Women Doing Well - Julie Wilson | Faithly Podcast

Talk to the wife and say, what's important to you about what's happening at our church? Where do you see opportunities for us to grow? Help engage her to share her values and what she's passionate about, because that's where she'll release more too. This is the Faithly Podcast. Hello and welcome to the Faithly Podcast. Today, we're diving into a powerful but often overlooked reality, which is that women are not just participating in generosity, they're shaping it. I'm joined by Julie Wilson. She's the CEO of Women Doing Well, and I can't wait to unpack what this means for the church today. Welcome, Julie. Thank you for having me. You've had such an incredible journey in your career, and I'd love to just start with that. Your story, what were some of the defining moments that brought you to Women Doing Well? Well, it was a long journey. My journey started in a home that we attended church like so many people, but it wasn't really that important from a real follower of Christ way. And so I went to college, majored in journalism, had a desire to change the world that was deep in me, and I thought that would be through the media. So I moved to New York City to pursue my dream job, working for one of the big networks, And I got that job the same week that I attended my very first Bible study. And that's a longer story, but there was a church called Redeemer, Presbyterian in the 90s. And I met a woman who worked at ABC. So, of course, I wanted to know her in case my NBC job didn't work out. And she invited me to Bible study. I thought, oh, my gosh, she's one of those weird people, but she looks so normal. God is real and everything I grew up with was true. I just didn't apply it for myself. And I think that's kind of similar to what conversation we're having today is about with the financial reality. But I essentially came to faith in New York City, one of the most unlikely places, and really felt a nudge to just do what I thought was the Peace Corps missions for a couple of years, you know, take a break from the media. And that turned into my whole career. It has been vocational service. It started at CRU, working with young professional women, helping them know the Bible and, you know, know Jesus. And then I got into the generosity space, which was completely unexpected. I wouldn't call myself a natural generosity person other than with my time because I was in vocational ministry. So I'm not going to all the big fundraisers as a donor. But I grew up with two very generous people and very success oriented. So my dad started a company when he was 40 with a deep desire to be successful. And so I grew up with money tension. And when I think about why I love what I do, I watched what that did to my mom. who could have essentially funded my dad's company with her physical therapy work, but he didn't really want a wife to work, not because he was a chauvinist, but because in the 70s, if your wife could stay home, it meant you were successful. And he so wanted that to be true, and it eventually became true. And as a little girl, I thought when the money starts coming in, all this tension will go away. Yeah. And if you've ever had that story, the tension does not go away because money doesn't actually solve things. It's a tool and it accentuates what's already there. And so I have a real desire for women to be part of the financial conversation so that they can shape relationships. the culture of the family with their spouse if they're married. And if they're not married, then they would feel that agency and ownership and not like they're living a plan B. I just don't think there's a plan B in God's kingdom. Yeah. Yeah, that's so good. Thank you for sharing your story with us. I think it gives me and our listeners a real sense of your heart behind this ministry. And I think it's also important to say that, you know, these are not, this is not work based on a few people's experiences. I think one of the most exciting things about women doing well is the data and the research and the reports that underlie the work that you're doing. And so based on all that research, what can you tell us about how women approach wealth and generosity that might surprise people? Well, yes, it is surprising what we have found in this most recent survey. Just as some context, we did the first and largest research study on women and giving that released in 2012. So this is a long period where no additional research was. on women specifically had been done. We'd been part of a couple of other surveys, but not a full report. And so we were so curious to see what's happened in the 13 years. And what was stunning to us is that we had 1300 women fill out the survey. This is educational research academic research. So nobody's benefiting from this. It's really to just serve the larger community. And we were shocked to see that 95% of the women were contributing at some level to the household income. So that was just shocking because this is a highly generous, engaged woman that we have surveyed, mainly because the partners we worked with were either generosity ministries or service providers like financial advisors, National Christian Foundation, who come alongside donors to help them be more effective. And so pretty much the entire sample was already engaging. So it's a proof text for essentially the work we're doing. If you have an advisor and you're biblically understanding what generosity is, you're more generous and more engaged. So this is really stunning to see that women with equipping do get engaged and their generosity is directly correlated to their contribution to the family finances. So the more a woman was contributing, the more generous that family number was. Wow. So the 95% statistic that you mentioned, that's women that you surveyed are contributing to the household income. Is that a higher percentage than what the average family sees in the United States? You know, I don't have that data, but I'll definitely look into that. My hunch is it's probably pretty similar. What was really surprising, because this is a conservative Christian group of people, 47% of the women that were contributing said they contributed half or more. That means that they're significantly working. Yes. Not just having a side business, which a lot of people do. And it's wonderful to as a woman to be able to juggle contributing to the finances, but also being the main parent, you know, taking care of the kids if you're in that season. So I was super surprised by that 47 percent were half or more. Right. Yeah. because of the nature of the communities that we're working in. That makes complete sense. So you alluded to, you know, women also being main caregivers, women also doing things in the home. It's well known that there's like this sort of invisible responsibility that we carry as women. You know, I certainly feel that as a wife and a mother of three and an entrepreneur, right? What is that invisible responsibility look like specifically when it comes to financial stewardship? Well, we focus in on generosity, but I think that is a good indicator, right? Because that's sort of the final, well, for some families, it's the primary thing that money is used for. But for some, it's kind of like we need to leave room for giving to God. But 90% of the women we surveyed feel confident in giving away the money in their household. You know, I think the older the woman is, there seems to be a correlation between experience and confidence. And honestly, most of them are driving the generosity conversation in their households. So they're the expert, the self-proclaimed expert in their family. And I think this is a common phrase that I hear. He makes the money, I give it away. Wow. I would say probably with these newer statistics, it's probably we're both contributing, but I'm still the primary decision maker when it comes to our generosity. Now, what's different for the church, Alicia, is that they're still not talking to the women. They're, by and large, sitting down with the man, sometimes with a couple. And if they're talking to the couple, they're generally just talking direct to the man. They might ask the woman about, how's the family? What's happening? And there's no ill intent. But from what we're finding, if you're not talking to the woman, you're missing a huge opportunity because, by and large, she's writing the checks. All right. Well, this is really important for church leaders to hear is how they're approaching families, how they're approaching couples. What about how the church is teaching generosity sort of as a subject, like, you know, separate and apart from how they're approaching people, but how they're teaching it from up front? Well, most churches, if they're fortunate to have like a stewardship or generosity pastor, which is a growing trend, generally speaking, they're talking about financial generosity. And so the most recent data, the wealth transfer is enormous. For years, I was saying $84 trillion is changing hands. 70% will go to women. The new number as of 2024 is $184 trillion is changing hands. 70% will be with women. This is game-changing amounts of money. Already, we know for decades that 80% of consumer decisions are made by women. We now can look at our research and tell you that the majority of the giving decisions are being driven by women. This is significant for ministries and churches to understand because she actually doesn't just want to express generosity with money. Our first research study was very clear. She wants to give her time. her expertise, and her money. And the money goes up when time and expertise are engaged. And an interesting point from our second theme of the research of this most recent one experiences is a huge driver of women's generosity increasing and being confident. When she can get her hands on the ministry, she trusts it, and she wants to release more financial generosity as well as time. So these are important things as women are going to control by 2033, 70% of the wealth in this country, the personal wealth. That's just an amazing shift, and I don't think women know Wow, that's super interesting. So I think what you're making pretty clear is the church hasn't really fully recognized the influence that women have in shaping generosity. Do you have any sense of why? Is it they haven't seen the data? Is it there may be more hewed to like more sort of traditional views of women and their role? It's a great question. I got really curious about this a couple years ago. I was asked to speak to a co-ed audience, so I really wanted to have something for the men in the room, because I really think this isn't, I'm a kid of the 70s, an all skate, you know, in the roller skating. Like every one of us has to be out on the floor helping make this transition where women are going to be the primary financial wealth holders. So when I got digging around in my own family, my grandmother was born in 1912. Women in the United States of America couldn't vote until 1920. My mother was born in 1941. She could not generate wealth because you couldn't own property in this country as a woman without a male cosigner until the late 60s. And you couldn't have a credit card in your own name without your dad or your husband or your brother signing for you until 1974. I was six years old. That was 52 years ago. This is so new for women to be in the conversation, to be able to generate wealth by making their own money. They're still marrying very successful men. And now we're inheriting money from the boomer generation and the silent generation. Uh... And unfortunately, divorce rates are still just as high as the secular world. And most states are very, you know, conscious that the woman has helped create that success. And she's generally given half of that money. So they're making it, marrying it, inheriting it, and sometimes divorcing it. So they're coming to money all different ways. This is the killer. Well, I shouldn't use that word. This is the statistic that most of us don't know. The average age of a widow, 59. 59. Wow, still. Even with like, even with like the longevity trends that have that have been happening. That is for the first world countries. So if you were to add in, it's closer to 56 for less resourced communities. So women outlive their spouses by five to seven years. So I don't care whether you're 50 when that happens or 95. Wow. You're going to be the financial decision maker at the end of your life or at some point. And most of us are not ready for those decisions. We don't feel confident. And here's why. Those generational shifts, my mom and my grandmother raised me and my sister. And we don't we didn't have a model. My dad was super like encouraging of my gifts and skills, but I didn't learn about compounding interest till I was 25, even though he was a business owner. And we had resources. I just wasn't taught those things. So women don't even know to ask the questions or to ask to be included. Right. Men, likewise, haven't seen women in the conversation. So nobody's meaning this in a negative way. We just haven't had it modeled. And brain science, trauma and brain science shows that it can take four generations to rewire the brain when there's deeply held beliefs. And so these are some deeply held beliefs that women have. Our place is in the home. Our job is the children. Finances are for the men. There's just it's just in the water. It's not like anybody sets out to say we have to teach this. It just is truth because of the way we've lived. And I just think that that can change and needs to because we see the wealth transfer happening. And what I say is there's a gap between how fast the wealth is transferring and the women's confidence level. Yeah. Yeah. So there's a couple threads that I want to pull out here. Let's spell it out for them, Julie. Like, what are the risks if church leaders today overlook this important reality? I think the risk is when you have a woman who has the majority control of the wealth and she's not confident, she will hold. Women are naturally wired to be nurturers, to care about the whole. You know, you hear all those things like men's brains are file cabinets and women's are spaghetti. There's some truth in that when it comes to the finances. We like a big picture. We like to, you know, we approach generosity holistically, not just financially. So I think when women aren't confident and they don't know that they're not engaging, they hold to not do harm. This is really important because the men will be very frustrated. I'm teaching generosity. Why aren't you getting it? Remember, they don't have the brain wiring that they should be getting it. So they're just checking out in many cases or going, oh, I'm so glad my husband does the money because I don't like numbers. This was me. I mean, journalism major. I avoided math at all costs. My husband doesn't love the numbers either. I learned in the last couple years as I've been engaging more, he felt very alone. He felt like it was his responsibility and it was all on him to do it perfectly. And so now I've been trying to engage more even though I'm uncomfortable. Right. And so we talked about the risk. So like the opportunity is to engage with this woman, right, to make her more one of your respondents of your survey who, you know, they're very comfortable with generosity and they're very comfortable and very confident in their giving. How can church leaders do that? Yeah. I think it just starts with looking around your congregation. Who are the generous women? If there are widows or single women, are you talking to them? Yeah. They're some of the wealthiest congregants you have. Widows are sometimes doubling inheriting from their parents and their spouse. And single women... have a lot of resource because they're really just responsible for themselves. And so that's one set of people to talk to. The other is, as you look at the wealthy families in your congregation, are the women showing up? Get curious. Ask questions like, hey, I know you're stewarding this together. Talk to the wife and say, what's important to you about what's happening at our church? Yeah. Where do you see opportunities for us to grow? Help engage her to share her values and what she's passionate about because that's where she'll release more, too. Our data shows that. Let's see. 90% of women. Nope, that's not true. Sorry. Say that again. 98% of women say that values is the number one driver of their generosity. So ask her, what do you value? What do you care deeply about and want to see change? So you're engaging her and engaging him and then engaging them together. So that's the easiest thing. Just start talking to women, no matter their status. Yeah, that's good. That's good. All right. So I want to pause for a moment because I know our listeners and some of them are cringing right now because I think in the church world and even in church leadership, there can be this discomfort with talking about church. using words like wealthy, right? And talking about generosity in this sort of very direct manner. So for those listeners right now, Julie, can you talk about where you got your confidence to talk about these things that sometimes can be very sensitive? The place that I got it was from the Bible, and it was from my time at Generous Giving, which is a wonderful, deep—they have an experience that takes you deep into biblical generosity without an ask. So it's a wonderful experience for individuals or couples to do. And they point out that 2,600 scriptures exist on money and giving in scripture. So God talks a lot about it. And as a comparison, faith and prayer are under 500 times. Wow. Wow. So if God's talking about money, why aren't we? And I think it's because it's the direct connection to power, right? Money runs things. And there are four core idols that we all struggle with at some level. Power, approval, comfort and control, and money— gives you all those things. So the idols of our country, I believe are money and success. That's one of the big idols that every human that lives in the United States of America comes face to face with, whether you have a little or a lot. And so, yes, it's super uncomfortable. But we have to talk about this because God does. And pastors have to, they have to find other pastors who are teaching about it boldly because your congregants, you have, everybody struggles with money. I was talking to a therapist earlier today who was asking about our work. And she said, you know, I wish people knew that in my therapy sessions, money is the number one driver of conflict and pain. Yes, it's because we don't talk about it. So people don't feel safe. So I think the church is the best place to create those safe conversations because it's where you're going to express your full spiritual formation. But most churches leave the money part out. They just want your money. They don't want to disciple your heart and risk losing your money. Yeah, yeah, that's good. Thank you for sharing that with our listeners. I think you probably just gave some people a little bit of comfort in continuing to be a part of this conversation, right? And I think that's really important. So I want to switch gears for a second and move from talking to the church leader to talking to women. What encouragement would you give as they navigate things like generosity and leadership and the unseen impact that we've talked about? I think women are, by and large, okay being unseen. We get deep joy out of just caring for our people, whether that's our family or our community, our church, our workplaces. Like, we just, we do. And so I don't think it's about sort of becoming a boss lady and getting up in people's faces. I think it's a quiet confidence to just keep bringing it up and a... and a way to interact with donor development folks or church leaders that says, hey, did you know, you know, I've been learning about this wealth transfer and I want our church to really thrive. I want our ministry to not lose donors. Would you be open to a conversation about the wealth transfer and how we can address this? Because it's happening. It's not like optional, like it's happening right now. So I think just elevating the conversation using your influence. I don't think women realize that, by and large, if you come at it from a gracious and bold, it doesn't, you don't have to be weak, but you also don't have to be bossy. It can just be a conversation because it's happening and you care about the organization that you're part of. And I have not had anybody push back, including my husband. I was very nervous about asking him to change financial advisors because I really wanted somebody in my hometown. He's five, well, I said five to seven years, we outlive our spouses and he's seven years older than I am. So it's a good chance I'll be on my own. And I want that person. And it was really uncomfortable, but I approached it. I wasn't demanding. I just said, this is just something for you to think about. We talked about it for a while. It took a couple of years and it took a little bit of a financial hiccup for him to go, okay, I've called. I'm like, what? What? You called the financial advisor. He's like, yep, we got an appointment in a couple of weeks. I'm like, oh, this is the most romantic thing you've done. And I say that genuinely because, you know, in our research, women have two primary barriers to generosity and stewarding wealth. The first is fear of running out. The second fear is not being in alignment with her family. This prevents us from showing up. So if I could just be an encouragement to women is show up. And if you need some confidence, go. I can highly recommend our Women Doing Well pathway, which was designed just for you, designed on the research. You know, there's nothing in there that isn't biblical or based in the research. So it's just a very safe place for you to process what you have and where you are in the conversation with no judgment and no request for you to like give advice. in that moment. It's not a fundraising event. It's a transformational experience so women can find their way to confidence. That's good. Okay, so I want to zero in on this word generosity. I think I know how you're going to answer this based on what you said about time and expertise and other things. But do you think we've reduced generosity too much to just financial giving? Oh, that's a tricky question. Here's why. The direct pathway to your heart, according to Scripture, is your money. Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. So I think if we're too flippant to say that, you know, it's all kinds of generosity matters and we sort of go, so I can just give my time. That's what I like to give. If you're leaving the money piece out, that's the part that's going to get at the deepest part of your heart. So one of my favorite teachers says... If you want to know what you care about, so where your idols lie and what you deeply care about, look at your checkbook and your calendar. Those are your two most important resources, your time and your money. Money is outweighed as far as revealing what matters to you. So on the one hand, I think we can't minimize generosity to just the checkbook. Right. But I think if we leave the checkbook out, especially as women, because everybody expects us to give a lot of time. You are expected. It's an unspoken. You're supposed to volunteer at the PTA. You're supposed to run the nursery. You're supposed to run, you know, there are things that you're supposed to do at church and in community places. And it doesn't involve money. Yeah. And so we're trained as women that that's our most important contribution. It's that and your money. That's the shift that's happening. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so, and I also like how you, what you said about, how you said that, like, when you're trying to cultivate generosity in a community, you said that your reports show that women will give to things that she can get her hands on, right? That everything. If you're trying to cultivate experience, trying to cultivate generosity, rather, you've got to think about the entire spectrum of generosity. Can you talk a little bit more about that? I think this is one of the most fascinating things in this new research is that women say that experiences and volunteering at the nonprofit are what get her generosity to grow, to be bigger financially. So I think of things like vision trips. A lot of ministries host those. That's the type of experience that if you're not sure about a ministry, you're going to go. You're going to see the client and the recipient of that generosity. You're going to see the leader. So your trust of that organization will grow, which will increase your confidence, which will increase your financial donation. So ministries that aren't providing ways for women to get involved and to be part of the mission are just leaving, I mean, to be crass, money on the table. Because that's what she needs to kind of feel trusting and to feel part of it. And if you don't have ways that she can actually give her time, one of the things that is really important for her is to volunteer often before she gives money. So interesting. All right. Well, so I want to ask a question about women of faith versus women not. How does faith uniquely shape how women approach generosity versus, you know, broader culture? Well, I think our faith edge gives us meaning behind the generosity versus obligation. I don't have the secular statistics because you see some pretty amazing giving happening in the secular world where women are set. There's a group actually out of Manhattan called Women Moving Millions. There's some of these billionaire women that have divorced very successful men and they're giving... all of it away by the end of their life. I mean, there's some pretty radical giving happening. I think what our research is showing that is women of faith are motivated by their values and by their faith. And so these two things make it uniquely meaningful to give for women. And I would like, what I always like to say is, women who aren't accessing this part of their spiritual life are missing out on joy. And I don't know anybody who doesn't want to be happier. And I don't know how to convince women because it's such a scary area. But once you let go of the fear, you equip yourself through different tools, you can start having your best life. And I mean that genuinely with Jesus and with yourself and with your family. But it kind of is in that order. And I think women just want to delegate that to the family. You have to engage and figure out who you are, what you want to share, and how you would do that just on your own. Then you can collaborate with your family as a wholehearted woman. And that just takes a bit of a, I mean, that takes time. Yeah, yeah. There is a lot of challenge in what you just said, a lot of challenge, but a lot of encouragement too. Yeah. Okay, I've asked you a lot of questions about your research, but I have the feeling I've just scratched the surface. What haven't I asked you? What else should church leaders know about the research that you're doing? Well, we've only released the first two themes. So we've got another theme coming and then the full report, which is where we'll have more of what I call the, well, I don't call it, research calls cross-tabbing. So we can really delve into the numbers a little more deeply. So there's a lot more to come. But I think the two biggest thing, the two biggest takeaways so far are that women are already engaging, Christian women. who are in ministries and churches that we're affiliated with are already engaging at a very stunning level. Completely opposite to our first research study. Secular women are not engaging that much. So the confidence gap, if we look at secular research from 2024, 84% of women are indicating they don't feel confident. Look at this most recent study, we've got 95% saying they are leading in their households. So this is just a radical faith encouragement. Like our faith and our willingness to show up and engage is changing things. It's just the numbers aren't big enough yet, right? Like we're talking hundreds of thousands of women need to engage and get confident in the next 10 years. So for church leaders and organizational leaders, please help us get this message out to women and please engage yourself so that your organization can really be thriving in these next two decades. The research is supporting that, and I'm really excited to see what the next two releases say. That's a great call to action, Julie. Now, where can people find you? Where can they find this research? Where can they follow along with this great ministry? So we wanted the research to live on its own. So people didn't feel like they had to go to the women doing well website, you know, to get it. Cause we get it. Like we look like a women's ministry. We're not, but you know, so there's a separate URL women, um, wealthandfaith, just written out, .org. And this research study will live there. Our former research study lives there and future research studies. We plan to do this every three to five years to keep the research fresh and to really help organizations and women stay up to date of what the shift looks like. Again, just trying to help in this confidence gap and growing women's generosity intentionally. Perfect. And we'll make sure we throw that in the show notes as well, Julie, so folks can find it and click on it. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise and your heart for this important ministry with us. I think this has been really eye-opening for me, and I'm certain it has been for our listeners as well. It's been a pleasure. I'm just so thankful people are wanting to talk. Perfect. All right. Well, I'll be looking forward to following along in the work that you're doing and hope to continue the conversation. Thank you. Thanks, Julie.