From Producer to Pastor - Dr. Christopher Michael Jones | Faithly Podcast

When I look at the church, I am forever hopeful. And that's because through my travels across the country, I am constantly running into individuals who are in search of the love of God. This is the Faithly Podcast. Welcome to another episode of the Faithly Podcast. I'm your host, Alicia Lee, and I'm very excited today because today we are joined by Dr. Christopher Michael Jones. He is a pastor, a scholar, an author, and one of the most thoughtful voices helping the church to engage culture today. I'm also excited today because we have a very special co-host for today's conversation, Reverend Elliot Johnson. Rev. E.J. and his wife, Lady Hope, are great friends of mine. Rev. E.J. is a special advisor to Faithly, and he was kind enough to introduce Dr. Jones and I, and I couldn't think of anyone better to help guide today's conversation. Dr. Jones, welcome to the Faithly Podcast. Thank you and good afternoon to you, Alicia, and to my dear friend and colleague, Dr. Elliott. It is such a joy to be with the two of you today and to bear witness to the goodness of God in this most esteemed digital platform and to all of the constituents who will be tapping in today in this podcast today. I welcome you, we welcome you, and hope that today's conversation can kind of encourage your hearts with regards to the great things that God is doing in all of our midst. Amen. Thank you, Dr. Jones. Maybe I could kick us off with this first question. Today, you are a pastor and a scholar, but before all of that, you were producing hip-hop and R&B. Can you take us back to that first season of your career? Sure, and thank you for asking, Alicia. Right, so prior to me evolving as a pastoral leader and academician and mentor to doctoral students, I was afforded the opportunity to produce a lot of the household names within the hip-hop and R&B community that many would know today. I was a sophomore in college. I had been given the opportunity to play basketball for the University of Maryland, Baltimore County as a point guard out of New York City. And I didn't clear medical waivers my second year. I had a slight heart murmur. And at the time, universities and colleges were paying close attention to those athletes that may have had any type of heart issue because of a few deaths that were taking place at that time. Hank Gathers comes to mind. And so my second year in college, the coaching staff said, we think that you should take the year off so that you can strengthen yourself for the following year. And while I was in that season of waiting, a dear friend of mine, Ricky Brathwaite, who at the time was the road manager for a famous Def Jam rap group called Third Base, met me at Howard University's Homecoming. And I shared with him that I was in this waiting season and trying to figure out what I would do with the rest of my collegiate journey. And he said to me, he said, Christopher, you've always been musically inclined. Hip hop is really blowing up as an industry. Why not consider cutting your teeth at hip hop? And so to make a long story short, I first put a rap group together. And I got under the mentorship of Demo Wett, who was a famous producer at the time. And we recorded a lot of hours in the studio. And needless to say, the rap group wasn't that good. OK, Chris Large and Craig Glyde, we weren't that good. But what we noticed is that every time we submitted a demo, the A&Rs at the record companies would say, the rap group is not so hot. But who is the person who is producing all of this music? Whoever that person is, we want to get in contact with him because we would like to hire him to produce our artist. And so management said, Christopher, you have a tough decision to make. You can still try to cut your teeth as a hip hop artist. or you can become an established producer. And within a year and a half's time from that conversation, I got the opportunity to produce the rapper Nas, Grammy Award winning Nas. He was the first artist that I was able to produce. And from Nas, from that experience of producing a record called One-on-One on the Street Fighter movie soundtrack, That opened the door to me producing some of the greatest artists of all time, from the likes of the Notorious B.I.G. to Shaquille O'Neal to M.O.P. to Houdini to Mary J. Blige, SWV, Monifa, Toni Braxton. and on and on and on. And it was a great time to be fully immersed in hip hop culture because persons like myself who didn't have access to a lot of opportunity in New York City and who did not have access to some of the social programs that previous generations had, hip hop served as a cultural outlet for us. And for those who were artistically inclined, it allowed for us to speak truth to power through creative mediums, whether it be through rapping or through producing or through b-boying and pop-locking, graffiti, et cetera, et cetera. And so that began my journey as a multi-platinum record producer. I owe all of my career to Nas. And I'm so appreciative of those experiences, which ultimately set the platform and the stage for my radically disruptive convergent experience into the faith. Wow. Well, so I'm an 80s and 90s kid from New Jersey. So all those names are like super, super familiar household names to me. And it's just incredible that you got to work with and shape and be shaped by some of those artists. Really incredible. Can I ask you, what do you think it was about you that caught their eye that said, we're interested in this guy to be a producer? You know, in hindsight, I would say, number one, God gave me a unique ability to produce music that could be consumed on a mass scale. That's a skill. And that is a gift that I believe comes from God. I think secondly, the Lord was already working in my life in such a way that whenever I was afforded the opportunity to step into those spaces where decisions needed to be made, I believe that those A&R reps, along with those artists and those managers, the persons who represented those artists, felt that there was something unique about me, about the energy that I was exuding, and also about the particular sound that I produced. It was a type of warmth and It fostered a sense of community and a sense of belonging. And I think God was already starting to express God's self through me without me even knowing it. Until that great day when the Lord Jesus Christ showed up in my studio, which ultimately changed my life forever. Well, so can you tell us more about that day? I don't think a lot of people get to say that. Jesus Christ showed up in my studio. So tell us about that. So, yes, thank you for asking. So at the time, I had just finished my record with Shaquille O'Neal and the Notorious B.I.G. I just finished producing an artist for Perspective Records. His name is Pudgy. Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis were the owners of that record company, and they were also managing Janet Jackson. Perspective Records asked me if I would consider producing five songs for the next Janet Jackson album. And so while I was finishing up my pre-production for those five songs to be submitted to Prospective Records, I had a visitation experience. It happened around 1201. I was in my studio mixing down the songs, the instrumentals that needed to be submitted to the record company. And I kind of dozed off. And at 1201, I was awakened by a presence. And when I cleared my eyes, looked at the clock, and then looked towards the other side of my studio, I saw this person who sat at the edge of my futon. He had a burgundy robe with a golden sash that crossed his chest. His skin, his eyes, and his hair was like fire. And he just looked at me, and I was so startled by his presence that, All I could ask was, am I going to die? And his response to me was, no, not yet, but will you come and follow me? And then he disappeared. Immediately, I called my father the next morning, and I shared this experience with my father. And he and I know I've never dabbled in drugs or anything of the sort. I've been an athlete my entire life. And my father's response was, Christopher, what you're sharing with me sounds like one of the conversion experiences that we read about in the Bible today. Why don't you schedule a sit-down time with my pastor, Dr. Susan Johnson Cook, and see what she has to say about your experience. And sure enough, I visited Dr. Cook at her church, Bronx Christian Fellowship, which at the time sat on the corner of 161st and Grand Concourse in the Bronx, New York. And I shared the experience with her. And she said to me, Christopher, I believe that you have been called by God. And my recommendation to you is that you should suspend everything that you're doing in the recording industry and prepare yourself for pastoral ministry because the hand of God is on your life. I was so fearful. that if I did not listen to what my pastor said and begin this long journey towards developing as a pastor and as a professor and as a mentor and so on and so on, I was afraid that this individual who showed up in my studio would return and he wouldn't be as happy as he was the first time that I met him. Lo and behold, as I began to read the Bible, I say within the course of six months, who do I see in the book of Revelation? One who's standing amongst the lampstands, and how is he dressed? With a burgundy robe that was draped in blood and a golden sash, and his hair was like bronze fire. And so I immediately began to look at the Bible to try to make sense of what I call a radically disruptive conversion experience. And that led me to Mark chapter 6, particularly verses 45 through 56, where he Jesus tells the disciples to make their way across the sea towards Bethsaida. And you know the scripture, they make it halfway, and an unexpected storm happens that disrupts their trajection towards Bethsaida. Where do they end up on the other side of that storm? In a place they never expected, the village of Gennesaret. And for the remainder of my spiritual journey, I have framed it through the lens of Mark chapter 6. Radical, disruptive storms often show up in our spiritual journeys. And those storms oftentimes lead us into spaces and into connections with people that we would never expect. But it's okay to land in a space or in a vocation or in a church or a job or a relationship that you've never been in before. You know why it's okay? Because Jesus is with you. And as long as people can identify Jesus' presence being with you in those unexpected places that you've been called to, that sets the ground for miracles to happen. And essentially, that's been my faith journey thus far. That is a good word, Dr. Jones, a good word. Indeed, indeed. Amen. I want to pivot here because you actually answered some questions that I had. Sure. So let me just pivot here and let's talk about your voice and finding your voice, Dr. Donks. Talk to us about your journey through education and then how did that help shape you who you are today? Well, my brother, again, it's so good to see you. I love you. My brother, Elliot, is all the things. He knows that. So thank you for asking that question. And that question actually fits with my spiritual formation and spiritual journey. So as I suggested moments ago, my pastor said, stop everything and prepare for pastoral ministry. Well, I had not finished my degree at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County, so I needed to get back into undergraduate school so that I could earn that degree and then begin to matriculate to other graduate institutions, which would help in my training and preparation for ministry. And so I went to Rutgers University to finish my undergraduate degree as a major in And what I love about Rutgers University and the staff in the philosophy department at New Brunswick is that they would often ask us to ask questions. transcendent questions about God and the unknown. And so for the duration of my experience at Rutgers, when I wasn't studying African American history, which was my minor, I was asking questions about why does evil exist in the world, right? Why does society have to suffer in the way that it does? What does the transcendent have to say about the common experiences that are attached to the human condition? Is there something that the divine has to say about? about how we can form and shape community and partner within that context to be of better service to one another. Those were the kinds of questions that I was asking at Rutgers University. And then when I matriculated to Princeton Theological Seminary, that became the fertile ground where I began to develop a language in a response to the questions that I was asking at Rutgers University. So it was at Princeton, studying under the great professors like Cleophas LaRue and Mark Lewis Taylor and Dr. Hansen, just so many great professors, Dr. Blunt, we began to wrestle with God's response to the evil that exists in the world. And we began to think about ways in which we could preach and teach and model what it means to be a true disciple of Jesus Christ. Rather than expecting the world to come to the church, it was in Princeton that I began to think about how can I formulate a message of hope and also embody it in such a relevant way that when I go out into the world, I'm going to be a true disciple of Jesus Christ. I can offer a word of compassion, a word of healing, a word of inspiration that can speak to the ills and the struggles of those who have been marginalized or pushed to the margins of society and who are in search of a relationship with God, in a search of their own sense of purpose and belonging. After Princeton, and God is all in this, I then get the opportunity to study at Oxford University, Christ Church, with the Bishop of Her Majesty's Prisons, Dr. Peter Selby. And what I learned at Oxford is that the church should never stay within the full walls of the brick-and-mortar institution. So Dr. Peter Selby taught me, no, your church, your congregation, it's not just the building where you gather formally for worship. Your church is also the hospital. Your church is also the local prison. Your church is the grocery store. Your church is the elementary school, the middle school, the high school in your community. Your church is the local department of labor and so on and so on. And so I came back from Oxford with this energized sense that, no, God is calling me to bring the gospel to life in my local context, outside the four walls of the church. And so it is because of my experience in institutions like Rutgers and Princeton and Oxford, that I began to, along with my team, think about ways in which we can show up in an unorthodox fashion in our local context to meet the needs of those who are in search of God's love. For instance, one day we decided to rent out the Marriott Hotel. And what did we do? We went to a local shelter that housed battered women, and we purchased rooms for the entire shelter. And then we brought in vendors from all over the region, and we brought in social workers from all over the region, and we clothed them, and we fed them. And that was a way in which we could bring the love of Christ together. to the community rather than expect for the community to come to the brick-and-mortar church. And finally, when I finished my doctoral studies at Memphis Theological Seminary, it was in that space where I began to rethink what it means to preach pastoral care through the African-American experience. And so my church was growing so fast, I couldn't hire people quick enough to help me administer pastoral care to the congregation. And so I created a DMIN project, which allowed for me to formulate community a language, a pastoral care preaching series, and resources that help me to administer the care and love to this growing congregation that's now comprised of unchurched working professionals who are looking for a way to hear God differently and yet have it resonate the way that the gospel Man, that is so outstanding. That so much reminds me of my doctoral studies and maintaining the integrity of the kingdom outside the walls of the church and the language that you and I use a lot, kingdompreneurship, right? Yes, sir. I love it. Amen. And make sure you trade that, brother, because that's going to show up on a T-shirt and you're going to get upset. No, no, no. I won't get upset. I'll just say. Trade market, brother. Yeah. Okay. So, you know, so now, you know, okay, you've shared how this has helped shape and mold you to where you are. But now you serve as a pastor, academic professor, you've mentored, you've authored. You know, Dr. Jones, all these roles, which one of these seem the most natural to you? Or how they just become part of the same calling in your life? I think all of those expressions of faith come into play when I think about my sense of calling to the spaces where God sends me. At times, it is important for me to show up as a pastor. At times, it is important for me to show up as a professor. At times, it is important for me to show up as a mentor. And I think the scriptures in Jesus' model of ministry teaches us that as disciples, we have to be discerning enough and to be prayerful enough to know what, Which version of us needs to show up to ensure, one, that we're listening emphatically, listening with compassion, and that we also are offering the type of support that the individual needs or the occasion calls for. And I just love being all of those things simultaneously. I am a firm believer that we all have multiple gifts. and that those gifts should be nurtured to the best of our ability, and that those gifts fit different contexts and different situations and opportunities, divine kingdom opportunities that we can share, right, to participate in the ushering in of God's healing presence, which leads to both spiritual healing, economic and social transformation. So I love being all the... Amen. Amen. You found a way to serve both the academy as well as the local church. Yes. And tell us why that is just so important. I think it is important because I think The academy and the church should always be in conversation with one another. And oftentimes, speaking from the vantage point of the academy, we can be so research-oriented that we can be so research-oriented. that we forget that the practitioner offers value and experiences that someone who is solely dependent upon research perhaps is unable to offer. And the flip side of that is you can be so immersed in your work as a practitioner that that you're not afforded the opportunity to think in a more transcendent space, right? Or you don't allow yourself to test your assumptions and your premonitions. That's why we need analytical data and analysis, but we also need that real lived experience to test out what we're formulating in those academic spaces. And last but not least, you know, Dr. LaRue would always teach his students at Princeton that the cultivation of the mind, that's spiritual stewardship. And so if we're going to be faithful as preachers and teachers and kingdom entrepreneurs and cultural shifters and transformers, we should be investing in the cultivating of our mind as much as we are investing in the cultivation of our professional skill, if that makes sense. Amen. It does. That is really, really good, Dr. Jones, and it's actually a great segue into my next question. You know, before we move off the topic of education and academy and sort of doing all this, what really strikes me in your story is that if I had received a word from the Lord about going into pastoral ministry, I would have been really anxious to jump right into it. I don't know that I would have had sort of the courage and the patience to do the first part of what he asked you, which was to prepare, right? But in that preparation, in that education, you really, you felt out the contours of your calling, right? You learn more about it. And I guess my question for you is this, and I'm asking this on behalf of those young, aspiring pastors. who are trying to figure out their journey. How did you know to pause and to say, I've got to prepare, I've got to get educated, I've got to get my degrees? Great mentorship. If I did not have great mentorship, first through Dr. Susan Johnson Cook, and then mentorship through the great leaders that she brought into the church, like Samuel DeWitt Proctor, Bishop John Bryant, I mean, Wyatt T. Walker, real giants of the faith, Johnny Youngblood, and they would all say the same thing. You have to prepare. If you want to be serious about your calling, You have to take the time to invest in yourself. You've got to go through a wilderness season and allow for God to transform and to reshape and to empower you in such a way that when it is time for you to actually engage in the work that God is calling you to, you will have something of substance to say. And I remember my mentors saying all the time, there's nothing worse than an ill-informed, unprepared preacher. And they would say to me, if you're going to be a part of our circle, if you're going to be a part of our intellectual black tradition, you've got to prepare. We will not accept anything less from you. Also, let me say this. My calling... was so disruptive. Just imagine being 20, 21 years old and you're making up to $40,000 a month. Why would I ever want to walk away from an industry that was so lucrative that allowed for me to enjoy the material possessions and all of the fame that comes with all of that? Why would someone walk away? My professor Rutgers, Dr. Malin, he gave me the answer. He said, you want to know why the apostles were willing to put their lives on the line after bearing witness to Jesus' crucifixion? You want to know why they would sign up for something like that? Why would somebody sign up for that type of a death? His response was, because they saw something. They saw something in the resurrection of Jesus that compelled them to put their very lives on the line. I saw something that day in my studio, and it was so compelling. I felt as though I had no other choice but to prepare for this one who was so majestic and radiant and who extended an invitation that I felt I could not deny or reject. Wow. Wow. So, Jesus shows up in your studio, and you have now, you know, spent—one of your passions, your dream, is to continue to use that studio, right, to use hip-hop as a way of teaching theology. Now, for someone who's hearing that for the first time, can you please explain what that means? Yes. Sure. So I love to use hip hop as a pedagogy to educate and to teach about faith. And I'll tell you why. Initially, hip-hop emerged as a cultural expression in New York City in the early 70s as a response to the poverty and to all of the social and structural sins that existed at the time. So many young people of color and also young people who are poor, no matter their color, were shut out from having access or an opportunity to enjoy the finer things of life. They were looking for another way to express themselves and to, you know, fulfill the sense of belonging. So if these young people could not turn to social programs to express themselves, if these young people could not find a medium to speak truth to power, then. Well, then how would they do so? Well, it just so happens that hip hop emerged as the platform that young people would use to bring redress to their struggles. So essentially, when we hear hip hop, A song like The Message, which was penned by Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, is like a jungle sometimes. It makes me wonder how I keep from going under. Ha ha ha ha ha. What are they responding to? They are offering a prophetic response to the decay that they are experiencing in the land. This is the same prophetic lens that the prophets like Jeremiah and Isaiah Even Jesus spoke truth to power. And it just so happens that this cultural phenomenon emerged in New York City and began to spread all over the world. as a platform that young people could use to say, hey, we're suffering from police brutality. Hey, we're suffering from a lack of education. Hey, our families are fragmenting. Hey, we're suffering from crack cocaine and heroin and fentanyl. Hey, society is imploding. Hey, we're feeling as though we're being left behind. Hey, even the church isn't listening to us. And even when they try to speak to us, they're using a language that they don't understand. And so I feel as though God has called me and others like me to kind of create a new bridge between the hip hop community and the church. which would allow for both communities to become one in community and to also to further their pursuit of the transcendent, the Most High God, our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Amen. Amen. Amen. So, Dr. Jones, you know, some people see this hip-hop culture as maybe something the church should resist. while others want to embrace it and everything else associated with it. How do you think faithfully about engaging hip culture with the church without compromising the gospel, integrity, and messaging? Yeah, so what I try to do, a part of my work is, is creating space for those who identify with the church and those who identify with hip-hop culture to speak to one another and to learn that they have much more in common than they actually know. For instance... When you go to a service on Sunday, what do you have? You have the preacher. Well, when you go to a hip hop cypher, what do you have? The emcee. Amen. When you go to church, you have the worship host. When you go to the hip hop cypher, you have the DJ. When you go to church, you have the liturgical dancers. When you go to a hip hop cypher, what do you have? You have b-boys and pop lockers. When you go to church, you have scribes and scholars. What do you have in hip hop? You have the same type of hip hop historians and you have those who are engaged in the arts of graffiti and the like. Both communities are in search of purpose and a sense of belonging. Both communities actually share so much. They have so much in common together. My task and others like me is to kind of find that middle ground so that we can see that we're both in search of the same thing. Now, where I lean as a Christian and what I say to the hip hop community is that I think the church has the best message in town. I think the message of the gospel is a message of hope that the world needs. But I have to translate that message in such a way that it resonates with the hip-hop community. So that message has to come with love, not condemnation. That message has to be articulated on the ground rather than from up high. That message has to be shaped in such a way that it identifies with their common experience rather than judge the experience of those who identify with that community and ultimately suggest that God is concerned about you. God understands your hurt and your pain. God sees how you struggle with the fragmentation that you have to endure from day to day. And guess what? God has offered a solution. And his name is Jesus. He wants to be your friend. And if you would take the time to converse with him, he can fill the dimensions of your heart in a way that no one else can. Amen. Amen. So when you think about, you know, this, you talked about the Hip Hop Museum, right? But there's also a relationship with the technology firm that the hip hop museum is warm. Tell us some more about that and then tell us how that's helping young people think about faith and entrepreneurship. And then tell us what excites you the most about all that. Right. So I'll have to be measured in my response because there's some things that can't be revealed yet. But for those of you who are curious, so the Hip Hop Museum is under construction. It's almost complete. It is a 55,000 square foot facility. which will actually archive, house, and record hip-hop's history all over the world, from its origin to its present state. As you well know, oftentimes societies implode because of a lack of institutional memory. I contend that's one of the reasons why we're going through what we're going through in America today, because we're losing our institutional memory. And so what the Hip Hop Museum will do is that it will house these artifacts and record the stories and offer a witness to why hip hop came into existence and how hip hop can be used as a pedagogy to educate and to empower younger generations all over the world. I get the opportunity to play a part in that educational process. I won't announce the title at the moment because finalizing what my role will be as a servant to that institution and to support the vision of Rocky, who is an amazing leader and CEO and founder of the Hip Hop Museum. But. Microsoft, so this gives an example of how hip hop can be used in different spaces to empower young people. So Microsoft is bringing me in to the Microsoft Garage next Monday, July 20th, in partnership with the New York Division of Youth Services. And I get the opportunity to talk to ninth and 10th graders about how you can use the tenets of hip hop to create and nurture a business plan. So we're calling this The Flip. And I'll use one of the records that I produced with Shaq and Biggie to talk about how the concept, can't stop, won't stop, emerged into the ABG global brand. which is a brand that houses multiple entities all over the world, to suggest that hip-hop as a pedagogy can be used along with the other academic disciplines to reach segments of the population who feel looked over or misunderstood in those educational spaces. So that's one of the dynamic things that I'll be doing at the Hip Hop Museum. You'll hear more about it in the not too distant future. It is an amazing institution. And I think that it will change a lot of lives. Amen. Wow. Is that only for ninth and 10th graders or can women in their 40s maybe pop by and learn a thing or two from you? Of course, this pilot. Yes, of course, this pilot program will be specifically for that age group. But yes, it'll be my responsibility to build out different programs. Yeah. certification programs for educators and for entrepreneurs who would like to perhaps consider hip-hop as a possible pedagogy that they can incorporate to their own entrepreneurial or educational endeavors, if that makes sense. Absolutely. Wow. What an incredible way the Lord is using your voice and all the different roles that you play. That is so cool. I'd love to shift the conversation now into the Big C Church. Dr. Jones, in our last conversation, you used a phrase that really stayed with me. You said, you want to reimagine what it means to be the church. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Yes. I want to go back to Mark chapter 6, when after feeding the 5,000, Jesus said to the disciples, okay, I want you guys to go into the boat and I want you to make your way towards Bethsaida. Now, if we believe that God is omniscient, omnipotent, if we believe that Jesus, the Son of God, is all-knowing, then we have to assume that Jesus knew that this storm was coming. Well, why would Jesus instruct disciples to cross a sea knowing that their lives will be shifted halfway through? through that journey? Well, I think the Bible bears witness to the reason why, which is the answer to your question. They get disrupted in the middle of the sea. What does Jesus do? And this is the work of the church, by the way. The first thing that Jesus does is he gets into the boat with the disciples. You really can't engage in the work of transformation without first getting into the spaces where people are afraid and hurting. What does Jesus then do? He offers a word of hope, right? He says to the disciples, do not fear. I am with you. And then lastly, what does Jesus do? He doesn't get out of the boat while they're in duress. He journeys with them to the other side. And what happens? They end up in Gennesaret. Now I've been to Israel. I've visited all of these villages. Gennesaret is maybe 30 miles east of Bethsaida. So I know exactly where this was. And the Bible says that when they get out of the boat, Once the people saw Jesus, that is when the people came. And that is the answer to your question. I contend that when the church gets out of the way, when we allow our protocols and our procedures and our traditions and our personal preferences to get out of the way, when we allow our assumptions and our ill-informed premonitions to get out of the way, right? When we allow for the things that we want to get out of the way and allow for people to see Jesus, that is when the broken come running, not towards us, but towards where the presence of Jesus can be found. And so when I mentor my doctoral students, when I speak to seminarians, when I speak to leaders of churches, my first question is, if people were to come to your ministry, would they see Jesus? Or would they only see you? Because as you well know, you and I don't have the power to heal. We don't have the power to save, nor do we have the power to transform, but Jesus does. Amen. And so I contend the model of the church, the Big C Church, should offer a deconstruction and a deprogramming of our traditions that don't create opportunities for the presence of Jesus to show up. I still believe that Jesus is the Savior of the world. But the question is, are we allowing the masses to see Jesus? Not our personal opinions, not our personal preferences or desires, not our power trips, right? Ultimately, we are called to get out of the way, to talk about this wonderful Savior. especially in those spaces where we feel as though the only reason why we're in that space is because God sent us there. If we would be like the disciples who had hard opinions about how Jesus should present themselves. Prior to the feeding of the 5,000, the disciples tried to tell Jesus how he should do ministry. So what does Jesus say? Okay, I'm going to send a storm your way. Right. I'm going to let this storm change your opinion and your trajection about who I am. They get the message because when they get to the other side, they say, Jesus, it's all about you. And when the people saw Jesus, that's when they came running. Amen. Amen. So, you know, you know, the importance of about creating safe spaces for conversation and dialogue. I know in seminary, I mean, that's kind of like what the whole environment was for us, that safe place for us to have audits, open conversations. So why do you think that these safe spaces are so needed right now today? And where does the church play a role in that? I think if the church is going to model the ministry that Jesus demonstrated for the disciples, The church will be intentional about creating spaces where people can speak from their place of vulnerability, from their place of hurt, from their place of suffering, and the church should be willing to respond in the way that Jesus responds. So when you look at all four Gospels, We don't see a judgmental Jesus that is condemning people to the pit because he's in disagreement with their lifestyle choices or he's in disagreement with their perspectives about religion and God. No, Jesus embraces everybody and he does so with love and he communicates the truth. And that is where we need to have courage. We need to have clarity about our doctrine and our convictions, which are rooted in the word of God. And when we speak that truth, we should be able to speak it in love. I was just reading a passage today where Jesus, the Bible says, try to minister in his hometown. And he couldn't do it. And you know the verse, a prophet is not without honor except in his own town and amongst his own family and amongst his own community. And did Jesus condemn those people for not embracing him in his full totality? No. No. No, he administered the love of God as much as he could and as much as people would allow him to. And then he moved on. So I contend that when the church engages in the work of creating a safe space for people to be heard, the church should do so with great intentionality, not with the purpose of condemning people, but with the purpose of communicating restorative hope. People are hurting. Why do we have time to condemn people so much when people are in search of love? They are in search of renewal. They are in search of hope. It's hard enough to minister hope to the hurting. Why should we exhaust ourselves in only condemning and excluding when God called us to do the exact opposite as followers of Jesus Christ? That's good. That's good. Dr. Jones, as you've been talking about the church, as you've been talking about church leaders and safe spaces, I just can't help but feel like you have a message for church leaders today that many of our listeners needed to hear what you had to say today. So since we're coming up on time, I'd like to leave it on this note. I'd like to leave it with this final question, which is, when you look at the church today, what gives you the greatest hope Yes. Thank you for that wonderful question. And again, Alicia and my brother, Dr. Elliot, thank you so much for sharing this time with me. When I look at the church, I am forever hopeful. And that's because through my travels across the country, I am constantly running into individuals who are in search of the love of God. And I am confident in knowing that the church is positioned to offer the love of God in a way that no other community can. And with that understanding in mind, I would like to share with those leaders who are tapping in today that my prayer is that you would remain encouraged. Yes, you perhaps may be enduring an unexpected storm that has rocked your boat, just like the disciples in Mark 6. Yes, perhaps you may be in a season where you find yourself in a space or in a church or in a ministry or in commitments that you never expected. You feel unprepared. You're questioning, God, why would you send me this way? I've never been here before. I don't know these people. I don't have the experience to meet the needs of this specific context. who also experienced an unexpected storm in Mark 6. Remember that Jesus was with them, and Jesus is also with you. Remember that Jesus spoke a word of hope, and it's the same word of hope that Jesus speaks to all of us today. We need not fear. Why not? Because God is with us. And finally, no matter how intense our storm, the good news is that no matter where we land, that is the place where Jesus called us to be. Our job is to get out of the way, love the people, encourage the people, lead with integrity, Allow for God to strengthen your character. Preach and teach and embody this love that can only be experienced through our relationship with Jesus Christ and allow for the Holy Spirit to do the work that only the Holy Spirit can. I'm a living witness that disruptive storms can serve a purpose in our lives, provided that we allow for the Lord Jesus to show up. and do the work that Jesus desires to do. So be encouraged. I'm praying for you and ask that you continue to pray for me and Alicia and Dr. Elliot. And I am convinced that the church's best work is yet to come, but we got to get out the way and let Jesus be Lord. Amen. Amen. Amen. That's my word. I'm sticking to it. Amen. I think we're going to title this episode, Get Out the Way. Get out the way. I love it. I love it. Thank you, Dr. Jones, for sharing your story, sharing your wisdom, sharing your experience, sharing what the Lord has placed on your heart. I know I've been blessed by it. I know our audience has been blessed by it. You are indeed just such a breath of fresh air. It is great to talk to you. And Rev EJ, my friend, thank you for co-hosting today's episode with me. My brother. Another mother. Amen. Well, as you know, I'm here to serve and to be a servant. Thank you both. I look forward to our next conversation. Thank you both. Thank you. Thank you so much. God bless you with love and happiness. We'll talk. Bless you. Okay. Bye-bye.