, and they're around other people who are practicing a skill, but it's only 25 minutes of a three hour night, and, and they're, and they're building the Christian community where they're enjoying spending time with one another off of a device in real life in ministry. Having a church, for instance, with, think through child care, and normalizing it for ministry to young families. I shared with you that the peak gap is in marriage satisfaction, is married men and women in their 30s. What do we know about them? They have little kids, okay, and it's, they're, they have less money than they'll have on average, later in their marriage, they're more stressed physically, and so a church providing child care for some simple respite, and, and, and providing them with a, a kit to go out and have a good date together, you know, or, or host something to be able to do that. Couples who date, particularly in that key period where kids are young, have much higher levels of marital satisfaction, higher levels of marital success, right? And so these are just examples, right? So we'll coach a church to help them think through, what are you already doing? Kids are doing a lot of things right, they're doing a lot of things right, and what we find is there's some simple tweaking that they can also quickly do to infuse good relationship skills and community into, into how they're ministering to people, infusing good vision on biblical marriage for single people, so they prioritize it more. So, so that our young people are more likely to get married at a time that's historically healthy, and that the, the research shows it, you know, it's somebody who gets married in their mid 20s, that's a historically normal time, and they have much better life outcomes, better faith outcomes, and, and we want to see the local church be a, be, we want the local church to be a place that is not changed by the world, but we want to see the church change the world through relationships. I mean, I, I'm already thinking in my mind here, JP, of churches that I sit on the board of Oversey and say they got to be introduced to community, because this is fantastic. I, I want to ask you one real high level question, let's go 37,000 feet in the air. What gives you hope over the next 10 to 20 years for the future of the church and the family? Look, I want to encourage everybody first off, sometimes Christians can curse the darkness, we can throw our shoes at the TV set, and the, the story of salvation history is not linear, it's cyclical, right? The story of, of sin, repentance, and, and redemption is, is a cycl, the life of, of God's people is cyclical, and the reality is that the 1920s was actually a lot less faithful on average in America than the 1950s, okay? And I, I think the reality is, is the, the future will be a lot better for the church, because God's built in certain norms where, you know, people, fidelity leads to fruitfulness, which leads to more fruitfulness, which sometimes leads to, sometimes people become complacent, and then there's more sin, and there's more need of renewal. So, so this is a cyclical thing, okay, is, is one point. So I think we already seen some of the seeds of that cyclical nature, right? So I think the world has drunk deeply of the revolutionary thoughts of the 1960s, and sought, uh, happiness of, away from, uh, from God's plan, right? Where away from Christian marriage, and there's a lot of nihilism, we now have, uh, generational poverty in America for the first time, that's grounded in our flight from marriage, that's what the social science says, the people who escape poverty, the most on average, are those in healthy marriages, okay, they're, they're most likely to escape it and have better life outcomes, and they're more, a better faith outcomes. So they've kind of, as, as a population, they gone away from God and realized they've come to the end of themselves, and there's really no satisfaction. Yeah. And you believe that that's going to be a returning back, yeah, to the things that God had in store for us. Tim Keller talked about this in the shift of the move from the memetic life where we seek purpose outside of ourselves in the, the deeper permanent things in, in family and in faith, and we've sought this, the, the meaning in ourselves inwardly, and we define purpose and meaning from whatever, whatever we want to make of it. And so some people have continued to seek the, the enduring goods, but what's happened is a lot of people have, have sought what the world has told them, seek a career above a family, seek maman instead of, instead of faith. And there's a lot of emptiness, there's loneliness. We've never had more suicidal thoughts, more, more addiction, and so I think you're seeing with the growth and interest, the new Gallup poll shows men made a major improvement in their prioritizing of religion and faith. I think we're seeing the beginnings of people turning back to the memetic, seeing back to the enduring goods of faith and the enduring goods of family, but that means the church needs to give its prophetic voice. The local church needs to bring its prophetic voice to, to this present moment, to bring, bring about this Christ-centered revolution of, of, of Christian marriage and relationships. I love it. JP, as we close this episode of Faithly Podcast, where can people find, you find, the community, where can they go? There are pastors that are all over our platform ministers that are engaged in churches that are, that are listed to this, their ears are perched, they're, they're being stirred right now. What's the next step for them? Yeah. Go to our website, communio.org, and, and, and, and, and for questions, what's on? Communio.org C-O-M-M-U-N-I-O.org. Okay. Okay. And we're, we're, request a meeting for a free consultation with our church service team. Okay. You can sign up. There's free resources right now on our, under our research bar. Okay. Our, our pastors guide on transmitting faith from parent to child is on there and has a lot of good resources. Our nationwide study and faith and relationships. I, I'd read that, go through it. Okay. And then you may be part of a church network that's already partnered with communio. When that exists, the, the support services come down, our costs are all donor supported, we're a nonprofit ministry. Okay. We're trying to take philanthropic capital and marry it, pun intended with kingdom capital. Okay. And, and our costs when a church network partners with us dropped by 75% that we can support a church. So you might be part of a church network that is already partnering with us and you may be eligible for those, those services and, and someone from our team would be able to let you know. JP, and it just to all the other people that have stirred out there, I'm stirred. I love this. I'm married 26 years. I've got three kids in their 20s. And to hear you talk about the hope, the future, relationship building in the church dynamically from generation to generation, it matters to me. And so thank you for this conversation. This has been another episode of Faithley podcast, my guest JP DeGance, Bounder, and present of communio. My name's fast to Adam Derskete to follow us on all the channels. As we continue to provide great content for you and stir you toward hope and great works. God bless you.