From Gilded Age Elite to Gospel Hospitality - Pennie Morgan | Faithly

You know, I have 10 employees and they know everything about me because I live here. So it's not like a typical like boss employee relationship where there's I can kind of like look very put together all the time. And they see all my like weaknesses. They see me shuffling around when I'm sick and in my pajamas. Like, you know, everything. This is The Faithly Podcast. Today on The Faithly Podcast, I'm so excited to be joined by my friend, Penny Morgan. She's the director of Hepzibah House, and Penny and her family have opened up their lives in this really unique way, living out a ministry of hospitality right here in the heart of New York City. I'm excited for you to hear more about her story, to hear more about the heart behind this work, and really how God is using it to serve leaders and to serve ministries. So, Penny, maybe we can start with this question. For those who are unfamiliar, what is Hepzibah House, and who is it designed to serve? Well, thank you, Alicia, for having me on. This is something I've been looking forward to quite a bit. So like Faithly, our ministry is also really towards other Christians. So Christian leaders, that's who we mainly serve. Just to kind of give you a lay of the land, Hepzibah House is a townhouse on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. So that means it's tall and skinny, many floors, lots of stairs. We have seven floors altogether, plus a rooftop. I'm in the basement right now where we have a little recording studio for ministry leaders to use free of charge, which is really fun. But our main ministry is a guest house ministry, which has been going for many, many decades. We have four floors of guest rooms, 15 rooms for specifically for people in full time ministry to have an affordable place to stay in New York City, where hotels are very expensive. and kind of impersonal. This is a place where you can come and stay. You can come to New York for any reason as a ministry leader for a family trip, for a retreat, for a conference, missions trip, lots of any reason. We don't insist that it's like a missional reason. We just want you to be in full-time ministry on a ministry salary. in order to use our guest rooms. And then we also have ministry space in the more common places in the house, common spaces. So it's a historic brownstone house. So kind of like a mansion, like a New York City mansion. It's kind of, it's an amazing building, like all this original wallpaper, woodwork, a grand staircase. It's a really special house and it lends itself to really being a great space for ministry events. So everything from like fundraisers to worship nights to art, artists gatherings and all kinds of things. We lend out, rent out our space at an affordable rate for ministry in New York City. So there's usually something happening here every day in our common spaces. And then my family and I live here in the house too. We have a staff of about 10. Usually three or four of us are here any given day. We have full-time housekeepers, front desk staff, and then myself, I'm the director. Wow, thank you for painting that picture for us, Penny. As someone who has been very grateful to record in your podcast studio, let me just say that when I'm recording there, I'm not just recording there and using the equipment and being blessed by that. amazing people who are in ministry, who are using the guest house for all manner of different reasons. And we're getting to meet one another. We're swapping stories. We're being blessed by the community that you bring together in this space. It's really special. Yeah, it kind of feels like a small town during the day. Like everyone's kind of coming in and out, using it for different things, running into each other. And we host all flavors of Christians. So if you're an Apostles' Creed Christian, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Catholic, all the things. So that's really fun for us is getting to see how God's at work all over the world through our guests and around our city. That's amazing. I mean, that's one of the things that we believe in here at Faithfully very strongly is just the importance of bringing all the different streams of our Christian faith together. So while you were talking, I know a whole bunch of our listeners sat bolt upright with lots of questions. You answered some of them. But let me ask some of the questions that I know they're wondering about right now. which is, okay, when you say ministry, what exactly do you mean by that? Do I have to be a lead pastor somewhere? Do I have to actually be on staff at a church? Like, how do you define ministry? We define ministry pretty broadly. So that could be pastors and missionaries, obviously, but also parachurch ministry. If you work for a Christian college or school, as long as it's your full-time job, And you're on a salary that is fundraised funds, whether through tithes and offerings or you're personally raising your own support. So if you're a really committed church elder or volunteer, that doesn't really count. But if you are in full time work and it's your vocation, our guest rooms are available for you. Okay, that's very clear. Now, I know there are some listeners who are like, hey, that's me. How do I book? Like, I know how to book a room at the Marriott. I know how to, you know, look for a hotel in Midtown. How do I get in touch with you, Penny, and with Hepzibah? Yeah, our website is hhouse.org, and there's a button in the upper corner that says book your stay. And it is a lot like booking at the Marriott. So you choose your dates, and whatever rooms are available will pop up, and you can book it just like a hotel. And we will, you know, ask you what your ministry role is, and there'll be kind of an approval step. But it's pretty quick, and we try to keep it convenient and also low cost. Yeah. Wow, that's so cool. So in my role at Faithly, I will go to conferences around the country, ministry conferences, and I will encounter pastors and other ministry leaders from around the country and around the world. And when they hear that I'm from New York City, a lot of them, their eyes light up and they express dreams about coming here to visit, but also to minister. They have these dreams of reaching the people of New York City, but the cost is so prohibitive. And so to have something like Hepzibah House really is just such a blessing. And I'm excited for even more people to know about it. Now, one of the other ways in which Hepzibah House blesses, I think, all of us is not just what it does today, but what it's done over time. There's something about the history, I think, of the house that really blesses us. Can you talk about it? Because it didn't start out how it's being used today. Yeah. I did not start it. I'd have to be 150 years old. We've been going since 1893. It was founded by a woman called Virginia Field, who was kind of a Gilded Age elite woman. If you've seen the show Gilded Age, that was her world. She lived in these kind of elite circles. And she was a believer, really interested in world missions especially. And so she opened... not out of her own home, but bought another building along with a committee of like-minded women, a missionary training school for women. So she hosted and trained missionaries who went all over the world and had this whole teaching staff and all of that. And there was always a guest house component. So missionary traveling through New York, there was always like a guest room available for that. So over time, the school kind of closed and the board leaned into the guest house ministry to use up most of the house. So we've been doing that, I mean, probably since 1930s, primarily like short term stays with missionaries, pastors, people like that. But yeah, we've had so many interesting visitors over the years. I have guest books from like 1914 all the way back. And then we've been in this building since 1924. And Hepzibah bought it from a family that lived here. So it's still like a real original floor plan. It feels like a family home. And a lot of brownstones in New York have been chopped up into apartments and renovated within an inch of their lives. Yeah. It's really a special house to steward, and it dates from 1891, so it's the same age as the ministry itself, basically. Wow, that's incredible. And you all have renovated as well, but unlike other brownstones where things are renovated to new contemporary styles, what I've observed is that you've taken great pains to preserve original details and historic features. Can you talk a little bit about that? what that process is like and why it's so important to you. Yeah, it's really funny. The Lord is so funny because I have always loved old things. I get that from my grandfather, who was a big genealogy guy and loved history. And we also did tons of historic house tours as kids. Like that was our family thing on vacation. So we'd go do that. So, God is so funny because now I feel like I'm getting to use that. It's an unusual ministry job in that like half of it honestly is maintaining this building. And so, you know, one day I'm hanging out with pastors and talking with guests and doing like kind of more traditional ministry work. And then another day I'm tracking down like someone who can restore historic stained glass or I'm shopping for historic like hardware for wood. a cabinet that needs a new knob or, you know, there's all these kind of fun historic preservation projects that I really enjoy. That's like it's like a treat. Those are the really fun little treats for me to get to do that. And Yeah, it is a really old house. Stuff breaks all the time. And I have a wonderful husband, Andy, who has he has a whole other job, but we call him the super around here because he really does so much to fix things and make things look look really great from the outside. But, you know, modern on the inside, right? Like all the wiring is new and the lighting is new and he's refinished floors. I mean, he's done so many things, but it really is fun. And like just a privilege to take care of such a beautiful old house and let people use it and enjoy it. That's so cool. The joy that you experience in your ministry and in the work you do, like every facet of it is so evident and is contagious. And I think it's one of the reasons why people love being at Hepzibah House. Now, I've talked about some of the layers of blessing that your guests feel when they're in Hepzibah House. I talked about just the being in the space, using the room or the equipment. running into the community, also being steeped in the history, the rich history of the house. But can you talk a little bit about from your perspective, why is something as simple as this place to stay, the space to use, so encouraging and so strengthening for the leaders who come through? Yeah, I mean, one piece is in New York City, probably the main limiting factor for ministry is physical space. It's so expensive to rent the back room of a restaurant to do something midweek if your church doesn't have their own building. So many, many churches rent an auditorium from a school on Sundays or something like that and need somewhere to meet in the middle of the week. And we just make that possible. So just on a purely like usefulness level, I think it's the house is really able to be a blessing. I mean, we do a few of our own events, but the majority, vast majority of what happens in this house are outside organizations who need ministry space and we can be a blessing in that way. But then as far as like hospitality and strengthening leaders, I like to think that what we're doing is just trying to prefigure heaven a little bit. And I don't mean that in like a like nostalgic sort of sentimental kind of way. I mean, like in a scriptural way. Recently, one of our... housekeepers, retired after 27 years working in the house. She's probably turned over thousands of guest rooms. I mean, it is definitely in the thousands. Making the same beds over and over again and vacuuming the same floors, cleaning the bathrooms. I mean, all that laundry, sheets and towels. It's repetitive and hard work and all the stairs. We have no elevator. So God bless her. I mean, she definitely got her steps in. That was 27 years. But when we were kind of seeing her off and having a kind of gathering, a little like send-off party for her, I just shared with her that she has been working alongside Jesus all these years. So Jesus told us when he goes back to heaven, he's preparing a place for us, right? We are, his house has many rooms. It's a mansion, right? We're mansion people. That's our destiny is to be. in a room that Jesus has prepared. And so when we prepare a place for our guests, even though our rooms are, they're very clean and comfortable, but they're simple in some ways too. They're not grand and elaborate, but the parlor is, but the guest rooms are a little simpler, but we're preparing a place in a way that Jesus did. And then the other piece is the way that our guests like run into each other. People who have not seen each other in a long time will just happen to be here see their friend coming down the stairs and be like, oh my gosh, I haven't seen you in so long. And they catch up. And that happens really often. And I think we're definitely doing that in heaven too. I mean, one of my favorite stories, we had a guy named Peter in the house who, I think he was living in France at the time. And he was here on a trip. And he and I were talking in our parlor space one evening. And one of our frequent guests, Bill, walks in, who I know pretty well. And Peter we've met before?" And Bill's like, oh, I don't remember. And then it kind of came back to them. They had had lunch 20 years earlier. And Peter said, Bill, you told me about a Bible that has Hebrew notes on one column and English on the other. And he said, I had to go to France to learn French for the mission field. I love Hebrew. I almost gave up on it. But you told me about that Bible, so I've kept up my Hebrew because of you. And I got that edition. I've kept it and used it. So, like, those are the things we're going to do in heaven. I mean, that's just, like, a small taste. But when we get there, we're going to be—it's like when Dorothy wakes up at the end of Wizard of Oz and she looks at all the people and you were there and you were there and you were there, you know. So, people get to do that at Hepzibah House. Remember, they're part of this, like, great cloud of witnesses. And so— I think I think of our housekeepers that way, but also the the like just daily preparation of making it easy to come and being a welcoming face when they arrive. And just all the layers of hospitality that come with a guest house. It's a privilege to just sort of think, OK, like, how can we make this feel like God's hospitality to us? Yeah. Wow. That is so beautiful. Thank you for just articulating that. I think everyone who walks through your doors feels that from how you've prepared the home, from how your staff serves everyone, from how you interact with the guests. But to hear you articulate the heart behind that is really beautiful. So thank you. Thank you for that. So I think our listeners are thinking about how you love old things, about how as a child you went on house tours, and they're sitting there thinking, well, she was born to do this. This is her calling. But this is not what you've always done. I'm just curious, how did this happen? How did you first become connected to Hepzibah House? Yeah, it's kind of a winding road. I felt really called to New York City as a teenager and moved here to go to college. That just felt like a huge provision of God to be able to go to college here. I'm from Indianapolis originally. And I remember being kind of annoyed with God, like, why aren't you telling me what you want me to do when I'm here? You got me here. What am I supposed to do? What am I supposed to do? Yeah. Meanwhile, this couple that I knew growing up moved here to become the directors of Hepzibah House. And it's just kind of a funny coincidence. And I think I was the only person they knew in New York when they moved here. So I knew them when I was a little girl. So we reconnected and they wanted a millennial on their board. You know, like now we would say we want a Gen Z person on our board. So I joined the board in like 2012, maybe a little, maybe a little after, no, 2012. Yeah, 13 or something. And when they ended up moving on, there was kind of an interim period between them leaving and our new directors coming. So I was a stay at home mom at the time. So we just moved the family in here for about three months in 2018 to just keep the ship afloat, make sure everything was going smoothly until the new directors could come. And we just loved it. I mean, I was pregnant with my third kiddo and I was not thinking about it for myself, like this being my job. But we just had the best time, like with the staff and the guests and kind of got a little taste of what it was like. And so, you know, the new directors came. But Andy and I would always say like, oh, you know, if that job ever opens up again, you know, we should look into doing it. And we thought, oh, that'll be great. 20 years down the road or something like after we're done raising our kids or something like that. But it ended up only being like two and a half years because COVID hit. And a couple that came, lots of people, this happened where, you know, COVID hit, everything changed and they decided, you know, we've always wanted to go to seminary. We're just going to do it. We're going to, you know, the house was closed. There were no guests. We had to furlough the staff. It was a tough time. But for them, it was very clarifying. And they're thriving. They're loving it. They are, I think they're done now with seminary. But yeah, I didn't expect the role to open up that soon. But we came in May 2021 as the directors. But we'd kind of had that kind of free preview, I guess, before. So it was an easy decision, to be honest. We are so happy to be here. So one of the things I was wondering about was that sort of full immersion, not just for you, but for your whole family and that sort of integration of the ministry into your very home. What has that been like? I've got to imagine there are some very practical daily challenges that come along with it. Yeah, I think, I mean, like daily challenges. I mean, those stairs. Oh, man, that's a challenge. Lots of people live with like one or two flights of stairs in their house, not six, you know. So we push through that. You get your steps in. Yeah, it keeps us in shape. So that's great. I mean, what I find is a lot of people see what we have where we have like We have very easy access to community. And I think a lot of people see that actually want that for themselves. So that's actually what I hear the most is like, well, how do we how can my family have this more like a little bit more of a public space and private space like, you know, to have both. Like I said, it just kind of feels like a small town during the day. And I'm never lonely. That's for sure. I think our family. Yeah. has just every part of it has thrived. And of course, it's an ongoing decision, right? We have no plans to leave, but if we weren't thriving, our family or kids were struggling or something with it, we would think about doing something else. But I will say, like, I think most homes today are way more private than they used to be 100 years ago, for example. So it used to be you'd live above your store that you ran or like Corrie Ten Boom. Right. She's one of our guests. Right. She came here several times. She lived above her watch shop and people would kind of come in and shop or talk to get their watch repaired and have a cup of coffee with her father, maybe get invited upstairs to the living quarters to have a bowl of soup. And there's just kind of this easy sort of. permeable access to their home that people had through the shop. And I kind of feel like that's what we have is kind of what we what was very common in not too recent history where we lived before you had to get buzzed in past doorman up the elevator down the hall, right? That's how most New Yorkers live. That's great. But I think most people kind of feel like it's just almost too private. Like, how do I get a little bit more of that permeable barrier into our lives. And I think like when we lived in Harlem before, there was kind of stoop culture where people just bring their lawn chairs out, sit on the sidewalk in the summers and just talk to whoever goes by. And just that easy access to community. And it's just, just little interactions, not always like deep conversations, but just the regular interactions with the same people throughout the week and over the course of the year is really rich, especially just as it accumulates over time. But challenges, I mean, every job has times where you just are really weary, I think. you know we try to have boundaries in place so that when there's something that is a bit demanding or outside the norm we're coming from a place of rest and we're able to handle it so like one example is um that we insist all our guests check in by 8 pm so that means everybody's got their keys they can come and go as they please once they've got their keys but I'm not watching the doorbell sitting on the couch waiting for one more person to ring the bell at like 11 p.m., you know. So we are pretty strict about that. But that's just, you know, that means that when there is an emergency, like a snowstorm and all the guests are struggling to get here, we have kind of a well of... like a resource, some resources to kind of get through those like exceptional times, because in the ordinary time, we are like living in a way that's not really draining. Does that answer your question? It does. And my mind is kind of racing, Penny, because all I can think about is how we're living through this loneliness epidemic, especially here in New York City. Yeah. You know, where we decide when we socialize, we go out and we seek it. And then we come in through the doorman and through the lock and through the key to our homes. And I just wonder if what you've described isn't the answer of hospitality, isn't the answer of letting go a little bit of our control over our own borders. isn't the answer. Like I've personally gotten a little taste of it in my own home. My kids, I have young kids like you, I've gotten six and three-year-old. And I mean, I've lost control of the borders of my home. Like there are kids come out and it is the most wonderful and most joyful thing. And it is one of my favorite parts of being a mom is like having a home where like the kids are like, I have playdates there. Like that's where we go. Um, and, uh, anyway, so I'm just, I'm just thinking about everything you're saying and wondering if there's not some gem in there for this generation of people to sort of unlock this loneliness that we're, that we, that we're all sitting in. I mean, I saw an idea recently to just become a regular somewhere, like pick the coffee shop that you always go to, make a point to go every week. Like that's one way to have a little bit of like interaction with the same people throughout the day. And then you start seeing them on the sidewalk and seeing them in the grocery store. And like that's one way to kind of build your sort of social network. There's all kinds of all kinds of living opportunities like being dorm parents at a Christian college or there's boarding schools, too, that look for parents or Christian study center. Like all these different places where they need residential directors, Christian camping and retreats. is another example. So if you're longing for that permeability, where there's just that kind of like, again, we call it a small town feel, but it is kind of that permeability thing. If that's what your heart longs for, and an opportunity like that comes up, like, don't be scared, you should say yes. And we've had to like work out our boundaries in which, you know, what we need to do to be sustainable over time, like sort of trial and error in some ways. Like I used to be pretty loose on the 8 p.m. check-in time. And now I've kind of learned like. that's kind of the number one thing that drives me really crazy. So I'm going to be strict on that and then loose on things that don't drive me as crazy, you know, and that kind of makes sure that we're okay. We can really do this for many years. But one of my favorite parts, when you asked about the impact, like on our family and what it's like, our kids have really taken an interest in like hospitality work, especially my son, Jeffrey, who's nine. He is. loves it when we are putting on an event. He'll like take it upon himself to like set up all the chairs and drag all the furniture around and set up the room himself by himself. Or he gets excited when we're putting on the church barbecue and he's like, I want to help with all the cooking. Like he's just gotten really interested in the logistics of it. And then for all our kids, one of the best parts, and this is something I think anyone can do with intentionality in any church context, is just to make a lot of young adult friends. If you have a joyful home, if you have a happy marriage, you have kids, you have a home where you're really you're there every night, you're cooking anyway, you know, invite young adults in for dinner a lot. I mean, it's really been so special. Our kids have watched everything. young adults that they know meet their spouse and get engaged and get married and like go through that whole process of discerning that. They've like seen that right up front, right up close, I should say. And they've also just seen people who have very, maybe glamorous careers in musical theater or something like that. And they love Jesus even more. It just makes the gospel so plausible to them, to see people just a little younger than their parents, more like big sister or big brother kind of figures who take an interest in them and talk about their lives in front of our kids. And they're just absorbing it all the time. So any Christian with kids can do that. I mean, there's young adults everywhere and a lot of them are lonely or would love a home cooked meal. So... That would be something everybody could do in any kind of living situation because there's young adults in every church. So it's so good for your kids to obviously have Christian peers, but people who are just 10 to 15 years older, it's really powerful. That's right. So what I'm hearing from you is that there's this mutuality in it. You're serving the young adults with your family, and they're serving your family as well. Through everything that you've said, it's been clear that this ministry, that Hepzibah House, has had a huge impact on your entire family very personally. And my next question was going to be about your faith and their faith. How has it impacted your family's faith? Yeah, I think, again, the example of other believers who are just regularly in our home and just living real life near each other is really powerful. I think for me, you know, I have 10 employees and they know everything about me because I live here. So it's not like a typical, like, boss-employee relationship where I can kind of look very put together all the time. And they see all my weaknesses. They see me shuffling around when I'm sick and in my pajamas. They know everything. Our crazy mornings getting the kids out to school. So I have given up worrying about being on display. It's just part of my life. And that's actually been... I think, very spiritually healing for me as a, you know, some people say the eldest daughter in a family is very like performance oriented. Right. And I was totally like that. So eldest daughter right here. Yeah. I mean, it's it's amazing, but it has its moments. Yeah. So. Like I said, my employees know everything about me. The young adults who come through, they see it all. I remember we had a friend over, a young woman who's a good friend, and she was present when I saw lice climbing through my daughter's hair and had a kind of ungodly response. Like it is, you know, it's real. But I think in my faith, it's really just leaning on my identity in the gospel and like taking my rest and strength from him, not my own performance. I mean, I can look perky and put together for an hour at church on Sunday, but not for like 24-7, right? So the authenticity is just inevitable. Yeah. And I hope that it at least models for our guests what we hope they feel when they're here, that they can be their authentic selves in all their strengths and weaknesses and even in their sin. Because Jesus, he's got it. You know, he's the one who takes care of us and sustains us, not our performance. So that's, at least for me, been a big part of it, how the house has helped my faith. I think both of us, we love the church in New York City, and we love the idea of being connected to kind of all of it, not just one local congregation, which we still are as well. But when we were newly married, we used to I remember a conversation we had where we were like, well, if we could live anywhere in the world, where would you want to live? And like if money was no object, you could live anywhere. And we both independently said we want to live. We would live in a brownstone on the on the West 70s somewhere. And I just think it's so crazy that that's actually happened, that we're living on West 75th Street. In the West 70s in New York City. Yeah, my favorite neighborhood. And yet it's so much better than what I was imagining in that conversation because it's not mine. It's God's. And so I don't really have to be like modest about it. And we can just like share it as much as we want. It's not like... I'm really wealthy and I have this massive mansion that's all mine. Like, no, it's God. So I don't have to feel like awkward opening the doors and sharing it and inviting people in or anything like that. It's so much better than I could have imagined. So I think it's built our faith in the sense of like how God takes care of us that way and treats us. I mean, he spoils us. You know, Andy has his own job. He works for himself as an acoustics consultant and loves to work on churches and all kinds of performing arts spaces and stuff. And his work kind of ebbs and flows. And it's been really funny how sometimes he'll like take a month to like do a big renovation project or something at the house, you know, kind of take away his work time, give it up to renovate our laundry room. That was one I remember. Took all January one year. Right after he'd finished, he'd get a big client. It was like, it happened more than once. And it was enough times we were like, okay, like, the Lord sees you and is honoring the sacrifice that, you know, he's made for this ministry. And, you know, the word Hepzibah means God's delight. It's from Isaiah 62. And we really sense that, like, God's favor is on this house. But... also on our guests. And I think Andy's really felt it on him as well, and that God sees him and it's God who's providing for our family through him, providing the clients and providing the work. But also he's being obedient and taking that whole January to do that laundry room, you know, and blessing our housekeeping staff that way. So there's just been so many cool things like that over the years. That is so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that story about Andy. I've met Andy, and he is every bit as wonderful as he sounds in your story. And what I love the most about the story of him kind of sacrificing his work for the work of the house, for the work of God's house, is that in that sacrifice, he... was saying, okay, but it's all God's. It's all God's work. And I think sometimes we can delineate between our work and His. Sometimes you have to for practical reasons. But it's kind of like you said, you know, you said this is God's, like, Hepsbeth House is God's and this ministry is God's. And I think that for all of us, whether we're in hospitality ministry, whether we're in pastoral ministry, whether we're in marketplace ministry, there's something about that heart posture that, that I think we can all learn from. So thank you for sharing that. I think it makes me think of, again, of Corrie Ten Boom and how her life was quite small. I mean, in many ways, I mean, we all know what happened. You know, if you know her story, she ended up becoming a leader in the Dutch resistance during World War II, hid Jewish refugees in her home while they were getting smuggled out of the country, um, And it didn't none of that happened till she was 50. So she was just kind of living this, you know, watchmaker life, very godly woman and caring for her community and just doing all these like daily faithful things. And then God trusted her with a lot, you know, and I reread her book, The Hiding Place. over spring break, and I'm on the beach reading her book and just like getting goosebumps and like just thinking like, oh, I mean, most people love like the second half of the book where it talks about her time in the camps because she was captured and put in camps. And there's so many miracle stories from that season. But the part that really grabbed me was before the war, and how the Lord really blessed her just sort of daily faithfulness. And then suddenly, something really risky, but something that, I mean, it was just not even a question. Of course, she was going to do it. And I just had this goosebump feeling like, oh, man, like I, she has a house, she had a house that in her mind, like, belonged to God, but I have a house that, like, actually does, like, belong totally to God. Like, is there something down the road he'll ask me to do with it that's risky or challenging? And I got to be ready, you know, but also, Just keep doing what we're doing on a daily basis and just so people know they can come when if there's ever a crisis. I mean, God forbid, but such a great example for me. So it's been a long time since I read her book. That's a good reminder to pick it up again. Yeah, it's amazing. Thank you for this amazing conversation, Penny. Like I've been so inspired and so encouraged, and I know our listeners have as well. You've already shared your website where people can look into booking a guest room or into booking space for their ministry. Is there any other place where they can follow along, social media? Yeah, so our Instagram, H House NYC, is where we post anything about our own events. So we do a speaker series for young people. We open new art shows every quarter. So we'll put our events up there that are local so people can join in. So that's the best place to end all our adventures with restoring an old house are in there, too. That's very, it's good for a visual medium like Instagram. Well, we'll make sure all of that is in the show notes so that, you know, our community can follow along with the beautiful ministry that you all are running. Thank you again, Penny. This has been a wonderful conversation and I look forward to keeping up with you.